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On January 05 2011 02:39 SilverPotato wrote:
I think just having the reaction time and accuracy learned from other games is enough to get a person into low/mid diamond. The real trick is learning the skills that aren't universal to video games, or more specifically things only needed for SC2. That's where the players in high/top diamond start to separate from the rest of the pack.
Yeah, even in diamond there is a huge difference in skill. Reaction time from sports, strategy from chess, keyboard clicks from wow, etc. The hardest part for me was the mouse interface since I only play FPS games on the console, but I played a bunch of LoL and that helped me a ton.
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learn how to ... and you're easily diamond. but you're still bad as fuck,
... = 4gate, 6pool, 3rax and so on
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After 600 games, I'm 2300 diamond. I have never played an RTS before, and I wouldn't say it came naturally. Alot of the fun throughout the process of playing the game was developing my skills to rise out of Bronze and up the chain, and it was hugely satisfying. I still feel like I know very little, and look forward to what comes ahead.
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On January 05 2011 01:51 Leviwtf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 01:16 Myles wrote:
Like I said, I agree that practice is most important, but if you really think there aren't physical things that makes a difference we'll just have to disagree on that. Everyone seems to accept there are inherent physical differences between men and women. There's also physical differences(generally less so) between individual people of the same sex. They can be overcome through dedicated practice, but I know it pissed me off in high school that I deliberately worked out 5 days a week and ate healthy and still couldn't get a six pack, while others guys only ever played sports a few hours a week and at whatever they wanted and were still more cut than I was. There are physical things that make a small difference at the initial skill level, but in the long run, at the top of the skill level (professional), those initial genetic advantages don't matter and don't affect a person's chances of reaching that skill level. Height is the only exception as it greatly impacts a person's chances of becoming a professional nba player or a girl becoming a professional gymnast. I'm also saying this not as my opinion but as what the data from numerous studies show. In regards to the six pack, that is something completely else as it is not a game, skill, or sport, its an appearance thing. You probably had much stronger abs but your schoolmates might of also had a higher metabolic rate which means they have a lower body fat percentage and a higher chance of having a six pack.
haha i hated that. I played soccer 5 days a week for 3 hours a day, did hundreds of crunches a day and never got a 6 pack. I only weighed like 165 at 5'10" (which is tiny for me considering i have a large body frame).
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On January 05 2011 02:50 FenneK wrote:
After 600 games, I'm 2300 diamond. I have never played an RTS before, and I wouldn't say it came naturally. Alot of the fun throughout the process of playing the game was developing my skills to rise out of Bronze and up the chain, and it was hugely satisfying. I still feel like I know very little, and look forward to what comes ahead.
I just finished my 100th game and I don't know anything about this game even though i'm diamond. There's a saying that goes something like "The more you know, the more you realize you don't really know anything". Pro players are probably more aware of their own weakness's than anyone else.
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I got into diamond after around 50 games. The hardest part for me was getting my fingers to do what my brain already knew to do. Before I ever started playing SC2 I had probably watched 30-40 hours of streams and read about build orders and "counters" etc. I still watch streams more than I actually play the game because it is really exhausting for me to play. When I do play, however, I pair between 2 and 2.4K diamond and I've got a ~84-52 record
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On January 04 2011 17:32 piskooooo wrote:
They probably got Diamond from winning 4-5 of their placement matches.
They probably just 4gate, cannon rush, 6pool, 12drone, 2 rax, etc.
They probably got it when the game was new.
They probably lied.
Naw, It didn't take me long to get into platinum in beta, and since then I haven't dropped below the top 7-8k players except during inactivity. This is off a couple months of brood war on ICCUP getting my ass kicked 3/4 of the time. If you are an intelligent, analytical person with a strategic mind it doesn't take long to get to high diamond with some practice.
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differs from person to person .. some of the really op tier players are prbably born for these sorts of games, but a lot are simply learning fast and with the right methodes... so marineking said that he wasn´t that goog in sc1 but in sc2 he could catch up cause he had the same amount of time to prcatise like the others. so it also plays a role how fast you are learning from your training.
in the beta i played first copper, than in phase 2 silver and now i won 4/5 placement matches, beeing now platin.
but i watched more reaplays (castet ones) than playing, because playing with laggs from 50 food suxx xD... so i learned the games wathing replays.
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Not ONLY rts experience helps with SC2, imo. My years of playing CSS/Bf2/etc makes it so that from day one I was using the minimap subconsciously, a skill I take for granted today.
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I think if you're in silver or gold after hundreds of games, and you've been actively reading and thinking about the "right" way to play and improve, then you probably have an inherent difficulty with thinking on your feet and remembering things and keeping your wits about you while under pressure.
There seems to be two sides to this. On the one hand, if you're just trying to get better, you might as well pretend there's no such thing as raw talent, because all it'll do is cause you to doubt yourself when you lose.
On the other hand, people who are up in the 2500+ diamond range should probably stop and consider the influence of natural talent before they start talking about how BAFFLING it is that ANYONE could not be in diamond. I'm in gold and I've seen lots of replays where I can clearly see that people are playing stupidly in diamond, even at the highest levels (because literally everyone has stupid losses like that even if they normally play really well). That's just because it's easy to see mistakes in replays, not because I have some kind of awesome starcraft insight.
It's not necessarily incorrect to say that it's easy to get to diamond, but it is unconstructive and it can definitely lower people's motivation to play and improve if they aren't there yet. RTS games are like public speaking for a lot of people, or like shy guys trying to talk to girls, they lose some or a lot of their basic human competence due to nervousness. Some people don't have that problem, but that doesn't make it ok for them to be dicks about it.
To be a little bit of a dick though, I will say that I've noticed a bit of a correlation between having hundreds of games in bronze and the serious critical thinking problems, like thinking that queuing units is a good idea, or persistently arguing strategy and balance with top diamond players who've placed in tournaments and walking away thinking that fast carriers is totally the go-to strat in PvT and it's only a matter of time before all the pros are doing it.
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I learn by watching my replays. By 50-60 games, I was promoted to diamond without even knowing single build (Yes I am not shitting you, didn't 4 gate, just player like it was RTS and responded to whatever people did)
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On January 05 2011 04:05 LesPhoques wrote:
I learn by watching my replays. By 50-60 games, I was promoted to diamond without even knowing single build (Yes I am not shitting you, didn't 4 gate, just player like it was RTS and responded to whatever people did)
Lots of people have no idea what it means to "play like it's an RTS" though.
On January 05 2011 03:13 Twistacles wrote:
Not ONLY rts experience helps with SC2, imo. My years of playing CSS/Bf2/etc makes it so that from day one I was using the minimap subconsciously, a skill I take for granted today.
I forgot about this. Some people have more of a difficult to describe quality called "awareness". It's like, some people are inherently better at awareness than others, but pretty much anyone can learn it if they really want to. A lot of it has to do with looking at the minimap and making use of other information available to you, but it's more complicated than that because it also relates to how good you are at making educated guesses to fill the gaps in the information you have.
Maybe in the end, the hardest part of Starcraft is just admitting to yourself that you don't give enough of a shit to play it competitively.
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On January 05 2011 04:09 adius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 04:05 LesPhoques wrote:
I learn by watching my replays. By 50-60 games, I was promoted to diamond without even knowing single build (Yes I am not shitting you, didn't 4 gate, just player like it was RTS and responded to whatever people did) Lots of people have no idea what it means to "play like it's an RTS" though.
A lot of people don't understand strategy games at all. They just aren't wired for that kind of thinking. A bunch of other people are really bad at controlling a mouse and keyboard which is simply a lack of playing other similar games. I'm kinda motivated to write a strategy guide for games to help people understand basic strategy game ideas.
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I never really played any RTS competitively or seriously. Sure I owned SC1 and WC3 but I was far from good at either and never played iCCup SC1. With that said, I was Diamond in beta and of course Diamond retail after maybe only 400 games played total today.
What really helped me is I just never gave a shit about what my opponent was doing. SC2 is far more strategy focused than SC1 but it is still all about your mechanics. Even some of the top players (GSL caliber) make very questionable decisions based upon the information they're given. The reason they're good is because their mechanics are tip top. So basically put the entire onus on yourself. Don't worry about what unit your making, just make units. Also stick to one build for each MU and refine, refine, refine. You're not a tournament player, you're a ladder player. Realistically you only need 1 build per MU.
So basically: hotkeys, macro, expansion timing, refined build. It's the gateway to Diamond. Maybe even the warpgate.
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BW took about 6 months to get down for me, without any outside sources (no replay, no proleague).
what escalated my game play in BW was watching pro players play. i mean, i never thought of sending vultures through mineral lines with mine trick, dropship/tank micro, mutastack, etc. once i saw those, i mimicked, figured out other related moves and then i became pretty damn good back in 2002.
then came sc2, any micro is standard for any players. i've seen silver players with superb micro.
my friend jumped from silver to platinum in just one day after watching me play. he tells me he was able to understand many things after watching me play in person, not a replay or youtube. maybe you can check out some POV of some pros and see what you they do different. i don't have crazy fast APM so i'm sure that isnt part of why my friend was able to improve.
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If I could give any advice to sub mid-high diamond players, is to just get a good opener against each race. I don't care if you want to be creative and whatnot; you can do whatever you want, as long as your opener is solid.
After that, stop thinking of diamond as a 'goal.' Diamond is just the beginning, like hitting max lvl in WoW. You get there because it is inevitable, not because it is a destination.
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On January 05 2011 01:51 Leviwtf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 01:16 Myles wrote:
Like I said, I agree that practice is most important, but if you really think there aren't physical things that makes a difference we'll just have to disagree on that. Everyone seems to accept there are inherent physical differences between men and women. There's also physical differences(generally less so) between individual people of the same sex. They can be overcome through dedicated practice, but I know it pissed me off in high school that I deliberately worked out 5 days a week and ate healthy and still couldn't get a six pack, while others guys only ever played sports a few hours a week and at whatever they wanted and were still more cut than I was. There are physical things that make a small difference at the initial skill level, but in the long run, at the top of the skill level (professional), those initial genetic advantages don't matter and don't affect a person's chances of reaching that skill level. Height is the only exception as it greatly impacts a person's chances of becoming a professional nba player or a girl becoming a professional gymnast. I'm also saying this not as my opinion but as what the data from numerous studies show. In regards to the six pack, that is something completely else as it is not a game, skill, or sport, its an appearance thing. You probably had much stronger abs but your schoolmates might of also had a higher metabolic rate which means they have a lower body fat percentage and a higher chance of having a six pack.
So what you're saying is that a child with genetic tendency of obesity (Both parents are obese as well as grandparents) can become just as good as lets say someone who was born in a famility where both parents are top athletic at say professional gymnastics IF they put the exact same effective practice in to it (Lets say they're being coached by the best gymnastic coacher and are given the same routines)?
I must say Im having a hard time believing you
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On January 05 2011 04:25 jinorazi wrote:
BW took about 6 months to get down for me, without any outside sources (no replay, no proleague).
what escalated my game play in BW was watching pro players play. i mean, i never thought of sending vultures through mineral lines with mine trick, dropship/tank micro, mutastack, etc. once i saw those, i mimicked, figured out other related moves and then i became pretty damn good back in 2002.
then came sc2, any micro is standard for any players. i've seen silver players with superb micro.
my friend jumped from silver to platinum in just one day after watching me play. he tells me he was able to understand many things after watching me play in person, not a replay or youtube. maybe you can check out some POV of some pros and see what you they do different. i don't have crazy fast APM so i'm sure that isnt part of why my friend was able to improve.
Actually yeah, I started watching Huk streams and watching IdrA's first person view in replays to help me a lot. When you see what they are doing and when you get more of a feel for the game. I recommend that too 
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600 games 1v1 and silver?
damn
including beta i think i played around 200 games before i hit diamond
dont play to win/mass game, play to learn and improve, and naturally you'll just get better
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i think the difference comes from the the perspective of the player
the difference between silver and low-mid diamond is probably 95%+ macro basics
if someone comes to this game and puts his focus on basic mechanical skills he will be a rookie diamond player in no time at all ^^
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EPT
