EPTIt is possible to hit a developmental wall with SC2, or anything really, but there are exercises that anyone could do to increase creativity and brain function.
sc2 skill, learned vs natural - Page 10
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justle
United States174 Posts
It is possible to hit a developmental wall with SC2, or anything really, but there are exercises that anyone could do to increase creativity and brain function. | ||
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Comprissent
United States314 Posts
I'm a 2300 diamond protoss (i'd guess about 2500 by now if i had played at my normal pace during christmas break; i haven't played a single 1v1 ladder match since dec 20th or so) I've got a good background in console gaming, and used to play insane amounts of chess, to which i can attribute a lot of my strategy from. I suppose they sort of mix. I'd consider myself a very adept learner as well- i've had to pick up and become semi-proficient in several musical instruments in just several weeks before. | ||
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Dreadwolf
Canada220 Posts
On January 04 2011 17:28 Jago wrote: I was just curious to know how much of their sc2 skill people think was learned through long and hard hours of practice and how much was basically natural. I've been reading lately about people who claim to have gotten into Diamond within their first 50-80 games without previous RTS experience and I am trying to figure out of it's just me who is really horribad or if these people are lying. SC2 is also my first serious RTS and 735 league games later (about 600 1v1) I am still in Silver, so if what these people claim is true, it's kinda depressing I guess. Yeah there are people with more talent at this game. Took me about 300 game to get out of silver, then i stoped playing for a week, after 100 more games i got back in silver again, il get gold again eventualy but right now i cant play. So your not alone, i dont know why you are still in silver after so many games but i am cursed with bad hand /eye coordination and i process visual information slower than the average guy. I read forums, i watch pro play. i watch replay, i watch day9, if i didnt do these thing i would be everybody bitch in bronze. I dont watch my replays much however, because most of the time i know why i lost. I get supply blocked, i stop making probes, i focus too much on a battle instead of macro, i didnt scout enough, i focused on scouting too much dont build stuff, i screw up my forcefields, the list of reasons of why i lose games is quite large! I noticed that if i played allot of game everyday those mistake where happening allot less. If i keep playing my basic stuff is much better, make probes, building pylon, keep your money low! I have no doubt that some people have natural ability for this game and it help them tremendously, They also dont get how people like me can be so bad at this game it just dosent make any sense for them, its easy. I have natural tallent for music, it took me a LONG time to understand why other people could not play at the right speed without tapping their foot to keep the rythm, or following the drummer, it did not make any sense to me that you have to base the speed of your play on some external things, when all you have to do is just play at the right speed! But even with my natural talent i will never be able to read a sheet of music and play at the same time. So, yeah sometime its depressing somme people will be better than me even after they play 10 games, but you know what, i watch alot of high ranked played stream.. and man they face the same things all the time if they get the same maps, often the game will be alsmot identical to the previous ones and man that seem like prety damn boring to me. The only thing i dont like about being silver is the cheese, there is so much cheese, there was more straigth up game in gold so i want to get back there. Sorry for the long post i am so bored i cant play sc2 at, my gaming comp is broken  | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On January 05 2011 04:38 theShogi wrote: i think the difference comes from the the perspective of the player the difference between silver and low-mid diamond is probably 95%+ macro basics if someone comes to this game and puts his focus on basic mechanical skills he will be a rookie diamond player in no time at all ^^ I agree with this mostly. I started making a lot of probes and expanding at that got me from bronze -> platinum. Platinum to diamond requires a little bit of unit control and multitasking as well. I went from 30 apm to 80 apm which helped a lot too. (I think idra is around 120 apm for some perspective) | ||
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Jago
Finland390 Posts
It of course might be that there is something severely broken with my basic game mechanics, but for example the last time I got supply blocked without someone actively hunting down my overlords was months ago. In my opinion my 2 biggest problems are: 1) either completely succumbing to or getting fatally crippled by early 2 rax/2 gate pressure 2) inability to correctly deal with massively turtling 2 base terrans and protoss | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
actually if u past the 50-80 games mark the game will probably think u belong to your league than it will be very hard to rise ... I've been facing platinums/goldies in my silver acc for ages .... Edit: and winning against them way more than losing ... Edit2: If u play only on some weekends like myself I think ur more likely to stagnate on one league too ... | ||
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universalwill
United States654 Posts
having 600 games and not being in diamond means there's a huge problem, and that problem is that you are making no effort to think about the game you're playing. how can i know this? because there are people in diamond who have 30 APM and no understanding of the dynamics of starcraft. yet they are in diamond because they think just enough to memorize a build order, and that's all they need. they just go into a game saying "i am going to go 2port banshee," and because they've already decided what they're going to do, they beat the aimless wanderers who just sit there for a while watching their probes mine, then think "hmm i like colossi i guess i will get those now." it's all about learning. mechanics can come to you naturally, but if you don't try to learn, you won't really go anywhere. | ||
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plagiarisedwords
United Kingdom138 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority One of the interesting points in there is a survey that found 93% of drivers in a sample thought they were in the top 50% :-). People need a reality check about their skill level and also their natural ability. Also the attitude that you can be good at something with less effort than others is not going to get you far in SC2 or anything else that you do in your life. Especially at lower levels of a sport or an e-sport, practice matters more than natural ability (Diamond is still low levels :-) Blizz sets the bar low to make all of us feel better!) | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
I think the players with large numbers of games but are in lower leagues might now know how to, or be willing to do what you need to improve. TL is A huge pool of knowledge but people just don't utilize all the information to improve, mostly the mechanical ability to play the game, how often are replays posted of people claiming macro is not the problem and they don't understand why they lost, when clearly having made 20 workers 15m into the game is not good macro. When you review your replays, you need to be very VERY honest with yourself and where you went wrong, as at lower levels 99% of the time it was something you did, but people do not like to accept a loss as a personal mistake. Its much easier to blame it on what someone perceives as race imbalance or overpowered strategies. If anything this is where the human factors kicks in primarily when you are learning to do something, you have to accept responsibility for your losses and mistakes to improve. I do not get to play a whole lot, and i play across all 3 races at any given point, having less then 200 games but i reached diamond after about 50-60 games when i started playing in around October. I read the advice of sites like TL and watched videos like day9 who is an amazing source of information for the aspiring player, and applied them to myself. I never blamed my loss on the opponents race or strategy , i blamed it on when i supply blocked myself, when i forget to makes probes, when i don't expand, when im floating resources or when i didn't scout my opponent correctly. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
Who knows? | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On January 05 2011 04:49 darmousseh wrote: I agree with this mostly. I started making a lot of probes and expanding at that got me from bronze -> platinum. Platinum to diamond requires a little bit of unit control and multitasking as well. I went from 30 apm to 80 apm which helped a lot too. (I think idra is around 120 apm for some perspective) Pretty sure his APM is 180ish, but certainly higher than 120. Still, it's not 300 or anything where you're like "I could never be that good". | ||
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Faze.
Canada285 Posts
On January 04 2011 17:32 piskooooo wrote: They probably got Diamond from winning 4-5 of their placement matches. Can't get in diamond just from placement matches, I won all 5 of them and was only put in platinum. I also read somewhere that it's just not possible to get in diamond from placement matches. | ||
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shtdisturbance
Canada613 Posts
Learning the 4 gate and then practicing the build for 80 games will get you to diamond but i dont think thats the build you should practice. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On January 05 2011 05:50 Neo.NEt wrote: Some people are just naturally bad at this game. One of my friends is insanely smart (just graduated from Harvard) yet he was god awful at WC3. He watched replays, commentaries, etc. but no matter how hard he tried he was just dreadful. If you give him a differential equation he'll crush it but if you asked what he was thinking during this game he'd be like "uhhh I don't have a clue". Who knows? that's not really that uncommon is it? I dont think when I play. If I havent seen something before I generally lose outright and then have to spend time outside of the game thinking about how to handle it, and then I can load it into muscle memory. If you want to know how to get better, you MUST identify the mistakes you are making in retrospect or you WILL NOT get better, period. if you have that clear of a head when you are playing, then you are already at the point where you are mechanically sound (assuming of course you arent playing 15apm in copper) enough that you can get 3 builds of liquipedia and just refine them and win more than half of your games against just the people who dont know where to find the knowledge. I will say that 90% of the time you will NOT notice mistakes in game unless they are big mistakes. Getting supply blocked is obvious, but doing something stupid (like always building an overseer for no reason; something I was personally guilty of for a time) will add up. Look at how many people in the GSL inject larvae when they could easily get a tumor. Ask other people to look at your replays and ask them to identify your mistakes. This game is much like street fighter 4; the developers have made execution much easier and while you still need to spend some time developing those skills they are not nearly as hard to learn as in the past. There are people who 4 gate into diamond. In the beta back when plat was the highest league and we had a couple of resets I straight up proxy gated into plat. I have to say, if you become one of those people, I dont think you will enjoy yourself when you play and that defeats the purpose. Also, thumbing down steppes of war will help unless you want to practice holding off early aggression. Which brings this poorly organized wall of text to a close. Practice one thing at a time. Let me provide a real life example of how to do this: assume that I play guitar. I want to practice my arpeggios. Now, would not it be nice to find some songs with arpeggios in them to practice? So head on over to the practice partner thread and find someone that will help you practice one piece of your game. You have to get those building blocks loaded into your muscle memory so that as soon as you scout that stargate you start building some queens and you dont have to think about it. | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
practice will only polish and refine your skill and push you towards your personal limit, but with diminishing returns just from my personal experience though, obviously it could be different for different people | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On January 05 2011 06:21 Raid wrote: diamond is not all that great, played a lot of junk diamond players who only know how to execute some form of harass / timing pushes they copied from a cast or pro... you see their flaws and makes you wonder what is diamond really if there are people who hault worker production for a while and queue things Plenty of pros hault worker production and queue things as well so... not really enough to show someone shouldn't be diamond. | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
On January 05 2011 05:08 plagiarisedwords wrote: Also the attitude that you can be good at something with less effort than others is not going to get you far in SC2 or anything else that you do in your life. Especially at lower levels of a sport or an e-sport, practice matters more than natural ability (Diamond is still low levels :-) Blizz sets the bar low to make all of us feel better!) Practice matters more than natural ability, but to say natural ability doesn't matter is just silly. You can take two people who haven't played SC2 before, give them the same number of games and come out with very different rankings. Why do some people have 200 games played and can't get out of gold while others have 200 games played and are playing in diamond? Of course some people take need less effort to get good at something than others. You see that in all aspects of life, be it school, work or games. Effort pays off everwhere, sure, but its not the only thing that helps the successful get to where they are. | ||
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Nearsite00
United States31 Posts
I'm still at a loss to what this game or any PC game for that matter requires physically from someone? Can anyone define this? Seems like you just have to have some brain power and remember where all your keys are on your keyboard. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On January 05 2011 06:21 Raid wrote: diamond is not all that great, played a lot of junk diamond players who only know how to execute some form of harass / timing pushes they copied from a cast or pro... you see their flaws and makes you wonder what is diamond really if there are people who hault worker production for a while and queue things Diamond! Try top 200! If I ever went more than 2 games in a row without getting supply blocked 3 times before 100 supply and never went above 1000 minerals I'd probably wake up from my dream right afterward. | ||
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