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sc2 skill, learned vs natural - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 17 Next All
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4126 Posts
January 04 2011 13:18 GMT
#101
A little off topic, but those players who got to diamond really quick probably are at least D+ in iccup or have played wc3 or some sort of rts before
danielsan
Profile Joined December 2010
Romania399 Posts
January 04 2011 13:19 GMT
#102
On January 04 2011 22:11 Dezzeh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2011 18:58 danielsan wrote:
im really curious about the ones getting to diamond that fast:

do you know different openings or just polished one using it exclusively



Diamond in about 50-60 games, no multiplayer RTS experience and very limited single player RTS experience before I picked up SC2. What did I do? Every single game I go 14 gas/14 pool and work from there, no set build orders, just goals. Only in the last 20 games or so I have been mixing things up.

By goals I mean like "I need to have a 3rd hatch in the making before the 10 min mark if I'm not under pressure", "I need to have at least 1/1 upgrades by 15 min", "I want to have my creep spread to all my bases as soon as possible", "I want to have a sizeable roach/hydra army at X time", "I need to keep using my muta's, don't let them just flap around, keep harassing" etc. Notice that most of these are macro goals.

Then there's mental checklists. "I need to check the larvae count and inject larvae timers on my hatches (and thus select my queens and hatches very often to keep track)", "I need to keep looking at the upper right part of my screen, resources low? Enougy supply?", "Fly an overlord over enemy main at 7 min into the game" and so forth.

Then there's the part of just knowing the game, as in knowing what all units can do, and what works best. Not necessarily counter what the enemy has, but just know what is possible at any given point in time. This is done by watching streams, replays, day9 and reading on strategy. I think I have put about the same amount of time in this as in actually playing the game (only done just over 100 games though). I guess I just need more experience now.

thnks for answer, could you also tell me when did this happen?
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
January 04 2011 13:19 GMT
#103
i don't really believe in talent, but i do believe in the sense of picking things up quickly

i'd suggest streaming your own play and rewatching your videos
doesn't hurt so much to see what you're doing well, and what you could be doing better

and overall being able to follow your movements, recall game decisions, & making better goals for yourself should help you play better than you do now
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
gillon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden1578 Posts
January 04 2011 13:22 GMT
#104
On January 04 2011 18:23 Kimaker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2011 17:45 Leviwtf wrote:
There is no such thing as talent, it has been proven over and over again. The level of expertise you have is directly tired to how much you practice AND how effectively you practice.

Getting into diamond literally shows very little of your skill level, the easy way is to learn 1 all in build (4gate, 3rax, etc) and just use it always. And even if people have no previous RTS experience they might have played speed chess or something else that would give them previous experience that would be helpful. Hell, even playing video games alot that are 1v1 based in a big help in that you won't be nervous when playing 1v1 like most people are. They also might of watched day9 every day and he gives very helpful tips that many new RTS players take a long time to figure out for themselves.

Also, you will improve immensely when you stop worrying about the outcome (winning/losing and what league your in/your points) and instead focus on improving.

That's a load of crock. There CERTAINLY exists natural inclinations toward doing better than others at a given task considering we all think differently, and process information differently. Some ways of thinking would of course be more suited to quickly grasping rts's mechanics than others. I agree, hard work will beat out natural talent 9/10 times, but to say that "There is no such thing as talent..." is just lying.

Not gonna argue with the middle portion of your post, but then why are some people at 700+ games, and still in Silver? They probably know what a 4 gate is, and have the damn thing memorized so they could recite it in their sleep. And clearly practice is not the issue (so damn many games) so what is it then? (Exaggeration)


Practice well for a 100 games, get to diamond. Play 700 games and durp around and not actually consider what you could've done better/analyze/watch replays etc and you end up still in silver.

See where I'm going with this? More games does not necessarily mean more skill earned through practice.
www.teamproperty.net | "You should hate losing, but you should never fear defeat." - 이윤열
Deadlyhazard
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1177 Posts
January 04 2011 13:23 GMT
#105
On January 04 2011 22:12 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
There is no natural talent, it's a term that lazy & uninspired people came up with as an excuse to being lazy / not caring enough.

Yep. That's what professionals think, at least the ones I've talked to such as Feng Zhu......concerning painting.
Hark!
Pulimuli
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Sweden2766 Posts
January 04 2011 13:24 GMT
#106
On January 04 2011 22:12 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
There is no natural talent, it's a term that lazy & uninspired people came up with as an excuse to being lazy / not caring enough.


right... so how do you explain child prodigies who are mathematical geniuses or who can speak 5 languages fluently at the age of 7?
R3m3mb3rM3
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany954 Posts
January 04 2011 13:25 GMT
#107
On January 04 2011 22:24 Pulimuli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2011 22:12 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
There is no natural talent, it's a term that lazy & uninspired people came up with as an excuse to being lazy / not caring enough.


right... so how do you explain child prodigies who are mathematical geniuses or who can speak 5 languages fluently at the age of 7?



obviously they worked very hard for 7 years :D
TFB
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom89 Posts
January 04 2011 13:25 GMT
#108
As per everything else in life, I'd say...

"Natural talent" (for want of a better phrase) sets your upper ability limit, the rate at which you reach it is set by your ability to learn, your ability to stick at something is an innate characteristic of your personality, and there's absolutely nothing you can do change or avoid those factors. The whole notion that effort and practice will always result in success, and that everyone get there (wherever there is) if they try, is just a rather lame myth perpetuated by certain elements of society in order to shy away from what is, essentially, a very painful truth for some.

Disclaimer : I'm bronze, I suck, I know why, and it's not going to change. I just enjoy the game when there's no cheese on the table.
WARNING : TFB is rubbish, do not treat post as gospel
Huragius
Profile Joined September 2010
Lithuania1506 Posts
January 04 2011 13:30 GMT
#109
I got to diamond after 21 games. Before sc2 I played SC:BW for three months to get into sc2 with game understanding ( got to C- in three months). I also played DotA a lot, with very high level players for about three years (I played DotA about 5 years with breaks), but I don't think DotA helped here. Some people are really good at computer games, especially RTS. This is like some people are good at maths or physics.
LittLeD
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden7973 Posts
January 04 2011 13:33 GMT
#110
There is no such thing as talent, it has been proven over and over again. The level of expertise you have is directly tired to how much you practice AND how effectively you practice.

You cant wholeheartedly believe that can you? Some people are just born smarter and mentally "quicker" and thus learn the game at a much faster speed. Its a matter of how well you can understand things and put it into practice.
☆Grubby ☆| Tod|DeMusliM|ThorZaiN|SaSe|Moon|Mana| ☆HerO ☆
TheKing
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia186 Posts
January 04 2011 13:35 GMT
#111
It took around 9 times for Jaedong to win courage. Yet he is the best zerg on the planet. I think the ratio of what matters is 90% practise 10% talent.
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
January 04 2011 13:36 GMT
#112
Everything I learned from BW carried over to SC2, so I can't say it was natural but in a sense it was. The people that got into diamond off 50 games, good for them. I'm happy for those that did it through watching replays, playing custom to develop their timings and builds and taking the time to learn how to play efficiently. The majority of the people that claim that are probably cheesey players who think that they are good based off all-in.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
slith
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany165 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 13:52:33
January 04 2011 13:37 GMT
#113
Started with Silver after placement matches. Got into Diamond in about 35-40 matches, only RTS experience so far is Starcraft 1 (custom games mostly, mapping alot, playing alot against ai) - never been good against other players in SC1, I preferred making custom and melee maps. Back then I raged when someone used Dropships. I built only Zerglings, because they are so cute.

Most experience comes from shooters (Quake, UT, AvP, HL+Mods [Natural Selection: Team Germany 2k6+2k7]). I noticed that I'm really good at getting "into the mind" of the opponent.

I'm very good at games in general, always been since I got my SNES. It's the biggest part of my live tbh. I don't care about anything else much. I learn relatively fast (not in social things though :/) and I'm good at analyzing myself.

I used different build orders almost every match. I 5RR'd 4 times (until it failed to an Immortal rush) and Baneling Busted once.
When in doubt, empty your magazine.
Huragius
Profile Joined September 2010
Lithuania1506 Posts
January 04 2011 13:39 GMT
#114
On January 04 2011 22:35 TheKing wrote:
It took around 9 times for Jaedong to win courage. Yet he is the best zerg on the planet. I think the ratio of what matters is 90% practise 10% talent.


This is simply not true. There are a lot of people who plays way more than 10% like Flash or JD and their ELO is below average.
warshop
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada490 Posts
January 04 2011 13:42 GMT
#115
On January 04 2011 22:33 LittLeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
There is no such thing as talent, it has been proven over and over again. The level of expertise you have is directly tired to how much you practice AND how effectively you practice.

You cant wholeheartedly believe that can you? Some people are just born smarter and mentally "quicker" and thus learn the game at a much faster speed. Its a matter of how well you can understand things and put it into practice.


True, but everyone can achieve greatness if efforts are put in. That's what I think. It might take some way more time than others, but it can still be achieved.
apox
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia19 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 13:44:05
January 04 2011 13:43 GMT
#116
I can only say it for myself but I never played any RTS multiplayer game before and I was promoted to Diamond League after like 50-60 games (now 1500 points but haven't played for ages with 1000 pts. bonus pool). I also played random for the first 150 games and then switched to terran because honestly it's the easiest race to play when you are new to the game. M&M too easy :D
Huragius
Profile Joined September 2010
Lithuania1506 Posts
January 04 2011 13:43 GMT
#117
On January 04 2011 22:36 GreEny K wrote:
Everything I learned from BW carried over to SC2, so I can't say it was natural but in a sense it was. The people that got into diamond off 50 games, good for them. I'm happy for those that did it through watching replays, playing custom to develop their timings and builds and taking the time to learn how to play efficiently. The majority of the people that claim that are probably cheesey players who think that they are good based off all-in.


Could be. But when I started to play sc2, I tried to find the most cheese-proof build followed by FE. I never relied on my opponents scouting or incapability of countering. But things are changing, this is why I hate TvZ.
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
January 04 2011 13:44 GMT
#118
I'd say the #1 most important skill in improving in SC is not "SC talent" per say, but actually the ability to analyze your play, find mistakes and learn from them. Basically, if you're good at "learning" then you'll quickly pick up RTS concepts over fewer number of games and rapidly improve, while others will keep grinding out games and never realize their fundamental mistakes in their gameplay. Or they'll blame something else like "too much cheese" and get bored and quit laddering.
anderkas
Profile Joined October 2010
United States86 Posts
January 04 2011 13:44 GMT
#119
I'm only a silver playing mostly golds and i have 600+ games as well. Talent a myth? haha, no. You'd realize that if you actually put an effort in school and actually recognize that the common slacker with straight A's. We're not all created equal that's fine.

Personally I do wonder if there's an age where your ability to pick up a completely new gaming experience shoots down. The high diamonds I notice are generally in their 20's and had ample experience with sc1/BW. The low diamonds with 50 games generally sound like 14-16 yo's with their "lol bronzies", but the guys who are stuck at low levels despite seeking advice and watching day9 usually end up being older (20's+) as well.

I'm a 23 yo console only gamer for the most part and it shows. I pick up a controller and hold my own in almost any console game I'm introduced to. Gimme Rock Band, not so much. Gimme a mouse and keyboard, tell me to have my left hand off the home row and my right hand always on the mouse and I start to fumble with my mechanics. Yeah I know what to do moreso than many low-mid diamonds that I see...I just struggle to adapt to this new medium and execute.
There's a base in my base!
love.less
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom293 Posts
January 04 2011 13:45 GMT
#120
people qouting day9 to this guy isnt going to help him even if you smart guys think it is, post some replays mate and let people have a look at your play and you might find some answers as to why your still in silver
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