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On January 04 2011 15:52 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 08:52 pezit wrote:I'm getting tired of hearing about WC3 players and their micro. It's just nothing special, WC3 is the easier game and they are not even close to the level of top SC:BW players, they're probably not even close to the SC:BW B-teamers that are currently at the top in SC2 right now like Nestea, Marineking, MVP and MC. There's a reason why SC:BW players have like three or four times the APM of top WC3 players, and it's not just macro.
are you serious? honestly go watch a recent wc3 replay from grubby. the micro is so insane. also no, BW is not the easier game. you cant say one game is either than the other. the Wemadefox IH stats were released for 09, and moon (the wc3 pro) had a 40% win rate. In BW. not wc3, BW. he was competing with the WMF sc1 players, while being a boss at wc3.
You realise Wemadefox has a BW player called Moon who isn't the same as the WC3 Moon on the same team right? There are two Moons on wemadefox.
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On January 04 2011 08:25 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 18:15 Squeegy wrote:On January 03 2011 12:25 Lefnui wrote:Just to clear up that ridiculous argument: Moon is the best Warcraft III player of all time. He has by far the most achievements, there is no comparison. Anyone who tells you that Grubby is better has no knowledge of WC3 at all. Grubby is however generally considered the second best. On January 03 2011 10:32 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On January 03 2011 10:18 nathangonmad wrote:
I really hope Grubby is successful in Sc2. I really loved watching him in Wc3. But one things for sure, hes gonna have insane micro. The idea that WC3 players have super amazing micro is completely false as far as I have seen. I refuse to believe that anybody on the planet has micro as good as Jaedong, not to mention his macro. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary from Moon in the GSL. Absolutely baseless opinion, nothing else. Not really. Quite a few agree with him. Marineking for example seems to be able to dance circles around anyone when it comes to micro in SC2. With that being said I am not very impressed by WC3 players micro. Kiwikaki would be an exception to this at his level (top foreigner). I think his micro has won him quite a few games, And I sign the comment about Jaedong, except that Bisu is even better in my opinion. If you think Kiwikaki's micro is good, who was a subpar WC3 player (no insult to him, but he wasn't a top player) then how can you not be impressed with the best of the best, like Grubby, Moon, FoV ect. There micro is 100x better then Kiwis.
Uh kiwi wasn't a subpar war3 player. To imply that there is any major skill discrepancy between the top level warcraft 3 players is just far-fetched. The only thing I'll say is there were about 7 top level NA war3 players that have already or could trade games with the 'top' korean/chinese/european players.
I'm not going to name drop but almost all of the players that most of the common community considered the 'top' NA players for war3 were actually not. publicity/popularity != good.
Every purely NA based war3 team to this day has been a miserable failure (I can tell you this from experience, as anyone at the top of the war3 scene was on a new team every month it seemed like.) Getting everyone that needed to be on one team to make a footprint was next to impossible, so I can see how perceptions can be misguided from somebody that didn't really have a true following of war3.
Also I'll refrain from placing a token on Moon vs Grubby since, NE vs Orc was heavily NE favored for the majority of the games release (dryads only level 2 units and not 3 for xp, no CD on hero staff trading). The fact that Grubby was trading games and even beating moon in some matches during all of this is pretty impressive.
Just wanted to shed some light,
to be more on topic with the OP, war3 isn't a game that requires near the hours of practice once you reach a certain level. If anything sc2 can potentially only improve war3 play, just higher alertness.
also might as well, war3 and sc2 micro are not the same. the only thing that can be said as a whole is that war3 players have better unit control/management/'care' of their units.
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Seeing this new thread is already 12 pages, and the old one was pretty big as well, I have to say a lot of people might be disappointed (and still, ready to find excuses) if Grubby fails.
Something tells me, he will devote more than half of his time for SC2. After all, he can just win WC3 tourneys without practicing so much, and even if he has to face Koreans, the likes of Moon and Lyn are themselves playing SC2. So yeah, please, do not prepare excuses if he fails.
And just a hint, there is no SINGLE thing that tells me why he should be more than an average SC2 player. This is just a side-note.
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would be great if he can be great hybrid
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On January 04 2011 08:44 Kazzabiss wrote:
Also I think it was the opinion of most that NaDa had the best overall micro of BW, or at least had other skills to back it up not like say a player like Iris. And I know that's just an opinion but you can look back at all the old BW threads and the general opinion was NaDa at the top with Jaedong and others right up there with him. NaDa definitely had the highest average APM though.
That being said, NaDa in the opinion of most is NOT the best micro'er of sc2 so,
Amazing Micro in one game ≠ Amazing Micro in another. WC3 is more micro orientated yes, but that doesn't mean that directly correlates into another game, but in some cases it could.
Uhh... what? How did no one stop to mention that this sentence is just completely wrong. I don't mean to insult you, but the "facts" you have are just dead wrong. Here, lets just get a basic source that's usually correct (here it is) and is easy to read, liquipedia.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/NaDa
"He is known for his excellent macromanagement, mechanics, and his innovative strategies leading to his nickname, 'Genius Terran.'"
Nada was a macro player, known for just having more units than everyone else and steamrolling them. That doesn't mean he couldn't micro, but he was not the best micro player at all and in fact was not known for microing.
Now if you look at old BW threads, yes, Nada was on the top. However, you must be looking pretty far back because the last starleague he qualified for was back in 2007. Which means he wasn't in the group of top players for the last 3-4 years. Yes, his accomplishments are talked about with Jaedong because he still has won the most awards, but remember that these were won back in 2007. Nada was still playing for 3 years after that but was unable to qualify for individual leagues after that and his proleague experience was pretty lackluster.
So, by 2010, Nada was a lackluster BW player who was known 3 years ago as the greatest macro player and started a macro revolution. This in no way shows that he was an amazing micro player that can be compared to as one of the best in BW. So because the entire basis of that paragraph is just not right, the conclusion cannot be inferred from the premises. In fact you can almost say he's not amazing at micro in either games, but by watching his GSL games, he sure had solid macro and walked over people with more units. Maybe there is a correlation? Who knows.
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On January 04 2011 19:22 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 08:44 Kazzabiss wrote:
Also I think it was the opinion of most that NaDa had the best overall micro of BW, or at least had other skills to back it up not like say a player like Iris. And I know that's just an opinion but you can look back at all the old BW threads and the general opinion was NaDa at the top with Jaedong and others right up there with him. NaDa definitely had the highest average APM though.
That being said, NaDa in the opinion of most is NOT the best micro'er of sc2 so,
Amazing Micro in one game ≠ Amazing Micro in another. WC3 is more micro orientated yes, but that doesn't mean that directly correlates into another game, but in some cases it could.
Uhh... what? How did no one stop to mention that this sentence is just completely wrong. I don't mean to insult you, but the "facts" you have are just dead wrong. Here, lets just get a basic source that's usually correct (here it is) and is easy to read, liquipedia. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/NaDa"He is known for his excellent macromanagement, mechanics, and his innovative strategies leading to his nickname, 'Genius Terran.'" Nada was a macro player, known for just having more units than everyone else and steamrolling them. That doesn't mean he couldn't micro, but he was not the best micro player at all and in fact was not known for microing. Now if you look at old BW threads, yes, Nada was on the top. However, you must be looking pretty far back because the last starleague he qualified for was back in 2007. Which means he wasn't in the group of top players for the last 3-4 years. Yes, his accomplishments are talked about with Jaedong because he still has won the most awards, but remember that these were won back in 2007. Nada was still playing for 3 years after that but was unable to qualify for individual leagues after that and his proleague experience was pretty lackluster. So, by 2010, Nada was a lackluster BW player who was known 3 years ago as the greatest macro player and started a macro revolution. This in no way shows that he was an amazing micro player that can be compared to as one of the best in BW. So because the entire basis of that paragraph is just not right, the conclusion cannot be inferred from the premises. In fact you can almost say he's not amazing at micro in either games, but by watching his GSL games, he sure had solid macro and walked over people with more units. Maybe there is a correlation? Who knows.
Um, NaDa was generally known for his multitask, being able to both Macro and Micro at the same time. For example, NaDa's signature Tornado Terran style was based around micro-harass with vultures while at the same time macroing up for a massive tank push. Iloveoov was the one known for putting macro above micro and starting the real macro revolution.
Also, NaDa not qualifying for an individual league since 2007? Hello? Nada's most recent accomplishment was making it to the Lost Saga MSL quarterfinals in march 2009, barely losing 2-3 to one of the top PvT players at the time. Otherwise you're mostly correct though...
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On January 04 2011 15:52 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 08:52 pezit wrote:I'm getting tired of hearing about WC3 players and their micro. It's just nothing special, WC3 is the easier game and they are not even close to the level of top SC:BW players, they're probably not even close to the SC:BW B-teamers that are currently at the top in SC2 right now like Nestea, Marineking, MVP and MC. There's a reason why SC:BW players have like three or four times the APM of top WC3 players, and it's not just macro.
are you serious? honestly go watch a recent wc3 replay from grubby. the micro is so insane. also no, BW is not the easier game. you cant say one game is either than the other. the Wemadefox IH stats were released for 09, and moon (the wc3 pro) had a 40% win rate. In BW. not wc3, BW. he was competing with the WMF sc1 players, while being a boss at wc3.
Only that it was 24% and not 40%. He was definitely not competing with them but getting dominated while winning a game here and there. Don't get me wrong, it is still impressive as he did not play BW that much.
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On January 04 2011 16:17 Xxavi wrote:
And just a hint, there is no SINGLE thing that tells me why he should be more than an average SC2 player. This is just a side-note.
Well the fact that he was one of the best war3 players of all time is a SINGLE thing that tells you why he should be more than an average SC2 player.
Not saying he will be, but between a random guy picking up SC2 and a top war3 player picking up SC2, I'll vote on the war3 pro becoming better than your average pro.
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On January 04 2011 08:52 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 08:25 nGBeast wrote:On January 03 2011 18:15 Squeegy wrote:On January 03 2011 12:25 Lefnui wrote:Just to clear up that ridiculous argument: Moon is the best Warcraft III player of all time. He has by far the most achievements, there is no comparison. Anyone who tells you that Grubby is better has no knowledge of WC3 at all. Grubby is however generally considered the second best. On January 03 2011 10:32 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On January 03 2011 10:18 nathangonmad wrote:
I really hope Grubby is successful in Sc2. I really loved watching him in Wc3. But one things for sure, hes gonna have insane micro. The idea that WC3 players have super amazing micro is completely false as far as I have seen. I refuse to believe that anybody on the planet has micro as good as Jaedong, not to mention his macro. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary from Moon in the GSL. Absolutely baseless opinion, nothing else. Not really. Quite a few agree with him. Marineking for example seems to be able to dance circles around anyone when it comes to micro in SC2. With that being said I am not very impressed by WC3 players micro. Kiwikaki would be an exception to this at his level (top foreigner). I think his micro has won him quite a few games, And I sign the comment about Jaedong, except that Bisu is even better in my opinion. If you think Kiwikaki's micro is good, who was a subpar WC3 player (no insult to him, but he wasn't a top player) then how can you not be impressed with the best of the best, like Grubby, Moon, FoV ect. There micro is 100x better then Kiwis. I'm getting tired of hearing about WC3 players and their micro. It's just nothing special, WC3 is the easier game and they are not even close to the level of top SC:BW players, they're probably not even close to the SC:BW B-teamers that are currently at the top in SC2 right now like Nestea, Marineking, MVP and MC. There's a reason why SC:BW players have like three or four times the APM of top WC3 players, and it's not just macro.
Your entire post is nonsense but the portion in bold is blatantly wrong. It's a shame that so many people on this forum feel the need to degrade a game that they know absolutely nothing about. The APM of BW pros was not "three or four times" that of WC3 pros. To even say it was twice as much would be an exaggeration. 200-250 APM was typical of the highest level WC3 players. In fact, many Korean players had APMs way above that. A very strong Human player named Rainbow would routinely have 380+ APM.
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On January 03 2011 15:05 scion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 10:44 Xolo wrote:On January 03 2011 10:34 Saechiis wrote:On January 03 2011 10:30 Xolo wrote:
So far just about every amazing wc3/sc1 player has been pretty disappointing in sc2 so I don't expect to see Grubby winning gsl or anything. The most amazing SC1 players are still playing BW, the less amazing ones have won all GSL's  I never really followed the sc scene but I'm almost certain that Boxer and Nada were supposed to be some of the best sc1 players, and while they're obviously not doing completely horrible in sc2, they're not dominating by any mean. Boxer and Nada are historical figures as far as BW scene goes. They couldn't even qualify for OSL/MSL near the end of their sc1 careers.
If any of top BW players were to switch, they would surely dominate SC2 scene.
I don't agree with this, since if this were true then the more recent of the former BW progamers now active in SC2 would be the dominant players. We would be talking about how JulyZerg is so good and not even considering the likes of MC, Fruitdealer and Nestea as top-calibre players.
However with the current crop of ladder maps encouraging 1-2 base builds from Protoss and Terran, the improved AI of SC2, the skillcap of SC2 is currently lower than BW. So if players like Flash and Jaedong were to transfer to SC2 now, they wouldn't dominate because SC2 simply isn't complex enough.
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On January 04 2011 16:00 tangwhat wrote:
You realise Wemadefox has a BW player called Moon who isn't the same as the WC3 Moon on the same team right? There are two Moons on wemadefox.
I only see one Moon on their roster across all of WMF's teams.
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On January 04 2011 16:00 tangwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 15:52 L3g3nd_ wrote:On January 04 2011 08:52 pezit wrote:I'm getting tired of hearing about WC3 players and their micro. It's just nothing special, WC3 is the easier game and they are not even close to the level of top SC:BW players, they're probably not even close to the SC:BW B-teamers that are currently at the top in SC2 right now like Nestea, Marineking, MVP and MC. There's a reason why SC:BW players have like three or four times the APM of top WC3 players, and it's not just macro.
are you serious? honestly go watch a recent wc3 replay from grubby. the micro is so insane. also no, BW is not the easier game. you cant say one game is either than the other. the Wemadefox IH stats were released for 09, and moon (the wc3 pro) had a 40% win rate. In BW. not wc3, BW. he was competing with the WMF sc1 players, while being a boss at wc3. You realise Wemadefox has a BW player called Moon who isn't the same as the WC3 Moon on the same team right? There are two Moons on wemadefox.
This is true, but WC3 Moon does occasionally play BW matches against FOX players. Pure said he's good enough that he can take games off their B team.
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On January 04 2011 19:00 Redunzl wrote:
ToD will crush him...
ToD's account is YoanM on the EU server and it isn't impressive. He's obviously playing for fun though.
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Australia8532 Posts
On January 05 2011 06:00 bruteMax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 15:05 scion wrote:On January 03 2011 10:44 Xolo wrote:On January 03 2011 10:34 Saechiis wrote:On January 03 2011 10:30 Xolo wrote:
So far just about every amazing wc3/sc1 player has been pretty disappointing in sc2 so I don't expect to see Grubby winning gsl or anything. The most amazing SC1 players are still playing BW, the less amazing ones have won all GSL's I never really followed the sc scene but I'm almost certain that Boxer and Nada were supposed to be some of the best sc1 players, and while they're obviously not doing completely horrible in sc2, they're not dominating by any mean. Boxer and Nada are historical figures as far as BW scene goes. They couldn't even qualify for OSL/MSL near the end of their sc1 careers.
If any of top BW players were to switch, they would surely dominate SC2 scene. I don't agree with this, since if this were true then the more recent of the former BW progamers now active in SC2 would be the dominant players. We would be talking about how JulyZerg is so good and not even considering the likes of MC, Fruitdealer and Nestea as top-calibre players. However with the current crop of ladder maps encouraging 1-2 base builds from Protoss and Terran, the improved AI of SC2, the skillcap of SC2 is currently lower than BW. So if players like Flash and Jaedong were to transfer to SC2 now, they wouldn't dominate because SC2 simply isn't complex enough.
You realise TSL_Rain is the only non-BW progamer to make a GSL final.. Once JulyZerg figures out the new gameplay i am sure he will be a dominant force. MC (iron), Fruitdealer (Cool) and Nestea (ZergBong) are all BW Progamers that weren't "nobodies" (except for maybe Nestea) .. If a flash or jaedong were to transfer i guarantee you they would be near the top; maybe not winning every competition but definately a dominant force in the game..
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On January 05 2011 06:00 bruteMax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 15:05 scion wrote:On January 03 2011 10:44 Xolo wrote:On January 03 2011 10:34 Saechiis wrote:On January 03 2011 10:30 Xolo wrote:
So far just about every amazing wc3/sc1 player has been pretty disappointing in sc2 so I don't expect to see Grubby winning gsl or anything. The most amazing SC1 players are still playing BW, the less amazing ones have won all GSL's I never really followed the sc scene but I'm almost certain that Boxer and Nada were supposed to be some of the best sc1 players, and while they're obviously not doing completely horrible in sc2, they're not dominating by any mean. Boxer and Nada are historical figures as far as BW scene goes. They couldn't even qualify for OSL/MSL near the end of their sc1 careers.
If any of top BW players were to switch, they would surely dominate SC2 scene. I don't agree with this, since if this were true then the more recent of the former BW progamers now active in SC2 would be the dominant players. We would be talking about how JulyZerg is so good and not even considering the likes of MC, Fruitdealer and Nestea as top-calibre players. However with the current crop of ladder maps encouraging 1-2 base builds from Protoss and Terran, the improved AI of SC2, the skillcap of SC2 is currently lower than BW. So if players like Flash and Jaedong were to transfer to SC2 now, they wouldn't dominate because SC2 simply isn't complex enough.
No it would more be because neither of them know how to play the game yet.
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The weird thing is im pretty sure if we gave flash or jaedong the game for 48 hours .. Maybe with a Maka or a Nestea behind them teaching them the basics of each MU i have NO fucking doubt they would be as good as 99.9% of all players in just that time peroid.
I guess that 0.1% is whats most important tho.
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Perhaps the best thing about the GSL is that first prize is around 80k. Every 1-2 months, yes? This tells me, quite clearly, that Flash, Jaedong, etc. (assuming they're legally allowed to compete; they are, right?) themselves don't think they can make the switch to sc2 without a lot of difficulty.
I suppose it wouldn't be all that surprising, though. The top sc1 players started well after "most" thinking on the game had already been developed; perhaps their real strengths are in finding very subtle ways to produce/macro/micro slightly better than the competition? On the other hand, Boxer's success early in sc1 is "consistent" with his success in sc2 (even despite being 30 years old!).
To be honest, I'm surprised the top sc1 players haven't stepped up to sc2, if for no other reason than to prove to themselves and/or others that their abilities are "universal." But again, perhaps the explanation is that the current top sc1 players thrive in games that are very well developed.
In any case, whether due to money, love of competition, or just pride, the incentives are there for anyone capable to compete in sc2 (excepting legal constraints).
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Gosh, you are all so wrong, Grubby, if he so wished can easily be one of the top players. Next to be known for insane micro he was rather the king of strategy. How often did he play with his back to the wall and just purely outsmarted his opponent. These are skills that you rarely observe on SC2 players. Sure, the game is not designed for this but I still believe that Grubby's skills are unique. And I'm by no means a Grubby fan-boy.
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On January 13 2011 20:40 Charlemagne wrote:
Perhaps the best thing about the GSL is that first prize is around 80k. Every 1-2 months, yes? This tells me, quite clearly, that Flash, Jaedong, etc. (assuming they're legally allowed to compete; they are, right?) themselves don't think they can make the switch to sc2 without a lot of difficulty.
I suppose it wouldn't be all that surprising, though. The top sc1 players started well after "most" thinking on the game had already been developed; perhaps their real strengths are in finding very subtle ways to produce/macro/micro slightly better than the competition? On the other hand, Boxer's success early in sc1 is "consistent" with his success in sc2 (even despite being 30 years old!).
To be honest, I'm surprised the top sc1 players haven't stepped up to sc2, if for no other reason than to prove to themselves and/or others that their abilities are "universal." But again, perhaps the explanation is that the current top sc1 players thrive in games that are very well developed.
In any case, whether due to money, love of competition, or just pride, the incentives are there for anyone capable to compete in sc2 (excepting legal constraints).
I'm pretty sure if people like zergbong and iron can dominate in SC2, Flash and Jaedong would mop the floor if they ever decided to switch. It's not skill holding them back, there are a lot of other factors (contracts, salary, etc).
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EPT
