|
On January 05 2011 02:57 FenneK wrote:
At a Diamond level, 4 Gates are insanely easy to deal with as Z if they scout it. Against Terran, I wouldn't recommend this unless they are teching.
In PvP though, a perfectly executed 4 Gate is incredibly powerful.
That's a matter of opinion, and your own opinion is likely to be influenced by your opponents.
I find a 4 gate to be easier to stop in PvP due to the use of forcefields (I generally use the same BO, 2gate robo, adding an extra gate if I scout a 4 gate, and getting out 2 early sentry's). It depends on your build order and the player you play against. In my opinion a 4gate will always be hard to stop for zerg, if the protoss executes it well.
|
On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote:
4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games
no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective
oGsMC gisado 3
![[image loading]](http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5922/gisado3.gif)
|
A perfectly executed and micro'd 4 gate is hard to stop by ANY race and player. If it was "ridiculously easy to stop" like half you people say it is, then it would have disappeared past 2k diamond. As it is, I still see it executed in professional matches vs every race, so quit with the "4 gate is easy to stop" crap. It's only easy if either he screws up his timing or you basically blind counter it. The thing is, executing it flawlessly is actually fairly difficult, as just a minor screw-up like your proxy pylon being 10 seconds late, or not hitting all your warp gate chronos perfectly can make the difference between an easy roll-over and you getting your butt handed to you.
As a bad silver toss, I think I'm going to take up this challenge and see where it gets me.
|
Good build in PvP, average build in PvT and especially weak build in PvZ.
1 rax into CC is easily defendable against a 4gate allin, which by definition obsoletes the 4 gate. If your opponent can make one barracks, expand, and still hold your allin, I'd go so far as to say the allin is not very good.
Also, 4gate is really map dependent. Maps like Blistering Sands are unbelievably good for 4gate allins, since Terran relies heavily on bunkers and bio units without stim to defend against 4gates. Break down the back rocks and you have an entirely new attack route. However, maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War are terrible for 4gate allins, since there are tiny tiny chokes that can be easily blocked with units and bunkers and spine crawlers etc....
|
especially weak build in PvZ
The only reason anyone could say it's especially weak in PvZ is because every single zerg from (guessing here) mid gold level to high diamond has had to play against it about.... a trillion times.
|
On January 05 2011 03:22 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote:
4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective oGsMC gisado 3
You're assuming 4gate automatically means all in, which is pretty far from the truth. There's a difference between 4gate pressure into an eventual (but delayed) expansion and 4gate all in while cutting probe production etc.
|
4gate could be considered an allin even if you don't cut probes. If say, your opponent is going for cloakshees and you 4gate him, he's going to win if he holds you off because you won't have an obs ready in time. This is a question of definiton though.
|
A 4 gate is only a true all-in if you cut probes and attack until either you win or lose all your units. Even if you do cut probes, if you can ff their ramp for a while until you get an expo up yourself, then you'll end up at least even. Even a 4 gate with probes getting cut isn't really an all-in unless you sac'ed all your units, as you can build a hefty enough force that you can micro well-enough to hold off most non-detection based pushes. At least long enough to get your expo up and running on most maps, and get the game at least close to being even again.
The thing is most people(like me) don't recognize a lost battle before it begins well enough, so they only find out the 4 gate will fail after they've already lost most of their units, and a big force is pushing at their front door. And then they have nothing to defend with...whereas if that same push came vs the same amount of units you would have had had you not pushed all-in, but you were playing defense...you could have held.
|
On January 05 2011 03:22 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote:
4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective oGsMC gisado 3
what are the m/u's? because in pvp the 4 warp gate is still super effective, but zerg should have little to no problem defending it, if they scout it and understand the timings. in pvt 4 gate can be very effective depending on the map, but if the terran knows whats coming up and bunkers up accordingly they shouldn't have much of a problem. so my apologies a 4 warp gate will work in pvp, and occasionally vs a t/z that doesn't understand they are playing vs an all in, and if they hold they instantly win.
|
4gated my way to 2600 Diamond =D only build i still only know =(
|
On January 05 2011 03:22 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote:
4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective oGsMC gisado 3
Most impressive Chart ive ever seen, stating how ogsMC plays....
|
On January 05 2011 04:15 KillerPlague wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 03:22 ChickenLips wrote:On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote:
4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective oGsMC gisado 3 what are the m/u's? because in pvp the 4 warp gate is still super effective, but zerg should have little to no problem defending it, if they scout it and understand the timings. in pvt 4 gate can be very effective depending on the map, but if the terran knows whats coming up and bunkers up accordingly they shouldn't have much of a problem. so my apologies a 4 warp gate will work in pvp, and occasionally vs a t/z that doesn't understand they are playing vs an all in, and if they hold they instantly win.
Scouting a 4 gate is hard. There's a huge difference between seeing 3 gates and 4 gates - but if you see 3, how do you know you're not missing a 4th? Preparing for a 4 gate and facing a 3 gate expand from a Zealot and 3 Sentries will put you behind and thus you might take a risk and guess 3 gate - thereby losing to a 4 gate.
3 gate with a hidden Stargate can be a bitch as well, you're screwed if your Queens die before the Voidrays. However, getting anti air by getting more Queens or rushing to Hydra are not optimal counters to a 4 gate.
|
herp derp your build is not a threat if i have map hack and u tell me ur timings beforehand.
the problem is the inability to scout a 1 basing protoss. 1 gas 4gate, DT, void, Robo all in all require different responses, you just have to gamble on what your opponent does. NesTea and Fruitdealer died to 4gates from various Protosses. It's a strong build and I wouldn't have a problem with it if it wasnt so hard to scout
|
On the "First Five to complete challenge:" section, you should include the amount of points they gained during those 100 games. It would be interesting to see just how strong this build is on the ladder.
|
On November 24 2010 15:25 haegN wrote:First Five to complete challenge: 1. Drunken.Jedi 2. 3. 4. 5. Hello fellow TL-ers!I am here to present a challenge, just like in a training program or whatever. The Koreans like to practise only one build, so I figured, why not practise 4 gate? Im currently on my 11th match straight 4 gating my way through ladder. I want you to play 100 games as protoss doing only 4 gate. No matter what happens, you MUST 4 gate and attack. After you 4 gate and try to attack you can do whatever you want. Then upload your 100 replays pack and state how many points you were in the ladder before you started your challenge, and how many points you were after (you can also post updates as you go.) How to 4 gateI think most TL-ers know how to 4 gate (or do they? o.0) There are many different variations, I use the one were I stop producing probes when I'm at 20 probes, and only chronoboost the nexus once (at 10 supply). Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108543-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandsHow to respond to this threadHere is a template for all you lazy people on how you respond to this thread: Name/ID: HaegeN.800 Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1767 (0 Bonus pool) Points 63 Games into challenge: 2076 Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Coming SOON ( and not in the blizzard sense) Final NoteI would like to say: "LET THE 4 GATE BEGIN", but it began early beta so I shall only say: Live long and 4 gate! \\//^ EDIT I am doing this because I didnt use to 4 gate that much, and I wanted to see what it would be like  So that question is answered before its asked To the people whining about 4 gate + Show Spoiler +"Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win."
You hate this game don't you?
|
I'm sure you all want to hear my Zerg rant against 4 gate so here it is (it's actually pretty tame):
Has ANYONE in this thread even come close to being 50/50 while ONLY DOING THE SAME STRATEGY EVERY SINGLE GAME? It's amazing how everyone in this threads win % suddenly goes up... how did you guys all get so much better so fast? Oh...
The only problem I have with the 4 gate is that it's about 8 times as hard to stop a 4 gate as it is to do it. I taught my friend who honestly barely knows how to play how to 4 gate and we went 5-0 in our placement matches and we stomped everyone. He barely knows how to move his units...
That being said, it's part of the game so I don't have a real problem with it. I'm just shocked that so many of you would honestly want to play 100 straight games of only using one skill-less (exaggerating here obviously) strategy. When I'm 3 bases ahead of the other guy and win, it feels pretty good. When I 4 gate / 7 pool / proxy whatever him... not so much. When I was 12, sure, I would have loved to 4 gate every game but I guess at this point I like earning my wins.
Anyway, go back to 4-gating.
|
I don't really see how it's that big of a deal. So what, a bunch of protoss will be 4gating, it's not like that's anything new lol. I guess a well executed 4gate is hard to stop, but a lot of people also think that 2 spine crawlers is a huge investment while I generally don't believe that is the case. The longer you delay a 4gate from doing its job, which is to quickly kill you off, the more trouble that toss is going to be in. I really don't see how you can expect to defend an expo after you just lost almost all your units in a failed 4gate. It's an all-in like any other, if you lose your army in the beginning of the game then you're pretty much toast unless your opponent lets you macro your way back into the game again. This strategy is decent but the onus is on you to make something happen or else you end up behind, that's why I think in the grand scheme of things it fails against an opponent with solid mechanics who can properly punish you for going for the easy kill.
|
I have to agree that you can 4gate a player and win >50% of the times that you otherwise (non 4gate) would lose >90% of the times.
But that's true in general for all all-ins. Ofcourse you need to know how to macro/micro and multitask.
Anyways, its fun. And a game should be fun. We want to know how far we can go with these builds.
I for example have a 77% win ratio so far with this build which is InSaNe.
Could never imagine. I'll see where it takes me. hopefully done with it soon so i can start macro again .
|
I would love to see the statistics at the end. Personally I hope you all fail, no offense but it's better for this game, but sadly I know that's not going to be the case. My best guess is maybe 60% winrate averaged out among everyone.
|
On January 05 2011 08:28 Vedad wrote:
I have to agree that you can 4gate a player and win >50% of the times that you otherwise (non 4gate) would lose >90% of the times.
But that's true in general for all all-ins. Ofcourse you need to know how to macro/micro and multitask.
I, too, have to agree. At the game's current state and the player's current state cheese will always get you a higher win ratio than non-cheese, even at high diamond levels.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
