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On November 24 2010 12:28 Zerksys wrote:I do think that there's something wrong with zvp, but roaches aren't the problem. Roaches are pretty easily countered in a number of ways that are not all too taxing macro or micro wise for toss. One you don't need 4 robos to go immortals to counter the roaches. Mix like 1 immortal with a couple of stalkers and you can take down MASS amounts of roaches. Also getting a void ray isn't cheesy if you know what you're doing and don't commit to air too much. You always want to leave yourself a way. I think that the actual problem in zvp is that protoss has a hard time dealing with tech switches because the protoss tech tree is divided into 3 sections (stargate, council, and robo tech) once you fully commit to one branch of the tree it is extremely economically taxing to transfer out of it. The zerg and to some extent even the terrans by way of different addons can tech switch pretty easily comparably. For example: zerg can easily plop down a spire and switch right from roach to mutaling without too much effort. The things that counter mutaling ie blinkstalkers, sentries require a large amount of gateways. If the protoss had been spending the entire game building up robos to fend off roaches, then toss has a hard time dealing with mutaling.Toss units were very strong at the beginning of the beta, but it's been nothing other than nerfs after nerfs and even though I think the game is fairly balanced, i think that toss needs one final small buff that gives toss players just an oh so small boost. But then again blizzard is not going to do that because they balance for all levels and toss is winning all the time in bronze and silver league 
Contradictory statements.
Zerg is one of the hardest "tech switching" races. Yah once the building eventually goes down the tech is available, but it's not as though you just have 200/200 available to start your spire tech. In most situations you need to start from 0/0 to get a spire, then wait again until the spire is up to muster enough gas for a full group of mutas/corruptors/whatever. If I can easily place a spire while making roach/ling then you're probably not doing enough to kill off my economy.
You can still do a ton of damage with a mostly gateway + robo army vs most of the Zerg unit compositions anyway. The only way a Protoss could lose is if the Zerg makes 30 mutas somehow then yah your robo tech won't save you, but once again if that's happening you're not doing enough (and for me to have 3k of each resource is laughable).
If anything Protoss players have the edge. They are capable of crippling Zerg armies with abusive amounts of forcefield. Not to mention once the colossi can stand safely behind a sizeable stalker force there's a walking death ball that is extremely difficult to stop. A 100/200 Protoss army can easily rip apart a 175/200 Zerg army with good positioning.
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Stalkers and forcefields (if u can actually micro) are really good vs roaches early game
Immortal stalkers and forcefields are really good vs roaches early midgame
Collosi forcefields and anything are really good vs roaches midgame
Big storm / collosus / sentry / stalker ball in the lategame = FML for zergs.
I don't see why Protoss are QQing so much over roaches when they have plenty of viable options to stack up against them (notice how i didnt say counter) at almost all stages of the game.
If one can use a t1 unit the entire game as a part of their army, their defiantly is something wrong either with the unit, or how blizzard envisioned the counter of the unit to look like.
People need to get out of this retarded as hell T1 T2 T3 mentality cause thats really oversimplified and its not how starcraft works. This isn't your average generic RTS where u can put all units in those categories and have each tier clearly better the previous. One of the cool things about BW thats still very much present in Sc2 is that basic units form the backbone of an army and retain their usefulness throughout the game. Examples from BW:
- Core protoss army in PvT was always zealot dragoon at all stages of the game
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
In sc2 there are a lot of similarities to this, and just saying a T1 unit is broken because it competes with T3 units is criminally oversimplifying the game.
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Not a well-crafted OP, but yes, roaches are too cost-effective against P. I couldn't win PvZ consistently, so I switched to Z. I can't play Z for shit, but ZvP is insanely easy. You just expand while annoying him with speed roaches until he commits to immortals and then pump out a dozen mutas at once and it's game.
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PvZ isn't as bad as you guys think it is.
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On November 24 2010 16:52 guitarizt wrote:
PvZ isn't as bad as you guys think it is.
It probably is if all you can do is 4gate and you get stopped by roaches and lings everytime. im assuming this is where the QQ is coming from
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Watch the recent match between GuineaPig and Junwi. Junwi gets absolutely crushed and made to look silly.
In my experience, Forge FEing tosses who know what they're doing are damn hard to beat. Roaches suck versus this strategy.
There is always a way to solve the matchup; you just need to be creative and stop QQing.
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Is this thread really happening? Seriously one immortal beats like five or six roaches... I don't understand your problem, mass roach is almost a free win. And don't blame your loss on the game when it was your play that sunk you.
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I didn't finish seeing the replay since it was sort of obvious that you would lose when he sniped your expansions with lings, the roaches are NOT your problem, seriously.
You stopped producing probes when your first base was saturated. Don't do that, keep building probes, this way your second and third will be saturated a lot quicker. You went for A LOT of tech without any economy to really suport that tech, stargate, robo and templars on one base will not work. Basically if Z had attacked you with any unit composition you would have lost at that point. I get the feeling that you really didn't have any long term game plan for the game? I might be wrong though...
My advice would be to start using some more stable game plan, like; 2-gate-robo-expand. Fake some pressure, use forcefields to cut his army in halfs and focus on the fundamentals.
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What makes SC awesome is that the t1 units are used even until late game. Complaining that massing a t1 unit throughout the entire game is an argument against how SC is fundamentally designed.
And I'm sure everyone else here has introduced you to the marine.
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Well I appear to disagree with almost every post in this thread. OP try Speedlots and Immortals. Immortals have horrible synergy with Stalkers due to their range being so similar. Use the extra gas to build more Robos and Stargates for tech switches and scout heavily. He will either tech switch or lose because Speedlot/Immortal destroys Roaches. Save some Chronoboosts for that first Immortal and get it before the Observer. Really all you have to worry about is the tech switch and as long as you have the buildings needed already down in sufficient numbers you should be fine.
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You need to protect ( micro ) the Immortal. They have almost the best anti armored dps in the game, but are buggy and low range ( like the dragons u liked so much ).
Protoss can handle mass roaches. I must admit, they can't handle it if they lose all immortal in a fight, zerg will remass too quickly, but it's not like it's impossible to win...
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On November 24 2010 11:43 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:32 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade). i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder? Why are zealots DPS and Zerglings aren't? That's completely arbitrary. Look at DPS:COST. Hell, compare it vs the hydra and zerglings still do way more dps. Ever have a pack of mutalisks engage stalkers, then 40 zerglings come in and start attacking the stalkers? That's effective. If you did it the other way, zerglings first, then the mutas, it'd be a LOT less effective.
I was sort of following, but have to jump in on this. WHY WOULD YOU SEND I MUTAS FIRST and let them get chewed up by the STalkers???
I would rather lose 10 zerglings than 1 muta in most game situation.
WIth muta/ling you in most cases you send in the ZERGLINGS first because they tank the damage for the mutas BECAUSE they COST NO GAS. Losing mutas hurts alot more than losing zerglings. Generally you want to lead with zerglings because there'll be so many targets stalkers can't effectively focus fire. Charge with zerglings to absorb a round of fire and then engage immidiately with mutas.
Engaging with mutas leads to focus firing from stalkers due to mutas being 'juicy targets' (damn expensive for it's straight up combat stats).
Imo, a 'tank' in sc2 is just the unit that can afford to take hits.
I ALSO think zerlings sucks as the main dps simply due to surface area and army engagements (Chokes/FF). They serve a tanking role in most army comp because they're usally up close to other races and prevents their melee units from reaching your range units.
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Protoss DPS is called Colossus.
Everything else seems just to exist to protect Colossi.
Stupid unit/design.
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I'm confused. Don't Terrans make Marines all game? Don't Protoss use Warpgates all game?
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On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
Marines have 5 HP for free, their +1 upgrade is free, they have another upgrade for 10 more HP and medivacs heal 2x as fast as medics did in addition to being able to drop 1 min before anything flying for Zerg is available.
I guess all those subtle differences like 1 zergling being able to kill 1 marine in BW but not SC2 shouldn't apply though, this is called "balance"
On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
Zerglings are hardly devastating at any point of the game in ZvT in SC2. The only things in the terran army that DON'T counter Zerglings are pretty much the Thor (which will still take out 500 minerals worth of lings before it goes down if positioned right), unsieged siege tanks, marauders (positioning and shoot-step micro can work wonders here), and the Viking. Everything else wins vs zerglings.
What a devastating unit...
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On November 24 2010 14:16 kcdc wrote:
Not a well-crafted OP, but yes, roaches are too cost-effective against P. I couldn't win PvZ consistently, so I switched to Z. I can't play Z for shit, but ZvP is insanely easy. You just expand while annoying him with speed roaches until he commits to immortals and then pump out a dozen mutas at once and it's game.
0.0
can you tell me how you manage to float at 1200 minerals and more importantly 1200 gas all while producing upgraded roaches and "annoying" the P with them? because id really like to know how that works.
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On November 24 2010 22:22 Nycaloth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 14:16 kcdc wrote:
Not a well-crafted OP, but yes, roaches are too cost-effective against P. I couldn't win PvZ consistently, so I switched to Z. I can't play Z for shit, but ZvP is insanely easy. You just expand while annoying him with speed roaches until he commits to immortals and then pump out a dozen mutas at once and it's game. 0.0 can you tell me how you manage to float at 1200 minerals and more importantly 1200 gas all while producing upgraded roaches and "annoying" the P with them? because id really like to know how that works.
No one has even begun to explain this. I've asked the very same question twice and no one has touched the reply. It's safe to say that this was a thread that kinda jumped the gun. There's nothing really wrong with the matchup to be honest aside from the fact that the Colossi creates this torrent or blob that moves across the map.
I think a lot of Toss players are taking their frustrations out on Zerg players, when a lot of the trouble is probably in PvT, not ZvP, since the matchup is actually pretty balanced. Yah if you do the wrong build you're going to get your face smashed in, but that's half the game of Starcraft.
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On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
I wanted to revisit how incredibly wrong these thoughts are with some numbers now that I have the time.
In BW, zerglings attacked. 1.875x per marine attack
In SC2, zerglings attack 1.23x per marine attack
In BW, stim cost 25% of a marines hp, was a 100% attack speed increase, this got marines up to 1.06 shots per ling attack
In SC2, stim costs 22 or 18% of a marines hp, is a much smaller % increase, but still gets marines shooting 1.2x per ling attack
In BW, cracklings made a comeback, attacking 1.25x per stimmed marine attack
In SC2, cracklings just don't make the cut. 0.97x per stimmed marine attack
Cry all you want about SC and SC2 being different games, but 2 things are for sure.
1) marines are FAR better than they were in BW
2) zerglings are slightly worse than they were in BW
There's plenty of reason for people to whine about the marine in SC2
Edit: some other fun facts
In BW, it took 1 non-stimmed marine nearly 1.5x as long to kill a zergling as it took a zergling to kill a marine
In SC2, those numbers have flipped to where zerglings now take 20% longer to kill the marine.
Bunker blocking ramps wasn't an option in broodwar as zerglings could fit between two bunkers that were touching.
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On November 24 2010 22:08 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
Marines have 5 HP for free, their +1 upgrade is free, they have another upgrade for 10 more HP and medivacs heal 2x as fast as medics did in addition to being able to drop 1 min before anything flying for Zerg is available. I guess all those subtle differences like 1 zergling being able to kill 1 marine in BW but not SC2 shouldn't apply though, this is called "balance" Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
Zerglings are hardly devastating at any point of the game in ZvT in SC2. The only things in the terran army that DON'T counter Zerglings are pretty much the Thor (which will still take out 500 minerals worth of lings before it goes down if positioned right), unsieged siege tanks, marauders (positioning and shoot-step micro can work wonders here), and the Viking. Everything else wins vs zerglings. What a devastating unit...
The examples I gave were only meant to apply to Sc1, not directly to Sc2...I was just using them as examples of SC deviating from the T1 T2 T3 forumla, not giving similarities to the two games. I think you misinterpreted me.
Either way I don't think you know the game very well...
medivacs heal 2x as fast as medics did in addition to being able to drop 1 min before anything flying for Zerg is available.
Except medics were cheaper and way more abundant than medivacs so theres no comparison. Also the fact that Zerg doesn't get anything flying for "another minute" doesn't mean that much. I don't think too many games were decided on Zerg not being able to shoot down some kind of medivac drop rush. At this stage in the game you're only on 2 bases anyway so as long as u've creeped your main and natural and have zerglings / queens to deal with immediate units its really no problem, especially since Zergs are favoring an early 3rd queen now...
Zerglings are hardly devastating at any point of the game in ZvT in SC2. The only things in the terran army that DON'T counter Zerglings are pretty much the Thor (which will still take out 500 minerals worth of lings before it goes down if positioned right), unsieged siege tanks, marauders (positioning and shoot-step micro can work wonders here), and the Viking. Everything else wins vs zerglings.
lmao....I don't even know where to start with this....
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On November 25 2010 00:46 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
I wanted to revisit how incredibly wrong these thoughts are with some numbers now that I have the time. In BW, zerglings attacked. 1.875x per marine attack In SC2, zerglings attack 1.23x per marine attack In BW, stim cost 25% of a marines hp, was a 100% attack speed increase, this got marines up to 1.06 shots per ling attack In SC2, stim costs 22 or 18% of a marines hp, is a much smaller % increase, but still gets marines shooting 1.2x per ling attack In BW, cracklings made a comeback, attacking 1.25x per stimmed marine attack In SC2, cracklings just don't make the cut. 0.97x per stimmed marine attack Cry all you want about SC and SC2 being different games, but 2 things are for sure. 1) marines are FAR better than they were in BW 2) zerglings are slightly worse than they were in BW There's plenty of reason for people to whine about the marine in SC2 Edit: some other fun facts In BW, it took 1 non-stimmed marine nearly 1.5x as long to kill a zergling as it took a zergling to kill a marine In SC2, those numbers have flipped to where zerglings now take 20% longer to kill the marine. Bunker blocking ramps wasn't an option in broodwar as zerglings could fit between two bunkers that were touching.
Both examples I'm only talking about Brood War....how am I wrong?
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EPT
