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Zerg, the swarm, always there to overwhelm you with numbers. This is a great concept and it's what makes Starcraft special, the different abilities of each race. But when one race can sit there and swarm you with t1 units all game, i feel as if there is something severely lacking in the game.
I understand the idea for the roach. A tanking unit that makes up for the dps dealing zergling for t1. My problem with it is when a zerg can build only roaches, and maybe a few other units, all game and still proceed to victory. If one can use a t1 unit the entire game as a part of their army, their defiantly is something wrong either with the unit, or how blizzard envisioned the counter of the unit to look like.
I will write this from a Protoss perspective as I am not to familiar with zvt
Now there are generally two answers to counter roaches that most people agree with, immortals or air units.
The air units that protoss have at their disposal are void rays, phoenix, and carriers.
Void rays many would consider cheesy, and even if they were voids are easily shutdown by corruptors because he can pump out a few before you reach a certain mass, or if needed he can build hydras.
Phoenix are no ideal counter to roaches because of the energy restriction, and also they are no real counter to the corruptor because of their lack of damage to armored units.
That leaves us with the carrier, the pinnacle of protoss might. Now if it really comes down to me having to mass carriers to win vs roach, there is something wrong with the dynamic of play.
Now most people write now are ready to rage on their keyboards that i should build immortals. That would be a great idea, for it the fact that they come out of the robo bay. Maybe if i sat back and built 4 robos i would be able to match the production of roaches, just maybe. Besides the apparent problem that zerg can pull a complete tech switch on you and run over your immortals (or colossus if you decide you would prefer to build them). The mobility of roaches are quite insane once they get roach speed. With better mobility they can just run circles around you, and this is with just roaches. Add in a few lings and then how is a protoss supposed to keep up with that.
Now don't take my word for it, heres a nice replay of it happening. If it is what blizzard intended for the zerg race, that they stick with t1 units instead of advancing through their tech tree, i guess they succeeded. If not, they better start looking at some changes.
http://www.mediafire.com/?pfquh8087v373e8
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Void rays many would consider cheesy
So that's a reason not to build them, and lose to roaches? Not sure this is the best way of looking at the game 
If making void rays forces zerg to switch from roaches to hydras or air, zerg can obviously not win that game by just massing roaches.
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did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap.
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So you're complaining about Zerg having the mechanics that it was intended to have? Why don't you instead examine your own play rather than claiming imbalance?
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First off, its more expensive to tech to roaches than it is to tech to stalkers and sentries. Which are often core units, nobody complains if you win with gateway units.
Second, roaches need T2 tech to be any real use.
Third, "TX" is a really stupid label, the only one that's really important is hive tech, this isn't wc3 people.
Oh, and the reason roaches are so popular is because hydras and lings are really really easily aand very "hard" countered. (colossus, FF) and only "soft counter" P units. (hydra slightly better than stalker, ling bad vs zealot/sentry, good vs unprotected stalkers, both good against immortals but immortals are just as good as stalkers vs hydra/ling in a big army)
You have to realize zerg has 2 real options, muta/ling and mass roaches, to deal with midgame protoss.
If this is another immortal qq thread, from my experience playing protoss, I've downed 2 robos after scouting no spire (hallucination sure is cheap and low tech) and you don't have to make 4 robos. Having 4 immortals in your army makes a HUGE different, i'm talking you'll be able to take down 20 or more roaches with a gateway army to tank some damage. (Immortals take down like 4 a piece without help, and with guardian shield and zealots/stalkers to tank the insane immortal dps it gets better)
Going gateway vs roach but thinking you somehow need to go pure immortals if that doesn't work makes no sense.
Tech switching isn't that strong, once you commit to roaches, you already have a big enough gateway army to deal with muta and he has to react to your army, mutas aren't strong enough to defend the midgame attack, mutas are supposed to harass and delay that, after the window is gone they aren't that useful past a 200/200 sacrifice and rebuild kind of thing. Hydras would be the normal follow up or hive tech, after which its going to be gateway+immortal+colossus vs hydra/roach/corrptor or ultra.
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On November 24 2010 09:47 Bandino wrote:If one can use a t1 unit the entire game as a part of their army, their defiantly is something wrong either with the unit, or how blizzard envisioned the counter of the unit to look like.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with this. Terran players use Marines for entire games. They never really become "bad". Protoss Zealots and Stalkers are always popular choices too.
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LoveTT just schooled Zenio mass roach with blink stalkers, Colossus and Sentry. I think chargelots, sentry and colossus would do just as well. Place some good ffs and the roach melt very fast. Immortals are only good against small number of roaches. This thread is getting closed soon.
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Your play was just awful during the whole game...
You don't know anything about zerg,you throw your army away and you claim imba when you got clearly outplayed?You can beat mass roaches with gateway units+ colossi while abusing force field.
Also corruptors get countered by void rays.
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On November 24 2010 09:47 Bandino wrote:
If one can use a t1 unit the entire game as a part of their army, their defiantly is something wrong either with the unit, or how blizzard envisioned the counter of the unit to look like.
You're not serious, right? That's how it's always been. That's the whole point of tier 1 units is to be the bread and butter of unit compositions. That's how marine/marauders are, that's how Zealot/stalkers are, and that's how Zerglings/roaches are. :/ I don't understand what you're getting at.
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the protoss late game army tht comes with stalers, chargelots n immos along with a frew colossi is extremely scary,, mass roachs or just T1 units just cant beat tht. The collosus will piss on everything when the immos n chargeltos n takin dmg.
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...
There needs to be a dedicated balance whine/discussion thread that is stickied in the SC2 general section..
Post balance camplaints anywhere else and you feel the mighty wrath of the ban hammer...
So bored of the balance debates when it usually comes down to your oponent simply played better than you :z
EDIT:
could be stickied in strategy too i suppose, just stop these threads from appearing every second day
:r
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On November 24 2010 10:12 Stormfell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 09:47 Bandino wrote:If one can use a t1 unit the entire game as a part of their army, their defiantly is something wrong either with the unit, or how blizzard envisioned the counter of the unit to look like. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with this. Terran players use Marines for entire games. They never really become "bad". Protoss Zealots and Stalkers are always popular choices too.
^^ This. Every race uses 'T1' units basically for the whole game. Sure Zerg can win games with just their ling/roach, but Terran wins game with just their Marines, and Protoss can win games with just their stalkers. If it got late enough in the game, Zerg would be forced to tech up and make an 'end game army' as well.
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Void rays many would consider cheesy, and even if they were voids are easily shutdown by corruptors because he can pump out a few before you reach a certain mass, or if needed he can build hydras.
Ok...firstly why are void rays cheesy? A void ray rush might be cheesy, but just having them isn't. Secondly, not using them just cause other people think they're cheesy is a bad excuse. Does it stop Terrans from using cloaked banshees?
Thirdly, if he has to build hydras/corruptors/whatever then you've stopped him spamming only roaches all game so goal achieved?
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Every unit has something that can beat it. You can't say "he can beat voidrays" and therefore the unit isn't an acceptable strategy. Every unit can be killed reasonably easily by some other unit. By that logic no unit would ever be reasonable to produce.
In general, any time you think a strategy is unfairly good, stop and think - are professionals just using this strategy all the time and winning tournament after tournament with it? If the answer is no, then clearly something else beats it.
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I don't see how Zerg unit design has anything to do with playing a poor MU.....
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Try criticizing your own play before criticizing the game. Even after criticizing your own play, criticize it some more.. Keep doing that and I guarantee that you will find a solution before even having to resort to criticizing the game.
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Its not like Zerg wants to use roach imbalance. They just dont have lot of options. I personally hate roaches, but often you are forced to build them.
Let's take a look at the alternatives:
-Mutalisks: It is the main mid game alternative to roaches. Switching to mutalisks leaves you quite vulnerable, because they are expensive and kinda weak in small numbers.
-Hydras: Have very high DPS, but lack mobility and get CRUSHED by colossus.
-Lings: Easily countered by a lot of zealots, forcefields and colossi. Stuff most protoss have anyways. They are also very expensive on the larva side, so you will need extra hatches to rebuild your army
Roaches on the other hand dont have these problems: You can tech to them fast, they are cheep, mobile with the upgrade, durable, dont need a lot of larva (thus are reinforced fast) and are not countered by standard protoss tech.
You also don't take the upgrades into account: Roaches are only versatile with upgrades which need "T2". Basically it's 3 upgrades you need (Burrow, burrow movement, speed). All three cost time (2 of them come from the same tech structure) and resources.
The thing is: As versatile roaches are, they are not particularly strong against anything. You just need more stuff, as day9 would say and you're fine. Immortals help, but its not like building immortals will "counter" roaches and instantly win you the game.
Stalkers, zealots, marines and marauders work in a somewhat similar fashion. They are core units. Always good to have, useful throughout the game, improveable with upgrades and not too specialised. Would you rather like to have a rock/paper/scissors game where you always have to counter everything with a specific unit to even have a chance? A game full of void rays, reapers, banshees and banelings would be 90% guesswork.
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"You can just mass roaches and straight up win"
Stopped reading right there. Are you serious? The TIER 1 UNIT, 50 MINERALS, starting unit for Terran in equal mineral sized armies past like 6 I think the number was beats roaches WITHOUT combat shield NOR stim pack. P.S.: Roaches have less dps, less overall health when counting shields, and less range than the stalker. Use them with sentries to fight roaches in smaller numbers and have fun. Also: if you're opponent is stupid melee heavy, there's no reason not to get void rays. That's like refusing to build banelings against mass marine because you don't want to seem like baneling bust is the only route.
But as others have said: Tier 1/1.5 units are suppose to be the bread and butter of each race. And they are. Gateway units are needed to win games, plain and simple. If you don't have zerglings and banelings in your army than you best have roaches else you lost. Plain and simple. And if you don't have marines OR marauders than you're just going to get magic boxed.
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On November 24 2010 10:21 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 10:12 Stormfell wrote:On November 24 2010 09:47 Bandino wrote:If one can use a t1 unit the entire game as a part of their army, their defiantly is something wrong either with the unit, or how blizzard envisioned the counter of the unit to look like. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with this. Terran players use Marines for entire games. They never really become "bad". Protoss Zealots and Stalkers are always popular choices too. ^^ This. Every race uses 'T1' units basically for the whole game. Sure Zerg can win games with just their ling/roach, but Terran wins game with just their Marines, and Protoss can win games with just their stalkers. If it got late enough in the game, Zerg would be forced to tech up and make an 'end game army' as well.
listen to these guys. A unit "tier" is an arbitrarily assigned label used as a measure for how fast you can get units of that type. these "tiers" are by no means objective (upgrades anyone? are speed roaches T1 or T2?) and not very comparable between the races, so cut them out of the balance discussions please. all races can mass a given low tech unit and win. P and T can even do so and be safe against air.
Also, im getting tired of this myth of imba fast techswitching. think about this for a minute! Whatever you use to fight the Z roach army, this is the very same army that the techswitch must go up against and "counter". but since the focus on roaches means that the Z will probably have gotten the roach upgrades like speed and +melee attack and +ground carpace and maybe not have focused so much on, say, +air attack and such. so when the switch happens, the Z not only opens up a timing window where his new choice of units will be few in numbers, they also automtically transfer the upgrade advantage to you. also, tech switching is not something you just do, you dont just wiggle your nose and wish upon a star and then a cloud of mutas appears in your base. the Z needs the infrastructure and the resources and you can deny a useful switch by applying adequate pressure. remember, a spire is 8 roaches worth of gas, what do you think is more important when the P army starts knocking on your front door? what you describe will not happen unless you either let it happen or cant stop it from happening, so you are either making a mistake or you are behind already and cant really complain that he proceeded to kill you.
get out of your hard counter mentality.
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On November 24 2010 10:49 Jeffbelittle wrote:
"You can just mass roaches and straight up win"
Stopped reading right there. Are you serious? The TIER 1 UNIT, 50 MINERALS, starting unit for Terran in equal mineral sized armies past like 6 I think the number was beats roaches WITHOUT combat shield NOR stim pack. P.S.: Roaches have less dps, less overall health when counting shields, and less range than the stalker. Use them with sentries to fight roaches in smaller numbers and have fun. Also: if you're opponent is stupid melee heavy, there's no reason not to get void rays. That's like refusing to build banelings against mass marine because you don't want to seem like baneling bust is the only route.
But as others have said: Tier 1/1.5 units are suppose to be the bread and butter of each race. And they are. Gateway units are needed to win games, plain and simple. If you don't have zerglings and banelings in your army than you best have roaches else you lost. Plain and simple. And if you don't have marines OR marauders than you're just going to get magic boxed.
This is not true.
Marines vs Roach measurements were done in a 2:1 ratio and Marines need shield to be competitive. Stim doesn't help all that much, and of course, the larger the army favors the terran.
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As a 2k+ protoss I think mass roach is very strong however you don't need to worry about muta harass which allows you to get the robo. From there you can spam sentry stalker immortals with just enough zealots to nullify any lings. You must make your force fields count and split the roaches in half, but you should be able to deal with them effectively.
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On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap.
What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost.
When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit.
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Terran are so imba, using their tier 1 units for the majority of their army composition. Protoss are so imba, using stalkers and zealots and sentries for the majority of their army composition.
Roaches are hard countered by marauders and immortals. Also by mutalisks in zvz.
I don't understand the post.
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If anything, the race that can just mass one unit and win epically is terran.
Hell, FoxeR went to the GSL finals just making marines.
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On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit.
you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you?
they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder.
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Your general game play in the early game was not bad. I really liked the massive damage you did with those phoenixes, supply blocking your opponent and delaying his push and his drone production.
You might want to work on your late game decision making though. Collosi would have worked great since you saw so many zerglings early on, you had those 4 phoenixes to deal with any more mutalisk shenanigans.
The weirdest thing I saw was when you saw lots of roaches you made more zealots and teched into high templar. In my opinion storm is not that great against lings unless your opponent decides to just a-move you the entire time. Collosi also would have fixed that.
I assume that your mindset was that he was going to continue to make a lot of roach + ling. Might have been able to assume more map control + scouting with those really fast phoenixes.
In all honesty you should have won this game. Your macro was decent and his resources were in excess of 3k.
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did you just describe zerglings as DPS?
Upgraded Zerglings do r-tarded amounts of dps with a full surround.
Especially with Adrenal Glands upgrade.
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On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder.
Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade).
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On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade).
i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder?
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On November 24 2010 11:32 pfods wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade). i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder?
Why are zealots DPS and Zerglings aren't? That's completely arbitrary. Look at DPS:COST. Hell, compare it vs the hydra and zerglings still do way more dps.
Ever have a pack of mutalisks engage stalkers, then 40 zerglings come in and start attacking the stalkers? That's effective. If you did it the other way, zerglings first, then the mutas, it'd be a LOT less effective.
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On November 24 2010 11:43 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:32 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade). i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder? Why are zealots DPS and Zerglings aren't? That's completely arbitrary. Look at DPS:COST. Hell, compare it vs the hydra and zerglings still do way more dps. Ever have a pack of mutalisks engage stalkers, then 40 zerglings come in and start attacking the stalkers? That's effective. If you did it the other way, zerglings first, then the mutas, it'd be a LOT less effective.
"yes, they do damage per second". what is DPS short for? i just said they are DPS, because by definition they have to do damage per second. just like zealots.
i don't understand how this is getting screwed up. they have to do damage per second. even scvs do damage per second. but why do you send them in before, say, your hydras?
do you actually do it because they have high DPS for cost? or do you do it to be cannon fodder so your hydras don't have to be?
replace hydras with any unit if you want.
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On November 24 2010 12:06 pfods wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:43 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 11:32 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade). i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder? Why are zealots DPS and Zerglings aren't? That's completely arbitrary. Look at DPS:COST. Hell, compare it vs the hydra and zerglings still do way more dps. Ever have a pack of mutalisks engage stalkers, then 40 zerglings come in and start attacking the stalkers? That's effective. If you did it the other way, zerglings first, then the mutas, it'd be a LOT less effective. "yes, they do damage per second". what is DPS short for? i just said they are DPS, because by definition they have to do damage per second. just like zealots. i don't understand how this is getting screwed up. they have to do damage per second. even scvs do damage per second. but why do you send them in before, say, your hydras? do you actually do it because they have high DPS for cost? or do you do it to be cannon fodder so your hydras don't have to be? replace hydras with any unit if you want.
I really hope you're trolling and not actually this obtuse.
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If there's one unit in the game that I would label DPS, it's the zergling...
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On November 24 2010 09:47 Bandino wrote:
The air units that protoss have at their disposal are void rays, phoenix, and carriers.
Void rays many would consider cheesy, and even if they were voids are easily shutdown by corruptors because he can pump out a few before you reach a certain mass, or if needed he can build hydras.
Wait, so....
Void rays don't counter roaches because the Z player can make other units?
wat.
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I do think that there's something wrong with zvp, but roaches aren't the problem. Roaches are pretty easily countered in a number of ways that are not all too taxing macro or micro wise for toss. One you don't need 4 robos to go immortals to counter the roaches. Mix like 1 immortal with a couple of stalkers and you can take down MASS amounts of roaches. Also getting a void ray isn't cheesy if you know what you're doing and don't commit to air too much. You always want to leave yourself a way.
I think that the actual problem in zvp is that protoss has a hard time dealing with tech switches because the protoss tech tree is divided into 3 sections (stargate, council, and robo tech) once you fully commit to one branch of the tree it is extremely economically taxing to transfer out of it. The zerg and to some extent even the terrans by way of different addons can tech switch pretty easily comparably. For example: zerg can easily plop down a spire and switch right from roach to mutaling without too much effort. The things that counter mutaling ie blinkstalkers, sentries require a large amount of gateways. If the protoss had been spending the entire game building up robos to fend off roaches, then toss has a hard time dealing with mutaling.
Toss units were very strong at the beginning of the beta, but it's been nothing other than nerfs after nerfs and even though I think the game is fairly balanced, i think that toss needs one final small buff that gives toss players just an oh so small boost. But then again blizzard is not going to do that because they balance for all levels and toss is winning all the time in bronze and silver league 
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On November 24 2010 12:13 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 12:06 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:43 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 11:32 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade). i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder? Why are zealots DPS and Zerglings aren't? That's completely arbitrary. Look at DPS:COST. Hell, compare it vs the hydra and zerglings still do way more dps. Ever have a pack of mutalisks engage stalkers, then 40 zerglings come in and start attacking the stalkers? That's effective. If you did it the other way, zerglings first, then the mutas, it'd be a LOT less effective. "yes, they do damage per second". what is DPS short for? i just said they are DPS, because by definition they have to do damage per second. just like zealots. i don't understand how this is getting screwed up. they have to do damage per second. even scvs do damage per second. but why do you send them in before, say, your hydras? do you actually do it because they have high DPS for cost? or do you do it to be cannon fodder so your hydras don't have to be? replace hydras with any unit if you want. I really hope you're trolling and not actually this obtuse.
good comment, constructive criticism. i like it!
i seriously don't know how no one is reading what i'm typing. it's not exactly revolutionary that zerglings are a cannon fodder unit. i never said they don't do damage.
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On November 24 2010 12:28 pfods wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 12:13 sob3k wrote:On November 24 2010 12:06 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:43 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 11:32 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade). i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder? Why are zealots DPS and Zerglings aren't? That's completely arbitrary. Look at DPS:COST. Hell, compare it vs the hydra and zerglings still do way more dps. Ever have a pack of mutalisks engage stalkers, then 40 zerglings come in and start attacking the stalkers? That's effective. If you did it the other way, zerglings first, then the mutas, it'd be a LOT less effective. "yes, they do damage per second". what is DPS short for? i just said they are DPS, because by definition they have to do damage per second. just like zealots. i don't understand how this is getting screwed up. they have to do damage per second. even scvs do damage per second. but why do you send them in before, say, your hydras? do you actually do it because they have high DPS for cost? or do you do it to be cannon fodder so your hydras don't have to be? replace hydras with any unit if you want. I really hope you're trolling and not actually this obtuse. good comment, constructive criticism. i like it! i seriously don't know how no one is reading what i'm typing. it's not exactly revolutionary that zerglings are a cannon fodder unit. i never said they don't do damage.
When a unit is described as being "DPS" or "cannon fodder" or "tank", you are saying that the units primary purpose is to do one of the following things: deal lots of damage compared to cost, eat lots of damage compared to cost, or... well... eat lots of damage compared to cost? Cannon fodder and tank are technically the same thing, except fodder are high number low health units and tanks are the opposite.
Zerglings have one of the highest DPS to cost ratios in the game. They also melt in five seconds to a lot of lategame army compositions. Therefore, they are DPS. Sure, you can use them to tank damage in certain situations, but they aren't very efficient at it.
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On November 24 2010 12:43 GreatestThreat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 12:28 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 12:13 sob3k wrote:On November 24 2010 12:06 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:43 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 11:32 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade). i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder? Why are zealots DPS and Zerglings aren't? That's completely arbitrary. Look at DPS:COST. Hell, compare it vs the hydra and zerglings still do way more dps. Ever have a pack of mutalisks engage stalkers, then 40 zerglings come in and start attacking the stalkers? That's effective. If you did it the other way, zerglings first, then the mutas, it'd be a LOT less effective. "yes, they do damage per second". what is DPS short for? i just said they are DPS, because by definition they have to do damage per second. just like zealots. i don't understand how this is getting screwed up. they have to do damage per second. even scvs do damage per second. but why do you send them in before, say, your hydras? do you actually do it because they have high DPS for cost? or do you do it to be cannon fodder so your hydras don't have to be? replace hydras with any unit if you want. I really hope you're trolling and not actually this obtuse. good comment, constructive criticism. i like it! i seriously don't know how no one is reading what i'm typing. it's not exactly revolutionary that zerglings are a cannon fodder unit. i never said they don't do damage. When a unit is described as being "DPS" or "cannon fodder" or "tank", you are saying that the units primary purpose is to do one of the following things: deal lots of damage compared to cost, eat lots of damage compared to cost, or... well... eat lots of damage compared to cost? Cannon fodder and tank are technically the same thing, except fodder are high number low health units and tanks are the opposite. Zerglings have one of the highest DPS to cost ratios in the game. They also melt in five seconds to a lot of lategame army compositions. Therefore, they are DPS. Sure, you can use them to tank damage in certain situations, but they aren't very efficient at it.
they do have a high DPS per cost ratio, but i don't make zerglings to deal totally sick damage to my opponent. i make them to surround, hold, and distract for my other units to deal totally sick damage.
i guess i've just been playing zerg wrong for the last 6 years, but it works for me
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On November 24 2010 12:47 pfods wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 12:43 GreatestThreat wrote:On November 24 2010 12:28 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 12:13 sob3k wrote:On November 24 2010 12:06 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:43 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 11:32 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:
[quote]
What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost.
When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade). i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder? Why are zealots DPS and Zerglings aren't? That's completely arbitrary. Look at DPS:COST. Hell, compare it vs the hydra and zerglings still do way more dps. Ever have a pack of mutalisks engage stalkers, then 40 zerglings come in and start attacking the stalkers? That's effective. If you did it the other way, zerglings first, then the mutas, it'd be a LOT less effective. "yes, they do damage per second". what is DPS short for? i just said they are DPS, because by definition they have to do damage per second. just like zealots. i don't understand how this is getting screwed up. they have to do damage per second. even scvs do damage per second. but why do you send them in before, say, your hydras? do you actually do it because they have high DPS for cost? or do you do it to be cannon fodder so your hydras don't have to be? replace hydras with any unit if you want. I really hope you're trolling and not actually this obtuse. good comment, constructive criticism. i like it! i seriously don't know how no one is reading what i'm typing. it's not exactly revolutionary that zerglings are a cannon fodder unit. i never said they don't do damage. When a unit is described as being "DPS" or "cannon fodder" or "tank", you are saying that the units primary purpose is to do one of the following things: deal lots of damage compared to cost, eat lots of damage compared to cost, or... well... eat lots of damage compared to cost? Cannon fodder and tank are technically the same thing, except fodder are high number low health units and tanks are the opposite. Zerglings have one of the highest DPS to cost ratios in the game. They also melt in five seconds to a lot of lategame army compositions. Therefore, they are DPS. Sure, you can use them to tank damage in certain situations, but they aren't very efficient at it. they do have a high DPS per cost ratio, but i don't make zerglings to deal totally sick damage to my opponent. i make them to surround, hold, and distract for my other units to deal totally sick damage. i guess i've just been playing zerg wrong for the last 6 years, but it works for me
Well arguably using them to surround and hold the enemy in position is a totally different class than "cannon fodder" or "DPS", something more akin to crowd control, but... this discussion is all semantics anyway, really.
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On November 24 2010 12:28 Zerksys wrote:I do think that there's something wrong with zvp, but roaches aren't the problem. Roaches are pretty easily countered in a number of ways that are not all too taxing macro or micro wise for toss. One you don't need 4 robos to go immortals to counter the roaches. Mix like 1 immortal with a couple of stalkers and you can take down MASS amounts of roaches. Also getting a void ray isn't cheesy if you know what you're doing and don't commit to air too much. You always want to leave yourself a way. I think that the actual problem in zvp is that protoss has a hard time dealing with tech switches because the protoss tech tree is divided into 3 sections (stargate, council, and robo tech) once you fully commit to one branch of the tree it is extremely economically taxing to transfer out of it. The zerg and to some extent even the terrans by way of different addons can tech switch pretty easily comparably. For example: zerg can easily plop down a spire and switch right from roach to mutaling without too much effort. The things that counter mutaling ie blinkstalkers, sentries require a large amount of gateways. If the protoss had been spending the entire game building up robos to fend off roaches, then toss has a hard time dealing with mutaling.Toss units were very strong at the beginning of the beta, but it's been nothing other than nerfs after nerfs and even though I think the game is fairly balanced, i think that toss needs one final small buff that gives toss players just an oh so small boost. But then again blizzard is not going to do that because they balance for all levels and toss is winning all the time in bronze and silver league
Contradictory statements.
Zerg is one of the hardest "tech switching" races. Yah once the building eventually goes down the tech is available, but it's not as though you just have 200/200 available to start your spire tech. In most situations you need to start from 0/0 to get a spire, then wait again until the spire is up to muster enough gas for a full group of mutas/corruptors/whatever. If I can easily place a spire while making roach/ling then you're probably not doing enough to kill off my economy.
You can still do a ton of damage with a mostly gateway + robo army vs most of the Zerg unit compositions anyway. The only way a Protoss could lose is if the Zerg makes 30 mutas somehow then yah your robo tech won't save you, but once again if that's happening you're not doing enough (and for me to have 3k of each resource is laughable).
If anything Protoss players have the edge. They are capable of crippling Zerg armies with abusive amounts of forcefield. Not to mention once the colossi can stand safely behind a sizeable stalker force there's a walking death ball that is extremely difficult to stop. A 100/200 Protoss army can easily rip apart a 175/200 Zerg army with good positioning.
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Stalkers and forcefields (if u can actually micro) are really good vs roaches early game
Immortal stalkers and forcefields are really good vs roaches early midgame
Collosi forcefields and anything are really good vs roaches midgame
Big storm / collosus / sentry / stalker ball in the lategame = FML for zergs.
I don't see why Protoss are QQing so much over roaches when they have plenty of viable options to stack up against them (notice how i didnt say counter) at almost all stages of the game.
If one can use a t1 unit the entire game as a part of their army, their defiantly is something wrong either with the unit, or how blizzard envisioned the counter of the unit to look like.
People need to get out of this retarded as hell T1 T2 T3 mentality cause thats really oversimplified and its not how starcraft works. This isn't your average generic RTS where u can put all units in those categories and have each tier clearly better the previous. One of the cool things about BW thats still very much present in Sc2 is that basic units form the backbone of an army and retain their usefulness throughout the game. Examples from BW:
- Core protoss army in PvT was always zealot dragoon at all stages of the game
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
In sc2 there are a lot of similarities to this, and just saying a T1 unit is broken because it competes with T3 units is criminally oversimplifying the game.
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Not a well-crafted OP, but yes, roaches are too cost-effective against P. I couldn't win PvZ consistently, so I switched to Z. I can't play Z for shit, but ZvP is insanely easy. You just expand while annoying him with speed roaches until he commits to immortals and then pump out a dozen mutas at once and it's game.
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PvZ isn't as bad as you guys think it is.
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On November 24 2010 16:52 guitarizt wrote:
PvZ isn't as bad as you guys think it is.
It probably is if all you can do is 4gate and you get stopped by roaches and lings everytime. im assuming this is where the QQ is coming from
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Watch the recent match between GuineaPig and Junwi. Junwi gets absolutely crushed and made to look silly.
In my experience, Forge FEing tosses who know what they're doing are damn hard to beat. Roaches suck versus this strategy.
There is always a way to solve the matchup; you just need to be creative and stop QQing.
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Is this thread really happening? Seriously one immortal beats like five or six roaches... I don't understand your problem, mass roach is almost a free win. And don't blame your loss on the game when it was your play that sunk you.
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I didn't finish seeing the replay since it was sort of obvious that you would lose when he sniped your expansions with lings, the roaches are NOT your problem, seriously.
You stopped producing probes when your first base was saturated. Don't do that, keep building probes, this way your second and third will be saturated a lot quicker. You went for A LOT of tech without any economy to really suport that tech, stargate, robo and templars on one base will not work. Basically if Z had attacked you with any unit composition you would have lost at that point. I get the feeling that you really didn't have any long term game plan for the game? I might be wrong though...
My advice would be to start using some more stable game plan, like; 2-gate-robo-expand. Fake some pressure, use forcefields to cut his army in halfs and focus on the fundamentals.
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What makes SC awesome is that the t1 units are used even until late game. Complaining that massing a t1 unit throughout the entire game is an argument against how SC is fundamentally designed.
And I'm sure everyone else here has introduced you to the marine.
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Well I appear to disagree with almost every post in this thread. OP try Speedlots and Immortals. Immortals have horrible synergy with Stalkers due to their range being so similar. Use the extra gas to build more Robos and Stargates for tech switches and scout heavily. He will either tech switch or lose because Speedlot/Immortal destroys Roaches. Save some Chronoboosts for that first Immortal and get it before the Observer. Really all you have to worry about is the tech switch and as long as you have the buildings needed already down in sufficient numbers you should be fine.
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You need to protect ( micro ) the Immortal. They have almost the best anti armored dps in the game, but are buggy and low range ( like the dragons u liked so much ).
Protoss can handle mass roaches. I must admit, they can't handle it if they lose all immortal in a fight, zerg will remass too quickly, but it's not like it's impossible to win...
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On November 24 2010 11:43 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:32 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:30 MaGariShun wrote:On November 24 2010 11:10 pfods wrote:On November 24 2010 11:03 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units.
you got outplayed is all. you suicided your army a couple of times. when you saw his mass ling, you should have made a couple of colossus and some more sentries. you wasted your sentries went you went guardian shield that one time. when he went mass roach, collo would have still helped, with the aid of sentries, etc. even if he burrowed having an observer would have just raped him.
i don't see how what the zerg player was imba or cheap. What on earth are you talking about?? Why would you use zerglings as cannon fodder and not DPS? You can get more HP for their cost in Roaches, and you can't get more DPS for their cost. When their dps:health ratio is the highest in the game... they're not a tanking unit, they're a dps unit. you don't exactly pull zerglings when you send them in for the surround, do you? or micro individual zerglings to keep them alive mid/late game, do you? they're fodder. any unit you make 40 or 50 of and 1a is fodder. Because you dont micro a unit it is a tank? You dont micro lings, because they are impossible to micro in high numbers, not because you don't care. It doesnt change the fact that they do sick DPS with upgrades (don't quote me on this, but I reckon to have read somewhere around here that they even surpass hydras with glands upgrade). i'm not saying they're tanks. i'm saying i don't consider them DPS like hydras. yes, they do damage per second because they are in fact a combat unit. but they're still cannon fodder. zealots mid/late game are still DPS, but would you argue in a 200/200 food army, they're anything but cannon fodder? Why are zealots DPS and Zerglings aren't? That's completely arbitrary. Look at DPS:COST. Hell, compare it vs the hydra and zerglings still do way more dps. Ever have a pack of mutalisks engage stalkers, then 40 zerglings come in and start attacking the stalkers? That's effective. If you did it the other way, zerglings first, then the mutas, it'd be a LOT less effective.
I was sort of following, but have to jump in on this. WHY WOULD YOU SEND I MUTAS FIRST and let them get chewed up by the STalkers???
I would rather lose 10 zerglings than 1 muta in most game situation.
WIth muta/ling you in most cases you send in the ZERGLINGS first because they tank the damage for the mutas BECAUSE they COST NO GAS. Losing mutas hurts alot more than losing zerglings. Generally you want to lead with zerglings because there'll be so many targets stalkers can't effectively focus fire. Charge with zerglings to absorb a round of fire and then engage immidiately with mutas.
Engaging with mutas leads to focus firing from stalkers due to mutas being 'juicy targets' (damn expensive for it's straight up combat stats).
Imo, a 'tank' in sc2 is just the unit that can afford to take hits.
I ALSO think zerlings sucks as the main dps simply due to surface area and army engagements (Chokes/FF). They serve a tanking role in most army comp because they're usally up close to other races and prevents their melee units from reaching your range units.
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Protoss DPS is called Colossus.
Everything else seems just to exist to protect Colossi.
Stupid unit/design.
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I'm confused. Don't Terrans make Marines all game? Don't Protoss use Warpgates all game?
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On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
Marines have 5 HP for free, their +1 upgrade is free, they have another upgrade for 10 more HP and medivacs heal 2x as fast as medics did in addition to being able to drop 1 min before anything flying for Zerg is available.
I guess all those subtle differences like 1 zergling being able to kill 1 marine in BW but not SC2 shouldn't apply though, this is called "balance"
On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
Zerglings are hardly devastating at any point of the game in ZvT in SC2. The only things in the terran army that DON'T counter Zerglings are pretty much the Thor (which will still take out 500 minerals worth of lings before it goes down if positioned right), unsieged siege tanks, marauders (positioning and shoot-step micro can work wonders here), and the Viking. Everything else wins vs zerglings.
What a devastating unit...
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On November 24 2010 14:16 kcdc wrote:
Not a well-crafted OP, but yes, roaches are too cost-effective against P. I couldn't win PvZ consistently, so I switched to Z. I can't play Z for shit, but ZvP is insanely easy. You just expand while annoying him with speed roaches until he commits to immortals and then pump out a dozen mutas at once and it's game.
0.0
can you tell me how you manage to float at 1200 minerals and more importantly 1200 gas all while producing upgraded roaches and "annoying" the P with them? because id really like to know how that works.
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On November 24 2010 22:22 Nycaloth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 14:16 kcdc wrote:
Not a well-crafted OP, but yes, roaches are too cost-effective against P. I couldn't win PvZ consistently, so I switched to Z. I can't play Z for shit, but ZvP is insanely easy. You just expand while annoying him with speed roaches until he commits to immortals and then pump out a dozen mutas at once and it's game. 0.0 can you tell me how you manage to float at 1200 minerals and more importantly 1200 gas all while producing upgraded roaches and "annoying" the P with them? because id really like to know how that works.
No one has even begun to explain this. I've asked the very same question twice and no one has touched the reply. It's safe to say that this was a thread that kinda jumped the gun. There's nothing really wrong with the matchup to be honest aside from the fact that the Colossi creates this torrent or blob that moves across the map.
I think a lot of Toss players are taking their frustrations out on Zerg players, when a lot of the trouble is probably in PvT, not ZvP, since the matchup is actually pretty balanced. Yah if you do the wrong build you're going to get your face smashed in, but that's half the game of Starcraft.
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On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
I wanted to revisit how incredibly wrong these thoughts are with some numbers now that I have the time.
In BW, zerglings attacked. 1.875x per marine attack
In SC2, zerglings attack 1.23x per marine attack
In BW, stim cost 25% of a marines hp, was a 100% attack speed increase, this got marines up to 1.06 shots per ling attack
In SC2, stim costs 22 or 18% of a marines hp, is a much smaller % increase, but still gets marines shooting 1.2x per ling attack
In BW, cracklings made a comeback, attacking 1.25x per stimmed marine attack
In SC2, cracklings just don't make the cut. 0.97x per stimmed marine attack
Cry all you want about SC and SC2 being different games, but 2 things are for sure.
1) marines are FAR better than they were in BW
2) zerglings are slightly worse than they were in BW
There's plenty of reason for people to whine about the marine in SC2
Edit: some other fun facts
In BW, it took 1 non-stimmed marine nearly 1.5x as long to kill a zergling as it took a zergling to kill a marine
In SC2, those numbers have flipped to where zerglings now take 20% longer to kill the marine.
Bunker blocking ramps wasn't an option in broodwar as zerglings could fit between two bunkers that were touching.
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On November 24 2010 22:08 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
Marines have 5 HP for free, their +1 upgrade is free, they have another upgrade for 10 more HP and medivacs heal 2x as fast as medics did in addition to being able to drop 1 min before anything flying for Zerg is available. I guess all those subtle differences like 1 zergling being able to kill 1 marine in BW but not SC2 shouldn't apply though, this is called "balance" Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
Zerglings are hardly devastating at any point of the game in ZvT in SC2. The only things in the terran army that DON'T counter Zerglings are pretty much the Thor (which will still take out 500 minerals worth of lings before it goes down if positioned right), unsieged siege tanks, marauders (positioning and shoot-step micro can work wonders here), and the Viking. Everything else wins vs zerglings. What a devastating unit...
The examples I gave were only meant to apply to Sc1, not directly to Sc2...I was just using them as examples of SC deviating from the T1 T2 T3 forumla, not giving similarities to the two games. I think you misinterpreted me.
Either way I don't think you know the game very well...
medivacs heal 2x as fast as medics did in addition to being able to drop 1 min before anything flying for Zerg is available.
Except medics were cheaper and way more abundant than medivacs so theres no comparison. Also the fact that Zerg doesn't get anything flying for "another minute" doesn't mean that much. I don't think too many games were decided on Zerg not being able to shoot down some kind of medivac drop rush. At this stage in the game you're only on 2 bases anyway so as long as u've creeped your main and natural and have zerglings / queens to deal with immediate units its really no problem, especially since Zergs are favoring an early 3rd queen now...
Zerglings are hardly devastating at any point of the game in ZvT in SC2. The only things in the terran army that DON'T counter Zerglings are pretty much the Thor (which will still take out 500 minerals worth of lings before it goes down if positioned right), unsieged siege tanks, marauders (positioning and shoot-step micro can work wonders here), and the Viking. Everything else wins vs zerglings.
lmao....I don't even know where to start with this....
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On November 25 2010 00:46 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 13:01 SubtleArt wrote:
- TvZ marines were your core units early game, midgame, and lategame and no1 cried "wtf tier1 unit fights hive wtf imba"
- ZvT and ZvP zerglings were devastating at any point in the game
I wanted to revisit how incredibly wrong these thoughts are with some numbers now that I have the time. In BW, zerglings attacked. 1.875x per marine attack In SC2, zerglings attack 1.23x per marine attack In BW, stim cost 25% of a marines hp, was a 100% attack speed increase, this got marines up to 1.06 shots per ling attack In SC2, stim costs 22 or 18% of a marines hp, is a much smaller % increase, but still gets marines shooting 1.2x per ling attack In BW, cracklings made a comeback, attacking 1.25x per stimmed marine attack In SC2, cracklings just don't make the cut. 0.97x per stimmed marine attack Cry all you want about SC and SC2 being different games, but 2 things are for sure. 1) marines are FAR better than they were in BW 2) zerglings are slightly worse than they were in BW There's plenty of reason for people to whine about the marine in SC2 Edit: some other fun facts In BW, it took 1 non-stimmed marine nearly 1.5x as long to kill a zergling as it took a zergling to kill a marine In SC2, those numbers have flipped to where zerglings now take 20% longer to kill the marine. Bunker blocking ramps wasn't an option in broodwar as zerglings could fit between two bunkers that were touching.
Both examples I'm only talking about Brood War....how am I wrong?
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Calgary25970 Posts
I'm going to close this because the OP doesn't prove any of his claims, and worse, doesn't claim anything worthwhile.
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Lings are often used as cannon fodder because they're no gas and plenty of HP. If you can somehow use their DPS as well (you can't against big armies, forcefields and every terran unit except for thors don't allow that) then they're fucking fantastic.
Marines are an example of a unit that soaks slightly less damage and does less DPS (than 2 zerglings even with stim I think) but the range allows them to become ridiculously good, that's a good indicator for the potential of the zergling if you can use it to get good damage out as well.
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i dont think people include the cost of making roaches viable (upgrades) when making posts like this. z players spend the same amount of resources upgrading a "tier 1" unit that a p player does getting colossus tech.. does that add any perspective ? i would sure hope after spending that kind of investment on my unit that it would be able to hold its own with gateway units. i mean does that not seem fair ?
also voids fair well against corrupters. corrupters only gain bonus damage to massive units not armored, muta are the better air counter to voids.
also dont think making void rays makes you a cheesey player. it doesnt, most people will say its "cheese" because they just dont want to have to deal with them.
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Why is this thread still alive?
" If one can use a t1 unit the entire game as a part of their army, their defiantly (Definitely?) is something wrong either with the unit, or how blizzard envisioned the counter of the unit to look like."
What about zealots, marines, stalkers, and marauders?
Those are either the same tier as roach or lower and are seen the entire game. If anything needs balance it's marines but even then, every race has a decent counter to them.
Pointless QQ is pointless...
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Lol, all I see is someone who got outplayed, and throw himself on a rather small trend to say "OOP". Funny how you say tech switch as it was easy to get the economy to do just that.
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Yes this is a douchebag reply, no I didnt read whole post.
But seriously after like half a year of 4warp-gate all-ins being quite effective, you complain after a few weeks of roach not sucking anymore?
rant over.
To be fair, yes roach might be a bit strong, yes there are already a TON of threads about it, use search function + reply instead of making another thread, and yes it is still way to soon to know if it actually is OP or if P simply need to reevaluate most of the openers in PvZ.
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I wanted to revisit how incredibly wrong these thoughts are with some numbers now that I have the time.
In BW, zerglings attacked. 1.875x per marine attack
In SC2, zerglings attack 1.23x per marine attack
In BW, stim cost 25% of a marines hp, was a 100% attack speed increase, this got marines up to 1.06 shots per ling attack
In SC2, stim costs 22 or 18% of a marines hp, is a much smaller % increase, but still gets marines shooting 1.2x per ling attack
In BW, cracklings made a comeback, attacking 1.25x per stimmed marine attack
In SC2, cracklings just don't make the cut. 0.97x per stimmed marine attack
Cry all you want about SC and SC2 being different games, but 2 things are for sure.
1) marines are FAR better than they were in BW
2) zerglings are slightly worse than they were in BW
There's plenty of reason for people to whine about the marine in SC2
Edit: some other fun facts
In BW, it took 1 non-stimmed marine nearly 1.5x as long to kill a zergling as it took a zergling to kill a marine
In SC2, those numbers have flipped to where zerglings now take 20% longer to kill the marine.
Bunker blocking ramps wasn't an option in broodwar as zerglings could fit between two bunkers that were touching.
he was using an example of how certain t1 units in bw were strong throughout thew game and that that is how sc works as compared to toehr RTS. hes not saying lings are THAT unit in sc2. That whole rant u gave was pointless because u strawmanned the entire argument. basically, you created an argument that the poster did not make and shot it down.
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On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
...did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units...
Zerglings are DPS. Let's look at the stats:
Damage: 5; Cooldown: .696; DPS: 7.18;
Zergling DPS per mineral: .287
Compared to the roach:
DPS per mineral (no accounting for gas cost): .107
How about the hydralisk, which is considered to be a support unit gotten for it's DPS?
DPS per mineral (no accounting for gas cost): .144
In terms of mineral cost, zerglings do TWICE the amount of raw DPS that those minerals would do when spent on hydralisks, a DPS unit, without even considering the resource investment of gas.
EDIT: If you want to consider food as the determinant instead of minerals, it changes to:
Zerglings (2 food worth): 28.72 DPS
Hydralisk (2 food worth): 14.45 DPS
Of course, this isn't considering upgrades, but zerglings actually scale well with upgrades (including adrenal glands, since you mentioned late game) considering their cost. It's also not considering the fact that in some cases (like against siege tanks), zerglings can actually cause more DPS through friendly-fire splash or badly placed storms. It's just another thing to consider.
Again, it's also true that roach & hydra have higher DPS uptime due to range, but it's hard to quantify that. I just wanted to dispel the notion that zerglings are only there to take hits -- it's not true, since once they're actually in range (and being the fastest ground unit in the game, that's not TOO hard), they do more DPS than most other "DPS" units.
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On November 25 2010 06:25 Toxigen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 09:58 pfods wrote:
...did you just describe zerglings as DPS? they're cannon fodder, even late game their role is simply cannon fodder and distraction for actual DPS units... Zerglings are DPS. Let's look at the stats: Damage: 5; Cooldown: .696; DPS: 7.18; Zergling DPS per mineral: .287 Compared to the roach: DPS per mineral (no accounting for gas cost): .107 How about the hydralisk, which is considered to be a support unit gotten for it's DPS? DPS per mineral (no accounting for gas cost): .144 In terms of mineral cost, zerglings do TWICE the amount of raw DPS that those minerals would do when spent on hydralisks, a DPS unit, without even considering the resource investment of gas. Of course, this isn't considering upgrades, but zerglings actually scale well with upgrades (including adrenal glands, since you mentioned late game) considering their cost. It's also not considering the fact that in some cases (like against siege tanks), zerglings can actually cause more DPS through friendly-fire splash or badly placed storms. It's just another thing to consider.
Well I agree that lings are the dps units, but in reallity their damage per minerals is really low cause they die to everything so easily, especially in late game.
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the point is:
even though lings may do a lot of DPS or per mineral or per food or whatever, but:
1.- comparing units in a vacuum does not mean anything, in real situations zerglings may be powerful damage dealers in low food battles, but they dont scale well with army size since their damage dealing potential is limited by the surface area that the enemy exposes to them and
2.- even though they may deal good damage, many players dont get lings for the purpose of dealing damage but rather for swamping the enemy army and diverting attention from the more expensive units.
can we either get back on topic or lock the thread?
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Hey I'm the Zerg player in this replay!
I just think your decision to go HT when you scouted my mass roaches was questionable. It would be the equivalent of me going mass roaches when I scout you go mass immortal. And while I agree I played relatively sloppy, I don't think roaches are "OP" since the zerg really has to have a huge economy (and tons of larva) to execute this. Additionally, I maintained a superior economy for the entire game, which doesn't help your case.
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EPT
