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On November 10 2010 13:40 Crichton wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 13:16 Dfgj wrote:On November 10 2010 11:54 DyEnasTy wrote:On November 10 2010 11:49 silencesc wrote:Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused. On November 10 2010 11:41 Sabu113 wrote:
Wtf.
Just saw the patch notes. Really disappointed.
Bleh. I guess I should be fair and give them more time but cmon. PvT changes they can do that without affecting the GSL finals. This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units. edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME. well blizzard said there would be changes to marauder stim, and templar storm. im expecting some kind of nerf on both. its mentioned in one of the state of the game podcasts. and was on the sc2 site. edit: and they fixed thors so they DONT target medivacs if theres a combat unit they can shoot first. Didn't bliz say they thought marauder stim was fine, but marine stim was questionable, at Blizzcon? Or have we heard further word? What they said was that Marauder stim was not cost-effective. You don't do enough extra damage to make up for the injury you cause to your own units. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, though, because it's not like Marauders need a buff. I think it's good that overeager stimmers can often kill themselves off for the sake of a few extra DPS.
Oh wow, I bursted out laughing while reading this. I personally think that TvZ is in a great shape at the moment and they should work on balancing PvT late/earlygame so that they wouldn't be so lopsided, but I really would love to see them buff Marauder stim for the total outbreak on their forums. xD
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On November 10 2010 11:49 silencesc wrote:
Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused.
This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units.
edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME.
Yeah, patch notes *say* Thor, but what actually changed is *all* units that can target both air and ground... Medivacs are now lower priority than combat units, for all units. Not just a TvT affecting change at all.
I don't care too much either way about the change itself - it's probably a slight Protoss nerf (thus maintaining the record) because the deathball vs MMM will now do lower effective dps unless you micro the stalkers onto the medivacs..
What concerns me more is *how did the patch notes get this wrong?* Did they not test what they're changing on the rest of the game? Is this what led to the Phoenix bug last time? This gives me no confidence we won't see bugs like that again...
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On November 10 2010 13:47 chalice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 13:40 Crichton wrote:What they said was that Marauder stim was not cost-effective. You don't do enough extra damage to make up for the injury you cause to your own units. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, though, because it's not like Marauders need a buff. I think it's good that overeager stimmers can often kill themselves off for the sake of a few extra DPS. i'm pretty sure that when they said this it was in reference to one of the changes that they were testing, not the way marauder stim works currently in the game
You may be right. I'm looking for the actual quote I'd heard from BlizzCon, but I can't find it. What I see on Bnet Community is this, as part of an article on community feedback:
When talking with the community, a common perception is that marauders are too powerful and their Stimpacks need to be nerfed. When running scenarios in Make Combat, it appears that marauder Stim isn’t overpowered and the terrans end up nearly evenly matched with zerg.
source: BlizzCon 2010 Panel: StarCraft II Multiplayer
What I understand from that is: "the community thinks that Marauder stim is OP, but it isn't, based on our testing."
But then they go on to say:
Make Combat simulations also show the developers that marine Stimpacks are very powerful; however, it may be that marauders are acting as shields for the marines behind them. So is it that marauder health is too high? Or are marine Stimpacks are too powerful? We still don't know -- but we’re always looking for answers to questions like these.
source: BlizzCon 2010 Panel: StarCraft II Multiplayer
I'm really not sure what they're saying. Are they saying Marine stim is OP when combined with Marauder meat-shields?
It's really hard to tell what they're trying to say because the it reads like it was written by one of my ESL students: "Are marine Stimpacks are too powerful?"
Hopefully we'll see an actual interview with the balance team soon that can let us know in a more concise and grammatically-correct way what the balance team is thinking about stim at this time.
Until then, I'll keep looking to find that quote that I'm fairly sure I heard that said that Marauder stim wasn't cost-effective.
On a seperate topic:
Yeah, patch notes *say* Thor, but what actually changed is *all* units that can target both air and ground... Medivacs are now lower priority than combat units, for all units. Not just a TvT affecting change at all.
So my Stalkers will stop targeting Medivacs? Sweet Jesus, that makes me happy. I only have so much APM, it was getting exhausting trying to make sure that my Stalkers only shot Medivacs when I wanted them to.
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The big question now is whether or not the patch notes were worded TERRIBLY, or whether or not the Medivac change is a "bug" and going to be changed in 2 weeks to just effect the Thor.
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On November 10 2010 13:48 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 12:18 dcemuser wrote:On November 10 2010 12:05 silencesc wrote:On November 10 2010 11:58 Eminent Rising wrote:if toss gets nerfed again i'll switch to terran for good. my heart can only take so much  my sentiments kinda exactly, cept Ill join the swarm. God speed toss buddy. It's funny to see this across all the races. Terran users are talking about switching to Zerg, Zerg users switching to Protoss, Protoss users switching to Terran. The grass really always is greener, I guess. The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region). Honestly, I think the game needs a few balance tweaks here and there in certain matchups (PvT), but overall it is fine. As pros have proven, you can literally win any tournament with any race. The balance is not broken to the level where it needs to be QQ'd about in every forum thread known to man-kind, and it is certainly not broken enough to switch races. One thing is for certain, Starcraft 2 is a hell of a lot more balanced than Starcraft 1 was 3 months after release. Brb, going to 4-pool autowin... 1998 for the win. I think you're misunderstanding people's reasons for switching races. Before the roach range buff, the warpgate cooldown nerf, and zealot build time increase, Protoss could be really, really agressive early game and still expand behind the agression. Now, with mass roach early game and fewer gateway units available, I've been forced to 2gate robo into expand and defend until there are a nice number of collosi out, in other words: play very passively. This isn't my style. I'd switch races not because I think that protoss is "less powerful" than they, nor because I think that a certain composition for another race "counters" standard protoss openings, but merely because I like to be more agressive and cute with my play, and at least right now I can't do that with toss until late gate DT/HT are out. I wasn't talking about balance, I was talking about play style. Edit: Have you seen a protoss in the RO8 in gsl1? or in the RO4 for gsl 2? In fact, what's the last tournament a protoss won? The problem is that the role of protoss has changed from being about putting on lots of pressure to force a certain tech tree with gateway units, then throwing down stargate/robo tech to counter that, to turtle until collosi with range pop, then get stomped by a mobile MMM or muta bling ball: no one has figured out how to change their style to match what blizzard has warped protoss into. edit to edit: Except Liquid`Tyler. His phoenixes make me smile.
Protoss won the blizzcon 2010
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yea i would like to have seen a little work done on toss it would be nice to making something other than phoenixes in PvZ.
also i wouldnt be surprised with another patch coming soon. the GSL 2 finals are soon and blizzard definitely doesnt want to have any patch bugs floating around during that or login problems. someone else said this on first page and definite validity to that.
but yea protoss could use a little tweaking kind of been ignored in most patches minus the voidray.
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"This unit will now prioritize attacking ground combat units over Medivacs."
so overlords etc will still be prioritized? -_-
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Pretend it never existed and voila, you are back to your happy self.
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On November 10 2010 20:21 101TFP wrote:
"This unit will now prioritize attacking ground combat units over Medivacs."
so overlords etc will still be prioritized? -_-
Other non-combat units never were prioritized to begin with, am I right?
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On November 10 2010 12:18 dcemuser wrote:
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The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region).
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Hmm.. The lasts statistics I saw* had Terran at 56% win vs Protoss which was giving them an indication they might want to do something. On the other hand interviews with Protoss pro-gamers gave them an inconclusive answer.
*It's a couple of weeks ago so they might have release some updated statistics
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Hmm.. The lasts statistics I saw* had Terran at 56% win vs Protoss which was giving them an indication they might want to do something. On the other hand interviews with Protoss pro-gamers gave them an inconclusive answer.
Actually, it said Protoss has a 56 winrate over Terran on the US server...
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On November 10 2010 20:31 nihlon wrote:Pretend it never existed and voila, you are back to your happy self.
Tried it and didn't work for me - because now bnet always logs me off when I watch "old" replays, man this is annoying just because of such a redundant bugfix.
Well, I guess we won't see a "real" balance patch anytime soon when blizz felt they have to release this fix with a seperate patch "now"....if they intended to release a balance-patch after the GSL-finals, they could've easily waited with this one too, I suppose.
EDIT: also fyi, on blizzcon blizz said that marine-stim was indeed extremely powerful in their opinion and they found marauder-stim to be ok - what they obviously missed in their "make combat" was the fact that marauder-stim is strong because of the added speed which makes stimmed marauder-kiting (including maybe even some colossi-sniping) terribly threatening.
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On November 10 2010 21:00 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 12:18 dcemuser wrote:
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The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region).
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Hmm.. The lasts statistics I saw* had Terran at 56% win vs Protoss which was giving them an indication they might want to do something. On the other hand interviews with Protoss pro-gamers gave them an inconclusive answer. *It's a couple of weeks ago so they might have release some updated statistics
There is a recent thread listing match up % for diamond in all regions, and protoss is 55-45 vs terran in NA but reversed in EU and Korea.
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imho they shouldn't patch at all if there are so minor changes.
sure the thor change will change tvt a bit, but its very subtile.
need chat channels ... NOW!
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On November 10 2010 21:31 leveller wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 21:00 blackbrrd wrote:On November 10 2010 12:18 dcemuser wrote:
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The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region).
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Hmm.. The lasts statistics I saw* had Terran at 56% win vs Protoss which was giving them an indication they might want to do something. On the other hand interviews with Protoss pro-gamers gave them an inconclusive answer. *It's a couple of weeks ago so they might have release some updated statistics There is a recent thread listing match up % for diamond in all regions, and protoss is 55-45 vs terran in NA but reversed in EU and Korea.
I don't trust those adjusted win-percentages in the slightest - I mean, all they can possibly filter out is the "favoured/non-favoured" and the bonus-pool. There's no way to tell if some players are indeed "equally skilled". Beside that, who knows, maybe protoss is still ridiculously overpowered from bronze to gold because you don't need any tactical or strategical knowledge to execute a 4-gate?
Or maybe zerg is OP in bronze because you can probably win 70-80% of your matches there with 6-pools a-moving lings, so all it takes for a bronze-player is to realize that this build exists?
Also maybe terran is OP in high diamond because it requires a much higher theoretical knowledge for protoss to get the right unit-composition to survive early and transition safely into colossi, while terrans don't have to "think" that much about what they need to build when?
We will never know. Blizz will never be able to convince me, that they can compare the matchups while completely negating player skill.
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So Blizzard goes ahead and patch priority so that medivacs don't get autokilled when they run in front of an army in big fights, but they leave the glaring issues of PFs and repairing SCVs alone. Looks like Blizz needs to reexamine its own priorities.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
All this to make watching replays harder?
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the comments on battlenet are pretty funny lol. people complaining about balance though they havent even played their placement matches.
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On November 10 2010 13:56 Paradice wrote:
Yeah, patch notes *say* Thor, but what actually changed is *all* units that can target both air and ground... Medivacs are now lower priority than combat units, for all units. Not just a TvT affecting change at all.
That's actually not too bad, I pretty much want my stalkers attacking his vikings anyway.
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EPT
