I think not making balance changes for a while is actually the right thing to do, but then why bother to patch? A desync issue? Thor targeting priority? New categories? Why bother. Include it with the next real patch, which they are pushing out at a frantic pace.
On November 09 2010 11:00 Wolf wrote: Sounds pretty silly. I was hoping that they would make it so that you can actually kill thors when your opponent thor rushes.
Or kill the workers keeping the Thor at 95%+ health.
Sometimes they just have a few fixes that they can easily throw out there, and blizzard just decided to just patch them immediatly instead of saving all those smaller fixes for one big patch like some other company's do.
More auto AI tweaking.... not a fan of this at all. If they reverted how units react/prioritize in Broodwar I would be much more happy(for majority anyway.) Seriously, who thought Auto-Aiming tanks was a GOOD idea?
Also, Protoss didn't get nerfed so I don't think it is a real patch.
This man speaks the truth.
[sarcasm] Also, this patch destroys the game, the world, and my social life, throws nuns off of piers, and makes everything in the entire world imbalanced, including kittens, tea, bacon, and Swedish people named Dave. Blizzard is clearly out-of-touch and/or actively out to destroy the game. After this patch Protoss, Zerg, and Terran players will never be able to win a game again.
On November 09 2010 11:18 Slardarxt wrote: More auto AI tweaking.... not a fan of this at all. If they reverted how units react/prioritize in Broodwar I would be much more happy(for majority anyway.) Seriously, who thought Auto-Aiming tanks was a GOOD idea?
Tanks? no.
Thor? Yes. All units should attack with their highest DPS attack form if available.. Thors shooting missiles at a medivac every 3 seconds is a waste of time and damage xD
I usually play on the SEA sever but was playing on the NA server. quit the game, did some work. cam back in and changed region back to SEA and now its just crashes on startup.
So I'm assuming this is patch related (as it didn't happen before) but I'm yet to actually get the patch so confused muchly.
(slightly unrelated but slightly related)
Is anyone else experiencing any problems with the new patch on SEA servers?
To everybody who is wondering if this Thor change means Medivacs or all dropships or other such things, it probably just means Medivacs.
Just tested our good old 1.1.2 in a unit tester.
Medivacs are normally a higher attack priority for stuff that shoots ground and air, because they heal and killing them first is more efficient than killing the ground unit with the Medivac healing it.
However, Thors 1 shot Marines, so the Medivac never gets to heal anything. But the Medivac still has a higher attack priority. On top of that, it's Armored, so it's very hard for the Thor to kill it.
I just tested 1 Medivac with 8 Marines vs. 1 Thor, moving the Medivac right up to the Thor and dropping Marines next to him 1 at a time. The Thor only shoots at the Medivac, the Marines kill it, and the Thor dies with the Medivac at about 30% HP. This is obviously stupid, so a pretty good change overall.
The Thor will not target the other dropships over attacking units. Medivacs are special.
As for the patch, I was expecting more, but still good. More custom game filters is appreciated.
On November 09 2010 11:31 John Madden wrote: Is there a manual patch? Apparently theres a patcher problem which is why SEA bros can't start up.
This is really frustrating! I can't even get onto NA because I can't open SC2 now
Anyone who knows of a manual patcher please help out here. Or if anyone on SEA is actually able to get on ?
EDIT: Just went into my SC2 folder and tried to run the repair file. Can't connect to the B.Net servers it seems to be saying. Gonna give it another run post-Day[9] daily and see if the server connection issues are resolved.
On November 09 2010 11:50 SavageReborn wrote: Hey all, I found a fix which works for me, download the manual patch from: here and you should be good! (currently on SEA atm, and it's working!)
On November 09 2010 12:06 NinjaWaffle wrote: Are people seriously bitching about there not being a Protoss nerf or are they just joking..? Because seriously, no.
it's a joke that protoss has been nerfed every patch thus far
People complain about no major patch, but to me it is a positive thing. It's way to early imo to do another big patch, we've maybe started seeing past the dust a bit, but the game isn't in a terrible place atm, so rather they take their time and do a careful tuning than a random "hmm does this work?"
On November 09 2010 11:00 Wolf wrote: Sounds pretty silly. I was hoping that they would make it so that you can actually kill thors when your opponent thor rushes.
Or kill the workers keeping the Thor at 95%+ health.
Yeah, while the Thor + marines kill the rest of your army. Auto-repair needs to be fixed.
On November 09 2010 12:13 SC.Shifty wrote: so...why was thor having a medivac priority over ground targets a problem?
oh right its not fair for the thor to be the same as every other unit.
You are right, there isn't any other unit in this game that can attack both ground and air units while having completely distinct attacks for each of them. And it isn't even an issue that affects anything beyond TvT mirror matches, you're whining just because.
On November 09 2010 12:13 SC.Shifty wrote: so...why was thor having a medivac priority over ground targets a problem?
oh right its not fair for the thor to be the same as every other unit.
You are right, there isn't any other unit in this game that can attack both ground and air units while having completely distinct attacks for each of them. And it isn't even an issue that affects anything beyond TvT mirror matches, you're whining just because.
If anything as a T(aka for selfish reasons, not for balance or any kind of "make sense mechanic") I wish Blizzard listened to him. In by far most cases I'd much rather have all my medivacs alive from start to finish(and possibly able to save them if I loose the fight) than have the enemy units focus them down first.
I also find it a bit frustrating that people want repairing scvs have higher target prio but many times in the same sentance they want medivacs to have lower...
This was pretty annoying especially in team games if you have a few thors roaming around looking for things to step on. Team games are the only time i've used and have seen used Thors on a large scale so i'm guessing this is a team oriented fix.
Why don't we have chat channels yet? The community has been crying out for it. Blizzard usually listens to the complaining of its community. They balanced WoW around the whining of forum posters.
I wish they would make some kind of priority against attacking units that are being repaired: first attack the people repairing, then attack the thing being repaired. If you wanted to try to brute force the thing, target fire it. That way, it wouldn't be so hard to take out PFs/Thors/BC's.
Also, as far as this Thor fire priority, will it still always choose air units (besides medivac) over ground units?
Dont know how this can be qualified as a patch. I cant see why they just dont merge this patch with any upcoming patches. Thor target medivac first doesnt game breaking anyway.
not that I mind the small incremental changes, but the changes here don't really seem to justify a patch. like i'll be glad when they make their way into the game, but it doesn't seem worth it compared to the inevitable instability bnet will have during the patching period. just lump it in with the next patch....unless its that far off in the future :/
if i wanted to read 5 pages of balance complains and qq i would just stay with the starcraft 2 bnet forums.
but really, small steps is good. we dont want them to mess up any serious coding along the way with anything big that might end up like ultralisk cleave scariness or pheonix graviton beam issues. take it slow.
am i the one that believe there will be a few of other small fixes with this patch? blizzard you sneaky b*stard just use the thor's patch to cover them up. just a guess lol
Yea I know! I can't describe how many times I got pissed beacuse the retarded Thor attacks Medivacs with their pathetic air attack instead of going after the big fish on the ground.
Not a huge patch, so it won't affect much. Good on trying organize customs more, that's been a cluster fuck for a while now. Like the Thor change though, that always bugged me that I had to constantly focus fire onto ground units because it kept attacking the medivacs instead.
Whats wrong with this patch? Blizzard noticed a small problem and released a patch to fix it. You should appreciate their effort and commitment to the game.
Too many of you are acting like spoiled brats. Its getting to the point where every topic on the forum is unreadable because of the constant complaining. I swear, complaining is now the only universal law on TL. I guess you can say that I'm complaining about complainers, go figure.
On November 09 2010 13:18 shynee wrote: Whats wrong with this patch? Blizzard noticed a small problem and released a patch to fix it. You should appreciate their effort and commitment to the game.
Too many of you are acting like spoiled brats. Its getting to the point where every topic on the forum is unreadable because of the constant complaining. I swear, complaining is now the only universal law on TL. I guess you can say that I'm complaining about complainers, go figure.
I'm actually really happy about the tug and tower D filter. When I want to play a custom game that's actually original they are hard to find without looking though a million Nexus war type maps. Thank you blizz ^.^
On November 09 2010 13:18 shynee wrote: Whats wrong with this patch? Blizzard noticed a small problem and released a patch to fix it. You should appreciate their effort and commitment to the game.
Too many of you are acting like spoiled brats. Its getting to the point where every topic on the forum is unreadable because of the constant complaining. I swear, complaining is now the only universal law on TL. I guess you can say that I'm complaining about complainers, go figure.
Amen. They weren't going to make any major changes with the GSL finals coming up. Don't be ridiculous guys
So...for the most part, this patch just makes replays less accessible? I wonder why they didn't just save this for a later, larger patch, since the issues addressed are quite trivial.
On November 09 2010 13:35 Ichabod wrote: So...for the most part, this patch just makes replays less accessible? I wonder why they didn't just save this for a later, larger patch, since the issues addressed are quite trivial.
Possible reason: FoxeR wants to do a Thor all-in build against NesTea in his upcoming match so he emailed Blizzard
On November 09 2010 13:35 Ichabod wrote: So...for the most part, this patch just makes replays less accessible? I wonder why they didn't just save this for a later, larger patch, since the issues addressed are quite trivial.
Possible reason: FoxeR wants to do a Thor all-in build against NesTea in his upcoming match so he emailed Blizzard
How does it relate to nestea, he doesn't have medivacs.
I must be in the minority who's happy with this patch. I always get so frustrated at thors targeting a couple of medivacs when there's a huge MM army right in front of it.
On November 09 2010 13:35 Ichabod wrote: So...for the most part, this patch just makes replays less accessible? I wonder why they didn't just save this for a later, larger patch, since the issues addressed are quite trivial.
Possible reason: FoxeR wants to do a Thor all-in build against NesTea in his upcoming match so he emailed Blizzard
On November 09 2010 13:35 Ichabod wrote: So...for the most part, this patch just makes replays less accessible? I wonder why they didn't just save this for a later, larger patch, since the issues addressed are quite trivial.
Possible reason: FoxeR wants to do a Thor all-in build against NesTea in his upcoming match so he emailed Blizzard
How does it relate to nestea, he doesn't have medivacs.
Obviously he was concerned about the possibility of neural parasite on the medivacs...>.>
On November 09 2010 13:57 Rowa wrote: Does that mean that a thor will no longer target the mutalisks but instead the ling / bling and get raped by mutas while doing so ? :O
Are mutalisks medivacs?
Seriously though, Blizzard rolls bugfixes into balance patches (phoenix bug) and people complain about it not being quick enough. Blizzard rolls out bugfixes on their own and people complain about them not putting it in a balance patch.
On November 09 2010 14:09 mOnion wrote: how do they not fix the medi priority for all units not just thors??? wtf
It is not broken for anything but Thors.
Every other unit that shoots both air and ground will do more DPS shooting the Medivac than the infantry the Medivac is healing. The Thor is the only exception.
I guess maaaaaaaybe Ghosts too, but that's more gray area and probably not really a problem.
I don't like such a minor patch. All the MLG Dallas replays are in 1.1.2 and now with the patch updated, I need to restart sc2 to an earlier patch everytime i want to watch a MLG Dallas replay
I don't play Terran, but what was the effect of this Thor change?
On November 09 2010 11:01 HollowLord wrote: The thor AI was pretty terrible actually.It reads phoenix as more of a threat than colossi.
Are you referring to how a thor won't attack a colossus with it's anti-air, attack, or what? Right now there is no way for a player to choose which weapon/attack they want to use vs a certain target. As far as I know though, the only time this matters is with the thor vs colossus, since there's no reason a BC or queen would want to use their other attack.
On November 09 2010 14:09 mOnion wrote: how do they not fix the medi priority for all units not just thors??? wtf
It is not broken for anything but Thors.
Every other unit that shoots both air and ground will do more DPS shooting the Medivac than the infantry the Medivac is healing. The Thor is the only exception.
I guess maaaaaaaybe Ghosts too, but that's more gray area and probably not really a problem.
its not about dps its about killing the shit that's killing you, and its a huge problem with drops and mass medivac play against stalkers
On November 09 2010 11:20 Fa1nT wrote: All units should attack with their highest DPS attack form if available.. Thors shooting missiles at a medivac every 3 seconds is a waste of time and damage xD
So Reapers should attack buildings instead of non light units? Does a Battlecruiser prioritize Air or Ground units (8 vs 6 dmg)? And Queens? Do they attack the Medivac with a/t-click or the ground units?
PS: Why do the 'patch notes' say explicitly "Medivacs" and not air-units or transporters? DO they really only mean Medivacs?
On November 09 2010 11:20 Fa1nT wrote: All units should attack with their highest DPS attack form if available.. Thors shooting missiles at a medivac every 3 seconds is a waste of time and damage xD
So Reapers should attack buildings instead of non light units? Does a Battlecruiser prioritize Air or Ground units (8 vs 6 dmg)? And Queens? Do they attack the Medivac with a/t-click or the ground units?
PS: Why do the 'patch notes' say explicitly "Medivacs" and not air-units or transporters? DO they really only mean Medivacs?
IIRC, medivacs took a higher priority then other "drop ship" units because of its ability to heal, so they already attacked ground units over warp prisms/overlords. Also: i'm pretty happy with this patch - smart idea for blizzard to not really mess up with any of the balances yet until they have better indications of the state of balance or lack thereof. I want chat rooms though :[.
The wierd thing is the patch notes don't show up on the patcher.... it still gives the Patch 1.1.2 notes. I had to come here to find out what had changed! lol
p.s. found another change - double clicking a replay file will now directly launch the replay, you don't have to log into battle.net first
On November 09 2010 14:09 mOnion wrote: how do they not fix the medi priority for all units not just thors??? wtf
It is not broken for anything but Thors.
Every other unit that shoots both air and ground will do more DPS shooting the Medivac than the infantry the Medivac is healing. The Thor is the only exception.
I guess maaaaaaaybe Ghosts too, but that's more gray area and probably not really a problem.
its not about dps its about killing the shit that's killing you, and its a huge problem with drops and mass medivac play against stalkers
Lets say you have two Stalkers. 250/100
I have 1 Medivac and 3 Marines. 250/100
Stalkers do 10 damage per 1.44 seconds to Light, and 14 per 1.44 to Armored.
Medivacs heal 13.5 HP per second. This is 19.44 HP per 1.44
So, if your two Stalkers are attacking the Marines and not the Medivac, because they are not killing it in one shot, they are literally doing 0.56 damage per shot until the Medivac runs out of energy.
Assuming the Medivac has full energy, this literally means that by the time your two Stalkers have killed 1 Marine, the 3 Marines have killed 9 Stalkers, or 3/4ths of a Nexus.
If they are attacking the Medivac, they are doing 28 damage per shot, and once they kill the Medivac, they will then kill the Marines. This actually results in them killing that first Marine 10 times faster, assuming the Medivac has full energy. The actual results will not be this severe, but it is a noticeable difference.
Now, you can get in a debate as to whether or not the AI should intelligently autotarget the Medivac because this results in it killing the enemy composition faster than if it did not autotarget the Medivac. That is obviously debatable.
However, Blizzard seems to think that it should autotarget the Medivac.
And lo, for every unit in the game that attacks both ground and air, it is better to target the Medivac first.
Except for the Thor.
Thus the change, it remains in line with the design plan that in a situation involving Medivacs, a units AI should attack the thing that results in it doing the most damage.
Edit: Also, because I know somebody is going to say "but in situations with larger unit numbers stuff will actually die blah blah this example is not applicable to a real game scenario" yes it's true that the larger the comps get the less silly the example will look, but the result will still be that it's better to target the Medivac first. The Terran player always wants to keep his Medivacs behind the drop units so the Stalker/Marine/Void Ray/Whatever cannot attack it.
On November 09 2010 14:09 mOnion wrote: how do they not fix the medi priority for all units not just thors??? wtf
It is not broken for anything but Thors.
Every other unit that shoots both air and ground will do more DPS shooting the Medivac than the infantry the Medivac is healing. The Thor is the only exception.
I guess maaaaaaaybe Ghosts too, but that's more gray area and probably not really a problem.
its not about dps its about killing the shit that's killing you, and its a huge problem with drops and mass medivac play against stalkers
Lets say you have two Stalkers. 250/100
I have 1 Medivac and 3 Marines. 250/100
Stalkers do 10 damage per 1.44 seconds to Light, and 14 per 1.44 to Armored.
Medivacs heal 13.5 HP per second. This is 19.44 HP per 1.44
So, if your two Stalkers are attacking the Marines and not the Medivac, because they are not killing it in one shot, they are literally doing 0.56 damage per shot until the Medivac runs out of energy.
Assuming the Medivac has full energy, this literally means that by the time your two Stalkers have killed 1 Marine, the 3 Marines have killed 9 Stalkers, or 3/4ths of a Nexus.
If they are attacking the Medivac, they are doing 28 damage per shot, and once they kill the Medivac, they will then kill the Marines. This actually results in them killing that first Marine 10 times faster, assuming the Medivac has full energy. The actual results will not be this severe, but it is a noticeable difference.
Now, you can get in a debate as to whether or not the AI should intelligently autotarget the Medivac because this results in it killing the enemy composition faster than if it did not autotarget the Medivac. That is obviously debatable.
However, Blizzard seems to think that it should autotarget the Medivac.
And lo, for every unit in the game that attacks both ground and air, it is better to target the Medivac first.
Except for the Thor.
Thus the change, it remains in line with the design plan that in a situation involving Medivacs, a units AI should attack the thing that results in it doing the most damage.
Edit: Also, because I know somebody is going to say "but in situations with larger unit numbers stuff will actually die blah blah this example is not applicable to a real game scenario" yes it's true that the larger the comps get the less silly the example will look, but the result will still be that it's better to target the Medivac first. The Terran player always wants to keep his Medivacs behind the drop units so the Stalker/Marine/Void Ray/Whatever cannot attack it.
thank you for the isolated scenario where all terrans drop is 3 marines. fact is that they usually drop marauders and those are the huge tanks that I want to kill before he destroys my tech buildings or nexus. 8 marauder drops are insanely hard to stop with stim, and getting the right number of units back to deal with it without bringing your whole 1A army is incredibly difficult to calculate in the heat of the situation,
medivacs are in the air, if i want to target them I can. same for PF's and Thors being repaired.
On November 09 2010 15:51 Ketara wrote: Be it Marines or Marauders, you will kill the drop faster by shooting the Medivac first, no matter the situation.
That is why the AI shoots the Medivac first, and that is why the Thor was changed.
i think the real patch will come next week after the GSL finals, i was quite surprised to see a patch when logging on today, but this is just bugfixing
On November 09 2010 15:51 Ketara wrote: Be it Marines or Marauders, you will kill the drop faster by shooting the Medivac first, no matter the situation.
That is why the AI shoots the Medivac first, and that is why the Thor was changed.
I don't agree with you at all.
Yeah, mathematically im absoloutley certain there are situations where killing the units themselves is faster than killing the medivac followed by the units, IE 7 mutas against 2 marines and 1 medivac
I think its good of them to push out simple fixes that have already gone through Q&A and that are simple to patch like this. It's not like this will change up the game a lot, but it's better to have stuff like this NOW, than bundled up later with a bigger patch, no? I mean if it's already done and tested, why wait?
Just so the more clueless people understand the change (seeing some "I'd rather focus down the Medivacs first wtfbbq bad change"):
Thor shooting a Medivac does 6.67 DPS and will basically never splash to anything else in TvT Thor shooting a ground unit with 0 armor does 46.87 DPS Thor shooting a ground unit with 1 armor does 45.31 DPS
On November 09 2010 14:09 mOnion wrote: how do they not fix the medi priority for all units not just thors??? wtf
It is not broken for anything but Thors.
Every other unit that shoots both air and ground will do more DPS shooting the Medivac than the infantry the Medivac is healing. The Thor is the only exception.
I guess maaaaaaaybe Ghosts too, but that's more gray area and probably not really a problem.
its not about dps its about killing the shit that's killing you, and its a huge problem with drops and mass medivac play against stalkers
Lets say you have two Stalkers. 250/100
I have 1 Medivac and 3 Marines. 250/100
Stalkers do 10 damage per 1.44 seconds to Light, and 14 per 1.44 to Armored.
Medivacs heal 13.5 HP per second. This is 19.44 HP per 1.44
So, if your two Stalkers are attacking the Marines and not the Medivac, because they are not killing it in one shot, they are literally doing 0.56 damage per shot until the Medivac runs out of energy.
Assuming the Medivac has full energy, this literally means that by the time your two Stalkers have killed 1 Marine, the 3 Marines have killed 9 Stalkers, or 3/4ths of a Nexus.
If they are attacking the Medivac, they are doing 28 damage per shot, and once they kill the Medivac, they will then kill the Marines. This actually results in them killing that first Marine 10 times faster, assuming the Medivac has full energy. The actual results will not be this severe, but it is a noticeable difference.
Now, you can get in a debate as to whether or not the AI should intelligently autotarget the Medivac because this results in it killing the enemy composition faster than if it did not autotarget the Medivac. That is obviously debatable.
However, Blizzard seems to think that it should autotarget the Medivac.
And lo, for every unit in the game that attacks both ground and air, it is better to target the Medivac first.
Except for the Thor.
Thus the change, it remains in line with the design plan that in a situation involving Medivacs, a units AI should attack the thing that results in it doing the most damage.
Edit: Also, because I know somebody is going to say "but in situations with larger unit numbers stuff will actually die blah blah this example is not applicable to a real game scenario" yes it's true that the larger the comps get the less silly the example will look, but the result will still be that it's better to target the Medivac first. The Terran player always wants to keep his Medivacs behind the drop units so the Stalker/Marine/Void Ray/Whatever cannot attack it.
And that is why Blizzard doesn't change the Stalker's AI but I would like to add something based on my protoss experience.
If I'm attacking a terran ball with my protoss army and the Zealots are hitting the front line I would like the Stalkers to help outdps the Medivacs cuz if the Stalker aims the Medivacs the scenario is usually that Medivacs heal a lot of the Zealot dps rendering them much less effective so that the terran ball can clean them up and then finish the Stalkers that are dispersing their dps instead of focusing with the Zealots.
While in a pure Stalker army situation, aiming the Medivacs first would be better, in a mix I think it would be better if the Stalkers would support the Zealots instead of minding their own business and getting owned aftewards.
On November 09 2010 12:13 SC.Shifty wrote: so...why was thor having a medivac priority over ground targets a problem?
oh right its not fair for the thor to be the same as every other unit.
lmfao! I dont believe this. Have you ever seen a thor stupidly trying to fend off a medivac drop while trying to kill only kill medivacs and die doing 0 damage? Id like to see you try micro other units while trying to target fire marines and marauders with thors 1 at a time while keeping them at the back. Its not easy
I've been using muta (and later broodlords) to take the thor DPS off of my ground army. I'm a bit disappointed they changed this as it was an interesting weakness that the thor had. The last thing thors need is a buff.
However, I guess on the other hand that muta/ling gets a buff. Your muta will stay alive more easily as the lings get targeted first. Do keep in mind that air range is greater so it's best to send your lings in before your muta's (assuming keeping muta alive is your priority).
We'll have to see how it plays out. Hard to judge, but my initial feeling says this is a buff.
As for the medivac problem; they should fix the medivac, not the units around it.
I'm also wondering if air priority in general has been changed (i.e. all units shoot ground before air).
Its funny how so many people turn a good fix into something terrible because they didn't fix all the other 32048732 complaints they have ("OMFG BUT WHY DIDNT THEY FIX THIS WHICH BOTHERS ME A LOT MORE INSTEAD ROFL!??!?!?!").
You'd probably be happier if there was no patch at all, which is completely retarded since something should always be better than nothing. The world doesnt circle around you and what you think is important might not be what Blizz thinks is, or they might not even think it's worth fixing at all.
It wasn't a very big patch. I'm hoping we will finally get chat channels in the next one. Come on Blizzard! Give us some sense of community on Battle.Net.
i think they should nerf protoss, protoss is so strong, i mean seriously look at the gsl seasons, which is the only tournament really matters, protoss is way to strong, i really think they should nerf protoss, i mean seriously look at the gsl seasons, which is the only tournament really matters, protoss is way to strong, i really think they should nerf protoss, i mean seriously look at the gsl seasons, which is the only tournament really matters, protoss is way to strong, i really think they should nerf protoss, i mean seriously look at the gsl seasons, which is the only tournament really matters, protoss is way to strong, i really think they should nerf protoss.
On November 09 2010 17:55 Glacius0 wrote: I've been using muta (and later broodlords) to take the thor DPS off of my ground army. I'm a bit disappointed they changed this as it was an interesting weakness that the thor had. The last thing thors need is a buff.
However, I guess on the other hand that muta/ling gets a buff. Your muta will stay alive more easily as the lings get targeted first. Do keep in mind that air range is greater so it's best to send your lings in before your muta's (assuming keeping muta alive is your priority).
We'll have to see how it plays out. Hard to judge, but my initial feeling says this is a buff.
As for the medivac problem; they should fix the medivac, not the units around it.
I'm also wondering if air priority in general has been changed (i.e. all units shoot ground before air).
mutas are not medivacs.
Its not a buff its a priority fix.
There is nothing wrong with the medivac and its been nerfed in 1.1.2
changes to the thor do not affect the medivac in any way.
Thor is expensive and having them raped because they would rather do low dps to a med instead of high dps to ground is a stupid bug.
On November 09 2010 18:11 DanceDance wrote: It wasn't a very big patch. I'm hoping we will finally get chat channels in the next one. Come on Blizzard! Give us some sense of community on Battle.Net.
believe blizzard has said they are hoping to get the chat channels up by the end of the year. apparently its pretty much done.
On November 09 2010 18:43 Sueco wrote: Great now fix so that mutas prioritize marines over the medivacs healing them?
Or fix your ability to click on them? Most of the time you want to kill the Medivacs first anyway, considering that Ling/Bling should be what's doing the damage to the Marines.
On November 09 2010 12:13 SC.Shifty wrote: so...why was thor having a medivac priority over ground targets a problem?
oh right its not fair for the thor to be the same as every other unit.
lmfao! I dont believe this. Have you ever seen a thor stupidly trying to fend off a medivac drop while trying to kill only kill medivacs and die doing 0 damage? Id like to see you try micro other units while trying to target fire marines and marauders with thors 1 at a time while keeping them at the back. Its not easy
Have you ever seen a 200 army ignoring the other 200 army and go for the planetary fortress? Yeah...we know the pain...
Oh you know what's funnier? Seeing zealots run around like a bunch of lemmings because a thor is oh my gosh, surrounded by scvs.
Seriously though, it's a reasonable change and hopefully, iteratively, blizzard start to fix the little things that are so frustrating. Eventually we'll end up with a damn good game.
Lol so this is the patch blizzard said they would release at blizzcon? They better release a serious patch after the GSL-finals, or I guess many people will be pissed haha
On November 09 2010 12:58 Caphe wrote: Dont know how this can be qualified as a patch. I cant see why they just dont merge this patch with any upcoming patches. Thor target medivac first doesnt game breaking anyway.
Don't wanna dampen the mood, but the only reason I can think of is, that the next patch won't be released any time soon, so blizz decided to make this fix with a seperate patch now.
With these small patches Blizzard usually implements other random things for you to focus you whine on like the Phoenix bug recently so just wait and see, they just want you to have something else than balance to whine on.
On November 09 2010 18:58 indiehjaerta wrote: With these small patches Blizzard usually implements other random things for you to focus you whine on like the Phoenix bug recently so just wait and see, they just want you to have something else than balance to whine on.
yeah did anyone check yet if thors are still firing at all when medivacs are in the game?
Have you ever seen a 200 army ignoring the other 200 army and go for the planetary fortress? Yeah...we know the pain...[/QUOTE]
no one was talking about a planetary fortress. Its got nothing to do with anything.
Thors are on discussion here.
Why would you run a 200 army into the vicinity of a pf anyway? Thats just stupid. Micro a bit and stay away and contain. Go for the pf once the army is dead.
sorry if this sounds really stupid, but could someone explain to me what " Fixed a desync that could occur when trying to watch replays that had a dependency on bank files." is
On November 09 2010 18:49 kar1181 wrote: Oh you know what's funnier? Seeing zealots run around like a bunch of lemmings because a thor is oh my gosh, surrounded by scvs.
Seriously though, it's a reasonable change and hopefully, iteratively, blizzard start to fix the little things that are so frustrating. Eventually we'll end up with a damn good game.
yeah i agree. Easy solution though. Specially with chargelots. Click thor, surround press h, repeat.
TVT on the other hand is trickier. Only ranged units means no help surounding. Only scv target fire and splash damage are any good
On November 09 2010 17:55 Glacius0 wrote: I've been using muta (and later broodlords) to take the thor DPS off of my ground army. I'm a bit disappointed they changed this as it was an interesting weakness that the thor had. The last thing thors need is a buff.
However, I guess on the other hand that muta/ling gets a buff. Your muta will stay alive more easily as the lings get targeted first. Do keep in mind that air range is greater so it's best to send your lings in before your muta's (assuming keeping muta alive is your priority).
We'll have to see how it plays out. Hard to judge, but my initial feeling says this is a buff.
As for the medivac problem; they should fix the medivac, not the units around it.
I'm also wondering if air priority in general has been changed (i.e. all units shoot ground before air).
mutas are not medivacs.
Its not a buff its a priority fix.
There is nothing wrong with the medivac and its been nerfed in 1.1.2
changes to the thor do not affect the medivac in any way.
Thor is expensive and having them raped because they would rather do low dps to a med instead of high dps to ground is a stupid bug.
Changes have got nothing to do with zerg
It seems people are disagreeing on the meaning of this change.
"This unit (= the thor) will now prioritize attacking ground combat units over Medivacs."
I am assuming this means that they changed the thor air/ground priority in general. I find this much more likely than a special rule that says that only thors don't shoot specifically medivacs before ground units (which would be an exception to the current rule that thors prioritize air over ground, and exceptions like this have never occurred this far).
Another possible interpretation is a change in medivac priority (which I think is a better fix), but this is unlikely considering the wording. (Example: thors already shoot combat ground units before overlords. If medivac priority gets changed from a combat unit to a passive unit like the overlord this would fix the problem.)
Assuming I am right, thors will now always prioritize ground combat units over air combat units, making this a change that affects all match-ups.
I think the reason they mention medivacs specifically is because medivacs are the reason they made this change to the thor.
no chat channels, no clan system, just a Thor priority fix while this will probably not affect any major tournaments it's pretty much useless and unneeded
On November 09 2010 18:37 Suxces wrote: i think they should nerf protoss, protoss is so strong, i mean seriously look at the gsl seasons, which is the only tournament really matters, protoss is way to strong, i really think they should nerf protoss, i mean seriously look at the gsl seasons, which is the only tournament really matters, protoss is way to strong, i really think they should nerf protoss, i mean seriously look at the gsl seasons, which is the only tournament really matters, protoss is way to strong, i really think they should nerf protoss, i mean seriously look at the gsl seasons, which is the only tournament really matters, protoss is way to strong, i really think they should nerf protoss.
I just tested it. They still target mutalisks first, when ground units are also around. I don't know what system is behind that, because attack priority numbers are still the same.
I also tested a battlecruiser vs. marauders, medivacs and ghosts. At first, it targets all ghosts, then the marauder and the medivacs at last. That's quite intelligent, I didn't suspect that. I wonder which variables determine that behavior.
On November 09 2010 19:48 MindRush wrote: no chat channels, no clan system, just a Thor priority fix while this will probably not affect any major tournaments it's pretty much useless and unneeded
Just like your post, if you have nothing constructive to say please refrain from "contributing".
On November 09 2010 20:57 Sanguinarius wrote: Damn, I was hoping this patch would allow me to kill thors with repairing scvs. Darn, maybe the next one.
Well at least I hope they got the desync
Depending on your race: Storm, FG, Banes, Colossus, tanks, target firing..
On November 09 2010 17:55 Glacius0 wrote: I've been using muta (and later broodlords) to take the thor DPS off of my ground army. I'm a bit disappointed they changed this as it was an interesting weakness that the thor had. The last thing thors need is a buff.
However, I guess on the other hand that muta/ling gets a buff. Your muta will stay alive more easily as the lings get targeted first. Do keep in mind that air range is greater so it's best to send your lings in before your muta's (assuming keeping muta alive is your priority).
We'll have to see how it plays out. Hard to judge, but my initial feeling says this is a buff.
As for the medivac problem; they should fix the medivac, not the units around it.
I'm also wondering if air priority in general has been changed (i.e. all units shoot ground before air).
How is this a buff or a nerf? It only affects TvT so that a thor doesn't focus on a noncombat unit and makes it slightly more viable vs infantry without having to manually control every attack.
Seriously what is with the complaining, they were never going to do anything major just before the gsl finals. You will probably find they were happy with this fix and and since it didn't affect the finals there is no reason to delay it. Any major fixes will probably come after the finals. Just to say this again, I believe blizzard have said they plan to have chat channels in place by the end of the year so it won't be that much longer.
Yeah honestly this change was great. I cannot tell you non-T players how awful it was for Thor's to auto attack medivacs. I know you can just tell them to target ground, but even those first wasted shots are huge amounts of key damage missed.
How can you possibly make so few official changes with so many MB?
BTT: The Thor changes seems good to me, it simply makes more sense to kill off whats attacking instead of killing the healers which are standing behind and do no harm to you at all... Neural parasite will work better aswell, for its almost every time you take a Thor he does no crucial damage at all to the rest of the mech army.
Overall an "ok" patch i guess, still waiting for the chatrooms / proleague / clan function to be implemented, Blizzard still has a whole pile of stuff to do before i will be completely satisfied with the Bnet2.0 application.
But seeing in which fast manner the patches are brought up and live it seems fairly well possible that the previously mentionen functions are gonna come as a sort of Christmas present to the SC2 Community. Keep up the good work, Blizz!
On November 09 2010 21:34 FetTerBender wrote: How can you possibly make so few official changes with so many MB?
BTT: The Thor changes seems good to me, it simply makes more sense to kill off whats attacking instead of killing the healers which are standing behind and do no harm to you at all... Neural parasite will work better aswell, for its almost every time you take a Thor he does no crucial damage at all to the rest of the mech army.
Overall an "ok" patch i guess, still waiting for the chatrooms / proleague / clan function to be implemented, Blizzard still has a whole pile of stuff to do before i will be completely satisfied with the Bnet2.0 application.
But seeing in which fast manner the patches are brought up and live it seems fairly well possible that the previously mentionen functions are gonna come as a sort of Christmas present to the SC2 Community. Keep up the good work, Blizz!
On November 09 2010 11:00 holy_war wrote: Blizzard is not that dumb to release a new balance patch with the GSL2 finals coming up in a few days.
Why not? They take 24 hours fixing some major fuckup, at most. There is no TvT matchup on saturday, balance wise it's unaffected.
You just jinxed it and Foxer is now going to win the game where his Thors get mind controlled but target Marines over Medivacs.
What are you talking about? Thors aren't marines
Ketara is pointing out that TvT is not the only situation the change to Thor priority matters. Pre-patch, a Neural Parasited Thor would turn on its own medivacs, but now it will turn on the ground troops instead.
To think that these people that can not understand that this is not a buff/nerf and does not affect anything bar TvT are also suggesting balance changes and giving advise in the strategy forums.... wow Talk about qq ing.
On November 09 2010 11:05 theuser wrote: this is it? it's basically nothing... I'm so sad. i hoped this would be the esport patch with chat channels and stuff
Heart of the Swarm. Also can't believe they didn't nerf Protoss.
On November 09 2010 19:18 bioboyAT wrote: does this mean when i watch the new 500 MLG reps every single time sc2 has to switch the version ? is there no way around this ?
worst patch timing ever
Indeed.
It would be really nice if we can select more than one replay and play them in a series, especially if they are of a previous version.
Anyway, while it was annoying to have Thors prioritizing medvacs, I got used to immortal babysitting so it wasn't too bad for me. They love attacking non-armored targets
The should make a watch replay without having to relog back into bnet feature >.> Patches like these that change absotleuley nothing piss me off because now the last 100+ replays I've carefully searched for to improve a specific aspect of my game are "old".
Seriously? Get a life guys. This patch is one of the most universally agreeable ones out of all of them and you're all bickering about one small balance change, that really should be quite agreeable for most people. And by most people, I mean anyone with a brain. It's not even a balance patch, it affects TvT, and makes the Thor universally a bit better vs other ground units, and protoss and zerg players are raging?
On November 09 2010 20:57 Sanguinarius wrote: Damn, I was hoping this patch would allow me to kill thors with repairing scvs. Darn, maybe the next one.
Well at least I hope they got the desync
Depending on your race: Storm, FG, Banes, Colossus, tanks, target firing..
yeah you're probably right.. against pure mech i'm gonna get baneling tech + baneling speed (a useless tech tree versus mech) just in order to kill some workers =)))
edit:
i'm sorry i just saw your FG recommendation.. actually this tech tree would even be more expensive... but it sounds reasonable to get an infestor dan with the energy upgrade and some infestors in order to kill 8-9 WORKERS =))
Nice patch actually. Blizzard isn't going to bring a major patch with the GSL finals in few days.
And the next big patch is in late November or early December when they introduce chat channels, pro leagues, more balance fixes and possibly the Blizzard custom maps or winners of custom maps contest.
On November 09 2010 11:00 holy_war wrote: Blizzard is not that dumb to release a new balance patch with the GSL2 finals coming up in a few days.
Why not? They take 24 hours fixing some major fuckup, at most. There is no TvT matchup on saturday, balance wise it's unaffected.
You just jinxed it and Foxer is now going to win the game where his Thors get mind controlled but target Marines over Medivacs.
What are you talking about? Thors aren't marines
Ketara is pointing out that TvT is not the only situation the change to Thor priority matters. Pre-patch, a Neural Parasited Thor would turn on its own medivacs, but now it will turn on the ground troops instead.
That was a great catch both of you, I hadn't thought of that. I know in the past when I have NPed Thors they did tend to go after the opponents medivacs wasting a lot of the potential damage. This is actually a very marginal buff to NP, which is good since it is so rarely used.
On November 10 2010 00:53 Glacius0 wrote: I just tested it. This change has got nothing to do with the thor. Medivac priority simply got lowered.
Before: - Medivac was counted as a combat unit, so if it was the closest thing in range it would get targeted.
Now: - Medivac is a non-combat unit (like an overlord) and will not get targeted as long as there are combat units in range.
So it seems the wording of the patch notes was somewhat unfortunate after all.
Understandable- Blizzard does often forget to play with the other races.
*not a balance whine- a depth of gameplay whine. I think we can all agree T has the most options and polish. I mean they were adding and removing entire zerg spells still at the end of beta.
I think there should be universal priority on ground units because manually clicking on the air units is far easier than trying to click on all the ground units when the air units are blocking your sight.
On November 09 2010 13:09 PrideNeverDie wrote: make scvs with autorepair toggled on or in the act of repairing have the same priority as attacking units
or workers have same priority as stationary defenses/queens/attacking units so zerglings in worker lines can do more damage
also improve zergling ai so you don't have 10 zerglings funneled into 1 gap
Or maybe blizzard should take micro out of the game.
On November 09 2010 13:09 PrideNeverDie wrote: make scvs with autorepair toggled on or in the act of repairing have the same priority as attacking units
or workers have same priority as stationary defenses/queens/attacking units so zerglings in worker lines can do more damage
also improve zergling ai so you don't have 10 zerglings funneled into 1 gap
Or maybe blizzard should take micro out of the game.
u better upload a vid right now, including u beating a thor rush surrounded with scvs while having like 3 zealots, 3 stalkers and 2 sentries. show us your micro
On November 09 2010 13:09 PrideNeverDie wrote: make scvs with autorepair toggled on or in the act of repairing have the same priority as attacking units
or workers have same priority as stationary defenses/queens/attacking units so zerglings in worker lines can do more damage
also improve zergling ai so you don't have 10 zerglings funneled into 1 gap
Or maybe blizzard should take micro out of the game.
Please don't tell me that simply attacking autorepairing scvs should require huge amounts of micro including swiveling the camera so that you can target units being blocked by the thors/buildings/battlecruisers. Battlecruisers are the worst, because you literally can't target them. That is fucking bullshit, through and through.
My units should not dance around when I tell them to attack. The repair mechanic is obviously broken, and I have no idea why Blizzard hasn't fixed it yet. If you have ever played against it, you would agree.
If medivac priority has been lowered, that sounds to me like its just a straight-up buff to terran.
They should make units auto-attack repairing SCVs when a-moved and only stay focused if you manually click on the unit/building being repaired if they're gonna change unit behaviour in a patch. :[
I think the reason why they haven't fixed the autorepair yet is it's probably the reason why Thors and Planetary Fortresses are effective in their intended roles.
It's obviously pretty goofy and aggravating, but it's debatably necessary. At the Blizzcon dev panel they said something to that effect, saying that they've discussed changing the repair priority but weren't sure that it was a good idea.
They also said at that panel that the chances of them nerfing Terran in the next big balance patch were very low, FYI.
On November 10 2010 02:20 Wolf wrote: The worst part about this patch is that there were so many replays I was going to watch that now I have to relog every time for. No thanks.
I tend to go into my replays folder and double click old replays. At the end of the replay I ALT+F4 out of SC2 instead of quitting to the menu. That way I'm out faster and don't have to log in every time.
+ This unit will now prioritize attacking ground combat units over Medivacs.
*blizzard troll face*
sooo, they patch this in but they cant make it to where SCVs have an attack priority when they repair a PF/thor/etc? or how about the terran all ins where terrans take all there SCVs off of mining and send them at enemy units and the enemy units will atk the scvs instead of the combat units and screw up there AI?
On November 09 2010 20:57 Sanguinarius wrote: Damn, I was hoping this patch would allow me to kill thors with repairing scvs. Darn, maybe the next one.
Well at least I hope they got the desync
Depending on your race: Storm, FG, Banes, Colossus, tanks, target firing..
yeah you're probably right.. against pure mech i'm gonna get baneling tech + baneling speed (a useless tech tree versus mech) just in order to kill some workers =)))
edit:
i'm sorry i just saw your FG recommendation.. actually this tech tree would even be more expensive... but it sounds reasonable to get an infestor dan with the energy upgrade and some infestors in order to kill 8-9 WORKERS =))
my advice- start building infestors with upg and banelings with speed in every zvt, youll see ur winrate increase significantly.
Is there an easier way of watching old replays? I've been meaning to parse through the MLG dallas replays, but having to relog in that many times is almost an argument to removing the authenticator on my account.
They probably should have held off on the Thor change until they did some additional balance changes. Then it would have clearly been a bug/feature patch.
On November 09 2010 23:34 bananafever wrote: i'm sorry i just saw your FG recommendation.. actually this tech tree would even be more expensive... but it sounds reasonable to get an infestor dan with the energy upgrade and some infestors in order to kill 8-9 WORKERS =))
..Implying the Infestation Pit is not a tech structure you should be getting every game vs Mech? Have you never made a Hive?
On November 10 2010 00:53 Glacius0 wrote: I just tested it. This change has got nothing to do with the thor. Medivac priority simply got lowered.
Before: - Medivac was counted as a combat unit, so if it was the closest thing in range it would get targeted.
Now: - Medivac is a non-combat unit (like an overlord) and will not get targeted as long as there are combat units in range.
So it seems the wording of the patch notes was somewhat unfortunate after all.
....really? is it too much to ask of blizzard to look at the units that are suffering (carrier) instead of buffing an already highly used unit?
thou I assume 1.2 will have a huge balance patch....
What unit good buffed exactly? The medivac? If it is true what Glacius0 says, its a nerf not a buff. Cause pre 1.1.3 stalkers targeted medivacs while marauders/marines shreddered them. Many people complaid about high medivac priority.
Seriously? This warranted a patch? But I still have so many questions left unanswered. How does this help anything? Why does this need to be released in its own, separate patch? Where is my viking ground damage buff?
On November 10 2010 08:50 41d3n wrote: Seriously? This warranted a patch? But I still have so many questions left unanswered. How does this help anything? Why does this need to be released in its own, separate patch? Where is my viking ground damage buff?
I'd love to hear what level you play at. Plus the reasons you can describe as to why the viking ground attack needs a buff. Please reply.
On November 10 2010 08:50 41d3n wrote: Seriously? This warranted a patch? But I still have so many questions left unanswered. How does this help anything? Why does this need to be released in its own, separate patch? Where is my viking ground damage buff?
I'd love to hear what level you play at. Plus the reasons you can describe as to why the viking ground attack needs a buff. Please reply.
Nuh-uh. No, sir. Not stupid enough to get into a balance discussion. Especially not over a joke.
On November 10 2010 08:50 41d3n wrote: Seriously? This warranted a patch? But I still have so many questions left unanswered. How does this help anything? Why does this need to be released in its own, separate patch? Where is my viking ground damage buff?
I'd love to hear what level you play at. Plus the reasons you can describe as to why the viking ground attack needs a buff. Please reply.
Coz it's absolute garbage in Asalt mode? I don t think it needs a buff though.
On November 10 2010 08:50 41d3n wrote: Seriously? This warranted a patch? But I still have so many questions left unanswered. How does this help anything? Why does this need to be released in its own, separate patch? Where is my viking ground damage buff?
I'd love to hear what level you play at. Plus the reasons you can describe as to why the viking ground attack needs a buff. Please reply.
Coz it's absolute garbage in Asalt mode? I don t think it needs a buff though.
Well, the DPS is way higher than that of a Roach for instance and better than stimmed marauder vs non-armored.
Anyway yeah, they really could have fixed the repairing worker priority, I really don't think it should be in the game. This change is good though, mutas focusing medivacs while dying to dropped marines got really annoying.
On November 10 2010 00:53 Glacius0 wrote: I just tested it. This change has got nothing to do with the thor. Medivac priority simply got lowered.
Before: - Medivac was counted as a combat unit, so if it was the closest thing in range it would get targeted.
Now: - Medivac is a non-combat unit (like an overlord) and will not get targeted as long as there are combat units in range.
So it seems the wording of the patch notes was somewhat unfortunate after all.
....really? is it too much to ask of blizzard to look at the units that are suffering (carrier) instead of buffing an already highly used unit?
thou I assume 1.2 will have a huge balance patch....
What unit good buffed exactly? The medivac? If it is true what Glacius0 says, its a nerf not a buff. Cause pre 1.1.3 stalkers targeted medivacs while marauders/marines shreddered them. Many people complaid about high medivac priority.
Wouldn't that be ideal? Stalkers shooting the marines and marauders would simply be healed. Isn't targeting the medivacs almost universally what you want to do?
THANK you. Most retarded counter to thors ever. " hurr hurr get armored air and any ground unit you want hurr hurr."
edit: oh... only medivacs?
Great! Thor IQ jumped 5 points! from 45 to 50! :D
Christ, Blizzard. What's so hard about unit specific priority tables?I could implement them myself in half a day if you'd let me at the source. (mutter mutter)
... why didn't they fix drones/overlord priority as well. It's always fun to drop a thor behind a mineral batch only to see it shooting at overlords miles away while drones freely mine.
Bleh. I guess I should be fair and give them more time but cmon. PvT changes they can do that without affecting the GSL finals.
Well, to be fair, they were talking about changing Marauder stim, which definitely does affect the TvZ matchup. (Although maybe not that much for FoxeR, lol)
Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused.
On November 10 2010 11:41 Sabu113 wrote: Wtf.
Just saw the patch notes. Really disappointed.
Bleh. I guess I should be fair and give them more time but cmon. PvT changes they can do that without affecting the GSL finals.
This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units.
edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME.
On November 10 2010 11:49 silencesc wrote: Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused.
Bleh. I guess I should be fair and give them more time but cmon. PvT changes they can do that without affecting the GSL finals.
This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units.
edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME.
well blizzard said there would be changes to marauder stim, and templar storm. im expecting some kind of nerf on both. its mentioned in one of the state of the game podcasts. and was on the sc2 site.
edit: and they fixed thors so they DONT target medivacs if theres a combat unit they can shoot first.
On November 10 2010 11:49 silencesc wrote: Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused.
On November 10 2010 11:41 Sabu113 wrote: Wtf.
Just saw the patch notes. Really disappointed.
Bleh. I guess I should be fair and give them more time but cmon. PvT changes they can do that without affecting the GSL finals.
This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units.
edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME.
well blizzard said there would be changes to marauder stim, and templar storm. im expecting some kind of nerf on both. its mentioned in one of the state of the game podcasts. and was on the sc2 site.
edit: and they fixed thors so they DONT target medivacs if theres a combat unit they can shoot first.
Yeah I heard about the storm. Poor toss. Hadn't known about the stim thing though, so aww yeahh
On November 10 2010 11:58 Eminent Rising wrote: if toss gets nerfed again i'll switch to terran for good. my heart can only take so much
my sentiments kinda exactly, cept Ill join the swarm. God speed toss buddy.
It's funny to see this across all the races. Terran users are talking about switching to Zerg, Zerg users switching to Protoss, Protoss users switching to Terran.
The grass really always is greener, I guess.
The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region).
Honestly, I think the game needs a few balance tweaks here and there in certain matchups (PvT), but overall it is fine.
As pros have proven, you can literally win any tournament with any race. The balance is not broken to the level where it needs to be QQ'd about in every forum thread known to man-kind, and it is certainly not broken enough to switch races.
One thing is for certain, Starcraft 2 is a hell of a lot more balanced than Starcraft 1 was 3 months after release. Brb, going to 4-pool autowin... 1998 for the win.
One thing that's important to keep in mind if you're considering switching races: very few pros I can think of have switched races permanently since very early in beta--several of them have talked a big game but almost none have committed.
If you aren't as good as the pros then you probably aren't being limited by your choice of race. Consider simply grinding out more/better practice (remember to analyze your loss replays!) instead of attributing your lack of success to external factors.
On November 10 2010 11:49 silencesc wrote: Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused.
On November 10 2010 11:41 Sabu113 wrote: Wtf.
Just saw the patch notes. Really disappointed.
Bleh. I guess I should be fair and give them more time but cmon. PvT changes they can do that without affecting the GSL finals.
This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units.
edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME.
well blizzard said there would be changes to marauder stim, and templar storm. im expecting some kind of nerf on both. its mentioned in one of the state of the game podcasts. and was on the sc2 site.
edit: and they fixed thors so they DONT target medivacs if theres a combat unit they can shoot first.
Didn't bliz say they thought marauder stim was fine, but marine stim was questionable, at Blizzcon? Or have we heard further word?
On November 10 2010 11:49 silencesc wrote: Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused.
On November 10 2010 11:41 Sabu113 wrote: Wtf.
Just saw the patch notes. Really disappointed.
Bleh. I guess I should be fair and give them more time but cmon. PvT changes they can do that without affecting the GSL finals.
This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units.
edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME.
well blizzard said there would be changes to marauder stim, and templar storm. im expecting some kind of nerf on both. its mentioned in one of the state of the game podcasts. and was on the sc2 site.
This is correct. According to the panel, marauders are fine and marine stim, more accurately the timing of stim in general, was being looked into. edit: and they fixed thors so they DONT target medivacs if theres a combat unit they can shoot first.
Didn't bliz say they thought marauder stim was fine, but marine stim was questionable, at Blizzcon? Or have we heard further word?
On November 10 2010 11:49 silencesc wrote: Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused.
On November 10 2010 11:41 Sabu113 wrote: Wtf.
Just saw the patch notes. Really disappointed.
Bleh. I guess I should be fair and give them more time but cmon. PvT changes they can do that without affecting the GSL finals.
This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units.
edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME.
well blizzard said there would be changes to marauder stim, and templar storm. im expecting some kind of nerf on both. its mentioned in one of the state of the game podcasts. and was on the sc2 site.
edit: and they fixed thors so they DONT target medivacs if theres a combat unit they can shoot first.
Didn't bliz say they thought marauder stim was fine, but marine stim was questionable, at Blizzcon? Or have we heard further word?
What they said was that Marauder stim was not cost-effective. You don't do enough extra damage to make up for the injury you cause to your own units. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, though, because it's not like Marauders need a buff. I think it's good that overeager stimmers can often kill themselves off for the sake of a few extra DPS.
post-edit: I may be wrong about this. See future posts for more.
On November 10 2010 13:40 Crichton wrote:What they said was that Marauder stim was not cost-effective. You don't do enough extra damage to make up for the injury you cause to your own units. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, though, because it's not like Marauders need a buff. I think it's good that overeager stimmers can often kill themselves off for the sake of a few extra DPS.
i'm pretty sure that when they said this it was in reference to one of the changes that they were testing, not the way marauder stim works currently in the game
On November 10 2010 11:58 Eminent Rising wrote: if toss gets nerfed again i'll switch to terran for good. my heart can only take so much
my sentiments kinda exactly, cept Ill join the swarm. God speed toss buddy.
It's funny to see this across all the races. Terran users are talking about switching to Zerg, Zerg users switching to Protoss, Protoss users switching to Terran.
The grass really always is greener, I guess.
The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region).
Honestly, I think the game needs a few balance tweaks here and there in certain matchups (PvT), but overall it is fine.
As pros have proven, you can literally win any tournament with any race. The balance is not broken to the level where it needs to be QQ'd about in every forum thread known to man-kind, and it is certainly not broken enough to switch races.
One thing is for certain, Starcraft 2 is a hell of a lot more balanced than Starcraft 1 was 3 months after release. Brb, going to 4-pool autowin... 1998 for the win.
I think you're misunderstanding people's reasons for switching races. Before the roach range buff, the warpgate cooldown nerf, and zealot build time increase, Protoss could be really, really agressive early game and still expand behind the agression. Now, with mass roach early game and fewer gateway units available, I've been forced to 2gate robo into expand and defend until there are a nice number of collosi out, in other words: play very passively. This isn't my style. I'd switch races not because I think that protoss is "less powerful" than they, nor because I think that a certain composition for another race "counters" standard protoss openings, but merely because I like to be more agressive and cute with my play, and at least right now I can't do that with toss until late gate DT/HT are out.
I wasn't talking about balance, I was talking about play style.
Edit: Have you seen a protoss in the RO8 in gsl1? or in the RO4 for gsl 2? In fact, what's the last tournament a protoss won? The problem is that the role of protoss has changed from being about putting on lots of pressure to force a certain tech tree with gateway units, then throwing down stargate/robo tech to counter that, to turtle until collosi with range pop, then get stomped by a mobile MMM or muta bling ball: no one has figured out how to change their style to match what blizzard has warped protoss into.
edit to edit: Except Liquid`Tyler. His phoenixes make me smile.
On November 10 2010 11:49 silencesc wrote: Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused.
On November 10 2010 11:41 Sabu113 wrote: Wtf.
Just saw the patch notes. Really disappointed.
Bleh. I guess I should be fair and give them more time but cmon. PvT changes they can do that without affecting the GSL finals.
This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units.
edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME.
well blizzard said there would be changes to marauder stim, and templar storm. im expecting some kind of nerf on both. its mentioned in one of the state of the game podcasts. and was on the sc2 site.
edit: and they fixed thors so they DONT target medivacs if theres a combat unit they can shoot first.
Didn't bliz say they thought marauder stim was fine, but marine stim was questionable, at Blizzcon? Or have we heard further word?
What they said was that Marauder stim was not cost-effective. You don't do enough extra damage to make up for the injury you cause to your own units. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, though, because it's not like Marauders need a buff. I think it's good that overeager stimmers can often kill themselves off for the sake of a few extra DPS.
Oh wow, I bursted out laughing while reading this. I personally think that TvZ is in a great shape at the moment and they should work on balancing PvT late/earlygame so that they wouldn't be so lopsided, but I really would love to see them buff Marauder stim for the total outbreak on their forums. xD
On November 10 2010 11:49 silencesc wrote: Hold up. So they patched thors so they hit MEDIVACS? Doesn't that mean that people thought there was an imbalance in a MIRROR matchup? I am so confused.
This fixes TvT. haha not PvT. It says medivacs, not air units.
edit: did you mean that this affects PvT, or that it doesn't but should. Cause marauder stim timing nerfs would be AWESOME.
Yeah, patch notes *say* Thor, but what actually changed is *all* units that can target both air and ground... Medivacs are now lower priority than combat units, for all units. Not just a TvT affecting change at all.
I don't care too much either way about the change itself - it's probably a slight Protoss nerf (thus maintaining the record) because the deathball vs MMM will now do lower effective dps unless you micro the stalkers onto the medivacs..
What concerns me more is *how did the patch notes get this wrong?* Did they not test what they're changing on the rest of the game? Is this what led to the Phoenix bug last time? This gives me no confidence we won't see bugs like that again...
On November 10 2010 13:40 Crichton wrote:What they said was that Marauder stim was not cost-effective. You don't do enough extra damage to make up for the injury you cause to your own units. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, though, because it's not like Marauders need a buff. I think it's good that overeager stimmers can often kill themselves off for the sake of a few extra DPS.
i'm pretty sure that when they said this it was in reference to one of the changes that they were testing, not the way marauder stim works currently in the game
You may be right. I'm looking for the actual quote I'd heard from BlizzCon, but I can't find it. What I see on Bnet Community is this, as part of an article on community feedback:
When talking with the community, a common perception is that marauders are too powerful and their Stimpacks need to be nerfed. When running scenarios in Make Combat, it appears that marauder Stim isn’t overpowered and the terrans end up nearly evenly matched with zerg.
What I understand from that is: "the community thinks that Marauder stim is OP, but it isn't, based on our testing."
But then they go on to say:
Make Combat simulations also show the developers that marine Stimpacks are very powerful; however, it may be that marauders are acting as shields for the marines behind them. So is it that marauder health is too high? Or are marine Stimpacks are too powerful? We still don't know -- but we’re always looking for answers to questions like these.
I'm really not sure what they're saying. Are they saying Marine stim is OP when combined with Marauder meat-shields?
It's really hard to tell what they're trying to say because the it reads like it was written by one of my ESL students: "Are marine Stimpacks are too powerful?"
Hopefully we'll see an actual interview with the balance team soon that can let us know in a more concise and grammatically-correct way what the balance team is thinking about stim at this time.
Until then, I'll keep looking to find that quote that I'm fairly sure I heard that said that Marauder stim wasn't cost-effective.
On a seperate topic:
Yeah, patch notes *say* Thor, but what actually changed is *all* units that can target both air and ground... Medivacs are now lower priority than combat units, for all units. Not just a TvT affecting change at all.
So my Stalkers will stop targeting Medivacs? Sweet Jesus, that makes me happy. I only have so much APM, it was getting exhausting trying to make sure that my Stalkers only shot Medivacs when I wanted them to.
The big question now is whether or not the patch notes were worded TERRIBLY, or whether or not the Medivac change is a "bug" and going to be changed in 2 weeks to just effect the Thor.
On November 10 2010 11:58 Eminent Rising wrote: if toss gets nerfed again i'll switch to terran for good. my heart can only take so much
my sentiments kinda exactly, cept Ill join the swarm. God speed toss buddy.
It's funny to see this across all the races. Terran users are talking about switching to Zerg, Zerg users switching to Protoss, Protoss users switching to Terran.
The grass really always is greener, I guess.
The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region).
Honestly, I think the game needs a few balance tweaks here and there in certain matchups (PvT), but overall it is fine.
As pros have proven, you can literally win any tournament with any race. The balance is not broken to the level where it needs to be QQ'd about in every forum thread known to man-kind, and it is certainly not broken enough to switch races.
One thing is for certain, Starcraft 2 is a hell of a lot more balanced than Starcraft 1 was 3 months after release. Brb, going to 4-pool autowin... 1998 for the win.
I think you're misunderstanding people's reasons for switching races. Before the roach range buff, the warpgate cooldown nerf, and zealot build time increase, Protoss could be really, really agressive early game and still expand behind the agression. Now, with mass roach early game and fewer gateway units available, I've been forced to 2gate robo into expand and defend until there are a nice number of collosi out, in other words: play very passively. This isn't my style. I'd switch races not because I think that protoss is "less powerful" than they, nor because I think that a certain composition for another race "counters" standard protoss openings, but merely because I like to be more agressive and cute with my play, and at least right now I can't do that with toss until late gate DT/HT are out.
I wasn't talking about balance, I was talking about play style.
Edit: Have you seen a protoss in the RO8 in gsl1? or in the RO4 for gsl 2? In fact, what's the last tournament a protoss won? The problem is that the role of protoss has changed from being about putting on lots of pressure to force a certain tech tree with gateway units, then throwing down stargate/robo tech to counter that, to turtle until collosi with range pop, then get stomped by a mobile MMM or muta bling ball: no one has figured out how to change their style to match what blizzard has warped protoss into.
edit to edit: Except Liquid`Tyler. His phoenixes make me smile.
yea i would like to have seen a little work done on toss it would be nice to making something other than phoenixes in PvZ.
also i wouldnt be surprised with another patch coming soon. the GSL 2 finals are soon and blizzard definitely doesnt want to have any patch bugs floating around during that or login problems. someone else said this on first page and definite validity to that.
but yea protoss could use a little tweaking kind of been ignored in most patches minus the voidray.
On November 10 2010 12:18 dcemuser wrote: ... The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region). ...
Hmm.. The lasts statistics I saw* had Terran at 56% win vs Protoss which was giving them an indication they might want to do something. On the other hand interviews with Protoss pro-gamers gave them an inconclusive answer.
*It's a couple of weeks ago so they might have release some updated statistics
Hmm.. The lasts statistics I saw* had Terran at 56% win vs Protoss which was giving them an indication they might want to do something. On the other hand interviews with Protoss pro-gamers gave them an inconclusive answer.
Actually, it said Protoss has a 56 winrate over Terran on the US server...
What a waste of a download also. Thor change in priority of attack whoopie.
Pretend it never existed and voila, you are back to your happy self.
Tried it and didn't work for me - because now bnet always logs me off when I watch "old" replays, man this is annoying just because of such a redundant bugfix.
Well, I guess we won't see a "real" balance patch anytime soon when blizz felt they have to release this fix with a seperate patch "now"....if they intended to release a balance-patch after the GSL-finals, they could've easily waited with this one too, I suppose.
EDIT: also fyi, on blizzcon blizz said that marine-stim was indeed extremely powerful in their opinion and they found marauder-stim to be ok - what they obviously missed in their "make combat" was the fact that marauder-stim is strong because of the added speed which makes stimmed marauder-kiting (including maybe even some colossi-sniping) terribly threatening.
On November 10 2010 12:18 dcemuser wrote: ... The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region). ...
Hmm.. The lasts statistics I saw* had Terran at 56% win vs Protoss which was giving them an indication they might want to do something. On the other hand interviews with Protoss pro-gamers gave them an inconclusive answer.
*It's a couple of weeks ago so they might have release some updated statistics
There is a recent thread listing match up % for diamond in all regions, and protoss is 55-45 vs terran in NA but reversed in EU and Korea.
On November 10 2010 12:18 dcemuser wrote: ... The win percentages are not way out of whack in high diamond according to Blizzard's statistics, even after accounting for rating (no race is above 55% or below 45% in ANY matchup in ANY region). ...
Hmm.. The lasts statistics I saw* had Terran at 56% win vs Protoss which was giving them an indication they might want to do something. On the other hand interviews with Protoss pro-gamers gave them an inconclusive answer.
*It's a couple of weeks ago so they might have release some updated statistics
There is a recent thread listing match up % for diamond in all regions, and protoss is 55-45 vs terran in NA but reversed in EU and Korea.
I don't trust those adjusted win-percentages in the slightest - I mean, all they can possibly filter out is the "favoured/non-favoured" and the bonus-pool. There's no way to tell if some players are indeed "equally skilled". Beside that, who knows, maybe protoss is still ridiculously overpowered from bronze to gold because you don't need any tactical or strategical knowledge to execute a 4-gate? Or maybe zerg is OP in bronze because you can probably win 70-80% of your matches there with 6-pools a-moving lings, so all it takes for a bronze-player is to realize that this build exists? Also maybe terran is OP in high diamond because it requires a much higher theoretical knowledge for protoss to get the right unit-composition to survive early and transition safely into colossi, while terrans don't have to "think" that much about what they need to build when?
We will never know. Blizz will never be able to convince me, that they can compare the matchups while completely negating player skill.
So Blizzard goes ahead and patch priority so that medivacs don't get autokilled when they run in front of an army in big fights, but they leave the glaring issues of PFs and repairing SCVs alone. Looks like Blizz needs to reexamine its own priorities.
On November 10 2010 13:56 Paradice wrote: Yeah, patch notes *say* Thor, but what actually changed is *all* units that can target both air and ground... Medivacs are now lower priority than combat units, for all units. Not just a TvT affecting change at all.
That's actually not too bad, I pretty much want my stalkers attacking his vikings anyway.
At least it shows that they are doing something. They still have a month and then some to put in what everyone's been wanting; Chat channels and other social implementations that don't revolve around facebook integration.
Though, I'd like to see some more creativity from Blizzard's side eventually. Then again... That might not be a good idea since they don't seem to be very good map makers...
Anyone think they'd probably put in a major update with like an off-set campaign or something? I kinda miss having those around in BW made from both Blizzard and players. Seeing as they limited the amount of maps people can upload through one account I don't think it seems to be so great.
On November 10 2010 22:16 mardi wrote: the comments on battlenet are pretty funny lol. people complaining about balance though they havent even played their placement matches.
It's a zoo over there...one of the reasons I came to TL. If I took one shot for every "OP," "UP," or "imba" I saw, I'd have died from alcohol poisoning within minutes.
I can't play any custom games since the patch was released. The Join Custom Game option says that no games are available to be played, and if I try to create a custom game, the pool to choose from is empty. Anyone else having this problem?
why isn't this changed on mutas? mutas attacking medivacs first is useless since they're so fragile, rather kill the marines a tad bit slow than waste my mutas time on killing medivacs while the marines kill the mutas slowly
IMO everything in the game should attack the nearest enemy "thing" regardless of type.
The priority system is practically designed to cater to casuals who would suffer from bad positioning and control, but gives stupid advantages to those who abuse the system, like stacking SCVs in front of ones army, which severely hinders Zerg's short range army.
On November 11 2010 06:20 ktimekiller wrote: The whole target priority system is utter bull.
IMO everything in the game should attack the nearest enemy "thing" regardless of type.
This is a terrible idea. There's a reason why we have unit AI and attack priority.
The priority system is practically designed to cater to casuals who would suffer from bad positioning and control, but gives stupid advantages to those who abuse the system, like stacking SCVs in front of ones army, which severely hinders Zerg's short range army.
If you want everything to attack the nearest enemy thing, how would that change SCVs being used as meat shields? If anything, it would make it more useful. All your units would focus on the SCVs and ignore as they all got shot at by the ranged units right behind.
On November 11 2010 08:05 Crichton wrote: If you want everything to attack the nearest enemy thing, how would that change SCVs being used as meat shields? If anything, it would make it more useful. All your units would focus on the SCVs and ignore as they all got shot at by the ranged units right behind.
The reason SCVs as meatshields (with auto-repair) is so strong is that Zerglings try to attack things behind the SCVs even when there's no way for them to get at them without killing the SCVs. Which makes them run around like headless chickens. Ranged units auto-attacking SCVs wouldn't be a problem, SCVs would fall quickly anyway, or you could instead right-click the enemy you want to attack (which is hard to do with SCVs hiding behind Thors).
It's not like there aren't ways to get past that (hold position lings, Banelings to kill SCVs, etc.), it's just an annoying game "feature". But I doubt Blizzard cares, so whatever.
On November 11 2010 05:39 lindn wrote: why isn't this changed on mutas? mutas attacking medivacs first is useless since they're so fragile, rather kill the marines a tad bit slow than waste my mutas time on killing medivacs while the marines kill the mutas slowly
I much prefer hitting the medivacs. The marines just don't friggin' die when there are medivacs around.
so will this make muta-ling more effective now against terran, im thinking it will. we wont even have to magic box and the lings will tank instead of the mutas
On November 11 2010 06:20 ktimekiller wrote: The whole target priority system is utter bull.
IMO everything in the game should attack the nearest enemy "thing" regardless of type.
The priority system is practically designed to cater to casuals who would suffer from bad positioning and control, but gives stupid advantages to those who abuse the system, like stacking SCVs in front of ones army, which severely hinders Zerg's short range army.
i would be happy, it would stop my air units from running forward unto their deaths because there is a unit that shoots air back there that couldn't hit them while we were shooting these here units in the front that can't hit air.
On November 11 2010 11:19 savagebeavers wrote: so will this make muta-ling more effective now against terran, im thinking it will. we wont even have to magic box and the lings will tank instead of the mutas
On November 11 2010 06:20 ktimekiller wrote: The whole target priority system is utter bull.
IMO everything in the game should attack the nearest enemy "thing" regardless of type.
The priority system is practically designed to cater to casuals who would suffer from bad positioning and control, but gives stupid advantages to those who abuse the system, like stacking SCVs in front of ones army, which severely hinders Zerg's short range army.
On November 09 2010 12:06 NinjaWaffle wrote: Are people seriously bitching about there not being a Protoss nerf or are they just joking..? Because seriously, no.
it's a joke that protoss has been nerfed every patch thus far
Good, I'm sick of P getting nerfed every damn patch..
On November 11 2010 06:20 ktimekiller wrote: The whole target priority system is utter bull.
IMO everything in the game should attack the nearest enemy "thing" regardless of type.
The priority system is practically designed to cater to casuals who would suffer from bad positioning and control, but gives stupid advantages to those who abuse the system, like stacking SCVs in front of ones army, which severely hinders Zerg's short range army.
Could you be any more elitist?
How was that elitist? It's truth. If you surround a Thor with SCVs and i try to attack with lings, they run around in a circle not attacking anything. That is a HUGE flaw in the system, yet of course blizzard fixes thor priorities with medivacs/ground units instead of this.
EPT
blizzard you sneaky b*stard just use the thor's patch to cover them up. just a guess lol
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