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. finally someone says it, totally agreeHey Listen! - Page 14
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Indignation
United States44 Posts
. finally someone says it, totally agree | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On October 27 2010 09:27 Tone_ wrote: God I despise this thread. It's strange though. Everyone saying something incredibly stupid like "finally someone said it". They weren't waiting for someone to say it lol. They are probably guilty of it themselves, and will repeat this again and again. Ofc people are going to get frustrated with things and say they need changes (Cool?). It's not going to change because of one nobody's rant, or 1000 replies saying "yes i support this" blindly. I agree with the principles, but now how it is ironically written to belittle and accuse the reader. I think it's clearly the product of frustration over something over time. Funnily enough this is what happens when people play sc. Furthermore the majority of TL will be sensible and logical with threads, and even ignore those that are shit. Please at least make replies less smug, instead of "I've been waiting for this, finally someone said it" like some elitist jerk. Got to support the put it in strat forum seciton as a sticky or whatever, as it 100% does not belong here. go away. So basically you agree with the OP, but found a way to be argumentative anyways? Interesting | ||
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FrostOtter
United States537 Posts
The imbalance wolf-crying is only one of the issues now facing the community. Another big one is this suffocating elitism. If anyone wants SC2 to become more mainstream, more popular, and more successful, especially insofar as professional gaming is concerned, then these sorts of attitudes need to change. The view that anyone who isn't top 10 in the world sucks is one of these views; another is that anyone under diamond in rank is a mouthbreather barely capable of eating unassisted. Someone earlier in the thread used baseball as an example: clearly, high school baseball stars (for the most part) will never be in the major leagues, yet no one acts like they are talentless. Are they the best? No. Do they need help with fundamentals, or maybe just lack natural talent? Sure. Do people still watch high school and college baseball? Yeah. Because the players are still better than most of the population, and because it is fun to watch. This is the attitude that needs to change in SC2. Not to say that the game needs to be balanced just because peoples' skill levels can't pull off a certain strategy; however, that doesn't mean that the vast majority of the people who play the game should be ignored, either. I think Blizzard has done a pretty good job with this issue so far, and I hope they continue to. EDIT: Sorry if that is a bit off-topic, I thought it related a bit to the theme of humility in the OP. | ||
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kataa
United Kingdom384 Posts
On October 27 2010 09:27 Tone_ wrote: I agree with the principles, but now how it is ironically written to belittle and accuse the reader. I think it's clearly the product of frustration over something over time. Funnily enough this is what happens when people play sc. Furthermore the majority of TL will be sensible and logical with threads, and even ignore those that are shit. You familiar with the term Straw-man? The OPs post has nothing to with whether or not famous players have gotten frustrated over balance issues, whether or not people get frustrated when playing SC, or if people are sensible and ignore stupid posts. He was talking about the decline of the strategy forums due to imbalance cries, to the point where they are pretty much unreadable due to the balance whining. The attitude has shifted in SC2 from seriously caring about self improvement, to whining and hoping for an advantage next patch. People want to win NOW as oppose to working for years at it. Am I guilty of whining at times? Probably, I'm human. But I'd rather have people say to me "shut up, you're on tilt, you need to fix X and X" rather than an entire forum erupt in a flame war with half the people agreeing with me, and the over half milliantly against me. No one benefits from that environment, no one gets better at the game. Ultimately as the OP was trying to say, humility is the pre-requisit for self improvement (unless you're Idra). | ||
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Bijan
United States286 Posts
The game will be perfected over time and I see no reason to be impatient over it. For now, as players and as community contributors, we should be discussing strategy and figuring out how to overcome even the most difficult of imbalances. Obviously the argument for people crying imba is that if they make themselves heard, the issues will be resolved. Unfortunately, it is most likely that the best suggestions make up the lowest percentage of the ideas tossed out there. As it has been said before, intelligent debate and discussions backed up with replays is really the best way to deal with imbalances. It also has the added benefit of not making you look like a prick. | ||
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KCrazy
United States278 Posts
 I learned so much from the BW strat forums just by looking up other people's experiences and how posters recommend they solve them. When i do the same searches in the SC2 forums all i get is endless pages of imbalance discussions and recommendations on how blizzard can fix it ): | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
Ignoring ultra top players (~top500?), ultra bad players (the opposite side) and tournament plays we can assume that you will always have a 50% winchance. If your enemies race is better, you get the weaker player. If you enemies race is weaker, you get the better player. But in ladder you will always have a chance of 50% to win. And you can only blame the loss on yourself (or the enemy doing an "unfair" strategy), because the matchmaking system is taking care of eliminating the imbalances. Sure - you can argue that you might be a ~1800 diamond player instead of a 1500 diamond player in a perfectly balanced game. But I dont see people complaining about their low rank - only complaining about individual games. | ||
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
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Maynarde
Australia1286 Posts
On October 27 2010 12:51 Sprouter wrote: i agree that imbalance has been detrimental to cohesive discussion about sc2. you don't see people complaining about how knights can only move in L shapes, they talk about how to use this weird ability to 100% effectiveness Yeah but knights are imba though ... | ||
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Maynarde
Australia1286 Posts
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Yotta
United States270 Posts
On October 27 2010 12:51 Sprouter wrote: Chess is a mirror match, except for the fact that white moves first (not necessarily an advantage, we'll find out when they solve chess i agree that imbalance has been detrimental to cohesive discussion about sc2. you don't see people complaining about how knights can only move in L shapes, they talk about how to use this weird ability to 100% effectiveness ). It's not accurate to say "they don't complain about balance in chess, which is a successful strategy game, so we shouldn't complain about it in starcraft"That said, I love seeing threads with a [G] on them and hate ones with "OP" or "Imbalanced" in the title. | ||
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Maynarde
Australia1286 Posts
On October 27 2010 11:40 Zocat wrote: I think almost everyone knows that the matchmaking algorithm from Blizzard is working damn well. Ignoring ultra top players (~top500?), ultra bad players (the opposite side) and tournament plays we can assume that you will always have a 50% winchance. If your enemies race is better, you get the weaker player. If you enemies race is weaker, you get the better player. But in ladder you will always have a chance of 50% to win. And you can only blame the loss on yourself (or the enemy doing an "unfair" strategy), because the matchmaking system is taking care of eliminating the imbalances. Sure - you can argue that you might be a ~1800 diamond player instead of a 1500 diamond player in a perfectly balanced game. But I dont see people complaining about their low rank - only complaining about individual games. I also feel that the bolded statement is very true, and I would hate to win too much / too little. Winning too little can make you tired of the game, but winning too much makes you feel like you don't need to improve on your play. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
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Duka08
3391 Posts
Great post. Seriously I hate SC2 Strat, because no one will just ask how to improve or what to fix ABOUT THEMSELVES (99.9999999% of players) but instead go why is Terran such bullshit roflzlzlzlzlzlzlzz BRB GETTIN WASTED LOL I HAVE A LIFE! Threads in general and strat that are about genuine players trying to improve and tweak/refine a strat warm my heart, compared to the 99/100 threads about how bullshit another race or unit is. | ||
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pat965
Canada274 Posts
On October 27 2010 10:44 FrostOtter wrote: I completely agree with the OP. Where I find fault continually is the condescending attitude toward issues the "casual" gamers have. Apparently the people making such comments have never looked at the distribution of players throughout the leagues. I can't understand why it is silly of Blizzard to try to make the game fun for the millions of people that they want to keep spending money instead of catering solely to the whims of a few thousand people (even less for the pro group). The imbalance wolf-crying is only one of the issues now facing the community. Another big one is this suffocating elitism. If anyone wants SC2 to become more mainstream, more popular, and more successful, especially insofar as professional gaming is concerned, then these sorts of attitudes need to change. The view that anyone who isn't top 10 in the world sucks is one of these views; another is that anyone under diamond in rank is a mouthbreather barely capable of eating unassisted. Someone earlier in the thread used baseball as an example: clearly, high school baseball stars (for the most part) will never be in the major leagues, yet no one acts like they are talentless. Are they the best? No. Do they need help with fundamentals, or maybe just lack natural talent? Sure. Do people still watch high school and college baseball? Yeah. Because the players are still better than most of the population, and because it is fun to watch. This is the attitude that needs to change in SC2. Not to say that the game needs to be balanced just because peoples' skill levels can't pull off a certain strategy; however, that doesn't mean that the vast majority of the people who play the game should be ignored, either. I think Blizzard has done a pretty good job with this issue so far, and I hope they continue to. EDIT: Sorry if that is a bit off-topic, I thought it related a bit to the theme of humility in the OP. Well, his post was indeed about being humble, but he also mentions that we were also elitists. The good kind of elitists. I believe he meant to be humble and recognize that as a player, you need to get better, and had you been faster or smarter in any given game, you could have won. You could discuss balance, but what you couldn't do is point to something, call it bullshit, and pretend you did everything right in a game and lost. This is one of the most important outlooks you can have when it comes to something like Starcraft, or life in general. Recognizing your own failings, and prioritizing self-improvement over blame - an attitude we should all respect. This was somewhat enforced through elitism in the old TL - basically ignoring attitudes that sought to blame others instead of themselves. The elitism isn't baseless, I thought it served a very good purpose of correcting or at least discouraging the horrible aforementioned attitudes. Those who weren't humble with regards to their own skills, or those who basically complain all day - they were shunned. If you had a good question, or a replay that you needed help with, the community would welcome you with open arms - provided you actually looked at the replay, analyzed it to the best of your ability, presented your findings, and at least considered the answers you were given. I know the words "elitism" and "humble" can be contradictory, but in this case it isn't. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
Good post. | ||
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stupidhydro
United States216 Posts
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Gingerninja
United Kingdom1339 Posts
Also agree with all the sentiments stated, I'm pretty terrible but I've been playing better as of recent, it's not the games fault when I lose cos there's always at least a couple things off the top of my head i know i screwed up before i even go near the reply. | ||
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
On October 27 2010 10:44 FrostOtter wrote: I completely agree with the OP. Where I find fault continually is the condescending attitude toward issues the "casual" gamers have. Apparently the people making such comments have never looked at the distribution of players throughout the leagues. I can't understand why it is silly of Blizzard to try to make the game fun for the millions of people that they want to keep spending money instead of catering solely to the whims of a few thousand people (even less for the pro group). The imbalance wolf-crying is only one of the issues now facing the community. Another big one is this suffocating elitism. If anyone wants SC2 to become more mainstream, more popular, and more successful, especially insofar as professional gaming is concerned, then these sorts of attitudes need to change. The view that anyone who isn't top 10 in the world sucks is one of these views; another is that anyone under diamond in rank is a mouthbreather barely capable of eating unassisted. Someone earlier in the thread used baseball as an example: clearly, high school baseball stars (for the most part) will never be in the major leagues, yet no one acts like they are talentless. Are they the best? No. Do they need help with fundamentals, or maybe just lack natural talent? Sure. Do people still watch high school and college baseball? Yeah. Because the players are still better than most of the population, and because it is fun to watch. This is the attitude that needs to change in SC2. Not to say that the game needs to be balanced just because peoples' skill levels can't pull off a certain strategy; however, that doesn't mean that the vast majority of the people who play the game should be ignored, either. I think Blizzard has done a pretty good job with this issue so far, and I hope they continue to. EDIT: Sorry if that is a bit off-topic, I thought it related a bit to the theme of humility in the OP. I agree with this. While it is also clear that a low diamond or lesser player shouldn't blame his losses on imbalance (or the game being "broken") but rather work on his shortcomings, I think the attitude that 95 percent of the world's SC2 players are morons is not only offensive to these players but also counterproductive if we want SC2 to flourish as an e-sport. Noone would suggest that people playing football in the backyards and competing locally are all morons just because their play is nowhere near the play of the guys in national teams. Somehow though, in SC2 such an attitude is quite common. That's a bad kind of elitism. (I'm not saying that TL.net is "officially" like that, it's just something that I see in the forums regularly.) | ||
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GrazerRinge
999 Posts
Discussion is absolutely ok, but complaining way too much (=bitching) about the balance shows the true intelligence of the poster. | ||
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