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Hey Listen! - Page 16

Forum Index > SC2 General
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sva
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States749 Posts
October 28 2010 00:42 GMT
#301
yea, at times I miss the way tl was before sc2. When I just lurked the strategy section to improve my d Terran play. Occasionally I glance at the sc2 strategy section and i'm flabbergasted by the childish things that have become the outcome of mainstream e-sports. I completely agree with the OP and think everyone should try and improve instead of try and improve the game. I'll admit i'm a 1700 rated Terran and I'm still awful at this game. I'm sure most of us are, just keep working to get better.
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
October 28 2010 03:57 GMT
#302
And yet the endless stream of garbage continues.....
:)
Hectic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia159 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-28 22:13:49
October 28 2010 13:30 GMT
#303
This has been said many times before. Even before SC2.

As far as im concerned, the strat forums have always been garbage, for the simple reason that it's full of people who need help with strategy as opposed to people who are great at strategy (who are probably practicing instead of reading your posts).

As far as imbal discussion is concerned, it's only natural since blizzard is in the process of changing the game frequently.

The reason no one complained about imbalance in broodwar (apart from it being very balanced) is because the game has not been balance patched in many years; it's been obvious for a long time that broodwar is 'job complete' as a game.

My advice is unless you want mindless entertainment and have time to burn, dont visit the strategy forums, and instead spend your time playing or watching top players play.

I gave up on the strategy forum looong before sc2...

What the strategy forum needs is a reccomended threads page and some stickied and archived guides (like the broodwar forums). It's no wonder there's an excess of rubbish posts when newcomers cannot easily find a few simple guides at the top of the first page.

People are probably more likely to make bad posts when they are not provided with the most basic and simple information (such as attitude and approach to learning the game).

The constant moderation is great, but without substantial content you're just repeatedly flushing the toilet instead of polishing the daimond. Maybe there needs to be more people (top players and good writers) willing to contribute (for free). Unfortunately for new players, good written content is probably harder to find than it used to be, because people are trying to make money off it now.

Ironically this post is just a thread full of people complaining about people complaining which curiously, I find even more disturbing. Bottom line is if this place is going to be useful to anyone, some useful posts and guides need to be made and stickied.

Telling people not to be dumb doesn't really work.
Only if you beleive.
Hectic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia159 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-28 14:22:28
October 28 2010 14:19 GMT
#304
Apparently I double posted please delete this one.
Only if you beleive.
Orange Dream
Profile Joined October 2010
10 Posts
October 28 2010 14:30 GMT
#305
:p The games still young. In a year or two most of the whiners will move on to a NEW game that's flashier and more suited to their mental capacity. That is, assuming they don't come back for the 2nd and 3rd installments of sc2. The people who stick with sc2 through all it's hiccups and troubles will probably end up with the same sort of community SC:BW had (and has? :p I didn't play BW competitively at all, and such never went on the forums).

Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-28 15:10:51
October 28 2010 15:04 GMT
#306
On October 28 2010 22:30 Hectic wrote:
What the strategy forum needs is a reccomended threads page and some stickied and archived guides (like the broodwar forums). It's no wonder there's an excess of rubbish posts when newcomers cannot easily find a few simple guides at the top of the first page.

Obviously you haven't heard about liquipedia. You seem to have also missed the stickies, "How to improve" and "recommended threads." Don't make sweeping generalizations about the strategy forum being bad when you obviously haven't seen very much of TL.

Edit: To be fair, you did say "like the broodwar forums." However, liquidpedia for sc2 still exists. The reason there aren't threads like that in SC2 strat forums is because the good people haven't made them yet. You can't expect perfect guides while the game is still changing and they shouldn't be required for new players.

On October 28 2010 22:30 Hectic wrote:
How can you expect people not to complain about silly things when they are not provided with the most basic and simple information (such as attitude and approach to learning the game).

Why are people without the "most basic and simple information" complaining? How is that our fault?

On October 28 2010 22:30 Hectic wrote:
The constant moderation is great, but without substantial content you're just repeatedly flushing the toilet instead of polishing the daimond. Maybe there needs to be more people (top players and good writers) willing to contribute (for free). Unfortunately for new players, good written content is probably harder to find than it used to be, because people are trying to make money off it now.

TL has always had fantastic free content. We have a community of great players who often contribute great things. Great players such as nony and ret have posted in threads, been on TL:Attack, and the replay analysis videos.
GreatFall
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1061 Posts
October 28 2010 18:03 GMT
#307
I think a lot of players are new and they just weren't a part of BW culture. BW had many years to grow and become what it is. And people were pretty convinced that the game was balanced. With a new game such as SCII, I just think people have a hard time becoming convinced that the game is balanced. Hopefully it all changes soon and the game grows to where BW was.
Inventor of the 'Burning Tide' technique to quickly getting Outmatched Crusher achivement :D
Mintastic
Profile Joined October 2010
United States166 Posts
October 28 2010 18:25 GMT
#308
Give it time, SC2 is still new. Over time the whiners will get bored or realize they haven't improved enough as a player to keep up with the rest of the community then leave. Then the people left will be the right kind of people to make these forums worth reading again.
테징징
Hectic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia159 Posts
October 28 2010 22:07 GMT
#309
On October 29 2010 00:04 Durak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2010 22:30 Hectic wrote:
What the strategy forum needs is a reccomended threads page and some stickied and archived guides (like the broodwar forums). It's no wonder there's an excess of rubbish posts when newcomers cannot easily find a few simple guides at the top of the first page.

Obviously you haven't heard about liquipedia. You seem to have also missed the stickies, "How to improve" and "recommended threads." Don't make sweeping generalizations about the strategy forum being bad when you obviously haven't seen very much of TL.

Edit: To be fair, you did say "like the broodwar forums." However, liquidpedia for sc2 still exists. The reason there aren't threads like that in SC2 strat forums is because the good people haven't made them yet. You can't expect perfect guides while the game is still changing and they shouldn't be required for new players.

Show nested quote +
On October 28 2010 22:30 Hectic wrote:
How can you expect people not to complain about silly things when they are not provided with the most basic and simple information (such as attitude and approach to learning the game).

Why are people without the "most basic and simple information" complaining? How is that our fault?

Show nested quote +
On October 28 2010 22:30 Hectic wrote:
The constant moderation is great, but without substantial content you're just repeatedly flushing the toilet instead of polishing the daimond. Maybe there needs to be more people (top players and good writers) willing to contribute (for free). Unfortunately for new players, good written content is probably harder to find than it used to be, because people are trying to make money off it now.

TL has always had fantastic free content. We have a community of great players who often contribute great things. Great players such as nony and ret have posted in threads, been on TL:Attack, and the replay analysis videos.


I'm not an idiot, i know about all the resources on TL, but alot of new people dont. There's currently nothing to point new players in the right direction when they click on "SC2 Strategy" and all they see is a bunch garbage posts to guide them.

my whole point was that it needs more resources, like the broodwar forums did. Even a link to liquipedia. If i was new i probably wouldn't even bother to click on liquipedia. The only reason TL has even been good is because of these things, not because people whinge about bad posters.

anyways, good work for trying to shutdown someone with some suggestions. I guess in the end complaining about bad posters is really what makes everything work out in the end.

Only if you beleive.
Dwar3xwar
Profile Joined August 2010
39 Posts
October 28 2010 23:19 GMT
#310
thanks for the post =]. Really nice to see someone who knows about the game and not someone who is clearly a whiny 14 year old yelling imba.
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
October 28 2010 23:23 GMT
#311
It's tough to find people who are both amazing players and have free time to contribute their hard won experience for free. Teamliquid has many many people who try, but they're getting overrun a bit by the new posters.

tl;dr: listen before speaking/posting, and you'll probably learn more
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
orcslayermac
Profile Joined July 2010
United States138 Posts
October 29 2010 13:49 GMT
#312
Thank you for the amazing post. I think everyone that even plays Starcraft 2 should read this post. I think we're all incredibly tired of everyone feeling entitled to their balance changes. Personally I believe this is because of the massive number of people involved in beta testing. They're used to seeing things get nerfed because they're so powerful. Now they're used to crying that something is "OP" and it gets a nerf eventually. Also, a large number (12 million) of gamers play wow and are used to all this balance talk. In my opinion, there is a lot of room for balance talk in that game because the numbers really do change very frequently (nerf warlocks ^___^) But this mentality of "OP" has seeped into Starcraft 2 where it wasn't before, in Starcraft: BW. I completely agree with this wonderful post and truly wish everyone would read it.
Terran A+move... Right into my banelings? Yes please!
Arco
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2090 Posts
October 29 2010 13:55 GMT
#313
On October 28 2010 22:30 Hectic wrote:
What the strategy forum needs is a reccomended threads page and some stickied and archived guides


This is exactly what we need. I think this would be a great addition. Are there any plans for this in the works?

Also, I agree that people need to calm down a little bit with the QQ, the game isn't perfect but it's damn balanced for it's infancy.
bobcat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States488 Posts
October 29 2010 17:59 GMT
#314
I think everyone can take something away from this thread. Myself included.
"I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes
humblegar
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Norway883 Posts
October 30 2010 11:33 GMT
#315
On October 29 2010 22:55 Tump wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2010 22:30 Hectic wrote:
What the strategy forum needs is a reccomended threads page and some stickied and archived guides


This is exactly what we need. I think this would be a great addition. Are there any plans for this in the works?

Also, I agree that people need to calm down a little bit with the QQ, the game isn't perfect but it's damn balanced for it's infancy.


This. And I think we need some stickied threads that address the typical newb concerns that show up all the time (random examples):

- how to play against early marauders by Huk and Haypro
- how to play against 4gate by Jinro
- what are the strengths of my race by TLO

These would of course be mandatory to read before posting.

And nicely put mahnini!
Yeld
Profile Joined April 2010
Austria106 Posts
October 30 2010 11:46 GMT
#316
Isn't there a rule that you would have to post 8 replays showing the percieved "imbalance" in order to make any claims like that? The mods might be too lenient in this regard.
KiLmer
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway39 Posts
October 30 2010 16:40 GMT
#317
I feel better just having read this, thank you
~
oHInsane
Profile Joined February 2005
France727 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-30 17:00:35
October 30 2010 16:56 GMT
#318
Honnestly, the strategy forum makes me angry inside. When i read it and i foudn something stupid in it, I'm hoping that blizz isn't reading it or taking some random points as if it was set in the stone to balance the game.

Fortunately, from time to time, you can find some nice gems of advices, but it's hard to find them but most of the time, it's some random rants. Give the game some time, it's not because today you have hard time dealing with a strategy that you won't counter it later. In my clan, I'am the only one who were there during sc1 and I keep telling to my mates, who feel desperate about a strat, to try something else, refine it and make a conclusion after that.

The process of balancing is often the desire of the player to win the game while playing with his comfortable build order.

It's like the controversy reaper vs Zerg before patch. At first, on the one hand I was like "ok reapers are OP, I can't win vs them". On the other hand, I was thinking, "dammit, some good players can win vs reapers so I must do it too, I must learn how to do that" instead of thinking i'm too good to be beat . Too often you see in the strategy forum someone asking for a help and he doesn't even want to listen answers he got...
Balancing and Understanding the game are two very different things that are mixed up in the strategy.

It's too hard to be at the same time the judge and the attorney. When you play SC, you need to think twice, test a lot of timings/bo/army composition, refinining everything you can before stating anything.

Starcraft 1 showed us that, even after many years of progaming, there were still a lot of misconceptions and things to learn. The vast majority of the players can't judge the balance of the game, that's a fact, only a large sample at a high can show some imbalances in my humble opinion.
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
October 30 2010 16:59 GMT
#319
Quality post! Couldn't agree more.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
October 30 2010 23:05 GMT
#320
Cool post, I find that basically every1 is just saying the same thing about imbalance which is dumb because not all the races are equivalent. If you want to play a completely balanced game of SC2 ask for blizzard to make only 1 race.
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
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