|
This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
|
On October 25 2010 03:36 brothathunda wrote:
I guess so TBO, I just think it was a bad time to switch. Even if it was with all the right intentions, given the recent patch, it makes it seem like he's just hoping from Terran to Zerg given the recent difficulties Terran has been having since the 1.1.2 patch.
I do agree that Zerg fits TLO's play style a bit more than Terran though. So I'm sure it will work out for him. Just disappointed as a Terran player I guess.
Well I think it was said he was practicing zerg already, perhaps planning to play it for Blizzcon and that the patch came at an inopportune time for him, in a way. It made him look cheap.
|
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote:
This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
|
He was random in beta and was playing still zerg recently, the recent patch made him switch for this period to zerg because of their macro advantage. Not a mistery there. If i was into competitive play and had good zerg practice, i would do the same. At that level you just play to win without complaining about balance.
|
On October 25 2010 03:52 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote:
This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are. You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
Yes. They can.
The patches was less than a month ago, really, learn2play. As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
|
To be completely honest, the TvZ MU now feels like pushing a large rock up a steep hill for Terrans. They have nothing to really threaten a Zerg's FE, so they'll always be behind economically if they don't do some decent harass. And your harassment options are limited because reapers come too late, helions will pretty much always take damage from roaches against a decent Zerg, and queens w/ overseers can fend off cloaked banshees. A terran's most effective harassment is probably going to be double starport banshees, but even then the Zerg could just counterattack since you won't really have much.
On the other side, once a Zerg gets the critical mass of mutalisks, a Terran can't really move out of his base or reasonably take a third since his army would be too spread out. At that point Zerg can just drone, expand, and spread creep.
|
@ Nav: Much more than reapers were nerfed in these previous patches. Maybe you're still playing BW a bit too much, since if you were playing SC2 you would know that a depot before rax prevents any type of early 9 rax/10 rax aggression. You would also know that medivac acceleration and top speed was reduced, so that stalkers easily catch up and snipe them. You would also know that siege tank damage has been reduced from 50 to 35 against light armored units. You would also know that bunkers build 5 seconds slower. All of these are substantial nerfs. Do not discount them.
@ Mythical: Yeah, very true. I think TLO will excel at zerg though so in a way I guess I am excited.
@ Faint: I believe he is talking about early aggression. If you haven't noticed Zergs now freely take a very greedy 14 hatch, because they no longer have to worry about a 9 or 10 rax.
|
Nice, i was wondering why he played zerg on blizzcon, the thought that he did it for balls was pretty weird. Looking forward to learn his infestor play!
|
On October 25 2010 03:55 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 03:52 MythicalMage wrote:On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote:
This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are. You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before. Yes. They can. The patches was less than a month ago, really, learn2play. As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
None of that is early game. Mid game harass? Sure. But you can't apply EARLY pressure. You can theoretically rush for ghost, but ghosts can't hold pushes against Zerg the way they can against Protoss. Banshees might be the option, Boxer was using them quite well recently. But again, it's not early.
|
It´s funny how I´m never a huge fan of these guys who change races like IdrA and TLO.
I know they are great gamers but something in my nerdy brains always seems to identify the real Terran spirit in a player. TLO´s little smile always gave him away, that untrostworthy look of real swindler...a zerg. So I was not surprised when he decided to leave the path of true honor.
|
For a while when he was allowed to race pick, he chose to play Zerg against Terran rather than tvt. At a time when the matchup was heavily favoring Terran, he chose to play Zerg anyway. I don't think it's appropriate to say he just switches to the best race. He obviously wants to be creative. I am very sad to see him switch from Terran, but the patch really cut into the early game options and flexibility for the race so it's not that surprising.
|
On October 25 2010 03:55 Fa1nT wrote:
As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
Ghosts? Expensive garbage against a macroing Zerg, too expensive for early game.
Banshees? Made of paper and useless once Lair is out.
Hellions of all varieties are raped by roaches.
Ravens kinda sorta work.
Every TvZ will degenerate to the same turtling Terran with Thors/tanks/marines versus a Zerg on 5+ bases. It's gone from badly balanced to badly balanced, with Z having a slight upper hand instead of T.
Terran now plays almost exactly like a weaker, less mobile Toss in that matchup.
|
On October 25 2010 04:04 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 03:55 Fa1nT wrote:
As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
Ghosts? Expensive garbage against a macroing Zerg, too expensive for early game. Banshees? Made of paper and useless once Lair is out. Hellions of all varieties are raped by roaches. Ravens kinda sorta work. Every TvZ will degenerate to the same turtling Terran with Thors/tanks/marines versus a Zerg on 5+ bases. It's gone from badly balanced to badly balanced, with Z having a slight upper hand instead of T. Terran now plays almost exactly like a weaker, less mobile Toss in that matchup.
Yeah. It used to be that Terran could go mech, but now, like Toss, they need a core of low tier units.
|
Yeah i think it's a good decision to switch to Zerg at this time.
Does he play the next GSL Season as a Zerg?
|
On October 25 2010 04:00 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 03:55 Fa1nT wrote:On October 25 2010 03:52 MythicalMage wrote:On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote:
This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are. You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before. Yes. They can. The patches was less than a month ago, really, learn2play. As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens? None of that is early game. Mid game harass? Sure. But you can't apply EARLY pressure. You can theoretically rush for ghost, but ghosts can't hold pushes against Zerg the way they can against Protoss. Banshees might be the option, Boxer was using them quite well recently. But again, it's not early.
Banshees can come out 30-40 food, I think that's early enough to do SOME damage to a Zerg player.
I mean ofc Reapers are gone now and Hellions are less effective, but still consider that practically nothing else has changed, Drops are still as effective as ever.
Let's also consider the fact that with more Z players doing FE that Terran players can now play with the idea that their own FE will be safer.
And who says that pressure has to be put on early for it to be effective? Blue flame hellions drops are the most horrifying thing I have ever seen 
|
On October 25 2010 04:08 Syro wrote:
Yeah i think it's a good decision to switch to Zerg at this time.
Does he play the next GSL Season as a Zerg?
I would think so he has more than enough time to practice it.
|
On October 25 2010 04:08 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 04:00 MythicalMage wrote:On October 25 2010 03:55 Fa1nT wrote:On October 25 2010 03:52 MythicalMage wrote:On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote:
This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are. You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before. Yes. They can. The patches was less than a month ago, really, learn2play. As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens? None of that is early game. Mid game harass? Sure. But you can't apply EARLY pressure. You can theoretically rush for ghost, but ghosts can't hold pushes against Zerg the way they can against Protoss. Banshees might be the option, Boxer was using them quite well recently. But again, it's not early. Banshees can come out 30-40 food, I think that's early enough to do SOME damage to a Zerg player. I mean ofc Reapers are gone now and Hellions are less effective, but still consider that practically nothing else has changed, Drops are still as effective as ever. Let's also consider the fact that with more Z players doing FE that Terran players can now play with the idea that their own FE will be safer. And who says that pressure has to be put on early for it to be effective? Blue flame hellions drops are the most horrifying thing I have ever seen Plus a banshee has to kill 5+ drones to really be worth it, something that's not necessarily possible with Queens. Or of course, they could rush you with roaches and win. And Drops are so much slower if you read the patch notes. Mutalisks effectively shut down drops. And with speedlings, Terran FE is always risky unless you over defend with bunkers and the like. Maybe you should build a PF at your natural.
Why does it have to be early? Because once a Zerg gets a strong economy, they're nearly unstoppable. Late game harass is nice, but early game is what that matchup is made of. That's what TLO relied upon, and now it's almost gone.
|
On October 25 2010 04:08 Syro wrote:
Yeah i think it's a good decision to switch to Zerg at this time.
Does he play the next GSL Season as a Zerg?
Yes, that's what switching to Zerg means, among other things.
|
Oh please don't let this degenerate into a balance discussion. This was actually moderately interesting at first. Be interesting to see how he does in GSL 3.
|
On October 25 2010 04:21 Piy wrote:
Oh please don't let this degenerate into a balance discussion. This was actually moderately interesting at first. Be interesting to see how he does in GSL 3.
Well balance seems like the only reason to make a change at this point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
