On October 24 2010 01:41 Irrational_Animal wrote: Are there any deep lying reasons behind his decision or is TLO just displeased with the current T matchups? All in all I approve his switch though as I think that Z currently gives more room for deviant play styles. Terran on the other hand is more the race for timing pushs.
I think you nailed it on the head well.
Dario has always felt that Zerg suited his play style the best and now that the early game options in Terran have been restricted he decided it was a suitable time to change. Expect more infestors, ultralisks and counter-attacking zerglings in the near future.
Personally, I'm overjoyed to have more foreign Zerg heroes in Korea, and am looking forward to seeing some inspired play.
On October 24 2010 02:18 HollowLord wrote: Well I don't think we'll ever see him switch to Protoss, he seems to really hate playing as toss so he might flipflop between zerg and terran.
GSL In-Game Regulations: you must play with the race you registered with (Terran, Protoss, Zerg, Random).
There are two ways to look at it. It either tells you how much better/more fun zerg is nowdays, or it tells you that TLO will most likely spend his SC2 career switching races after a big patch. Personally, I'm surprised a player at his level would switch so suddenly before something as major as Blizzcon. I think he really could have stood a chance against at least Dimaga if it was TvZ, but in ZvZ he must have just gotten totally rolled.
However, on the bright side of things - we get to see TLO play Zerg again, and that makes me so happy.
Zerg was interesting because they were considered to be underpowered, and what made it really fun to watch was seeing zerg players overcome those challenges with skill.
Even though he's played zerg before, TLO changing to zerg right after a patch does raise some suspicions. I just wish he would've stuck to terran now that they're at a disadvantage in the MU.
I guess what I'm saying is, I would've liked to see TLO in a MU where his race at a disadvantage. I feel it brings out the best play in people. Oh well.
Well if he was considering it for a while, I guess it's really not that big of a deal. It's not like he's suddenly switching to zerg purely because they've gotten a lot stronger.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
so he prefers zerg but he played terran for some reason for so long? while claiming that he doesnt think that T is op? and now that most of the hilarious early game options terran has have been nerfed, hes jumping on the next bandwagon? this is kinda disappointing
On October 24 2010 02:21 kataa wrote: There are two ways to look at it. It either tells you how much better/more fun zerg is nowdays, or it tells you that TLO will most likely spend his SC2 career switching races after a big patch. Personally, I'm surprised a player at his level would switch so suddenly before something as major as Blizzcon. I think he really could have stood a chance against at least Dimaga if it was TvZ, but in ZvZ he must have just gotten totally rolled.
However, on the bright side of things - we get to see TLO play Zerg again, and that makes me so happy.
He's a professional progamer. So he has to get results obviously so he'll stick to the race that is the strongest. Like Dimaga once made that statement before IEM I think and I don't blame them. They have to get results as do every other progamer.
Sad to see TLO switch. My decision to play Terran is partially based on his Terran's play during beta so it's a little bit sad to see him switches race.
Also, I think the distribution of player in TL is a little bit skewed right now. IIRC; after TLO's switch, TL has 3 Zerg, 1 Terran, 2 Protoss (including Liquid'Nazgul), hasn't it? Would TL recruit new Terran player?
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
On October 24 2010 02:21 kataa wrote: There are two ways to look at it. It either tells you how much better/more fun zerg is nowdays, or it tells you that TLO will most likely spend his SC2 career switching races after a big patch. Personally, I'm surprised a player at his level would switch so suddenly before something as major as Blizzcon. I think he really could have stood a chance against at least Dimaga if it was TvZ, but in ZvZ he must have just gotten totally rolled.
However, on the bright side of things - we get to see TLO play Zerg again, and that makes me so happy.
He's a professional progamer. So he has to get results obviously so he'll stick to the race that is the strongest. Like Dimaga once made that statement before IEM I think and I don't blame them. They have to get results as do every other progamer.
TLO has an advantage over all other progamers though. When all races are perfectly balanced TLO can just switch back to random while all others are too confused about which race to choose and propably stop playing SC2
On October 24 2010 02:20 Punkstar wrote: Morrow and TLO are now zergs? lol im sure that if Idra has some emotions he would be grinning like crazy now ...
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
omg omg omg exactly what I was hoping for :D! I always liked his zerg play much more, mass infestors with fungal flying everywhere is so cash. Seems like he picked a bad time to switch though vs Sen >.>
It's like that study where you put people in two groups and give them different colored shirts to wear. Immediately you start seeing illogical in-group out-group crap. Chill people it's just a race in a game. If TLO likes Zerg more now then more power to him.
I'm excited to see more Zerg play from TLO in the future! His mechanics and creativity in the beta were exemplified with his Zerg play, he just chose Terran because Blizzard made them the best class for a while, and he likes to win. =)
Extremly short-sighted decision by TLO, it is clear that if the Zerg macro or the roach range is confirmed to be imba in the next weeks, it will get patched. And so, what is he going to do next, switch to protoss -_- ?
Maybe if HSM was buffed Terran could have some interisting late game tactics.
Shame that he was put through two ZvZs in a row at Blizzcon. I like the matchup, but Zerg takes quite a long time to readjust to, especially after playing T for so long
I agree I definitely don't think he will go random/toss, I used to love him back in the beta/early days of the game when he'd play random in every tournament and kick arse. I was sucha fan. HoweverI remember in the EU vs NA 2v2 showmatch I think it was Jinro[T] TLO[R] vs Artosis[Z] qxc-(You've probably heard of him)[P] he said he didn't like protoss much.
Great news as long as he sticks with it and not just till they nerf roach-range again
wow.... this is good news. Another zerg! He wasn't very much a protoss player anyways so I am glad he went zerg. Finally, we don't have to watch Idra do the exact same build every damn game lol looking forward to seeing what TLO will be able to do with zerg's fluidity
I know people bashing for "jumping the wagon," but he's a professional. I don't blame him for switching Terran when he preferred Zerg. Maybe he was simply waiting for the balance changes to come through?
Honestly i feel once hes practiced, TLO will be within the Top 5 Zerg players.
Fruitdealer, Sen, Idra, CheckPrime, TLO
I know it sounds crazy to rate him so high, but do you guys really think TLO's Zerg is worse than Zenio, The Wind, Slush, Dimaga, Artosis, Machine, Ret, Haypro, Ogs Cezenna, NesTea, Luffy,
On October 24 2010 02:20 optical630 wrote: "Dario has always felt that Zerg suited his play style the best "
he said this when he swapped to terran, however, i loved his zerg style in beta so gl!
Dario only chose T above Z cause he disliked dying too so cheesy builds. Now that reapers are kind of nerfed and Roaches can easily hold of hellions...
to bad i liked his terran play style, zerg has some super neat moves as well but not that many (or maybe they weren't discovered hehe) and you don't need to use them in order to win just survive till you have 4 hatches with queens. and the terran just doesn't know where to put all his buildings to keep up with the production xD.
Wonder if some zerg will start building a nydus at every hatch and rally their units into it and won't show whats inside till you move out to attack them. Well atm its roaches/infestors anyway since they are even better than hydras xD (well didn't tested it exactly but you really should only throw in a little amount of hydras in zvz just to be save against a fast muta conter) . or anything else atleast it looks the way in the matches.
Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Well, it's not like he randomly decided to switch to zerg; he's played it a bunch before, and a lot of people have said before that they'd like to see him switch.
It's my dream to see TLO neural parasite a ghost and launch a nuke, if that's even possible. I don't care if he has to build up all the tech structures after mind controlling an SCV 8 times, I want to see it happen.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
not dissing him in anyway, i actually really liked how he played zerg, i kind of hope he sticks with it this time.
I hope you understand that when the article says that "TLO was always felt that Zerg suited his play style" means that he always liked Zerg more then Terran. Implying that he played Terran because he didn't feel that he could be compete at a pro level with Zerg. So since Zerg is fine now(well almost, some maps need changing) TLO is free to play the race that he has always wanted to play. I was going to give an analogy, but if you can't understand why he's switching races then you wouldn't understand my analogy.
I don't think this is racehopping. Afterall he did swap from R to T before, when Z was ridiculously weak and his P wasn't that great. He made T one of the more powerful races if you guys don't recall. popularising 1/1/1. I'm sure he'll have some good ideas with Zerg.
Don't forget, he's always been a good Zerg player. This isn't Morrow trying to switch to Z.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
not dissing him in anyway, i actually really liked how he played zerg, i kind of hope he sticks with it this time.
I hope you understand that when the article says that "TLO was always felt that Zerg suited his play style" means that he always liked Zerg more then Terran. Implying that he played Terran because he didn't feel that he could be compete at a pro level with Zerg. So since Zerg is fine now(well almost, some maps need changing) TLO is free to play the race that he has always wanted to play. I was going to give an analogy, but if you can't understand why he's switching races then you wouldn't understand my analogy.
only one person is able to make an analogy of such insightfullness...
I don't care what TLO does as long as he keeps playing because he is so entertaining to watch. Don't let the haters get you down TLO. I also don't find it strange because I remember he was still referring to himself as a Terran/Zerg player a while back.
On October 24 2010 11:01 n0xi3 wrote: I think he should have stayed random.
His Protoss was just not good enough for that. It would be awesome to see him as a random though. If only his Protoss was as creative and good as his Terran...does GSL allow you to go random?
personally i always saw him as both a zerg and a terran player (even now) despite how much more often he picked terran lately. i figured he just couldn't deny the terran dominance in tourneys and lack of zerg potency. perhaps the patch and fruitdealer gave him the hope many zergs have been given.
i've always thought his zerg was better anyway so good for him for picking what he's comfortable with. TLO is so adaptive to situations that i really think the 1-building macro production which lets your compositions be a lot more flexible suits him. TLO always seems to be ahead of the pack in terms of the current style flavors of the race he plays, so i'm super excited to see what he can brew up. a large portion of major terran strats were basically created by TLO, and it's been a long time so i don't think he can do the same for zerg, but i find it impossible to believe he won't innovate.
and LOL at people thinking that zerg is suddenly not weaker just because you can't auto-win with early rushes and roaches have 1 more range. in fact the lack of auto-lose is probably why dario feels comfortable switching back, like some people have suggested
On October 24 2010 11:00 Windd wrote: I don't care what TLO does as long as he keeps playing because he is so entertaining to watch. Don't let the haters get you down TLO. I also don't find it strange because I remember he was still referring to himself as a Terran/Zerg player a while back.
Unfortunately GSL didn't allow him to race pick so he went to Terran full time as he felt it was his strongest matchup. Unfortunately he isn't happy with it so he's basically erased several months of learning. However, we have full confidence he will learn rapidly.
Switching to Zerg is a pretty wild change in just basic game play from Terran since they're so much more passive. Aggression seemed to be something that suited TLO more from my point of view. It'd be really cool if someone could get an interview with TLO about this decision and his reasons behind it and how the different play styles of the races will effect him and which he favors more.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
I feel the same way. I guess whatever wins you games.
Much respect for those players who stuck with zerg and owned prepatch.
On October 24 2010 11:03 Tachion wrote: Switching to Zerg is a pretty wild change in just basic game play from Terran since they're so much more passive. Aggression seemed to be something that suited TLO more from my point of view. It'd be really cool if someone could get an interview with TLO about this decision and his reasons behind it and how the different play styles of the races will effect him and which he favors more.
One of my favorite games since beta of SC2 was TLO playing zerg in the HDH, game 2 of the semifinals i think against Nony on blistering sands. A crazy game if you ask me. Would LOVE to see more of that!
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
I feel the same way. I guess whatever wins you games.
Much respect for those players who stuck with zerg and owned prepatch.
Again, this was not the way it was intended to appear.
He was already entered as playing Zerg at Blizzcon before 1.1.2 came out and it was a shock that it came out when it did as we were all expecting 1.1.2 in November
This is amazing news. I think it fits him better anyway, so I just consider him a zerg that was frustrated (i.e Dimaga, Fruitdealer) and switched; but he has returned! Go go TLO!
On October 24 2010 11:03 Tachion wrote: Switching to Zerg is a pretty wild change in just basic game play from Terran since they're so much more passive. Aggression seemed to be something that suited TLO more from my point of view. It'd be really cool if someone could get an interview with TLO about this decision and his reasons behind it and how the different play styles of the races will effect him and which he favors more.
Fruitdealer is rather aggressive after lair tech, especially in ZvT. His baneling bombs are just relentless. I expect very entertaining zerg play from TLO. Not everyone has to play like Idra to be successful at Zerg =P
TLO was Random until Bliz buffed Terran to ridiculous levels. Since he had to choose a race for GSL it would have been stupid to not pick Terran. It's premature to say Zerg is stronger than Terran now. He was able to do creative and hilarious stuff with Terran in placement matches but you can't do that kind of stuff in tournaments. In a tournament setting Zerg will better suit his creativity.
Mmmmm, juicy. Can't wait to watch his take on Zerg.
Still, it's kinda disappointing that he spent all that time practicing Terran when he could have been practicing Zerg. It's gonna put him behind other players who devoted their full time to Zerg. Hopefully he'll catch up fast, and with his skill level, I'd say that's a real possibility.
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Didn't he say the same thing about terran when he started to main terran?
On October 24 2010 11:03 Tachion wrote: Switching to Zerg is a pretty wild change in just basic game play from Terran since they're so much more passive. Aggression seemed to be something that suited TLO more from my point of view. It'd be really cool if someone could get an interview with TLO about this decision and his reasons behind it and how the different play styles of the races will effect him and which he favors more.
It doesn't seem like you have seen TLO play zerg.
I certainly have :p he was a crazy aggressive zerg back in the beta, but play has evolved quite a bit since then. Early aggression has always been more costly for zerg's as well due to the larva system, and the risk is much greater if it doesn't work. Maybe TLO will just play passive until midgame and then go crazy with drops and burrowed units and infestors etc. but those early pushes he very often used as Terran are gone.
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Didn't he say the same thing about terran when he started to main terran?
Yes, and read why he switched. Blizzard completely shut down T early game. He liked the aggression/harass which is no longer possible, thus T no longer fits his play style.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
I feel the same way. I guess whatever wins you games.
Much respect for those players who stuck with zerg and owned prepatch.
Again, this was not the way it was intended to appear.
He was already entered as playing Zerg at Blizzcon before 1.1.2 came out and it was a shock that it came out when it did as we were all expecting 1.1.2 in November
I don't mean to offend or anything. Was just basing it off your quote here.
On October 24 2010 01:55 Heosat wrote: I think you nailed it on the head well.
Dario has always felt that Zerg suited his play style the best and now that the early game options in Terran have been restricted he decided it was a suitable time to change. Expect more infestors, ultralisks and counter-attacking zerglings in the near future.
People are thinking "Oh now that Zerg is imba, TLO is switching to Zerg." That is not the case. He was experimenting with Zerg before hand, pregistered as Zerg, and then the patch came out. IMO TLO did it at just the right time, as Zerg is starting to become viable. By viable I mean, two people of equal skill at the top level, one is T, one is Z, and there's an equal chance of either of them winning. It used to be a T steamroll with huge early game imbalances. It's starting to equal out, but its not quite there yet.
Nevertheless, I hope to see more creative Zerg play from my favorite player!
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Didn't he say the same thing about terran when he started to main terran?
Terran as a race has changed a lot. Terran used to be defined by early aggression, since they need to do damage or else they will fall behind in macro against Protoss and Zerg.
Now that most early aggression has been nullified by the new patches, Terran's options in the early game have significantly been limited, and the diversity of options and ability to innovate was probably what TLO enjoyed as Terran. Blizzard should have made early aggression more costly, so that Terran's macro will be punished significantly from early aggression like it was in Brood War (you had to do damage in Brood War through early rushes or else you fall massively behind because of no mules) rather than just getting rid of it altogether.
Anyways, still not sure about this move, but I wish TLO the best of luck. It would rock to see TLO kick ass as Zerg.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
not dissing him in anyway, i actually really liked how he played zerg, i kind of hope he sticks with it this time.
That's the way he should play. When he was random, he found a high percentage of losses, so he race-picked Terran and Zerg. When he started losing more with Zerg, he focused on Terran, which he had for a while stated that he would choose if he had to choose one. Now he finds himself losing more with Terran so he switches to Zerg which he presumably has a higher win rate with. That's what all players SHOULD do, especially sponsored players/teams.
On October 24 2010 02:18 HollowLord wrote: Well I don't think we'll ever see him switch to Protoss, he seems to really hate playing as toss so he might flipflop between zerg and terran.
GSL In-Game Regulations: you must play with the race you registered with (Terran, Protoss, Zerg, Random).
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
not dissing him in anyway, i actually really liked how he played zerg, i kind of hope he sticks with it this time.
Well, he did random for a long time before sticking with Terran. I guess its just the advantage of playing random. He can do those things because of his solid understanding of all 3 races.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
I feel the same way. I guess whatever wins you games.
Much respect for those players who stuck with zerg and owned prepatch.
Again, this was not the way it was intended to appear.
He was already entered as playing Zerg at Blizzcon before 1.1.2 came out and it was a shock that it came out when it did as we were all expecting 1.1.2 in November
I don't mean to offend or anything. Was just basing it off your quote here.
On October 24 2010 01:55 Heosat wrote: I think you nailed it on the head well.
Dario has always felt that Zerg suited his play style the best and now that the early game options in Terran have been restricted he decided it was a suitable time to change. Expect more infestors, ultralisks and counter-attacking zerglings in the near future.
I misstated what I intended there. He was planning to switch before 1.1.2 but it forced his hand when it arrived and negated his early game Terran.
I do believe he was going to race pick at Blizzcon but changed his mind entirely once 1.1.2 came out.
On October 24 2010 02:22 MetalSlug wrote: I dont care waht race he plays aslong as he keeps entertaining us with inovative builds.
This, haha. It's sad to see another foreigner Terran leaving the field though, I hope more of them will fill his shoes in the upcoming seasons. (Looking at you, Select).
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
I feel the same way. I guess whatever wins you games.
Much respect for those players who stuck with zerg and owned prepatch.
Again, this was not the way it was intended to appear.
He was already entered as playing Zerg at Blizzcon before 1.1.2 came out and it was a shock that it came out when it did as we were all expecting 1.1.2 in November
I don't mean to offend or anything. Was just basing it off your quote here.
On October 24 2010 01:55 Heosat wrote: I think you nailed it on the head well.
Dario has always felt that Zerg suited his play style the best and now that the early game options in Terran have been restricted he decided it was a suitable time to change. Expect more infestors, ultralisks and counter-attacking zerglings in the near future.
I misstated what I intended there. He was planning to switch before 1.1.2 but it forced his hand when it arrived and negated his early game Terran.
I do believe he was going to race pick at Blizzcon but changed his mind entirely once 1.1.2 came out.
why not just say this.
TLO has always wanted to play zerg. TLO HAS DECIDED he wants to play zerg at blizzcon (so hes on the verge of switching to zerg) Patch comes out TLO says okay its time, *switch*
This is fine I suppose but I hope this isn't a trend where he just FOTM's everytime a race changes.
I do enjoy his zerg play tho.
Oh and don't give me the whole "he always thought Zerg was best for his playstyle." If that was the case he should of played zerg like everyone else who stuck with it.
Again, obviously he is free to do anything, but don't try to defend it with "well he was going to eventually anyway."
Ultimately though, I hope he is very successful as zerg. He will now always be under the radar of Idra, and maybe even Dimaga, whereas as terran he was on top.
You can for sure say though that TLO left his impact on the terran world... he made nukes a viable strat in positioning wars.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
I feel the same way. I guess whatever wins you games.
Much respect for those players who stuck with zerg and owned prepatch.
I don't think this is quite fair as the reason people loved TLO so much was not only that he came up with creative strats and won, but that he also played random. Unfortunately his Protoss was hindering his play and GSL is a little more strict on switching around. But I'm all for TLO mixing it up. It would be awesome if he could still go random.
I think enough people have come in to disprove the notion of TLO doing a full switch. But, let's be clear: this is not like MorroW. MorroW was starting and TLO was continuing. Considering that TLO has done Random --> Terran/Zerg --> Terran --> Zerg this is not some patch related thing. Never mind the speculation with MorroW being in school and race switching to cover up his lack of practice (not my thought, it was a recent SotG with Artosis and IdrA on it). Now that I've done so many italics . . .
I'm really disappointed. TLO has been my favorite player and SC2 figure aside from Day[9], so I'm pretty upset. That said, he's an awesome guy and I know I'll still love watching his games (his Zerg ones are sweet, too). Besides, BoxeR has been getting me really excited about Terran, and his games against FruitDealer? Epic.
On October 24 2010 11:36 Aprikosen wrote: TLAF-Liquid will not have a single player qualify for GSL 3.
It would be quite interesting to see how GSL 3 qualifiers play out since sometimes it's just luck getting matched with great players or the mediocre ones.
I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
On October 24 2010 11:36 Aprikosen wrote: TLAF-Liquid will not have a single player qualify for GSL 3.
Well it wasn't out of the question that they wouldn't for one or two either. Doesn't really mean anything.
What it means is that the Liquid clan will not be able to compete in korea.
From what's been seen, the GSL qualifiers are a crapshoot. It's entirely random, with no seeding whatsoever, so there's no REAL way to say someone will or won't make it; it's entirely up to who they face. Additionally:
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
Eh. He's done fine playing straight-up; to me it feels more like when he tries gimmicks he fails.
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
Well good for you.
He's a better Z player than he is T, imo. I just watched his 2nd game against Sen, really cool game that he almost won.
I'm not entirely sure why he switched but the current state of Terran is one that definitely doesn't suit his playstyle. Terran right now has one real build against Z that needs to win the game early, it's boring to play. Against toss it's even more limited.
Keep in mind that he was always a Random player and his strong races were T and Z. He picked T at launch because he was sane.
YES TLO you're the man. I don't know why, but I always root for the underdog, though I don't really believe that zerg is the underdog anymore, I now root only because of fanboyism. TLO fighting ~~~~!
Why would you visit a thread to put down one of the most inspiring foreign players? I don't understand some people on this site.. I was a TLO fan in Beta when he has random, I was a fan when he picked between Terran/Zerg, I was a fan when he announced he was going to main terran, I'm still a fan now that he's announcing zerg. TLO is an amazing player and anyone who says other wise is, pardon my french, fucking moronic.
On October 24 2010 11:48 ThE.SparkZ wrote: Why would you visit a thread to put down one of the most inspiring foreign players? I don't understand some people on this site.. I was a TLO fan in Beta when he has random, I was a fan when he picked between Terran/Zerg, I was a fan when he announced he was going to main terran, I'm still a fan now that he's announcing zerg. TLO is an amazing player and anyone who says other wise is, pardon my french, fucking moronic.
Because some people can't be happy unless they shit all over everything that they don't personally like.
Yeah, he didn't get past Ro64 this GSL but he was up against a really high caliber player mere days after a giant nerf fest to half his build orders.
If he'd played against the kind of scrub most "higher level" players were put up against, he'd have gotten just as far as Idra has so far.
I think TLO is a fun zerg to watch and hoped that he would have switched sooner. Its too bad that he switches in the midst of Zerg buffs and terran nerfs but all in all Im pretty happy with his decision.
TLO's Zerg play was what made me start playing Zerg in the first place! I'm so amazingly glad he's switching to the swarm for full time. While he did have some awesome terran strategies, Zerg is definitely where he belongs
On October 24 2010 11:50 Tanatos wrote: Im gonna miss his Nuke play Come on TLO! Even Boxer was impressed by your play!
The only matchup where Terran isn't constrained to one army composition is TvT. I'm glad he's switching, mid-to-late game Zerg is a lot more versatile and will suit his play better.
There are other players who have impressive MMM drop play, I'd rather be impressed by TLO's midgame craziness, and Zerg is the race for doing that.
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
Eh. He's done fine playing straight-up; to me it feels more like when he tries gimmicks he fails.
Not trying to be a troll here or anything. I'm a big TLO fan myself. But coming to think about what was posted there i was wondering if TLO actually ever won any tournament so far. I know about what happened in the recent big ones, but what about stuff in the beta or before he went to Korea. Anyone know?
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
Eh. He's done fine playing straight-up; to me it feels more like when he tries gimmicks he fails.
Not trying to be a troll here or anything. I'm a big TLO fan myself. But coming to think about what was posted there i was wondering if TLO actually ever won any tournament so far. I know about what happened in the recent big ones, but what about stuff in the beta or before he went to Korea. Anyone know?
I'm almost positive he has won next to nothing. He did quite well in the TLI(?) in the beta, but he never won anything in the beta. Post release, I believe he won some tournament against Dimaga that I can't remember the name of.
Yeah, after going 19-57 against zerg since the patch, i think its clear zerg is the stronger race against terran. ive long suspected this and i play zerg as my offrace. I am thinking of making the same move, zerg is really strong, especially against terran.
Zerg fits my style as well, of aggressively expanding and being agressive. zerg really has alot of options, especially late game. TLO said it himself, terran is restricted to tier 1 units in the late game. while other races can get these huge, mobile units late like ultras.
good choice from TLO, im thinking of doing the same, im gonna lose some more against Z before i do it.
I'm really not sure why he doesn't fix/work on his toss and just start playing random again. He's definitely a strong player but he needs to be able to outplay opponents a lot better rather than relying so much on specific unit advantages in matchups.
haha if anything, TLO is the last person you can insult for switching to zerg, since he randomed so well for so long. i mean, if you think zerg is currently stronger, and have played enough zerg that switching won't take too long to retrain, there's nothing stopping you from switching =P
Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
On October 24 2010 02:20 Punkstar wrote: Morrow and TLO are now zergs? lol im sure that if Idra has some emotions he would be grinning like crazy now ...
lol morrow's not that good and idra has been quite vocal about it.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
thats absolutely stupid reasoning. You can't take 1 anomaly / outlier and say it's proof or racial balance. I saw Flash rape the shit out of Kal at WCG...TvP is easy right? Have you ever taken any course in school that deals with statistics in the slightest? "1 person won with an inferior race, therefore there is no racial imbalance" is grade 3 reasoning, come on. in the same GSL you speak of 2nd 3rd and 4th were all terrans who were definitely not as skilled as some of the people they left behind. Over the last few months so many crappy terran players (not to say all of them suck because thats not true, but a lot of them were) have been placing high because of the strength of their race. Race may not win you tourneys, but it sure as hell helps you place farther.
I believe TLO changed because he liked zerg's style (usually his most creative plays have been with zerg) but he definitely played terran for such a long time because of their strength
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
Or perhaps he has enough confidence that he's willing to change to an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT RACE with limited practice and then enter a tournament.
On October 24 2010 02:20 Punkstar wrote: Morrow and TLO are now zergs? lol im sure that if Idra has some emotions he would be grinning like crazy now ...
lol morrow's not that good and idra has been quite vocal about it.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
thats absolutely stupid reasoning. You can't take 1 anomaly / outlier and say it's proof or racial balance. I saw Flash rape the shit out of Kal at WCG...TvP is easy right? in the same GSL you speak of 2nd 3rd and 4th were all terrans who were definitely not as skilled as some of the people they left behind. Over the last few months so many crappy terran players (not to say all of them suck because thats not true, but a lot of them were) have been placing high because of the strength of their race
I am sure I am stupid. But then I guess you don't think TLO has Fruitdealer's potential to be an extraordinary player. Sure you can probably win a little more just to follow the race buffs. But you don't go far by doing so.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
Or perhaps he has enough confidence that he's willing to change to an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT RACE with limited practice and then enter a tournament.
I hope you are right. I'll be happy if he can go further in GSL 3 with zerg. Hell, I'll even settle if he can qualify again. Let's see.
On October 24 2010 02:20 Punkstar wrote: Morrow and TLO are now zergs? lol im sure that if Idra has some emotions he would be grinning like crazy now ...
lol morrow's not that good and idra has been quite vocal about it.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
thats absolutely stupid reasoning. You can't take 1 anomaly / outlier and say it's proof or racial balance. I saw Flash rape the shit out of Kal at WCG...TvP is easy right? in the same GSL you speak of 2nd 3rd and 4th were all terrans who were definitely not as skilled as some of the people they left behind. Over the last few months so many crappy terran players (not to say all of them suck because thats not true, but a lot of them were) have been placing high because of the strength of their race
I am sure I am stupid. But then I guess you don't think TLO has Fruitdealer's potential to be an extraordinary player. Sure you can probably win a little more just to follow the race buffs. But you don't go far by doing so.
He didn't switch to Zerg because it's suddenly the strongest race.
He switched to Zerg because it's suddenly on par with the other races, and also because Terran is really constrained in all non-mirror matchups. Some people like doing the exact same shit in every game, where the only variables are timing. Some people don't.
But it's cool that you felt you had to make a TL account just so you could bitch about TLO.
In the matches against Sen I saw him doing some wacky stuff with Tunneling Claws, so I'm looking forward to seeing him bring some creativity out in the Swarm.
On October 24 2010 13:12 Black Gun wrote: well, either way, he proved that he has chosen a less preferred race because of its strength at least once.
if zerg suits his playstyle best, then he only chose terran in the beginning because they were OP at that time.
but i still wish him gl. im just sad i wont see inspiring T play from him anymore.
completely missing the point Heosat's saying that he liked Terran for its potential for early variation, and it doesn't have that as much any more. I don't know whether it's true, but your logic is just terrible.
him switching looks bad on his ability to break through that mental block of I'm doing badly and need to rethink my strategies' relearning a race requires so much more time and commitment than looking at why you lose and tweeking the timings of your builds and overall strategy. Nice to have another zerg but I can't say TLO or Morrow will come close to impressing me to the original zergs out there, should stick to terran and keep the fan base happy.
back in the beta, all of his best and most creative play was with zerg. he single-handedly changed the zerg metagame so much throughout the beta. he was responsible for mass queens in response to fast air, was one of the first to do ling/infestor builds, he brought the ultralisk into the spotlight, and after he said "hydralisks are useless off creep", nobody ever made a hydralisk again. i would have been surprised that he picked terran if it wasn't so insanely overpowered at the time.
now that zerg is more balanced, i think he feels safe switching races. terran just wasn't the race for him. he has not been doing very well at all since release. i still <3 u though, TLO
i do feel bad for TLO after the most recent patch. blizz made early game terran so one dimensional and boring that he can no longer play the way he enjoys.
it's good to try out different races, but i don't think the game has matured enough for progamers to fully commit to terran anyway. blizzard has already announced their patch jihad on them.
He 10 pools into a really early Roach Burrow/movement build, and then moves into Infestors and Ultras. He actually got pretty well ahead of Sen, defeating a much bigger army with great fungals and micro and doing some really nice drone killing with burrowed infestors. The only problem was that he fell behind in upgrades and Sen's mass roach was so much more effective vs the Ultras thanks to the range buff. If he was still playing pre-buff Zerg he would have almost certainly won.
On October 24 2010 02:53 Cyanocyst wrote: Honestly i feel once hes practiced, TLO will be within the Top 5 Zerg players.
Fruitdealer, Sen, Idra, CheckPrime, TLO
I know it sounds crazy to rate him so high, but do you guys really think TLO's Zerg is worse than Zenio, The Wind, Slush, Dimaga, Artosis, Machine, Ret, Haypro, Ogs Cezenna, NesTea, Luffy,
Or am i just being too much of a Fan Boy?
You are a fanboy.
He definitely isn't better than Zenio/theWind/Dimaga at zerg for sure.
Wow this is unexpected but great news for me! Fruitdealer has inpired me in the practical and mechanical part of the game. Now TLO can inspire the creative part. <3
On October 24 2010 13:16 aka_star wrote: him switching looks bad on his ability to break through that mental block of I'm doing badly and need to rethink my strategies' relearning a race requires so much more time and commitment than looking at why you lose and tweeking the timings of your builds and overall strategy. Nice to have another zerg but I can't say TLO or Morrow will come close to impressing me to the original zergs out there, should stick to terran and keep the fan base happy.
TLO fans don't think of him as Terran. They think of him as Random.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
Bull. He was a random player to begin with - he's comfortable playing multiple races (less comfortable with toss, though) race-switching is DIFFICULT, it takes an exceptional player to be able to swap and not take a huge hit to their performance (E.G. look at MorroW's switch to zerg - he dropped 600 points or so on the ladder!)
When you're playing tournaments, you play to win. You don't pick race for loyalty or whatever, you pick the race that you can win with.
When Fruitdealer spoke of switching from Zerg before GSL, he was a hero, a rebel, someone who told it like it was - and it was an act which said something profoundly about the state of the Zerg balance. When TLO switches to Zerg, he's an opportunist, a profiteer, riding the success of zerg heroes like the aforementioned Fruitdealer.
AWW TLO was my Terran Hero when I first saw him playing in the TL SC2 Open that was casted by Husky. I was his fan. Him switching to Zerg brings hope down to me. Have you guys noticed it has gotten harder to beat zerg. Like I play standard and don't ever proxy. But it has gotten, a lot harder.
On October 24 2010 02:20 Punkstar wrote: Morrow and TLO are now zergs? lol im sure that if Idra has some emotions he would be grinning like crazy now ...
lol morrow's not that good and idra has been quite vocal about it.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
thats absolutely stupid reasoning. You can't take 1 anomaly / outlier and say it's proof or racial balance. I saw Flash rape the shit out of Kal at WCG...TvP is easy right? Have you ever taken any course in school that deals with statistics in the slightest? "1 person won with an inferior race, therefore there is no racial imbalance" is grade 3 reasoning, come on. in the same GSL you speak of 2nd 3rd and 4th were all terrans who were definitely not as skilled as some of the people they left behind. Over the last few months so many crappy terran players (not to say all of them suck because thats not true, but a lot of them were) have been placing high because of the strength of their race. Race may not win you tourneys, but it sure as hell helps you place farther.
I believe TLO changed because he liked zerg's style (usually his most creative plays have been with zerg) but he definitely played terran for such a long time because of their strength
He isn't saying balace doesn't matter. It certainly effects the game. But he's saying that players matter a lot MORE. If TLO wasn't good with Terran he won't be with Zerg. If Cool wasn't good with Zerg he wouldn't be with Terran and so on.
On October 24 2010 02:20 Punkstar wrote: Morrow and TLO are now zergs? lol im sure that if Idra has some emotions he would be grinning like crazy now ...
lol morrow's not that good and idra has been quite vocal about it.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
thats absolutely stupid reasoning. You can't take 1 anomaly / outlier and say it's proof or racial balance. I saw Flash rape the shit out of Kal at WCG...TvP is easy right? in the same GSL you speak of 2nd 3rd and 4th were all terrans who were definitely not as skilled as some of the people they left behind. Over the last few months so many crappy terran players (not to say all of them suck because thats not true, but a lot of them were) have been placing high because of the strength of their race
I am sure I am stupid. But then I guess you don't think TLO has Fruitdealer's potential to be an extraordinary player. Sure you can probably win a little more just to follow the race buffs. But you don't go far by doing so.
He didn't switch to Zerg because it's suddenly the strongest race.
He switched to Zerg because it's suddenly on par with the other races, and also because Terran is really constrained in all non-mirror matchups. Some people like doing the exact same shit in every game, where the only variables are timing. Some people don't.
But it's cool that you felt you had to make a TL account just so you could bitch about TLO.
If anything, he switched because Terran was suddenly the weakest, or rather the changes severely affected his play (the lack of the ability to apply early pressure, most notably.)
On October 24 2010 13:38 Beneather wrote: AWW TLO was my Terran Hero when I first saw him playing in the TL SC2 Open that was casted by Husky. I was his fan. Him switching to Zerg brings hope down to me. Have you guys noticed it has gotten harder to beat zerg. Like I play standard and don't ever proxy. But it has gotten, a lot harder.
The TL SC2 Open was casted by Day[9], iirc, the HDH was casted by Husky.
Isn't he just a random player that was forced to focus on T for the first GSL? I guess switching races is one of the last benefits of playing random. Can he race pick every match in international tournies?
On October 24 2010 02:20 Punkstar wrote: Morrow and TLO are now zergs? lol im sure that if Idra has some emotions he would be grinning like crazy now ...
lol morrow's not that good and idra has been quite vocal about it.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
thats absolutely stupid reasoning. You can't take 1 anomaly / outlier and say it's proof or racial balance. I saw Flash rape the shit out of Kal at WCG...TvP is easy right? in the same GSL you speak of 2nd 3rd and 4th were all terrans who were definitely not as skilled as some of the people they left behind. Over the last few months so many crappy terran players (not to say all of them suck because thats not true, but a lot of them were) have been placing high because of the strength of their race
I am sure I am stupid. But then I guess you don't think TLO has Fruitdealer's potential to be an extraordinary player. Sure you can probably win a little more just to follow the race buffs. But you don't go far by doing so.
He didn't switch to Zerg because it's suddenly the strongest race.
He switched to Zerg because it's suddenly on par with the other races, and also because Terran is really constrained in all non-mirror matchups. Some people like doing the exact same shit in every game, where the only variables are timing. Some people don't.
But it's cool that you felt you had to make a TL account just so you could bitch about TLO.
If anything, he switched because Terran was suddenly the weakest, or rather the changes severely affected his play (the lack of the ability to apply early pressure, most notably.)
According to what I read froim Heosat, TLO had been practicing Zerg for a month before the patch, the patch itself just accelerated the change.
On October 24 2010 02:20 Punkstar wrote: Morrow and TLO are now zergs? lol im sure that if Idra has some emotions he would be grinning like crazy now ...
lol morrow's not that good and idra has been quite vocal about it.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
thats absolutely stupid reasoning. You can't take 1 anomaly / outlier and say it's proof or racial balance. I saw Flash rape the shit out of Kal at WCG...TvP is easy right? in the same GSL you speak of 2nd 3rd and 4th were all terrans who were definitely not as skilled as some of the people they left behind. Over the last few months so many crappy terran players (not to say all of them suck because thats not true, but a lot of them were) have been placing high because of the strength of their race
I am sure I am stupid. But then I guess you don't think TLO has Fruitdealer's potential to be an extraordinary player. Sure you can probably win a little more just to follow the race buffs. But you don't go far by doing so.
He didn't switch to Zerg because it's suddenly the strongest race.
He switched to Zerg because it's suddenly on par with the other races, and also because Terran is really constrained in all non-mirror matchups. Some people like doing the exact same shit in every game, where the only variables are timing. Some people don't.
But it's cool that you felt you had to make a TL account just so you could bitch about TLO.
If anything, he switched because Terran was suddenly the weakest, or rather the changes severely affected his play (the lack of the ability to apply early pressure, most notably.)
According to what I read froim Heosat, TLO had been practicing Zerg for a month before the patch, the patch itself just accelerated the change.
Was he planning on playing Zerg at Blizzcon I wonder? Or was that a snap decision based on the patch?
link above with TLO playing zerg :D muahaha go the swarm!! gona love seeing some TLO zerg play
This is not to diss TLO but i love how all the #@$ terrans are switching races after zerg started winning after patch lol!! i bet you they were the same terrans that told all the zerg players to stop crying and learn how to play!!!
On October 24 2010 13:37 Nimic wrote: When Fruitdealer spoke of switching from Zerg before GSL, he was a hero, a rebel, someone who told it like it was - and it was an act which said something profoundly about the state of the Zerg balance. When TLO switches to Zerg, he's an opportunist, a profiteer, riding the success of zerg heroes like the aforementioned Fruitdealer.
Funny how that works, eh?
Because saying something and doing something are the same thing...
On October 24 2010 13:39 MythicalMage wrote: He isn't saying balace doesn't matter. It certainly effects the game. But he's saying that players matter a lot MORE. If TLO wasn't good with Terran he won't be with Zerg. If Cool wasn't good with Zerg he wouldn't be with Terran and so on.
The idea that only the player matters is ridiculous. What matters is the player's strengths working together with the race's strengths.
Idra would probably make a very mediocre SC2 Terran on the tournament level, Artosis's stories notwithstanding. That doesn't mean Idra's bad, it means Idra's playstyle works best with Z, and he is near-godlike at that playstyle.
TLO thrives on variation, his protoss was always poor because protoss has always been very rigid. Zerg now has variation, Terran no longer doesn't. It's always mech in TvZ and always MMM/vikings in TvP. Look at any TvP on Xel'naga Caverns, it's always the same two builds taking the same three bases that ends in a mexican standoff by the third base PF.
On October 24 2010 13:37 Nimic wrote: When Fruitdealer spoke of switching from Zerg before GSL, he was a hero, a rebel, someone who told it like it was - and it was an act which said something profoundly about the state of the Zerg balance. When TLO switches to Zerg, he's an opportunist, a profiteer, riding the success of zerg heroes like the aforementioned Fruitdealer.
Funny how that works, eh?
Because saying something and doing something are the same thing...
Still seems backwards. And then a player like Morrow switches to, at the time, the underpowered race and gets totally flamed for it. I'm surprised there hasn't been a greater reaction to last shadows race change.
On October 24 2010 13:39 MythicalMage wrote: He isn't saying balace doesn't matter. It certainly effects the game. But he's saying that players matter a lot MORE. If TLO wasn't good with Terran he won't be with Zerg. If Cool wasn't good with Zerg he wouldn't be with Terran and so on.
The idea that only the player matters is ridiculous. What matters is the player's strengths working together with the race's strengths.
Idra would probably make a very mediocre SC2 Terran on the tournament level, Artosis's stories notwithstanding. That doesn't mean Idra's bad, it means Idra's playstyle works best with Z, and he is near-godlike at that playstyle.
TLO thrives on variation, his protoss was always poor because protoss has always been very rigid. Zerg now has variation, Terran no longer doesn't. It's always mech in TvZ and always MMM/vikings in TvP. Look at any TvP on Xel'naga Caverns, it's always the same two builds taking the same three bases that ends in a mexican standoff by the third base PF.
Mech in TvZ? I dunno about that(anymore). The issue is that, in my mine, you can't do anything early game significant, and that in EVERY matchup it's all bio all the time. Occasionally tanks/vikings make an appearance, and occasionally there are banshees/ravens, but it's always over an infantry core, and that's rather limiting.
On October 24 2010 14:04 FuryX wrote: Seems he goes where eva the patch balance goes... curious to see what he thinks in a few months once protoss gets a buff ^_^
Based on past patches, plus the protoss win %s in most leagues around the world, it will be a very very very long time before protoss get a legitimate buff.
On October 24 2010 13:39 MythicalMage wrote: He isn't saying balace doesn't matter. It certainly effects the game. But he's saying that players matter a lot MORE. If TLO wasn't good with Terran he won't be with Zerg. If Cool wasn't good with Zerg he wouldn't be with Terran and so on.
The idea that only the player matters is ridiculous. What matters is the player's strengths working together with the race's strengths.
Idra would probably make a very mediocre SC2 Terran on the tournament level, Artosis's stories notwithstanding. That doesn't mean Idra's bad, it means Idra's playstyle works best with Z, and he is near-godlike at that playstyle.
TLO thrives on variation, his protoss was always poor because protoss has always been very rigid. Zerg now has variation, Terran no longer doesn't. It's always mech in TvZ and always MMM/vikings in TvP. Look at any TvP on Xel'naga Caverns, it's always the same two builds taking the same three bases that ends in a mexican standoff by the third base PF.
Mech in TvZ? I dunno about that(anymore). The issue is that, in my mine, you can't do anything early game significant, and that in EVERY matchup it's all bio all the time. Occasionally tanks/vikings make an appearance, and occasionally there are banshees/ravens, but it's always over an infantry core, and that's rather limiting.
Mech as in Thors/Tanks/Hellions. Multiple factories.
Of course there's always gonna be an infantry core, that's not the same thing as MMM. MMM is the primary army composition in bio play, in mech play it's more of a support role.
EDIT: much like there's always gonna be zlots/stalkers/sentries with any toss composition and there's always going to be lings in any zerg composition.
On October 24 2010 14:04 FuryX wrote: Seems he goes where eva the patch balance goes... curious to see what he thinks in a few months once protoss gets a buff ^_^
On October 24 2010 02:20 Carras wrote: DAMM COPY CAT, i start to not win against zerg.. he starts to not win against anybody i see idra and dealer soo IMBA.. i switch..he switches..
Would like to hear his reasoning. I know back in beta he said tvz was balanced (this was the start of where everyone was saying terran imba back when Mech was dominating). But he was still random then 2 weeks after that he picked terran and stuck with them. I am hoping he didn't switch to zerg because he thinks their "imba". Hope he comes out with his reason soon ^^
Call me crazy, but I still think of TLO as Random, since that's what he started as. So I don't have any problem with him switching to whatever race he wants, I sort of expect it to be honet.
The patch basically made Z very easy to secure that expansion. To beat it, you have to do the same build.... as a terran which is very difficult or apply early pressure. Since early pressure was nerfed, Zerg can easily take that expansion, have a defence ready for it. Sad as it sounds basically the whole ZvT game depends on wherever you stop that early expansion or not because if you don't you could have mutas harassing your base or you'll just easily get outmacroed. Don't know what they were thinking with this patch probably making terran have to work for early game pressure and make the zerg scared to ever expand again.
I'm currently still playing terran and adjusting to see if i can beat Z in ZvT. I've won a few games but no success for one BO to stop the Zerg atm. XD.
They got rid of almost all sorts of harassment options for terran the past few patches. It's no mystery why TLO, a player based on creativity and harassment-style play, is going to switch when they've gotten rid of a bunch of those options for his race.
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Well to be fair, his "creative" play will only get him so far with zerg. You NEED to have strong macro mechanics to back up that "creativity" and TLO's macro is well...decent at best.
Don't get me wrong. I like TLO style of play but in professional league, I agree with Lucid90 to some degree.
On October 24 2010 14:45 Ownos wrote: Awesome! I always loved his Z play. He's got quite a bit of catching up to do though in terms of practice. Didn't seem to do too well at Blizzcon. T_T
On October 24 2010 14:45 bendez wrote: Well to be fair, his "creative" play will only get him so far with zerg. You NEED to have strong macro mechanics to back up that "creativity" and TLO's macro is well...decent at best.
Don't get me wrong. I like TLO style of play but in professional league, I agree with Lucid90 to some degree.
His macro is fine. Nearly all the big losses I've seen lately have come from simple scouting mistakes. It just seems like nerves.
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Well to be fair, his "creative" play will only get him so far with zerg. You NEED to have strong macro mechanics to back up that "creativity" and TLO's macro is well...decent at best.
Don't get me wrong. I like TLO style of play but in professional league, I agree with Lucid90 to some degree.
I think he thoroughly showed that in GSL1, and to a lesser extent GSL2.
I am a bit sad, because my decision to play Terran was somewhat based on TLO, and his style. But it makes sense, now that Terran has no harass options, nor any possibility of rushing at all.
On October 24 2010 14:33 Grond wrote: This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Doesn't take an astronaut to figure out TLO favors cheesy wins over drawn-out games. Aside from fast rushes and the roaches, zerg play is mainly unchanged from what is was vs terran; It's still a pain in the @#% to defend a fast marine+tank push, especially if you went FE.
People who were bad with zerg before the patch will still suck hard with zerg now. The roach range will help a little but in the long run ? Nah.
Aside from that, GREAT... We'll get EVEN MORE "rerolled terrans" who will play zerg the same way all of these failed players do in zvz : 1 base spam 30 roaches a-move, something that basically forces the opponent to do the same... It's even more retarded than the old tank/viking TvTs and that's quite an achievement !
On October 24 2010 14:33 Grond wrote: This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Doesn't take an astronaut to figure out TLO favors cheesy wins over drawn-out games. Aside from fast rushes and the roaches, zerg play is mainly unchanged from what is was vs terran; It's still a pain in the @#% to defend a fast marine+tank push, especially if you went FE.
People who were bad with zerg before the patch will still suck hard with zerg now. The roach range will help a little but in the long run ? Nah.
Aside from that, GREAT... We'll get EVEN MORE "rerolled terrans" who will play zerg the same way all of these failed players do in zvz : 1 base spam 30 roaches a-move, something that basically forces the opponent to do the same...
Watch his GSL games and tell me he favors "cheesy wins".
People who were bad with zerg before the patch will still suck hard with zerg now. The roach range will help a little but in the long run ? Nah. [/QUOTE]
Uhhh, TLO's zerg was better than his terran in beta and before he switched to terran full-time.
On October 24 2010 14:33 Grond wrote: This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Doesn't take an astronaut to figure out TLO favors cheesy wins over drawn-out games. Aside from fast rushes and the roaches, zerg play is mainly unchanged from what is was vs terran; It's still a pain in the @#% to defend a fast marine+tank push, especially if you went FE.
People who were bad with zerg before the patch will still suck hard with zerg now. The roach range will help a little but in the long run ? Nah.
Aside from that, GREAT... We'll get EVEN MORE "rerolled terrans" who will play zerg the same way all of these failed players do in zvz : 1 base spam 30 roaches a-move, something that basically forces the opponent to do the same...
Watch his GSL games and tell me he favors "cheesy wins".
You are referring to the series where he Thor rushed and followed it up with cloaked banshees?
On October 24 2010 14:33 Grond wrote: This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Doesn't take an astronaut to figure out TLO favors cheesy wins over drawn-out games. Aside from fast rushes and the roaches, zerg play is mainly unchanged from what is was vs terran; It's still a pain in the @#% to defend a fast marine+tank push, especially if you went FE.
People who were bad with zerg before the patch will still suck hard with zerg now. The roach range will help a little but in the long run ? Nah.
Aside from that, GREAT... We'll get EVEN MORE "rerolled terrans" who will play zerg the same way all of these failed players do in zvz : 1 base spam 30 roaches a-move, something that basically forces the opponent to do the same... It's even more retarded than the old tank/viking TvTs and that's quite an achievement !
Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about. He was never a Terran main race before GSL. He was a Random whose strong races were T and Z.
And to call TLO a cheesy player is retarded. He's not some rush-oriented one baser, jesus. The games that made him famous were all late-game macro games where he won with incredibly entertaining and creative strategies.
It's like the only game you ever saw was the GSL2 thor push on Steppes.
On October 24 2010 14:33 Grond wrote: This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Doesn't take an astronaut to figure out TLO favors cheesy wins over drawn-out games. Aside from fast rushes and the roaches, zerg play is mainly unchanged from what is was vs terran; It's still a pain in the @#% to defend a fast marine+tank push, especially if you went FE.
People who were bad with zerg before the patch will still suck hard with zerg now. The roach range will help a little but in the long run ? Nah.
Aside from that, GREAT... We'll get EVEN MORE "rerolled terrans" who will play zerg the same way all of these failed players do in zvz : 1 base spam 30 roaches a-move, something that basically forces the opponent to do the same...
Watch his GSL games and tell me he favors "cheesy wins".
You are referring to the series where he Thor rushed and followed it up with cloaked banshees?
On October 24 2010 14:33 Grond wrote: This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Doesn't take an astronaut to figure out TLO favors cheesy wins over drawn-out games. Aside from fast rushes and the roaches, zerg play is mainly unchanged from what is was vs terran; It's still a pain in the @#% to defend a fast marine+tank push, especially if you went FE.
People who were bad with zerg before the patch will still suck hard with zerg now. The roach range will help a little but in the long run ? Nah.
Aside from that, GREAT... We'll get EVEN MORE "rerolled terrans" who will play zerg the same way all of these failed players do in zvz : 1 base spam 30 roaches a-move, something that basically forces the opponent to do the same...
Watch his GSL games and tell me he favors "cheesy wins".
You are referring to the series where he Thor rushed and followed it up with cloaked banshees?
Obviously one game in a Bo3 is indicative of his style. Might as well call FruitDealer a cheesy onebaser for six pooling at the GSL1.
On October 24 2010 14:33 Grond wrote: This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Doesn't take an astronaut to figure out TLO favors cheesy wins over drawn-out games. Aside from fast rushes and the roaches, zerg play is mainly unchanged from what is was vs terran; It's still a pain in the @#% to defend a fast marine+tank push, especially if you went FE.
People who were bad with zerg before the patch will still suck hard with zerg now. The roach range will help a little but in the long run ? Nah.
Aside from that, GREAT... We'll get EVEN MORE "rerolled terrans" who will play zerg the same way all of these failed players do in zvz : 1 base spam 30 roaches a-move, something that basically forces the opponent to do the same...
Watch his GSL games and tell me he favors "cheesy wins".
TLO is definitely a macro player. So much so that Hypercheese saw fit to end the game early in the subsequent games, as all players who can't keep up macro-wise do.
On October 24 2010 14:34 StarSense wrote: From: Liquid`Nazgul [ 13440 posts | Profile | Buddy ] Subject: Re: your topic Date: 10/24/10 12:35 yes and mlg dallas
----------------------------------------- Original Message From StarSense: Will he be switching in time for GSL3?
OMFG OMFG OMFG YAY
Pretty sure it was stated that "TL would be coming in full force to mlg dallas" was already stated in maybe the SoTG podcast or some interview, I'm expecting Nony, Huk, Ret, Haypro, Jinro, TLO all to go.
Uhhh, TLO's zerg was better than his terran in beta and before he switched to terran full-time.
Hey I never said HE sucked with Z, I was talking about "the general populace". Still I believe going full time terran was a balance oriented "freefrag decision". If you know how to play both races and forced to take a choice when ladder/points REALLY matter, pick the currently overpowered one.
Personally I think it's kind of a crass way of apprehending gaming but hey to each his own; As much as I dislike IdrA for instance you gotta give him points for sticking with zerg instead of taking the easy way and riding the imba train.
TLO's zvz in the blizzcon tourny was reaalllyyy unorthodox. It was pretty entertaining to watch TLO fend of 40 roaches from Sen with 10 roaches 5 infestors + a few spine crawlers of his own, but his zvz mirrors, while against amazing zergs, seemed rather inconsistent.
Mirror matches are probably the hardest matchups in the game to get timings down for, since you're both often doing the same thing it comes down to tiny decisions and timings that make a much bigger impact than in other matchups. It's hard to judge the strength of his Zerg play so far from just those games, so here's to hoping that his other matchups are stronger and he gets those zvz builds and timings down
Uhhh, TLO's zerg was better than his terran in beta and before he switched to terran full-time.
Hey I never said HE sucked with Z, I was talking about "the general populace". Still I believe going full time terran was a balance oriented "freefrag decision". If you know how to play both races and forced to take a choice when ladder/points REALLY matter, pick the currently overpowered one.
Personally I think it's kind of a crass way of apprehending gaming but hey to each his own; As much as I dislike IdrA for instance you gotta give him points for sticking with zerg instead of taking the easy way and riding the imba train.
Well I don't think him switching full time was a move based on balance, just as I don't think him not playing Protoss later on was a decision based on balance. He just picks what he does best with at the time, regardless of anything else.
Baah good for TLO. I guess I'll just look up to Boxer's games more. I've always enjoyed watching T being played well, they were too strong before (idk now, tbh I'm not good enough to pass judgement on balance) but it was interesting to see how some Ts played. ^^
I love zerg, and I love TLO, but the timing just feels like he's jumping on the bandwagon. No hard feelings, it's just weird. Best of luck to him though; I'm sure he'll do well GSL season 3.
On October 24 2010 15:12 Leeoku wrote: naybe cuz he thinks z is more op than t now
Can you legitimately blame him? He is a sponsored progamer. His duty, to his sponsors if not himself, is to do whatever it takes to get him the most success.
On October 24 2010 15:12 crimsonsentinel wrote: I love zerg, and I love TLO, but the timing just feels like he's jumping on the bandwagon. No hard feelings, it's just weird. Best of luck to him though; I'm sure he'll do well GSL season 3.
I think its half bandwagon, half going home. Remember, when he stopped playing random he said "I play Z and T" but he always played T because he wanted to be competitive. Now that Z is solid, he can play something he likes and be competitive.
Edit: Also, I plan to be a creepy fanboy and stalk him in Dallas
So many misunderstood posts. Do you guys actually read the whole thread before posting?
I've always been a huge fan of TLO's playstyle, whether you qualify it as experiments or risky, I find it entertaining and that is what keeps me up at night, hoping to get a glimpse of his games.
So whatever the reason he's switching race, I'll support it nonetheless.
Plus, the games he did lose in GSL weren't that bad (errors that can be easily corrected). Take Loner for example, the first game he played in GSL, he lost badly to a 4 Gate on Scrap Station. We all thought he was done for the tournament, and now he might be a favorite.
Personally, I think it's beneficial to follow this trend of switching to said op race after a significant patch.
Of course, if all progamers follow suite, balance issues will arise.
But from a casual gamer's perspective, this encourages me to try other races, increasing my overall knowledge of all the races. But most of all, it helps me adapt. Considering that a few, if not most standard plays won't work in the future (sc2 patches seem to be frequent), the best players will be the ones who can adapt the quickest. And I think by interacting with various components that go with all the races will prove to be productive.
I don't know to feel about this. It's always great to see new Zerg talent, but TLO is famous because of his innovative play and entertaining techniques. Thus, Terran was great for him because he could pull off crazy stunts and show off. Zerg on the other hand seems to be a more "calm," collected race with a heavy emphasis on macro. And I don't know about you, but "innovative 16hatch 15pool" (other whatever crazy things he'll do) doesn't exactly invoke much excitement.
i think for a creative mind like TLO's, Terra doesnt really offer enough variability in the mid-late game. We start to see that there are only very few viable builds nowadays. Against good players which have tuned their build to survive the first 7-10 aggressive terra-minutes its really hard to play with the humans at this stage of the game. Taken that a lot of the early game variability was taken out, looks like terrans will have a hard time ahead of them.
... and now they lose their strategy overmind... oh noes!!
On October 24 2010 15:56 .Aar wrote: And I don't know about you, but "innovative 16hatch 15pool" (other whatever crazy things he'll do) doesn't exactly invoke much excitement.
What are you talking about? These retarded speculations about him playing T because it was easier. The recent patches have made Terran a lot more limited in the mid and late game. Terran just isn't the same anymore. I honestly hated going mass bio, and now the patches are forcing me to mass up bio. TLO, if you remember, used to always go mech, and rarely massed up marauders as well. But now Terran has to use MMM every time because everything counters mech.
For all the SC1 Terran fans, honestly.. aren't you disappointed that T just isn't the same. I would give up the marauder for better mech play any day.
If, as stated in the quote in the OP, he's switching because he always felt he was a zerg player, then he is clearly switching to zerg because of the patch changes. It's not like some mystical force was making him play terran before!
No need to criticize his decision, though. More power to him, and I hope he does well. However, there's no need to get defensive about it. THAT only creates something for people to criticize.
Play to win. If that means switching races then great ... if you can switch and still be successful with winning then you def have skill. Take advantage of the situation give to you by the patches.
On October 24 2010 15:56 .Aar wrote: And I don't know about you, but "innovative 16hatch 15pool" (other whatever crazy things he'll do) doesn't exactly invoke much excitement.
How's that innovative in the first place ?
I think he was being sarcastic, meaning that zerg is harder to innovate with. But TLO is a very creative player, so I am sure we will see something =)
On October 24 2010 16:23 shynee wrote: What are you talking about? These retarded speculations about him playing T because it was easier. The recent patches have made Terran a lot more limited in the mid and late game. Terran just isn't the same anymore. I honestly hated going mass bio, and now the patches are forcing me to mass up bio. TLO, if you remember, used to always go mech, and rarely massed up marauders as well. But now Terran has to use MMM every time because everything counters mech.
For all the SC1 Terran fans, honestly.. aren't you disappointed that T just isn't the same. I would give up the marauder for better mech play any day.
Err not quite, I played sc1 quite a bit and i always remember trembling in fear behind my bunker after protoss stole my gas, desperately repairing until i got my siege tank.
Really don´t like this move from him but it seems like you have to do whatever it takes to win. Still hoping he wil do fine but i hope this is his last switch.
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Is this the same Blizzcon I watched? I saw the Emperor play amazing and yet get completely crushed.
On October 24 2010 15:29 Ludwigvan wrote: so he already played a lot of Zerg before GSL 2? Or did he only train his Terran then?
He has been practicing solidly for 2 weeks and been playing 3-4 games a day for over 2 months. Here is a game played early September:
We just spent over an hour de-constructing his games and discussing new strategies to try in training. Needless to say, the ZvZ at Blizzcon is simply a taste of what's to come.
I just wanna know why TLO feels that zerg suits hist style more than terran? If TLO is known for one thing it is his creativity and crazy builds and unit mixes. Zerg is quite boring to play (I say this as a zerg player). There are only really a handful of viable openings and unit mixes for zerg players.
P.S. I personally loved it when zerg was considered UP prior to the patch and the GSL1 because on ladder I would face nothing but T's and P's but now it's all Zzzzzzzz.
^Zerg is quite boring in the early game (hopefully TLO can find a way to add some of his flair), but it's one of the most flexible races in the end games. Insta-tech switches are crazy for Zerg. I'm excited to see what TLO can offer.
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Is this the same Blizzcon I watched? I saw the Emperor play amazing and yet get completely crushed.
BoxeR is not playing to the best of his ability right now. Instead the matchups that were more balanced from the tournament were Sen vs. Loner and White-ra vs. Dimaga. In both cases the matches were quite one-sided.
I honestly don't believe Zerg is remotely overpowered, especially after watching the pros play over the last few days.
On October 24 2010 16:55 Warrior Madness wrote: I just wanna know why TLO feels that zerg suits hist style more than terran? If TLO is known for one thing it is his creativity and crazy builds and unit mixes. Zerg is quite boring to play (I say this as a zerg player). There are only really a handful of viable openings and unit mixes for zerg players.
P.S. I personally loved it when zerg was considered UP prior to the patch and the GSL1 because on ladder I would face nothing but T's and P's but now it's all Zzzzzzzz.
Of all the races I still think we have the most to learn about Zerg. Currently there are countless strategies that Dario has invented that need testing.
On October 24 2010 17:13 Scoop wrote: At least Morrow announced he was switching before the patch.
I wonder if Hashe has switched back to Zerg?
TLO played random in the beginning, so I see no problem with this. Anyways, Terran is completely different than it was before.
Terran early pressure has been nullified, which has greatly decreased the variety of opening builds TLO can use. In addition, Mech has been nerfed through the siege tank patch, and the roach range increase (hellions can't do shit against them now), so Terran has devolved into MMM timing pushes and drops, which was never part of TLO's style, especially since he hates the Marauder. I really think that Zerg has the potential to match TLO's style than Terran does now.
Not sure its good choice from TLO. If you dont stick with one race you will never be the master, but since the game has just come out he can do that I guess. But later on, if TLO continue to switch to whatever race are stronger in a particular patch, he will not be successful.
On October 24 2010 02:18 HollowLord wrote: Well I don't think we'll ever see him switch to Protoss, he seems to really hate playing as toss so he might flipflop between zerg and terran.
GSL In-Game Regulations: you must play with the race you registered with (Terran, Protoss, Zerg, Random).
On October 24 2010 14:33 Grond wrote: This sounds like a person who's only knowledge of TLO's play is from the TLOwnage video. He showed exceptional creativity as Random all throughout the Beta. I guess you think Battle of the Timing Attacks is the epitome of strategy. I don't comprehend how you label creative play as stupid shit.
Doesn't take an astronaut to figure out TLO favors cheesy wins over drawn-out games. Aside from fast rushes and the roaches, zerg play is mainly unchanged from what is was vs terran; It's still a pain in the @#% to defend a fast marine+tank push, especially if you went FE.
People who were bad with zerg before the patch will still suck hard with zerg now. The roach range will help a little but in the long run ? Nah.
Aside from that, GREAT... We'll get EVEN MORE "rerolled terrans" who will play zerg the same way all of these failed players do in zvz : 1 base spam 30 roaches a-move, something that basically forces the opponent to do the same...
Watch his GSL games and tell me he favors "cheesy wins".
TLO is definitely a macro player. So much so that Hypercheese saw fit to end the game early in the subsequent games, as all players who can't keep up macro-wise do.
Did you watch the same matches from the GSL2 as I did? He lost the macro game in game 1, then went for a strong one-base push in game 2. In game 3 he rushed for cloaked banshees, and when the four warpgate push came he had about 5 marines and a banshee to defend his base. Granted, his opponent was Sangho, and I'll continue to root for TLO in every game he plays, but don't kid yourself into thinking he's a really solid macro player. TLO is known, and famous, for his creative builds that stretch what is known about a race at the time he is playing, not his solid macro. That title is reserved for Idra.
On October 24 2010 17:34 Caphe wrote: Not sure its good choice from TLO. If you dont stick with one race you will never be the master, but since the game has just come out he can do that I guess. But later on, if TLO continue to switch to whatever race are stronger in a particular patch, he will not be successful.
On October 24 2010 15:56 .Aar wrote: And I don't know about you, but "innovative 16hatch 15pool" (other whatever crazy things he'll do) doesn't exactly invoke much excitement.
How's that innovative in the first place ?
I think he was being sarcastic, meaning that zerg is harder to innovate with. But TLO is a very creative player, so I am sure we will see something =)
On October 24 2010 16:23 shynee wrote: What are you talking about? These retarded speculations about him playing T because it was easier. The recent patches have made Terran a lot more limited in the mid and late game. Terran just isn't the same anymore. I honestly hated going mass bio, and now the patches are forcing me to mass up bio. TLO, if you remember, used to always go mech, and rarely massed up marauders as well. But now Terran has to use MMM every time because everything counters mech.
For all the SC1 Terran fans, honestly.. aren't you disappointed that T just isn't the same. I would give up the marauder for better mech play any day.
Err not quite, I played sc1 quite a bit and i always remember trembling in fear behind my bunker after protoss stole my gas, desperately repairing until i got my siege tank.
Read my post again carefully.. what you just said backs up my point. You waited for mech play when you played Toss. Terran in SC2 can't wait for mech, otherwise they are going to be behind. Anyways.. nevermind.
On October 24 2010 17:34 Caphe wrote: Not sure its good choice from TLO. If you dont stick with one race you will never be the master, but since the game has just come out he can do that I guess. But later on, if TLO continue to switch to whatever race are stronger in a particular patch, he will not be successful.
He wont be race switching anymore.
someone get a ss of this because this is HUGE!!! I loved TLO's play with nukes and macro. I can't believe i am going to miss nukes and see zerg macro. Will Dario be an IdrA type of zerg who goes mutas and roaches or a teched up one
On October 24 2010 17:34 Caphe wrote: Not sure its good choice from TLO. If you dont stick with one race you will never be the master, but since the game has just come out he can do that I guess. But later on, if TLO continue to switch to whatever race are stronger in a particular patch, he will not be successful.
He wont be race switching anymore.
As much as I appreciate you sharing what is going on with TLO, It would be even cooler if you or someone you know could conduct a short interview so we could hear it all in his own words :D
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Is this the same Blizzcon I watched? I saw the Emperor play amazing and yet get completely crushed.
BoxeR is not playing to the best of his ability right now. Instead the matchups that were more balanced from the tournament were Sen vs. Loner and White-ra vs. Dimaga. In both cases the matches were quite one-sided.
I honestly don't believe Zerg is remotely overpowered, especially after watching the pros play over the last few days.
Boxer played perfect. He just can't gain map control because Roaches are too powerful, not to mention the Reaper nerf which makes Roaches that much stronger.
After forcing Fruitdealer to cancel the natural, Boxer even scouted the gold expo early but couldn't do anything about it because his army is weak compared to Roaches.
I think the top 4 in the GSL end up as Z, Z, Z, Z, and Blizzard will be forced to use the nerf hammer once again.
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Is this the same Blizzcon I watched? I saw the Emperor play amazing and yet get completely crushed.
BoxeR is not playing to the best of his ability right now. Instead the matchups that were more balanced from the tournament were Sen vs. Loner and White-ra vs. Dimaga. In both cases the matches were quite one-sided.
I honestly don't believe Zerg is remotely overpowered, especially after watching the pros play over the last few days.
Boxer played perfect. He just can't gain map control because Roaches are too powerful, not to mention the Reaper nerf which makes Roaches that much stronger.
After forcing Fruitdealer to cancel the natural, Boxer even scouted the gold expo early but couldn't do anything about it because his army is weak compared to Roaches.
I think the top 4 in the GSL end up as Z, Z, Z, Z, and Blizzard will be forced to use the nerf hammer once again.
Really boxer played perfect? Didn't realize letting your opponent take the gold as his 1st expansion after getting bunker at the Nat perfect play. Please so how come in loner vs sen loner just demolished sen? roaches too powerful? Its all he went and he got DEMOLISHED. Watch loner play thats how tvz should be played not stay on 2 base all game then cry imba because you let zerg mass expo.
Rather then cry why don't you watch top terran players play tvz correctly before saying imba eh? From what I know a zerg did not win Blizzcon! Top 3 were P, T, P. Zerg is definitely very imbalanced couldn't even make top 3. (no I am not saying zerg is UP either I think their actually fine now)
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Is this the same Blizzcon I watched? I saw the Emperor play amazing and yet get completely crushed.
BoxeR is not playing to the best of his ability right now. Instead the matchups that were more balanced from the tournament were Sen vs. Loner and White-ra vs. Dimaga. In both cases the matches were quite one-sided.
I honestly don't believe Zerg is remotely overpowered, especially after watching the pros play over the last few days.
Boxer played perfect. He just can't gain map control because Roaches are too powerful, not to mention the Reaper nerf which makes Roaches that much stronger.
After forcing Fruitdealer to cancel the natural, Boxer even scouted the gold expo early but couldn't do anything about it because his army is weak compared to Roaches.
I think the top 4 in the GSL end up as Z, Z, Z, Z, and Blizzard will be forced to use the nerf hammer once again.
just like blizzcon.right? riiiight?
people need to freakin get real and stop pulling weird OP claims out of thin air. the patch is out for a very short time, nothing proofs any imbalance or even hints at it and people are calling doomsday when infact in 90% of the situations the patch didnt affect the outcome of the game in any big way (see current "OMG XvZ" threads in strat forum.watch the reps)
also people need to stop the hate for no reason on tlo. he always played random /T/Z. he focused on one race cause he went to korea.now he focuses on his other one. not drama worthy at all.
I don't know, I really like TLO and his innovative and creative play style but he seems to lack that solid macro play that players like Idra have, and without that I don't see him taking games away from Idra for example. And I doubt switching to Zerg will change that, but I sure do wish him best of luck. Will be interesting to see how his Zerg style evolves in oGs house full of excellent terrans and only few zerg players (oGs Zenio and that's it I think?)
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Is this the same Blizzcon I watched? I saw the Emperor play amazing and yet get completely crushed.
BoxeR is not playing to the best of his ability right now. Instead the matchups that were more balanced from the tournament were Sen vs. Loner and White-ra vs. Dimaga. In both cases the matches were quite one-sided.
I honestly don't believe Zerg is remotely overpowered, especially after watching the pros play over the last few days.
Boxer played perfect. He just can't gain map control because Roaches are too powerful, not to mention the Reaper nerf which makes Roaches that much stronger.
After forcing Fruitdealer to cancel the natural, Boxer even scouted the gold expo early but couldn't do anything about it because his army is weak compared to Roaches.
I think the top 4 in the GSL end up as Z, Z, Z, Z, and Blizzard will be forced to use the nerf hammer once again.
Really boxer played perfect? Didn't realize letting your opponent take the gold as his 1st expansion after getting bunker at the Nat perfect play. Please so how come in loner vs sen loner just demolished sen? roaches too powerful? Its all he went and he got DEMOLISHED. Watch loner play thats how tvz should be played not stay on 2 base all game then cry imba because you let zerg mass expo.
Rather then cry why don't you watch top terran players play tvz correctly before saying imba eh? From what I know a zerg did not win Blizzcon! Top 3 were P, T, P. Zerg is definitely very imbalanced couldn't even make top 3. (no I am not saying zerg is UP either I think their actually fine now)
Thank you. All this Zerg OP stuff completely blew up so fast, and it's making me sad. -.-
About TLO: I guess I'm happy we have another great player join The Swarm. I'll miss his nukes, though. Honestly, I wish he would just switch back to random. That's when TLO was the most awesome. ;D
On October 24 2010 18:04 StarcraftMan wrote:I think the top 4 in the GSL end up as Z, Z, Z, Z, and Blizzard will be forced to use the nerf hammer once again.
I think brackets A, B and D will have a Zerg winner. But I'm not so sure about C.
Nice guy, creative and innovative thinker, very entertaining to watch. However, I feel that his broad fan base is based on his personality more so than his actual gaming prowess. To date, I feel that his play has been generally inconsistent. This move back to Zerg exemplifies his personality, versatile yet inconsistent, jack of all trades, master of none. At this point I can't see him being a top sc2 pro.
damn i loved his infestor ling burrow play back in days of the beta. I certainly hope it will be as entertaining as back then. and i wish him he will do even better with zerg than with terran
no offense but TLO without a solid macro skill going zerg? terran is the race for gimmicky 'creative' play^^ i guess we will see how will he do in the next gsl.
On October 24 2010 18:25 BurningSera wrote: no offense but TLO without a solid macro skill going zerg? terran is the race for gimmicky 'creative' play^^ i guess we will see how will he do in the next gsl.
Way to come off as embarrassingly ignorant. TLO demonstrated high level zerg play during the beta. Playing zerg again won't be too difficult of a transition (he's already playing zerg and showed great infestor play). Also, "terran is the race for gimmicky creative play." That was unnecessary don't you think? Let's not be childish here.
I'm highly disappointed in TLO. I thought he chose a race and was going to stick with them. Blizzard will balance the game to the best of their ability and you should pick a race that truly suits your play-style. As for me I chose Terran and I'm never going to look back.
I played Brood War and first I was Protoss, just to learn the game. Then I switched to Zerg because I liked their concept, swarm the enemy, macro intensive and micro intensive. Then I found Terran, the perfect balance and I was happy from that day on, Terran fighting! TLO, sad to see you become infested but we don't neeed flip floppers playing our race. I can't wait to see Flash playing SC2! Slayers_Boxer and Nada fighting! Terran Lives on!!!
On October 24 2010 18:16 Flare23 wrote: Nice guy, creative and innovative thinker, very entertaining to watch. However, I feel that his broad fan base is based on his personality more so than his actual gaming prowess. To date, I feel that his play has been generally inconsistent. This move back to Zerg exemplifies his personality, versatile yet inconsistent, jack of all trades, master of none. At this point I can't see him being a top sc2 pro.
you make a good point but i think it's too early in the game and his career to judge whether someone will be a top pro player. we have seen his potential. I think it's a matter of practice and will power for him.
It's hilarious how some people seem to be offended on a personal level just because a player switches his race. If he wants to and it'll work well with his team mates, then why care?
As if playing T, P or Z says something about your character or your personality - some folks take this too serious. TLO switching T->Z is like David Beckham switching from Adidas to Nike soccer shoes. Game stays the same, only the tool it's played with is different now.
I enjoyed watching him play random, I enjoyed watching him play T, I'll enjoy watching him play Z.
On October 24 2010 10:49 Heosat wrote: Dario did not switch because Zerg is the flavour of the month in imbalance (and I think Blizzcon proved that). Instead he just enjoys the gameplay more and feels he can do better. All the team fully support him in his decision.
We may release replays from his Zerg practice over the last month in a future weekly.
Is this the same Blizzcon I watched? I saw the Emperor play amazing and yet get completely crushed.
BoxeR is not playing to the best of his ability right now. Instead the matchups that were more balanced from the tournament were Sen vs. Loner and White-ra vs. Dimaga. In both cases the matches were quite one-sided.
I honestly don't believe Zerg is remotely overpowered, especially after watching the pros play over the last few days.
Boxer played perfect. He just can't gain map control because Roaches are too powerful, not to mention the Reaper nerf which makes Roaches that much stronger.
After forcing Fruitdealer to cancel the natural, Boxer even scouted the gold expo early but couldn't do anything about it because his army is weak compared to Roaches.
I think the top 4 in the GSL end up as Z, Z, Z, Z, and Blizzard will be forced to use the nerf hammer once again.
Really boxer played perfect? Didn't realize letting your opponent take the gold as his 1st expansion after getting bunker at the Nat perfect play. Please so how come in loner vs sen loner just demolished sen? roaches too powerful? Its all he went and he got DEMOLISHED. Watch loner play thats how tvz should be played not stay on 2 base all game then cry imba because you let zerg mass expo.
Rather then cry why don't you watch top terran players play tvz correctly before saying imba eh? From what I know a zerg did not win Blizzcon! Top 3 were P, T, P. Zerg is definitely very imbalanced couldn't even make top 3. (no I am not saying zerg is UP either I think their actually fine now)
Thank you. All this Zerg OP stuff completely blew up so fast, and it's making me sad. -.-
About TLO: I guess I'm happy we have another great player join The Swarm. I'll miss his nukes, though. Honestly, I wish he would just switch back to random. That's when TLO was the most awesome. ;D
He probably would if it was random between zerg and terran. He just doesn't want to play protoss, that's how it has always been.
I remember having watched him play some very entertaining zerg games in the past so this is good news.
On October 24 2010 18:50 drlame wrote: Meh, I'm kind of annoyed with all the race switches going on. Next patch we will probably see him play protoss.
Doubt it, considering one of the reasons him going from Random to Terran was because how uncomfortable was with Protoss and how unsatisfied he was with his play.
probably will backfire a lot, had a lot of problems with his terran play and switching now he probably wont reach any kind of skill anytime soon for gsl3. but whatever makes people happy
On October 24 2010 19:13 FrozenSpirit wrote: To all you "disappointed". It is no shame to switch to a possibly stronger race. A race is not a religion. Being able to switch is a feat of strength.
But being able to stick with your race through thick and thin is a greater feat of strength. :D
On October 24 2010 13:16 aka_star wrote: him switching looks bad on his ability to break through that mental block of I'm doing badly and need to rethink my strategies' relearning a race requires so much more time and commitment than looking at why you lose and tweeking the timings of your builds and overall strategy. Nice to have another zerg but I can't say TLO or Morrow will come close to impressing me to the original zergs out there, should stick to terran and keep the fan base happy.
TLO fans don't think of him as Terran. They think of him as Random.
Pretty much this. I was very disappointed when he started playing T full time. This change back to zerg should be great news to the people who appreciate his innovative play.
On October 24 2010 19:22 Red. wrote: just destroyed 6 zergs in a row on my zvz matches, what is going on? looks like a lot of people is switching races
Actually almost nobody is switching races, you can just look at statistics...
On October 24 2010 19:22 Red. wrote: just destroyed 6 zergs in a row on my zvz matches, what is going on? looks like a lot of people is switching races
Actually almost nobody is switching races, you can just look at statistics...
Sure doesn't feel that way when 75% of games are vs Zerg.
Also, what statistics? Most people have the race listed as the one they've played most. If you've only just started playing Z, you're still going to be down as P/T/R on most stats things.
Tbh I don't really see TLO having much success in sc2 from this point onwards. His cute strategies and gimmicky play worked fine in the beginning but not because it was solid, but rather because people hadn't had time to prepare against all that weird stuff. Now mechanics and standard bo's with cheese sprinkled in every now and then is what's going to win games, and TLO isn't very strong in those regards.
He isn't going to do consistently well in any tourneys if he just switches around to whatever race he feels is strongest at the time.
What it takes is practice, lots and lots of practice.
He needs someone close to him to be straight with him and tell him the weakness wasn't within the terran race for his GSL performances, but within the way he approaches the game.
Not every game is meant to have flashy plays, some you gotta grind out with clean mechanics and crisp decision making.
I'm kind of afraid that a race switch might impede his chances to play competitively for the next few months at the very least I hope I'm wrong though.
On October 24 2010 19:59 Yggdrasill wrote: I hate people like him, playing Terran because it was OP, and now that it got nerfed he changes race.
it looks like you werent around for very long. TLO was palying random for a long time, then switched to Terran & Zerg. But many tournaments, especially GSL do not allow race picking, so he sticked with Terran which was the logical choise. He still played some zerg games, and mentioned he still loves zerg, you can look it up. Maybe he got bored with T, that's my best guess, as T is boring after all. But if he feels like he has to play the strongest race, what's wrong with that, if he s able to, go for it
Being able to choose one race and succeed with it, through good and bad times, means to have achieved something. That's why we look upon aFruitDealer as a hero. If TLO changed his race because he really felt Zerg was better suited for him, then we should congratulate him for finding strength to change the race. However if he did it because of the recent patch then he is becomes nothing in the eyes of his fans. Only he know the true reason.
On October 24 2010 19:59 Yggdrasill wrote: I hate people like him, playing Terran because it was OP, and now that it got nerfed he changes race.
it looks like you werent around for very long. TLO was palying random for a long time, then switched to Terran & Zerg. But many tournaments, especially GSL do not allow race picking, so he sticked with Terran which was the logical choise. He still played some zerg games, and mentioned he still loves zerg, you can look it up. Maybe he got bored with T, that's my best guess, as T is boring after all. But if he feels like he has to play the strongest race, what's wrong with that, if he s able to, go for it
Pretty much this.
@Yggdrasill: I hate people like you, making harsh accusations without having a clue whats going on. TLO also said, that he might switch to zerg one day (pre 1.1.2).
Not surprising, anybody who is already decent Zerg would be foolish to play Terran in current balance state. Zerg gameplay is rather boring, but at least effective, unlike Terran late game (lol, Terran late game).
But maybe he could make Zerg fun for me. Hope he does well!
TLO can play wathever race he wants if you ask me. He have proven that he can play all 3 races and he can come up with creative builds with all of them. If he doesent win he put up a match that was entertaining as hell atleast. One of the best additions to the pro scene from europe.
I always liked his play and hopefully he will play toss for a while too.
Lets hope for some infestor play since thoose units are the coolest Z unit ever, and TLO seems to agree
I hope he isn't chasing buffs though, as he's missing out on the most important thing that makes the greatest great, which is practice. Every time he switches races he's pretty much in a situation where all the time perfecting his game beforehand becomes in many ways, useless. The more he switches the less relevant he'll become.
The internet is funny sometimes. People make their own interpretation, and spam here...Honestly, reading that a pro player may switch to a race because some of you guys feels that they're OP at the time, this is just dumb.
You don't pick a race because of a patch. The game will change a lot again in the near future. Maybe some don't realize that and will switch to the race that everyone QQing at the time, but pro players are not dumb as those internet trolls, please, don't insult such a nice guy as TLO.
Anyway, i should'nt feed them i guess.
I always loved zerg's TLO, i remember a game on Desert oasis, against a protoss, with a mass speedling/infestor, way before zerg users start to use infestors. It was so amazing.
As a Terran who loves watching TLO I'm dissapointed for entertainment purposes and will follow him less closely. Still, I fulled understand and support his decision in the sense that he does this professionally and needs to do waht he thinks is best for his career. Goodluck TLO.
On October 24 2010 16:55 Warrior Madness wrote: I just wanna know why TLO feels that zerg suits hist style more than terran? If TLO is known for one thing it is his creativity and crazy builds and unit mixes. Zerg is quite boring to play (I say this as a zerg player). There are only really a handful of viable openings and unit mixes for zerg players.
P.S. I personally loved it when zerg was considered UP prior to the patch and the GSL1 because on ladder I would face nothing but T's and P's but now it's all Zzzzzzzz.
Of all the races I still think we have the most to learn about Zerg. Currently there are countless strategies that Dario has invented that need testing.
a shame he had to play Zergs the entire tourney and got knocked out early but there was some pretty impressive micro and creative play that I've never seen from zergs since early beta. Getting quick lair into roach burrow before roach speed is definitely something unexpected. I think TLO has what it takes and with the tools zerg has I think he'll do pretty damn good.
On October 24 2010 20:47 Bluest wrote: As a Terran who loves watching TLO I'm dissapointed for entertainment purposes and will follow him less closely.
On October 24 2010 20:38 Super_bricklayer wrote: The internet is funny sometimes. People make their own interpretation, and spam here...Honestly, reading that a pro player may switch to a race because some of you guys feels that they're OP at the time, this is just dumb.
You don't pick a race because of a patch. The game will change a lot again in the near future. Maybe some don't realize that and will switch to the race that everyone QQing at the time, but pro players are not dumb as those internet trolls, please, don't insult such a nice guy as TLO.
Anyway, i should'nt feed them i guess.
I always loved zerg's TLO, i remember a game on Desert oasis, against a protoss, with a mass speedling/infestor, way before zerg users start to use infestors. It was so amazing.
It would be so sweet to see him play zerg now.
Amen. I'm also looking forward to how TLO will deal with a protoss who tries to slip his canon into his backside. + Show Spoiler +
On October 24 2010 20:38 Super_bricklayer wrote: The internet is funny sometimes. People make their own interpretation, and spam here...Honestly, reading that a pro player may switch to a race because some of you guys feels that they're OP at the time, this is just dumb.
You don't pick a race because of a patch. The game will change a lot again in the near future. Maybe some don't realize that and will switch to the race that everyone QQing at the time, but pro players are not dumb as those internet trolls, please, don't insult such a nice guy as TLO.
Anyway, i should'nt feed them i guess.
I always loved zerg's TLO, i remember a game on Desert oasis, against a protoss, with a mass speedling/infestor, way before zerg users start to use infestors. It was so amazing.
It would be so sweet to see him play zerg now.
Amen. I'm also looking forward to how TLO will deal with a protoss who tries to slip his canon into his backside. + Show Spoiler +
On October 24 2010 21:09 Roggay wrote: Cool news, we'll see if he can catch up fast or not with the other zergs out there. I don't think we are gonna see him in the next GSL tho.
I just hope he sticks with it.
A lot of youngsters these days get frustrated quickly and try to make drastic changes when they don't get instant results...
He hasn't gone deep in the last 2 gsls so he probably thought he needed to change something.
On October 24 2010 21:28 debasers wrote: TLO's Blizzcon performance was indeed pretty bad, but what he showed in his games was pretty impressive.
I don't think his performance was bad at all, yet you say he did well in the games he played... Reality is, he got bad luck with his match ups, all tip top zergs who have been playing Zerg since early beta. Watch his replays, he did pretty damn well considering he was just at the GSL playing Terran not less than a week ago.
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
Being passive is way easier than having to make things happen, just saying
Makes sense. He's talked a lot about switching to zerg before and played random previously of course. Trying to innovate and find new strats for Zerg is good because having watched his TvT you can tell it frustrates him. He tries to go for interesting builds and openers but is just always forced back into tank/viking in every single TvT. If not vT its just MMM all the way. Perhaps he just sees more flexibility in Zerg army composition in all matchups.
Plus it'll be nice to see less Terrans around. Not to bash the race but a bit of diversity in tournaments would be nice.
hmm interesting. I know he's not starting zerg from scratch, but wonder if he can keep up with people playing same race the whole time. His choice, not much else to say, gl to him!
It's pretty obvious he liked Zerg the most from the start but didn't want to play a race that had a really tough time winning. When you're a random player like TLO was initally, why would you play the worst race? That's just stupid. Now the game is a lot more balanced it makes sense to switch to the race he preferred in the first place anyway.
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
Being passive is way easier than having to make things happen, just saying
Try telling that to a Protoss who has to deal with constant drop harass from a Terran. Or to a zerg who has to run around fending off banshees or hellion drops. It's really stressful :|
On October 24 2010 11:41 Lucid90 wrote: I never liked TLO. Honestly I don't think he has the natural talent needed to succeed against the best in korea. I don't even think he's good enough to beat top foreigners. To me he's always been a flashy player with a big fanbase because of stupid shit like "TLOwnage" or his "creative" play, but when it comes to actual straight up matches he falls flat. I guess the reason for his switch is that now terran isn't as strong against zerg say a month ago, so makes more sense switching to zerg. To me this is still pretty stupid because IMO PvZ is still broken in high levels and zerg is by far the hardest race to play because it's mostly defensive, so he should do even worse in tournament results now.
Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings but this is just how I feel.
Being passive is way easier than having to make things happen, just saying
Try telling that to a Protoss who has to deal with constant drop harass from a Terran. Or to a zerg who has to run around fending off banshees or hellion drops. It's really stressful :|
Also being creative and losing isn't very hard at all
Thats a real shame, TLOs main strength as a player was coming up with unique builds and being aggressive from the start of the game to the end. Now that he switches to zerg he won't really get use of any those skills. I think he'll do worse with zerg because they don't allow for unique builds or being aggressive from the start of the game without taking huge risks of falling behind.
On October 24 2010 21:59 Senx wrote: Thats a real shame, TLOs main strength as a player was coming up with unique builds and being aggressive from the start of the game to the end. Now that he switches to zerg he won't really get use of any those skills. I think he'll do worse with zerg because they don't allow for unique builds or being aggressive from the start of the game without taking huge risks of falling behind.
Looks like we watched diffrent TLO terran games. 90% of time he was just going Tank viking... that wasn't creative at all.
Lets face it Zerg is the most creative race in sc2. Since you can totally change the army composition with easy that it produces the most entertaining games.
TLO ninja infestors are comming Terrans and Toss BEWARE
Welcome Back Mr.TLO. Glad to hear ur switching back to THE BEST RACE on SC2 (*Haters gonna Hate*). Looking forward to some awesome creative epic Swarm Matches @ GSL3. Liquid`TLO Fighting
On October 24 2010 20:59 Astans wrote: I always felt that there should be a random of two-race option. That way TLO could play randomly either Zerg or Terran.
Yes.
I have ALWAYS wanted a "Not X" option in RTS games. It seems like such an obvious and useful and easy to add feature. The only reason I can think of why developers don't include it is because it would make balance deficiencies more obvious.
On October 24 2010 22:41 meRz wrote: TLO switches due to Zerg being FOTM. No one cares.
Any other Player switches due to Zerg being FOTM -> Shit storm & Flame war.
Just an interesting thing to note.
Harsh comment but I agree... First TLO is like Terran suits me best. Then he comments "all zerg player whining about balance is childish" (on playxp) then gets pissed off that his race can't do 30 different opening and switches to zerg. Uhm, what?
Sorry if I'm getting this wrong, but that's what I am seeing =|
On October 24 2010 19:22 Red. wrote: just destroyed 6 zergs in a row on my zvz matches, what is going on? looks like a lot of people is switching races
Actually almost nobody is switching races, you can just look at statistics...
Which statistics are you referring to? Not that I'm refuting your statement. Just that statistics take time to filter through. SC2ranks and other such resources will not show recent changes since it counts you as whatever race you play with the most. So if you play 33% Zerg, 33% Protoss and 34% Terran, you will be classed as Terran.
It is quite likely possible there are now more players trying out Zerg on the ladders and since they have only played a handful of games, their race will not update.
No one can say for certain what motivated him to move from one race to the other any of the times he has. Turning his decisions into girly gossip with bizarre drama and hidden motives should be beneath any of us. I think TLO has earned some respect and some credibility by now not to have his decisions picked apart and phantom drama added wherever needed by joe blow forum member.
TLO, go ahead and change your race 100 times if thats what you want. I will still cheer for you and watch your replays etc.
On October 24 2010 18:36 Shockk wrote: It's hilarious how some people seem to be offended on a personal level just because a player switches his race. If he wants to and it'll work well with his team mates, then why care?
As if playing T, P or Z says something about your character or your personality - some folks take this too serious. TLO switching T->Z is like David Beckham switching from Adidas to Nike soccer shoes. Game stays the same, only the tool it's played with is different now.
I enjoyed watching him play random, I enjoyed watching him play T, I'll enjoy watching him play Z.
Words right out of my mouth, TLO is using the game for what it was intended for. Entertainment!! If you're happy, that's all that matters.
TheLittleRandom can not be forced to play a single race! His overwhelming creative mind will always make the most fun gameplay to watch, who cares race! It will be hillarious. I personally still hope for him to go random and win 2-3 GSL in a row \o/
On October 24 2010 23:07 Vanimar wrote: TheLittleRandom can not be forced to play a single race! His overwhelming creative mind will always make the most fun gameplay to watch, who cares race! It will be hillarious. I personally still hope for him to go random and win 2-3 GSL in a row \o/
On October 24 2010 02:20 optical630 wrote: "Dario has always felt that Zerg suited his play style the best "
he said this when he swapped to terran, however, i loved his zerg style in beta so gl!
No, what he said when he 'swapped'(He didn't really swap, he was playing Random originally), and he said he seemed to be a lot more effecient with terran, so he stuck with them...
I don't blame him for switching, being originally random player and performing well, he can change pretty much whenever he wants, and still do a great job, and not feel like betraying his beloved race
On October 24 2010 22:49 AyJay wrote: Harsh comment but I agree... First TLO is like Terran suits me best. Then he comments "all zerg player whining about balance is childish" (on playxp) then gets pissed off that his race can't do 30 different opening and switches to zerg. Uhm, what?
Sorry if I'm getting this wrong, but that's what I am seeing =|
You could tell when he was making the comments about zerg whining that he was kind of saying 'this is pitiful, I had a blast playing zergs and could definitely do better (results and strategy-wise) than you whining Zergs.' And now he's made it official. I'm excited.
On October 24 2010 02:20 Punkstar wrote: Morrow and TLO are now zergs? lol im sure that if Idra has some emotions he would be grinning like crazy now ...
lol morrow's not that good and idra has been quite vocal about it.
On October 24 2010 12:51 tardygamer wrote: Well race doesn't win you tournaments. Players do. Fruitdealer winning GSL is the proof. Race hopping shows at least TLO has no confidence in himself no matter how you sugar coat it.
thats absolutely stupid reasoning. You can't take 1 anomaly / outlier and say it's proof or racial balance. I saw Flash rape the shit out of Kal at WCG...TvP is easy right? Have you ever taken any course in school that deals with statistics in the slightest? "1 person won with an inferior race, therefore there is no racial imbalance" is grade 3 reasoning, come on. in the same GSL you speak of 2nd 3rd and 4th were all terrans who were definitely not as skilled as some of the people they left behind. Over the last few months so many crappy terran players (not to say all of them suck because thats not true, but a lot of them were) have been placing high because of the strength of their race. Race may not win you tourneys, but it sure as hell helps you place farther.
I believe TLO changed because he liked zerg's style (usually his most creative plays have been with zerg) but he definitely played terran for such a long time because of their strength
He isn't saying balace doesn't matter. It certainly effects the game. But he's saying that players matter a lot MORE. If TLO wasn't good with Terran he won't be with Zerg. If Cool wasn't good with Zerg he wouldn't be with Terran and so on.
Maybe not in BW but the balance of TvZ in Sc2 was so bad that yes, a lot of Terrans did coast on the strength of their race and place much further than they should have. You're going to tell me Morrow deserved to 3-1 against idra in the finals? No, reapers were way to strong at the time and there was almost no way for zerg to come ahead against a 5 rax reaper opening unless terran screwed up.
TLO is a creative player, i am glad he switches races as he keeps things interesting. I would like to see what creative things he can pull off as Protoss.
I love this. The big point for me from his latest appearance in the State of the game podcast was that he felt strongly that zerg wasnt being played right by many players. Now we all get to see what he was thinking!
tlo played some amazing zerg games in the beta. Games I always wanted to see, since he excels so much at the cerebral aspect of the game. Can't wait, but too bad he wasn't so great at Protoss since I loved those games too.
TLO has gained a lot of fans and fame because of his ability in doing various opening builds. This is easy to understand. For casual players, they started the game with very limited knowledge of RTS. They spent a lot of time figuring out a build and trying it out timidly on battle.net. They lose a lot of games on battle.net or even to the single player mode. They search the internet for a way to improve their game play. And what they found was a guy who can do different builds in every game and doing them well. What they heard was the commentators shouting at the top of their lung "OMG WHAT A SICK BUILD, TLO IS THE MOST CREATIVE PLAYER EVER!!!!" People were excited and facinated. A religion is thus formed. Any one who dares to offer any different opinion is ridiculed (if you bother to go back and read all the posts, you'll find words such as stupid, dumb, ridiculas are used against non-believers).
This is all fine only if the game is just a show. However, the game at its core is a competitive venue. At the top of the competitive circle, are players who believe in clean and solid game mechanics. They practice that to the perfection. They also believe in that the fundamental strategy of winning games is to find out what your opponent is doing and rally available resources to counter it. So, they usually open with a solid build that can counter most of the gimmicky opening their opponents can throw at them. Next, they scount their opponents and then decide how to counter based on what they have found. From the observer's perspective, solid opening can be boring if you are not that into the mind game that the top players are actually competing at. Flashy and gimmicky opening builds can be more exciting to watch. But against a top notch player, when his solid opening holds your initial attack, more often he'll counter your build and win the game at the end. If you understand and agree with what I have stated so far, then you'll have to also agree race and builds are not that important when it comes to the top level competition.
When commenting Nada's GSL game against a player who is not well known, Jason Lee said: "I thought Nada would do something fancy and crazy. But I am surprised to see that he didn't but his opponent did." This just shows how little Jason knows about RTS. The better a player is, the less likely he will gamble his game on some fancy builds. He will almost always start with the most solid and safe build he knows, trusting his own fundamentals, and beat others with a solid play. Fun to watch? Yes. Eye candies? No.
the only problem i see with this is zerg doesn't have nukes. I actually liked TLO's terran because he didn't just rely on the same old imba builds everyone else used and did creative shit.
Of course now feels like funny timing to switch to Z when Z is probably on its best patch to date. Reasoning makes sense though - if you like being active early game then reapers "taken off the game" seems pretty huge change to own gameplay.
On October 25 2010 02:08 Ouga wrote: Of course now feels like funny timing to switch to Z when Z is probably on its best patch to date. Reasoning makes sense though - if you like being active early game then reapers "taken off the game" seems pretty huge change to own gameplay.
GL with the swarm!
Not just reapers. Roach range has a major effect on hellion harass as well, and TLO was favoring a lot of that in GSL1.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
You have a warped perspective. Zerg has always been strongest. Most boring, most susceptible to cheese and most difficult to play, but they've always been the best out of the three. Recent patch only made it more obvious. Notice the difference between a classy player like TLO and someone like Dimaga, Fruitseller or Idra (no offense to any of them), when he doesn't threaten to switch -- he simply does it.
Anyway, best of luck to TLO. I don't believe he'll suddenly start beating 100% zerg users in ZvZ but we'll see.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
You have a warped perspective. Zerg has always been strongest. Most boring, most susceptible to cheese and most difficult to play, but they've always been the best out of the three. Recent patch only made it more obvious. Notice the difference between a classy player like TLO and someone like Dimaga, Fruitseller or Idra (no offense to any of them), when he doesn't threaten to switch -- he simply does it.
Anyway, best of luck to TLO. I don't believe he'll suddenly start beating 100% zerg users in ZvZ but we'll see.
Especially Sen and Dimaga, in the most unfortunate bracket ever.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
You have a warped perspective. Zerg has always been strongest.
Hmm. Tell me who's having a warped perspective again?
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
You have a warped perspective. Zerg has always been strongest. Most boring, most susceptible to cheese and most difficult to play, but they've always been the best out of the three. Recent patch only made it more obvious. Notice the difference between a classy player like TLO and someone like Dimaga, Fruitseller or Idra (no offense to any of them), when he doesn't threaten to switch -- he simply does it.
Anyway, best of luck to TLO. I don't believe he'll suddenly start beating 100% zerg users in ZvZ but we'll see.
I can't really blame him for this, ultimately his job is to play the game and win. If he feels like he can do that better with zerg than all the more power to him.
I'm happy that there was no drama involved, he just switched.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
You have a warped perspective. Zerg has always been strongest.
Hmm. Tell me who's having a warped perspective again?
Regardless, apparently TLO was practicing Zerg BEFORE the patch. He just had yet to enter any tournaments. It's not "bad" for him to switch. If anything, it's expected. If you are capable of playing better, wether it be through switching races, build order, practice, or anything else, you damn well better do that, for your sponsors, if not for yourself.
People seem to be missing the reasoning for the switch, or at least the given reason. He wanted to play as Zerg from the start but Terran were more conducive to a creative style. Now Zerg are the most conducive to his playstyle so he's gone for that. Yeah, the buff to Zerg is what has allowed him to express himself through the race, but that's not to say that he's jumped to Zerg based on strength.
Anyway, I've always felt TLO's Zerg was exciting, can't wait to see him using them again. Hopefully he does decently in GSL3.
even if a player says "i play the race that is most op atm because i want to win "... if he can handle multiple races good, and he makes his money with gaming, its okay and comprehensible imho.
ontopic : TLO Had to choose between zerg and terran for tournaments (because most of them dont allow racepicking and his pvp really sucked compared to the other MUs) and back then terran was really strong in all aspects. Now the patches seem to have cripled many t builds, so why should he keep on play around with T, as most of his Z builds still work or are even stronger than end-beta.
On October 24 2010 18:04 StarcraftMan wrote:I think the top 4 in the GSL end up as Z, Z, Z, Z, and Blizzard will be forced to use the nerf hammer once again.
I think brackets A, B and D will have a Zerg winner. But I'm not so sure about C.
I think this has less to do with Zerg being overpowered and more to do with the Zerg players in those brackets.
I'm a little disappointed as a Terran player TBH. His zerg play is just as unique and fun to watch as his Terran play, but him switching to Zerg seems like he's going "the easy way out". I like people who stick to their guns. If you played Terran originally, stick to it.
To give a metaphor I absolutely hate LeBron. If you're a basketball fan at all I shouldn't have to explain everything HE did to take the easy way out.
I still love TLO though and will support him in his Zerg endeavours.
On October 25 2010 01:53 Skeyser wrote: Terran is OP *switches to Terran* Terran gets nerfed *switches to Zerg*
Kinda lame, hope he sticks with it now
He was playing Terran and Zerg BEFORE it was "OP". Also, he made the final call to play Terran because of the wide variety of openers that Terran had compared to a pretty 1 directional Zerg play-style. Now that the patch has come, Zerg has many more openers for example: Baneling bust, 5 Roach rush, any 1 base play, and early expo economy. It seems to me like Zerg has many many more viable openers now, after the patch. I don't think TLO switches due to balances but his play style and now it can be applied to Zerg.
Pretty sad that many people here loved TLO when he was dominating the tournaments and now that he failed in the two GSL's (especially early in GSL 2) everyone is losing interest. I understand fully his decision to switch and I hope he does better next GSL.
On October 25 2010 03:28 brothathunda wrote: I'm a little disappointed as a Terran player TBH. His zerg play is just as unique and fun to watch as his Terran play, but him switching to Zerg seems like he's going "the easy way out". I like people who stick to their guns. If you played Terran originally, stick to it.
To give a metaphor I absolutely hate LeBron. If you're a basketball fan at all I shouldn't have to explain everything HE did to take the easy way out.
I still love TLO though and will support him in his Zerg endeavours.
Well he never played Terran originally
He was always torn between Zerg and Terran and if it wasn't for the ZvZ matchup which now seems to be a lot deeper than it was when he had to make the decision to stick to one race, he would have picked Zerg back then already.
I guess so TBO, I just think it was a bad time to switch. Even if it was with all the right intentions, given the recent patch, it makes it seem like he's just hoping from Terran to Zerg given the recent difficulties Terran has been having since the 1.1.2 patch.
I do agree that Zerg fits TLO's play style a bit more than Terran though. So I'm sure it will work out for him. Just disappointed as a Terran player I guess.
This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
On October 25 2010 03:36 brothathunda wrote: I guess so TBO, I just think it was a bad time to switch. Even if it was with all the right intentions, given the recent patch, it makes it seem like he's just hoping from Terran to Zerg given the recent difficulties Terran has been having since the 1.1.2 patch.
I do agree that Zerg fits TLO's play style a bit more than Terran though. So I'm sure it will work out for him. Just disappointed as a Terran player I guess.
Well I think it was said he was practicing zerg already, perhaps planning to play it for Blizzcon and that the patch came at an inopportune time for him, in a way. It made him look cheap.
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
He was random in beta and was playing still zerg recently, the recent patch made him switch for this period to zerg because of their macro advantage. Not a mistery there. If i was into competitive play and had good zerg practice, i would do the same. At that level you just play to win without complaining about balance.
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
Yes. They can.
The patches was less than a month ago, really, learn2play. As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
To be completely honest, the TvZ MU now feels like pushing a large rock up a steep hill for Terrans. They have nothing to really threaten a Zerg's FE, so they'll always be behind economically if they don't do some decent harass. And your harassment options are limited because reapers come too late, helions will pretty much always take damage from roaches against a decent Zerg, and queens w/ overseers can fend off cloaked banshees. A terran's most effective harassment is probably going to be double starport banshees, but even then the Zerg could just counterattack since you won't really have much.
On the other side, once a Zerg gets the critical mass of mutalisks, a Terran can't really move out of his base or reasonably take a third since his army would be too spread out. At that point Zerg can just drone, expand, and spread creep.
@ Nav: Much more than reapers were nerfed in these previous patches. Maybe you're still playing BW a bit too much, since if you were playing SC2 you would know that a depot before rax prevents any type of early 9 rax/10 rax aggression. You would also know that medivac acceleration and top speed was reduced, so that stalkers easily catch up and snipe them. You would also know that siege tank damage has been reduced from 50 to 35 against light armored units. You would also know that bunkers build 5 seconds slower. All of these are substantial nerfs. Do not discount them.
@ Mythical: Yeah, very true. I think TLO will excel at zerg though so in a way I guess I am excited.
@ Faint: I believe he is talking about early aggression. If you haven't noticed Zergs now freely take a very greedy 14 hatch, because they no longer have to worry about a 9 or 10 rax.
Nice, i was wondering why he played zerg on blizzcon, the thought that he did it for balls was pretty weird. Looking forward to learn his infestor play!
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
Yes. They can.
The patches was less than a month ago, really, learn2play. As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
None of that is early game. Mid game harass? Sure. But you can't apply EARLY pressure. You can theoretically rush for ghost, but ghosts can't hold pushes against Zerg the way they can against Protoss. Banshees might be the option, Boxer was using them quite well recently. But again, it's not early.
It´s funny how I´m never a huge fan of these guys who change races like IdrA and TLO. I know they are great gamers but something in my nerdy brains always seems to identify the real Terran spirit in a player. TLO´s little smile always gave him away, that untrostworthy look of real swindler...a zerg. So I was not surprised when he decided to leave the path of true honor.
For a while when he was allowed to race pick, he chose to play Zerg against Terran rather than tvt. At a time when the matchup was heavily favoring Terran, he chose to play Zerg anyway. I don't think it's appropriate to say he just switches to the best race. He obviously wants to be creative. I am very sad to see him switch from Terran, but the patch really cut into the early game options and flexibility for the race so it's not that surprising.
On October 25 2010 03:55 Fa1nT wrote: As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
Ghosts? Expensive garbage against a macroing Zerg, too expensive for early game. Banshees? Made of paper and useless once Lair is out. Hellions of all varieties are raped by roaches. Ravens kinda sorta work.
Every TvZ will degenerate to the same turtling Terran with Thors/tanks/marines versus a Zerg on 5+ bases. It's gone from badly balanced to badly balanced, with Z having a slight upper hand instead of T.
Terran now plays almost exactly like a weaker, less mobile Toss in that matchup.
On October 25 2010 03:55 Fa1nT wrote: As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
Ghosts? Expensive garbage against a macroing Zerg, too expensive for early game. Banshees? Made of paper and useless once Lair is out. Hellions of all varieties are raped by roaches. Ravens kinda sorta work.
Every TvZ will degenerate to the same turtling Terran with Thors/tanks/marines versus a Zerg on 5+ bases. It's gone from badly balanced to badly balanced, with Z having a slight upper hand instead of T.
Terran now plays almost exactly like a weaker, less mobile Toss in that matchup.
Yeah. It used to be that Terran could go mech, but now, like Toss, they need a core of low tier units.
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
Yes. They can.
The patches was less than a month ago, really, learn2play. As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
None of that is early game. Mid game harass? Sure. But you can't apply EARLY pressure. You can theoretically rush for ghost, but ghosts can't hold pushes against Zerg the way they can against Protoss. Banshees might be the option, Boxer was using them quite well recently. But again, it's not early.
Banshees can come out 30-40 food, I think that's early enough to do SOME damage to a Zerg player.
I mean ofc Reapers are gone now and Hellions are less effective, but still consider that practically nothing else has changed, Drops are still as effective as ever.
Let's also consider the fact that with more Z players doing FE that Terran players can now play with the idea that their own FE will be safer.
And who says that pressure has to be put on early for it to be effective? Blue flame hellions drops are the most horrifying thing I have ever seen
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
Yes. They can.
The patches was less than a month ago, really, learn2play. As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
None of that is early game. Mid game harass? Sure. But you can't apply EARLY pressure. You can theoretically rush for ghost, but ghosts can't hold pushes against Zerg the way they can against Protoss. Banshees might be the option, Boxer was using them quite well recently. But again, it's not early.
Banshees can come out 30-40 food, I think that's early enough to do SOME damage to a Zerg player.
I mean ofc Reapers are gone now and Hellions are less effective, but still consider that practically nothing else has changed, Drops are still as effective as ever.
Let's also consider the fact that with more Z players doing FE that Terran players can now play with the idea that their own FE will be safer.
And who says that pressure has to be put on early for it to be effective? Blue flame hellions drops are the most horrifying thing I have ever seen
Plus a banshee has to kill 5+ drones to really be worth it, something that's not necessarily possible with Queens. Or of course, they could rush you with roaches and win. And Drops are so much slower if you read the patch notes. Mutalisks effectively shut down drops. And with speedlings, Terran FE is always risky unless you over defend with bunkers and the like. Maybe you should build a PF at your natural.
Why does it have to be early? Because once a Zerg gets a strong economy, they're nearly unstoppable. Late game harass is nice, but early game is what that matchup is made of. That's what TLO relied upon, and now it's almost gone.
Oh please don't let this degenerate into a balance discussion. This was actually moderately interesting at first. Be interesting to see how he does in GSL 3.
On October 25 2010 04:21 Piy wrote: Oh please don't let this degenerate into a balance discussion. This was actually moderately interesting at first. Be interesting to see how he does in GSL 3.
Well balance seems like the only reason to make a change at this point.
On October 25 2010 03:55 Fa1nT wrote: As in, learn to make stuff besides MMM. Ghosts? Harass. Banshees? Hellion drops? BLUE hellions? Ravens?
Ghosts? Expensive garbage against a macroing Zerg, too expensive for early game. Banshees? Made of paper and useless once Lair is out. Hellions of all varieties are raped by roaches. Ravens kinda sorta work.
Every TvZ will degenerate to the same turtling Terran with Thors/tanks/marines versus a Zerg on 5+ bases. It's gone from badly balanced to badly balanced, with Z having a slight upper hand instead of T.
Terran now plays almost exactly like a weaker, less mobile Toss in that matchup.
Yeah. It used to be that Terran could go mech, but now, like Toss, they need a core of low tier units.
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
Makes sense. TLO is a strong all-around player (as opposed to specialized, mono-race ones) and he's a beacon of creativity. I think that it would be interesting to see the way he can exploit the changes put forth by each new patch.
spin master right here.
On a side note i believe pre patch zergs deserve some credit for sticking to their guns (even though i never really thought they were UP much), we see a whole bunch of people switching/trying zerg our after only a couple weeks of this new patch
I agree. I have much respect for the people who make their race work, whether or not it's considered stronger than the others.
Idra, zenio, Fruitdealer, all these guys stuck it out, made it work, and that's why they have the respect they do.
TLO switching immediately after a patch like this is a little disappointing.
You have a warped perspective. Zerg has always been strongest. Most boring, most susceptible to cheese and most difficult to play, but they've always been the best out of the three. Recent patch only made it more obvious. Notice the difference between a classy player like TLO and someone like Dimaga, Fruitseller or Idra (no offense to any of them), when he doesn't threaten to switch -- he simply does it.
Anyway, best of luck to TLO. I don't believe he'll suddenly start beating 100% zerg users in ZvZ but we'll see.
Yup, no whining, no attention-whoring or trying to prove a point. Just does it unlike the names you mention (even though they're awesome as well)
On October 24 2010 02:17 tieya wrote: terran gets strong he goes to terran, zerg gets strong he goes to zerg
lets see if he will stick to a race
not dissing him in anyway, i actually really liked how he played zerg, i kind of hope he sticks with it this time.
That actually sounds like your dissing him, TLO plays this game the right way, Zerg didn't get buffed through the roof. I have no idea where that came from. He can play any race he wants. gl hf TLO.
On October 25 2010 03:56 Iracor wrote: To be completely honest, the TvZ MU now feels like pushing a large rock up a steep hill for Terrans. They have nothing to really threaten a Zerg's FE, so they'll always be behind economically if they don't do some decent harass. And your harassment options are limited because reapers come too late, helions will pretty much always take damage from roaches against a decent Zerg, and queens w/ overseers can fend off cloaked banshees. A terran's most effective harassment is probably going to be double starport banshees, but even then the Zerg could just counterattack since you won't really have much.
On the other side, once a Zerg gets the critical mass of mutalisks, a Terran can't really move out of his base or reasonably take a third since his army would be too spread out. At that point Zerg can just drone, expand, and spread creep.
Yup. Blizzard overstepped their balance changes on this one. Pro players like Fruitdealer had enough tools before with Zerg to be competitive against the best Terrans in the GSL but with the latest patch, Fruitdealer will 2-0 everybody in the GSL for every GSLseason until there is another patch.
On October 25 2010 03:56 Iracor wrote: To be completely honest, the TvZ MU now feels like pushing a large rock up a steep hill for Terrans. They have nothing to really threaten a Zerg's FE, so they'll always be behind economically if they don't do some decent harass. And your harassment options are limited because reapers come too late, helions will pretty much always take damage from roaches against a decent Zerg, and queens w/ overseers can fend off cloaked banshees. A terran's most effective harassment is probably going to be double starport banshees, but even then the Zerg could just counterattack since you won't really have much.
On the other side, once a Zerg gets the critical mass of mutalisks, a Terran can't really move out of his base or reasonably take a third since his army would be too spread out. At that point Zerg can just drone, expand, and spread creep.
Yup. Blizzard overstepped their balance changes on this one. Pro players like Fruitdealer had enough tools before with Zerg to be competitive against the best Terrans in the GSL but with the latest patch, Fruitdealer will 2-0 everybody in the GSL for every GSLseason until there is another patch.
it's too bad that zerg had to deal with this for months, and you guys cant take it for a few days.
This is bitter/sweet for me, as I'm a terran player and I'm saddened to see one of our best Terrans leaving the boat. On the other hand, TLO's zerg is freaking awesome.
On October 25 2010 05:25 tieya wrote: it's too bad that zerg had to deal with this for months, and you guys cant take it for a few days.
this.
Wouldn't it be better if the game was balanced, I honestly can't understand some zerg players being happy over how weak terran is right now.
And I root for toss, and nobody's even mentioning how toss probably won't have any representative in GSL2 Ro8
But overall I think the game is getting close to balance, and there is a lot of unnecessary complaining about every little thing. Terrans need to figure some new strats and new openings, it's still too early since the patch came out.
On October 25 2010 03:56 Iracor wrote: To be completely honest, the TvZ MU now feels like pushing a large rock up a steep hill for Terrans. They have nothing to really threaten a Zerg's FE, so they'll always be behind economically if they don't do some decent harass. And your harassment options are limited because reapers come too late, helions will pretty much always take damage from roaches against a decent Zerg, and queens w/ overseers can fend off cloaked banshees. A terran's most effective harassment is probably going to be double starport banshees, but even then the Zerg could just counterattack since you won't really have much.
On the other side, once a Zerg gets the critical mass of mutalisks, a Terran can't really move out of his base or reasonably take a third since his army would be too spread out. At that point Zerg can just drone, expand, and spread creep.
Yup. Blizzard overstepped their balance changes on this one. Pro players like Fruitdealer had enough tools before with Zerg to be competitive against the best Terrans in the GSL but with the latest patch, Fruitdealer will 2-0 everybody in the GSL for every GSLseason until there is another patch.
it's too bad that zerg had to deal with this for months, and you guys cant take it for a few days.
The imbalances in TvZ has always been there and a lot of people have been aware of them for way longer than a few days. These imbalances were not as obvious due to all the abusive ways to get ahead in the early game but any terran who intentionally avoided the abusive stuff like planetary fortress mech or 5rax reaper openings or early all-in timing pushes have been painfully aware of the TvZ imbalance in a long macro game. The only thing that has changed is that seeing this imbalance is now inevitable as even the abusive ways out of it are gone.
But these issues are in no way directly the result of the roach change or the depot before rax.
If you cant punish fast expands (which you can) as terran, then start to scout earlier and 15 CC. A 2 base timing attack is sick strong.
Can't belive how people can even utter the word "weak" together with terran just because your early game options have been reduced and thus changed the metagame abit. Adapt maybe?
On October 25 2010 05:25 tieya wrote: it's too bad that zerg had to deal with this for months, and you guys cant take it for a few days.
this.
you guys make it sound like zergs didn't bitch the entire time too lol
This.
Also, i am a terran player and i dont really think the balance issues of the latest patch have been discovered. I think it's way too early to bitch. Give it a few weeks/months.
I realize now, that I am completely off topic. Thought this was another topic based on the posts i read lol.
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
I havent been here that long but your name stands out to me. Youre always whining about terran esp after patch 1.2. How was the reaper play before fair to the zerg? is hellion harass is ineffective now? they can still force units or even worse roaches when most zergs dont want to make them. Also early aggressive as far as I can tell still works with game 2 between dimaga and Makaprime coming to my mind. IMO its fair, zerg has to draw drones to fight off the bunker rush which will hurt their econ but if they can successfully stop it theyre about even with the terran then its fair game from there. If the terran is successful obviously they'll be at a gret position.
On October 25 2010 04:57 McFoo wrote: Hope TLO's zerg is just as entertaining as his terran : )
Oh it is my friend; it is. I've only seen a handful of his games, but he does a lot more riskier builds than most zerg's. And his creep spread is very aggressive.
I'll miss watching his Terran, but at least Boxer's back to entertain us.
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
I havent been here that long but your name stands out to me. Youre always whining about terran esp after patch 1.2. How was the reaper play before fair to the zerg? is hellion harass is ineffective now? they can still force units or even worse roaches when most zergs dont want to make them. Also early aggressive as far as I can tell still works with game 2 between dimaga and Makaprime coming to my mind. IMO its fair, zerg has to draw drones to fight off the bunker rush which will hurt their econ but if they can successfully stop it theyre about even with the terran then its fair game from there. If the terran is successful obviously they'll be at a gret position.
Your logic is off, Zergs don't want to make Roaches? Thats all they do now, combined with Bling/Muta. Terran is weaker after 1.2, obviously, it was supposed to weaken Terrans, I don't know if it's UP now but it's definitely weaker. Pretty pathetic that all of the same Zerg's that cried since release are now telling people to "adapt" and "change" their builds to compensate. Sad, so sad...
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
I havent been here that long but your name stands out to me. Youre always whining about terran esp after patch 1.2. How was the reaper play before fair to the zerg? is hellion harass is ineffective now? they can still force units or even worse roaches when most zergs dont want to make them. Also early aggressive as far as I can tell still works with game 2 between dimaga and Makaprime coming to my mind. IMO its fair, zerg has to draw drones to fight off the bunker rush which will hurt their econ but if they can successfully stop it theyre about even with the terran then its fair game from there. If the terran is successful obviously they'll be at a great position.
Your logic is off, Zergs don't want to make Roaches? Thats all they do now, combined with Bling/Muta. Terran is weaker after 1.2, obviously, it was supposed to weaken Terrans, I don't know if it's UP now but it's definitely weaker. Pretty pathetic that all of the same Zerg's that cried since release are now telling people to "adapt" and "change" their builds to compensate. Sad, so sad...
Not sure what level of play youre refering to, but if it can be helped making roaches at the beginning isn't ideal to a bling/muta build.
Terran is obviously weaker because they had their early game options reduced, one big factor cited by many pro zerg players. If weaker means better, more balanced play, thats not a bad thing.
Telling others to "adapt" and "change" is sure as hell better than talking shit isn't it? Which do you prefer, sit back and whine or adapt and change? If it gets to the point where Zerg is indeed OP and further balancing needs to be implemented (which it probably will to some degree) ill be happy to admit it.
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
I havent been here that long but your name stands out to me. Youre always whining about terran esp after patch 1.2. How was the reaper play before fair to the zerg? is hellion harass is ineffective now? they can still force units or even worse roaches when most zergs dont want to make them. Also early aggressive as far as I can tell still works with game 2 between dimaga and Makaprime coming to my mind. IMO its fair, zerg has to draw drones to fight off the bunker rush which will hurt their econ but if they can successfully stop it theyre about even with the terran then its fair game from there. If the terran is successful obviously they'll be at a gret position.
Your logic is off, Zergs don't want to make Roaches? Thats all they do now, combined with Bling/Muta. Terran is weaker after 1.2, obviously, it was supposed to weaken Terrans, I don't know if it's UP now but it's definitely weaker. Pretty pathetic that all of the same Zerg's that cried since release are now telling people to "adapt" and "change" their builds to compensate. Sad, so sad...
Agree. The top players will make roaches and FE with no risk to losing their natural.
On October 25 2010 05:25 tieya wrote: it's too bad that zerg had to deal with this for months, and you guys cant take it for a few days.
this.
Wouldn't it be better if the game was balanced, I honestly can't understand some zerg players being happy over how weak terran is right now.
And I root for toss, and nobody's even mentioning how toss probably won't have any representative in GSL2 Ro8
But overall I think the game is getting close to balance, and there is a lot of unnecessary complaining about every little thing. Terrans need to figure some new strats and new openings, it's still too early since the patch came out.
You're out of your mind. Terran is not weak, nor is Protoss. This moment right now is about as balanced as the game has been since Beta.
On October 25 2010 03:47 naventus wrote: This wave of younger SC players is really embarrassing. How can there be so much whining about perceived balance?
How much has changed in the last two patches? Literally ONLY reapers have been nerfed (any the reaper opening was only an autoloss on LT), and the roach buff this patch, though hellion openings have been nullified since forever.
So basically in terms of mid and late game balance there have been NO changes. In terms of early game balance, only 5raxreaper is removed. All those 1 base plays still exist.
Yet, as we're seeing those plays aren't that dangerous. And Z's mid game has always been strong despite the clamoring of the masses.
So basically with 0 changes to Z, it's now a very strong race.
--
It's hard to get better at the game if you delude yourself about how things are.
You really don't understand TvZ. T HAS to apply pressure and force units. They effectively can't do that anymore, at least not very well, which lets the zerg with two hatcheries and two queens to out macro the Terran easily. Hellions, which seemed critical to TLO's play, are nullified, and reapers are drastically weakened. But all of that is forgetting the most important change: the depot before barracks change. This means on ANY map Zerg can go hatch first with almost no risk. It severely limits Terran's options and the POTENTIAL for harass. It means Zerg can safely do what was a risky move before.
I havent been here that long but your name stands out to me. Youre always whining about terran esp after patch 1.2. How was the reaper play before fair to the zerg? is hellion harass is ineffective now? they can still force units or even worse roaches when most zergs dont want to make them. Also early aggressive as far as I can tell still works with game 2 between dimaga and Makaprime coming to my mind. IMO its fair, zerg has to draw drones to fight off the bunker rush which will hurt their econ but if they can successfully stop it theyre about even with the terran then its fair game from there. If the terran is successful obviously they'll be at a gret position.
Your logic is off, Zergs don't want to make Roaches? Thats all they do now, combined with Bling/Muta. Terran is weaker after 1.2, obviously, it was supposed to weaken Terrans, I don't know if it's UP now but it's definitely weaker. Pretty pathetic that all of the same Zerg's that cried since release are now telling people to "adapt" and "change" their builds to compensate. Sad, so sad...
As a terran player, we should be experimenting, so those zerg players are right. The argument that frustrates me the most is "finally we see true skill showing, the zerg players are a lot better than the terran/toss". I mean they might be, it might be that zerg is stronger than it should be or more likely, terran/toss haven't figured out a way to deal with the patch changes and are therefore doing worse. So yes, we got to keep experimenting and trust that blizzard balances sc2.
I've been experimenting with Terran at 1700+ diamond. Even time I try to macro I get destroyed. If my hellion harass fails, I get destroyed. 1 queen and 2 spine crawlers shut down all hellion harass. Dropping hellions takes too long. The problem is figuring out how to slow down zerg macro and right now its impossible especially on a large map where its difficult to pull off timing attacks with tanks and thors because of the immobility. But who knows, maybe someone will figure something out.
I'm not sure this is a classic balance decision with regards to TLO switching.
TLO is known to prefer innovative builds. He doesn't just want to rely on out microing or out macroing players. He wants to out-think players before the battle even begins.
With the barracks' new requirement, and the necessity of the barracks for any relevant strategy, terrans are now reliant on more predictable builds. Zerg provides TLO with more flexibility.
That being said, zerg is also just really powerful in a progamer's hands right now. Blizzard granted the race the ability to expand at will, maintain map control and then nerfed terrans ability to harass (reapers + reaper speed + barracks requirement) so that zerg can comfortably expand early with one basic harass option (hellions) that they KNOW they will be preparing for. Banshees are gimmicky and not game effective since you'll be on one base and the damage you'll do will not compensate for the advantages zerg accrues from the second base. The most recent shoutcast on HDstarcraft's channel shows a ZvT where the T launched an incredibly successful hellion harass that roasted more than a dozen drones only to be even in economy within a minute.
So, as of now, terran can't assault early. If it gets to the late game, they are done. Terrans are trying to find a narrow timing window they can exploit. The reason we're seeing all these early thor pushes. Oh well, I guess its zerg's time in the sun.
On October 25 2010 08:19 Choirdrunk wrote: I'm not sure this is a classic balance decision with regards to TLO switching.
TLO is known to prefer innovative builds. He doesn't just want to rely on out microing or out macroing players. He wants to out-think players before the battle even begins.
With the barracks' new requirement, and the necessity of the barracks for any relevant strategy, terrans are now reliant on more predictable builds. Zerg provides TLO with more flexibility.
That being said, zerg is also just really powerful in a progamer's hands right now. Blizzard granted the race the ability to expand at will, maintain map control and then nerfed terrans ability to harass (reapers + reaper speed + barracks requirement) so that zerg can comfortably expand early with one basic harass option (hellions) that they KNOW they will be preparing for. Banshees are gimmicky and not game effective since you'll be on one base and the damage you'll do will not compensate for the advantages zerg accrues from the second base. The most recent shoutcast on HDstarcraft's channel shows a ZvT where the T launched an incredibly successful hellion harass that roasted more than a dozen drones only to be even in economy within a minute.
So, as of now, terran can't assault early. If it gets to the late game, they are done. Terrans are trying to find a narrow timing window they can exploit. The reason we're seeing all these early thor pushes. Oh well, I guess its zerg's time in the sun.
Well said. I play T and think the patch went a little overboard and now it is an uphill battle against Z from the moment they 14hatch (all do now). However, the imbalance is not as bad as what Z had to deal with before. So I think terran users can put up with it for the time being, as blizzard have shown they are getting closer to ideal balance with the last two patches.
On topic, who cares what race TLO plays? Or any progamer for that matter. It is their livelihood - they should pick whichever race they want, whenever, for whatever reasons.
On October 25 2010 08:19 Choirdrunk wrote: That being said, zerg is also just really powerful in a progamer's hands right now. Blizzard granted the race the ability to expand at will, maintain map control and then nerfed terrans ability to harass (reapers + reaper speed + barracks requirement) so that zerg can comfortably expand early with one basic harass option (hellions) that they KNOW they will be preparing for. Banshees are gimmicky and not game effective since you'll be on one base and the damage you'll do will not compensate for the advantages zerg accrues from the second base. The most recent shoutcast on HDstarcraft's channel shows a ZvT where the T launched an incredibly successful hellion harass that roasted more than a dozen drones only to be even in economy within a minute.
So, as of now, terran can't assault early. If it gets to the late game, they are done. Terrans are trying to find a narrow timing window they can exploit. The reason we're seeing all these early thor pushes. Oh well, I guess its zerg's time in the sun.
Yeah, that's a good description of the top level games now. Top Terran players can't stop top Zerg players from macroing and taking map control because of the Reaper nerfs and the Roach buffs. The game is quite unbalanced now.
The game was being dominated by Terran to an absurd extent. There have been nearly 100 tournament wins by Terran players since the game was released and around 10 for Zerg. It had become the norm to see 5 or 6 Terran in the top 8 of nearly every tournament, while seeing more than 1 Zerg at that stage was a rarity. The game was in dire need of patching.
A lot of Terrans won't do as well in 1.12 as they did previously, but the truth is they should have never been enjoying such great success in the first place. Morrow, who by his own admission wasn't practicing a lot, should never have been outperforming Dimaga by such a huge margin. Silver should never have been 2-0'ing Idra. Players like Check, Zenio, Darkforce, Slush etc should never have been getting stomped every time they came up against a top Terran in their region.
Have Terran been nerfed too hard? It's too early to say. We've seen 4 high level LAN tournaments since 1.12 was released (MLG DC and Blizzcon in the US and both DSRack tournaments in Europe) and there was a Terran in the final of all of them. Maybe they'll be shown to be underpowered in the coming weeks but there's absolutely nothing to back those claims up right now.
On October 25 2010 09:04 cuppatea wrote: The game was being dominated by Terran to an absurd extent. There have been nearly 100 tournament wins by Terran players since the game was released and around 10 for Zerg. It had become the norm to see 5 or 6 Terran in the top 8 of nearly every tournament, while seeing more than 1 Zerg at that stage was a rarity. The game was in dire need of patching.
A lot of Terrans won't do as well in 1.12 as they did previously, but the truth is they should have never been enjoying such great success in the first place. Morrow, who by his own admission wasn't practicing a lot, should never have been outperforming Dimaga by such a huge margin. Silver should never have been 2-0'ing Idra. Players like Check, Zenio, Darkforce, Slush etc should never have been getting stomped every time they came up against a top Terran in their region.
Have Terran been nerfed too hard? It's too early to say. We've seen 4 high level LAN tournaments since 1.12 was released (MLG DC and Blizzcon in the US and both DSRack tournaments in Europe) and there was a Terran in the final of all of them. Maybe they'll be shown to be underpowered in the coming weeks but there's absolutely nothing to back those claims up right now.
Well said, I agree. T is definitely not weak at the moment and those saying it is need to realize maybe they're just not good.
As a zerg and terran player, I know how he feels I like to play both although I feel my terran is more solid, but my zerg is decent, infestor play is my strength. He can pick whatever race he wants, and am glad he's just playing as I love his playstyle.
each hatchery can hold up to 19 larvae. while that doesn't happen much at all, it's pretty amazing how many production "facilities" a zerg can potentially have with multiple bases. terran players have to figure something out. i've seen the good terrans win a major confrontation and still get overrun without a macro disadvantage.
On October 25 2010 09:28 taintmachine wrote: each hatchery can hold up to 19 larvae. while that doesn't happen much at all, it's pretty amazing how many production "facilities" a zerg can potentially have with multiple bases. terran players have to figure something out. i've seen the good terrans win a major confrontation and still get overrun without a macro disadvantage.
What you've seen is actually the opposite of what is shown at high level competition.
Great players from any race will be efficient with their replenishment and as resilient as possible to counter attacks after losing their army.
Terran is actually the best race for recovering because their economy is so good and their units are so efficient.
The only time terran has trouble recovering at all is when you get an army sitting on top of their production facility and their squishies blow up the moment they pop out, but if the enemy counters that deep into your base all the races would be in a lot of trouble anyway.
Toss is the worst race to replenish with because their army, while strong late game, takes a while to rebuild.
Terran is the best, if they do not have a macro disadvantage.
If zerg is up 1 base they become the best, but that's also because they are up 1 base.
At top level play the people I see recover the most from getting their army wiped out are terrans, when it is equal base.
On October 25 2010 09:28 taintmachine wrote: each hatchery can hold up to 19 larvae. while that doesn't happen much at all, it's pretty amazing how many production "facilities" a zerg can potentially have with multiple bases. terran players have to figure something out. i've seen the good terrans win a major confrontation and still get overrun without a macro disadvantage.
What you've seen is actually the opposite of what is shown at high level competition.
Great players from any race will be efficient with their replenishment and as resilient as possible to counter attacks after losing their army.
Terran is actually the best race for recovering because their economy is so good and their units are so efficient.
The only time terran has trouble recovering at all is when you get an army sitting on top of their production facility and their squishies blow up the moment they pop out, but if the enemy counters that deep into your base all the races would be in a lot of trouble anyway.
Toss is the worst race to replenish with because their army, while strong late game, takes a while to rebuild.
Terran is the best, if they do not have a macro disadvantage.
If zerg is up 1 base they become the best, but that's also because they are up 1 base.
At top level play the people I see recover the most from getting their army wiped out are terrans, when it is equal base.
Excuse me, what? Terran has not only the slowest build times in the game, they also have their units spread out over the most production facilities. Terran is the WORST race at replentishing a lost army. Especially if your army contains mech or air units, if you lose the army thats it, you are never ever going to remake it in time to stay in the game.
Also, it is even when it is equal base? Yeah that is exactly why terrans are complaining about lategame TvZ and TvP. You can't actually stay on even bases without getting rolled. You can keep up all the way to three bases, after that the only way you are staying even in expansions is if your opponent is not good enough to take advantage of the fact that you actually can't defend all your bases.
yea i agree with vangarde about terran having the worst production. reactors are good but only can be used for 4 units and block other tech untis for that building. i think lategame zerg has always had a big advantage over terran in terms of production. with the tank nerf, i feel this really isn't a hard opinion to hold. previously, it was just the case that terran could abuse zerg early and either end games early or make the zerg transition into mid w/ a crippled econ. also, tanks murdered lings beyond reason, so larvae could be just about wasted when trying to pump lings out as a quick reinforcement.
protoss actually has strong production w/ multiple nexi (sp?) because chronoboost reduces WG cooldown, and the backbone of their army comes from the warpgate. pooling boosts before a confrontation seems very smart to me.
On October 25 2010 09:04 cuppatea wrote: The game was being dominated by Terran to an absurd extent. There have been nearly 100 tournament wins by Terran players since the game was released and around 10 for Zerg. It had become the norm to see 5 or 6 Terran in the top 8 of nearly every tournament, while seeing more than 1 Zerg at that stage was a rarity. The game was in dire need of patching.
A lot of Terrans won't do as well in 1.12 as they did previously, but the truth is they should have never been enjoying such great success in the first place. Morrow, who by his own admission wasn't practicing a lot, should never have been outperforming Dimaga by such a huge margin. Silver should never have been 2-0'ing Idra. Players like Check, Zenio, Darkforce, Slush etc should never have been getting stomped every time they came up against a top Terran in their region.
Have Terran been nerfed too hard? It's too early to say. We've seen 4 high level LAN tournaments since 1.12 was released (MLG DC and Blizzcon in the US and both DSRack tournaments in Europe) and there was a Terran in the final of all of them. Maybe they'll be shown to be underpowered in the coming weeks but there's absolutely nothing to back those claims up right now.
Everything shown at Blizzcon's Multiplayer presentation proves alot of this wrong in that you can't really base balance off tounraments and let's not forget that Fruitseller won the biggest and most fruitful tournament out there. The GSL. Most of the Terran OP stuff came just because the spotlight Zergs made some statements regarding things they thought were imbalances and the community as always blew it up even tho most other comparable things regarding the matchup didn't show drastic imbalance even in diamond. It was basically at the highest level of execution and timings that Terran were winning more than necessary against Zerg and even that was not totally proven wrong but slightly by Fruitseller's complete dominance in the GSL.
Not totally derailing you though it is too early to tell if this patch makes Zerg completely broken or not but in those SlayerSBoxeR vs Fruitseller games it "appears" that there was very little boxer could do to win as Zergs macro potential and unit effectiveness vs Terrans is just devastating and there was no way for BoxeR to take and hold a third in either game because of the ease Zerg can take map control simply by surviving Terran attempts to punish a FE.
On October 25 2010 09:28 taintmachine wrote: each hatchery can hold up to 19 larvae. while that doesn't happen much at all, it's pretty amazing how many production "facilities" a zerg can potentially have with multiple bases. terran players have to figure something out. i've seen the good terrans win a major confrontation and still get overrun without a macro disadvantage.
What you've seen is actually the opposite of what is shown at high level competition.
Great players from any race will be efficient with their replenishment and as resilient as possible to counter attacks after losing their army.
Terran is actually the best race for recovering because their economy is so good and their units are so efficient.
The only time terran has trouble recovering at all is when you get an army sitting on top of their production facility and their squishies blow up the moment they pop out, but if the enemy counters that deep into your base all the races would be in a lot of trouble anyway.
Toss is the worst race to replenish with because their army, while strong late game, takes a while to rebuild.
Terran is the best, if they do not have a macro disadvantage.
If zerg is up 1 base they become the best, but that's also because they are up 1 base.
At top level play the people I see recover the most from getting their army wiped out are terrans, when it is equal base.
Excuse me, what? Terran has not only the slowest build times in the game, they also have their units spread out over the most production facilities. Terran is the WORST race at replentishing a lost army. Especially if your army contains mech or air units, if you lose the army thats it, you are never ever going to remake it in time to stay in the game.
Also, it is even when it is equal base? Yeah that is exactly why terrans are complaining about lategame TvZ and TvP. You can't actually stay on even bases without getting rolled. You can keep up all the way to three bases, after that the only way you are staying even in expansions is if your opponent is not good enough to take advantage of the fact that you actually can't defend all your bases.
You are confusing the fact that many terrans were carried by balance issues for a while and could not adapt to the patches, with how the game has been playing out at top level.
Protoss has the weakest replenish, we all know this, because their units are built around high resource cost + high food cost. Their units are stronger on a 1 to 1 basis (not actually true but that is the concept behind them).
We also know that a zerg on equal base to a terran will generally have a hard time keeping up in macro with the terran and will have a weaker army, efficiency wise.
There are random exceptions but personally I only base my opinion on what the top players are doing
terran was too good against zerg early game and tanks were too good against ling groups. this was a map issue and an issue w/ how good terran harassment was. people shouldn't cling to ideas like "the entire matchup is or was imbalanced!" because that's just fucking stupid.
It's entirely true that Terran was too strong against Zerg early game. That in part hid the fact that Zerg is too strong late game, because it rarely got to that point. Terran needs to kill the Zerg outright, because if you just trade armies and the Zerg is up a base (which they're going to be), you'll never rebuild in time.
I don't really have any idea how to change this, the disparity is kind of built into the race design. Are we okay with the matchup being "Terran wins early or doesn't win at all"? Maybe we'll have to be.
EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
toss units are good 1:1, robert. i dunno what you're talking about. situationally they aren't, like if they don't have the proper tech or are facing a counter unit (marauder vs stalker).
Well, let it not be said that TLO doesn't have balls. I love how MorroW pretty much forgot about his supposed plans to be Zerg, yet TLO is coming out of the racial closet as it were. TLO's Zerg has honestly fascinated me more than any other players', so I'll really be eagerly waiting for GSL3.
On October 25 2010 10:01 kojinshugi wrote: EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
Isn't it common wisdom that "It's designed that T has to stop Z to get base ahead?" If the T can't stop it, he's already losing.
terran are by far the worst race curently at the higher level , that not because they are bad , but protoss and zerg pretty much figured out how good terran play and what they will do + what they can do + the heavy nerfing since many many patch make the terran the bully race .
for exemple in t v z , you can open 1 suply 1 baract ( something else ? lol ? ) , the zerg fast exp , pretty much nothing the terran can do here , the zerg make 2 queen , make some zergling vs the lone reaper if the terran try that and good zerg will got speed ling in time and just kill them , and the reaper speed require factory now aka reaper are are now useless and im not sure why they are still a unit in the game .
but anyway let go back to the matchup , after open 1 baract the terran will wall off with one factory and make one hellion ( or 2 hellion , we switch add on , this look gosu , why not ?! )
vs the hellion the zerg will make 3-5 roach , completly counter the hellion and go back macro queen inject mode while mining for 2 mineral base while the terran still on one .
here the terran cant do anything , the zerg can try timing push roach , if the terran try any push baneling are here .
so curently terran we go 1 fast thor because that the only thing we can do and who can counter timing roach push or baneling + ling .
pretty much no one attack here , the terran will take the exp when he got the one thor out with some hellion and some marine , medivak will be soon out .
let stop and look at the zerg , he now on mass drone mode and got one realy strong economy .
he make many zergling with baneling and or roach , he take third exp and infestor will be out soon .
the terran scans , see the third exp and use the only timing push he can do in the whole game , (here we send 8-10 scv for repair thor , this look gosu and that seriously strong , i should not say that because people will start notice and thor will be the next to be nerfed , but im tired of the esport manner lying mode....i want one serious RTS like starcraft 1 where the game require real skill )
go back to the push : big army vs army clash , pretty much the winner here come out
1- terran do 100 % dmg = he win right here , 2- terran and zerg do 50 % dmg aka both army almost die= the zerg got advantage 3- terran do 0 % , the push fail = he has loss the game
( this part require good micro skill from both zerg and terran usualy so that not unfair )
but why in number 2 zerg got advantage ? that because of queen inject and the better macro system they give , the zerg can remake one army the fastest in the game , while protoss and terran take more time .
( here we add dropship thor drop harass or marine drop , or both , some time this make the terran come back in the game... but good zerg realy know that coming , what else they can do anyway they think in smilling ?! )
the next push the terran try the zerg now got infestor and with some good use completly destroy the terran army .
in the metagame now people say : OMG this zerg used some crazy micro skill so that the reason he win this fight ,he played well , while this noob terran deserve to be killed for just trying to abuse the terran race .
when the terran win any fight i have say before , zerg will cry IMBALANCE , NERF TERRAN ( using cap make it cooler , right ?! anyway we all love to get one bully no ? so we picked terran )
now the terran players play t v z and see all that and think... OMG , they can do that and win tournament and money ?! , i can too ! okay time to play zerg too .
but the new zerg user got one pretty much hard matchup too , z v p , at high level that pretty hard .
warning : this reply come from after loss over many many many pratice game since the last patch vs good zerg and im curently angry and drunk i probably dont think what i have write and im sorry in advance .
( btw that not zerg players fault either the game like that , everyone do the best they can with what they got , dont hate people for using abusive strategie , good players play for money and will use any mean possible to win, that and what blizzard feal like to nerf or buff from listening to the more vocal fansbase race .
On October 25 2010 10:11 taintmachine wrote: toss units are good 1:1, robert. i dunno what you're talking about. situationally they aren't, like if they don't have the proper tech or are facing a counter unit (marauder vs stalker).
They are in theory, but in practice there are certain units that simply don't match up to their equivalent in other races, even though they are supposed to be the bulky efficient race.
Keep in mind I am not arguing about the natural strength of armies, I am saying that when your entire army gets wiped on equal bases, terran can recover more effectively than the other races. Toss takes a bit of time to rebuild their army to critical mass, zerg is good but they usually have to be 1 base ahead to keep up, so that isn't equal bases.
On October 25 2010 09:04 cuppatea wrote: The game was being dominated by Terran to an absurd extent. There have been nearly 100 tournament wins by Terran players since the game was released and around 10 for Zerg. It had become the norm to see 5 or 6 Terran in the top 8 of nearly every tournament, while seeing more than 1 Zerg at that stage was a rarity. The game was in dire need of patching.
A lot of Terrans won't do as well in 1.12 as they did previously, but the truth is they should have never been enjoying such great success in the first place. Morrow, who by his own admission wasn't practicing a lot, should never have been outperforming Dimaga by such a huge margin. Silver should never have been 2-0'ing Idra. Players like Check, Zenio, Darkforce, Slush etc should never have been getting stomped every time they came up against a top Terran in their region.
Have Terran been nerfed too hard? It's too early to say. We've seen 4 high level LAN tournaments since 1.12 was released (MLG DC and Blizzcon in the US and both DSRack tournaments in Europe) and there was a Terran in the final of all of them. Maybe they'll be shown to be underpowered in the coming weeks but there's absolutely nothing to back those claims up right now.
Well said, I agree. T is definitely not weak at the moment and those saying it is need to realize maybe they're just not good.
Did you like it when Zerg was obviously UP in the early game, and when ever a Zerg commented on it they would get told that it's because they suck? You'r statement is very ignorant as most of the imbalanced feelings Terrans get are from late game with higher level players, not noobs... Thats the entire point, and even high level Zergs admitted a long time ago that all they need to do is survive the early harass and then everything swings in their favor. Now you have a Zerg that doesn't have to worry about much harass and can dominate all game long. The only games I win against Zerg are with thor timing pushes and I am a macro player, I hate knowing that I need to win the game early or not at all.
On October 25 2010 10:25 Oddysay wrote: terran are by far the worst race curently at the higher level , that not because they are bad , but protoss and zerg pretty much figured out how good terran play and what they will do + what they can do + the heavy nerfing since many many patch make the terran the bully race .
for exemple in t v z , you can open 1 suply 1 baract ( something else ? lol ? ) , the zerg fast exp , pretty much nothing the terran can do here , the zerg make 2 queen , make some zergling vs the lone reaper if the terran try that and good zerg will got speed ling in time and just kill them , and the reaper speed require factory now aka reaper are are now useless and im not sure why they are still a unit in the game .
but anyway let go back to the matchup , after open 1 baract the terran will wall off with one factory and make one hellion ( or 2 hellion , we switch add on , this look gosu , why not ?! )
vs the hellion the zerg will make 3-5 roach , completly counter the hellion and go back macro queen inject mode while mining for 2 mineral base while the terran still on one .
here the terran cant do anything , the zerg can try timing push roach , if the terran try any push baneling are here .
so curently terran we go 1 fast thor because that the only thing we can do and who can counter timing roach push or baneling + ling .
pretty much no one attack here , the terran will take the exp when he got the one thor out with some hellion and some marine , medivak will be soon out .
let stop and look at the zerg , he now on mass drone mode and got one realy strong economy .
he make many zergling with baneling and or roach , he take third exp and infestor will be out soon .
the terran scans , see the third exp and use the only timing push he can do in the whole game , (here we send 8-10 scv for repair thor , this look gosu and that seriously strong , i should not say that because people will start notice and thor will be the next to be nerfed , but im tired of the esport manner lying mode....i want one serious RTS like starcraft 1 where the game require real skill )
go back to the push : big army vs army clash , pretty much the winner here come out
1- terran do 100 % dmg = he win right here , 2- terran and zerg do 50 % dmg aka both army almost die= the zerg got advantage 3- terran do 0 % , the push fail = he has loss the game
( this part require good micro skill from both zerg and terran usualy so that not unfair )
but why in number 2 zerg got advantage ? that because of queen inject and the better macro system they give , the zerg can remake one army the fastest in the game , while protoss and terran take more time .
( here we add dropship thor drop harass or marine drop , or both , some time this make the terran come back in the game... but good zerg realy know that coming , what else they can do anyway they think in smilling ?! )
the next push the terran try the zerg now got infestor and with some good use completly destroy the terran army .
in the metagame now people say : OMG this zerg used some crazy micro skill so that the reason he win this fight ,he played well , while this noob terran deserve to be killed for just trying to abuse the terran race .
when the terran win any fight i have say before , zerg will cry IMBALANCE , NERF TERRAN ( using cap make it cooler , right ?! anyway we all love to get one bully no ? so we picked terran )
now the terran players play t v z and see all that and think... OMG , they can do that and win tournament and money ?! , i can too ! okay time to play zerg too .
but the new zerg user got one pretty much hard matchup too , z v p , at high level that pretty hard .
warning : this reply come from after loss over many many many pratice game since the last patch vs good zerg and im curently angry and drunk i probably dont think what i have write and im sorry in advance .
( btw that not zerg players fault either the game like that , everyone do the best they can with what they got , dont hate people for using abusive strategie , good players play for money and will use any mean possible to win, that and what blizzard feal like to nerf or buff from listening to the more vocal fansbase race .
the bully aka one noob terran .
im not totaly ignoring you because you write bad in english or because you can pretty much reply nothing to this post if you are not lying to yourself .
On October 25 2010 10:01 kojinshugi wrote: EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
Isn't it common wisdom that "It's designed that T has to stop Z to get base ahead?" If the T can't stop it, he's already losing.
Then what is to stop the T from also taking another base so as to equalise?
Did you not see HopeTorture FE hold off Protoss super aggressive 4 gate push?
In any case, this thread is about TLO switching his main race, so in that sense, best of luck to him.
On October 25 2010 10:25 Oddysay wrote: terran are by far the worst race curently at the higher level , that not because they are bad , but protoss and zerg pretty much figured out how good terran play and what they will do + what they can do + the heavy nerfing since many many patch make the terran the bully race .
for exemple in t v z , you can open 1 suply 1 baract ( something else ? lol ? ) , the zerg fast exp , pretty much nothing the terran can do here
Stopped reading here. Clearly, you've never tried the Reaper/Marine bunker rush.
On October 25 2010 10:01 kojinshugi wrote: EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
Isn't it common wisdom that "It's designed that T has to stop Z to get base ahead?" If the T can't stop it, he's already losing.
Then what is to stop the T from also taking another base so as to equalise?
Did you not see HopeTorture FE hold off Protoss super aggressive 4 gate push?
In any case, this thread is about TLO switching his main race, so in that sense, best of luck to him.
because terran got hard time to take third safely...but honestly... you realy want more macro fest ?
you dont think they are something wrong when one race can be greedy and mass exp and the only option the other race got = timing push ?
did you not see tiny toon when he was litle and owned the turtle ( my off topic good ? )
im switching the talk to protoss balance ?!
sorry for talk about race balance when someone who played terran , switch to one other race , btw what we should talk about in one topic about someone switching ? ho sorry , grats TLO good luck with zerg ?! im fealing like a douche for talk about balance in terran vs zerg here now .
On October 25 2010 09:04 cuppatea wrote: The game was being dominated by Terran to an absurd extent. There have been nearly 100 tournament wins by Terran players since the game was released and around 10 for Zerg. It had become the norm to see 5 or 6 Terran in the top 8 of nearly every tournament, while seeing more than 1 Zerg at that stage was a rarity. The game was in dire need of patching.
A lot of Terrans won't do as well in 1.12 as they did previously, but the truth is they should have never been enjoying such great success in the first place. Morrow, who by his own admission wasn't practicing a lot, should never have been outperforming Dimaga by such a huge margin. Silver should never have been 2-0'ing Idra. Players like Check, Zenio, Darkforce, Slush etc should never have been getting stomped every time they came up against a top Terran in their region.
Have Terran been nerfed too hard? It's too early to say. We've seen 4 high level LAN tournaments since 1.12 was released (MLG DC and Blizzcon in the US and both DSRack tournaments in Europe) and there was a Terran in the final of all of them. Maybe they'll be shown to be underpowered in the coming weeks but there's absolutely nothing to back those claims up right now.
Well said, I agree. T is definitely not weak at the moment and those saying it is need to realize maybe they're just not good.
Did you like it when Zerg was obviously UP in the early game, and when ever a Zerg commented on it they would get told that it's because they suck? You'r statement is very ignorant as most of the imbalanced feelings Terrans get are from late game with higher level players, not noobs... Thats the entire point, and even high level Zergs admitted a long time ago that all they need to do is survive the early harass and then everything swings in their favor. Now you have a Zerg that doesn't have to worry about much harass and can dominate all game long. The only games I win against Zerg are with thor timing pushes and I am a macro player, I hate knowing that I need to win the game early or not at all.
I don't care too much about this, just because i have faith in david kim (he said the freaking truth about pro's feedback, too bad they take 2vs2 into consideration and killed the reaper ). And blizzard sometimes do this FoTM things just to keep happy some population while they try to balance it.
So just give it some time. I like how zerg is suppossed to beat us on macro, that's how it should be, but they shouldn't be able to get midgame intact if they are not better than the Terran. And that is what's happening now imho (like i said, imho, because a lot of zergs will say that's because zerg players are the awesomesauce compared to T players).
But hey, as i said before, only time will tell. A lot of terrans were telling Zerg l2p like tards when we have the advantadge on that matchup , so who the fucks care about this kind of discussion when everybody is totally biased. And yeah, i play terran, and yeah, i won some better zerg players than me on 1.0 just because of matchup balance. :p
On October 25 2010 10:25 Oddysay wrote: terran are by far the worst race curently at the higher level , that not because they are bad , but protoss and zerg pretty much figured out how good terran play and what they will do + what they can do + the heavy nerfing since many many patch make the terran the bully race .
for exemple in t v z , you can open 1 suply 1 baract ( something else ? lol ? ) , the zerg fast exp , pretty much nothing the terran can do here
Stopped reading here. Clearly, you've never tried the Reaper/Marine bunker rush.
what this reaper marine bunker rush push you talk about ? and why no good players or player who win tournament and money dont use it everytime ?!
but i stoped reading right here , clearly you never tried 15 fast exp , zergling with speed , speed zergling vs slow reaper look so yummy or the fact zerg can make zergling or baneling , im sorry , you see im just a noob playing terran .
can you show me one replay of the reaper marine bunker rush ( just the name sound imbalanced , im adding , reaper marine bunker rush nuke for sound better)
so any replay of this build everyone should know and use
btw , working more that one lucky game vs one good players ?
Its funny how many terrans are whining right now. I saw that one coming alot of pretty bad players were doing good in tournaments and ladder when terran was super obviously too strong. Now that they are on par or maybe only a little bit too good alot of players will wake up and think something is wrong :p
I think the first game could have happened to anyone. The fact that they both FE'd at close positions on Lost Temple is kind of mind boggling though.
The second game shows a lot of interesting play out of both guys, and I'm sorry if you don't like my casting style, but at least you get a glimpse of TLO's uncasted Zerg play from Blizzcon. =P
On October 25 2010 09:04 cuppatea wrote: The game was being dominated by Terran to an absurd extent. There have been nearly 100 tournament wins by Terran players since the game was released and around 10 for Zerg. It had become the norm to see 5 or 6 Terran in the top 8 of nearly every tournament, while seeing more than 1 Zerg at that stage was a rarity. The game was in dire need of patching.
A lot of Terrans won't do as well in 1.12 as they did previously, but the truth is they should have never been enjoying such great success in the first place. Morrow, who by his own admission wasn't practicing a lot, should never have been outperforming Dimaga by such a huge margin. Silver should never have been 2-0'ing Idra. Players like Check, Zenio, Darkforce, Slush etc should never have been getting stomped every time they came up against a top Terran in their region.
Have Terran been nerfed too hard? It's too early to say. We've seen 4 high level LAN tournaments since 1.12 was released (MLG DC and Blizzcon in the US and both DSRack tournaments in Europe) and there was a Terran in the final of all of them. Maybe they'll be shown to be underpowered in the coming weeks but there's absolutely nothing to back those claims up right now.
One of the most important things that needs to be done to balance a game is having early game counters. THE reason reapers were so op against zerg was highlighted in the Morrow/IdrA series *Even* if the zerg opponent knew exactly what was coming, there was no hard counter. So, when two players of near equal skill (I'll be generous to Morrow here), the player who chose terran would win an unacceptable amount of the time.
I am not saying the 14/15 build is as op as reapers. I get it, zergs were screwed for a long time and reapers made mediocre terrans think they were good. I am saying, there is no hard counter for zerg's early expand followed by map control on most maps. If you believe two wrongs don't make a right, you don't support the current state of affairs. If you love the game more than you love winning, then you don't think "are they nerfing me" you think "is this fair?"
That being said, most people blindly support their race, much like they blindly support their political party, regardless of any introduction of evidence to the contrary. There are a lot of people who love the validation from winning, even illegitimately, more than they love the idea of a fair contest.
On October 25 2010 10:01 kojinshugi wrote: EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
Isn't it common wisdom that "It's designed that T has to stop Z to get base ahead?" If the T can't stop it, he's already losing.
A fast reaper can still punish a pure FE from zerg. Dunno why people think reapers are useless. There have been plenty of games since the patch where reaper have been effective at either destroying a FE or forcing so many units they lose any eco adv, letting a terran expo off a bunker.
I honestly feel terran will be fine once they adjust. I think this is one of those patches where we will see multiple meta-shifts without a single patch change and independent of maps.
On October 25 2010 11:05 TheDna wrote: Its funny how many terrans are whining right now. I saw that one coming alot of pretty bad players were doing good in tournaments and ladder when terran was super obviously too strong. Now that they are on par or maybe only a little bit too good alot of players will wake up and think something is wrong :p
clearly no matter what when someone win with terran they are just lucky and bad ,in fact every terran dont deserve any win , the only reason noob terran user have win before was because of the imbalanced game .
right now we are on par with the other race and we loss , but the game clearly state when you pick terran out of the 3 race , you are a noob and are stupid .
superior being play zerg and protoss .
TLDR: when you pick terran = you become a noob , this work like that :
win:
terran : lucky noob , abusing race , we are not normal people when we pick terran , we become stupid
protoss : good players , well played
zerg : Crazy baneling + infestor micro skill , superior being .
You can twist and turn my words as you want but it doesn't change what i wrote ^^ I saw a lot of terrans doing a lot of mistakes and still ending up winning most of the games.. Now it's still sometimes like that. But not as obvious anymore. I never said every T is a noob or anything like that..
On October 25 2010 10:01 kojinshugi wrote: EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
Isn't it common wisdom that "It's designed that T has to stop Z to get base ahead?" If the T can't stop it, he's already losing.
A fast reaper can still punish a pure FE from zerg. Dunno why people think reapers are useless. There have been plenty of games since the patch where reaper have been effective at either destroying a FE or forcing so many units they lose any eco adv, letting a terran expo off a bunker.
I honestly feel terran will be fine once they adjust. I think this is one of those patches where we will see multiple meta-shifts without a single patch change and independent of maps.
you realy think reaper with no speed upgrade vs speed zergling work good ? , and he got 2 queen btw
you want to know the only reason reaper work sometime ? the zerg dont event make some zergling because everyone know no one use reaper anymore and they suck now , no zerg expect them so they can work one time in 100 game , when they see one that like see one fast battle cruiser lol , yeah this can work , but you get the point ? .
dunno why you say reaper are still one unit in this game .
On October 25 2010 11:21 TheDna wrote: You can twist and turn my words as you want but it doesn't change what i wrote ^^ I saw a lot of terrans doing a lot of mistakes and still ending up winning most of the games.. Now it's still sometimes like that. But not as obvious anymore. I never said every T is a noob or anything like that..
terran player cant do any mistake for deserve to win ? i was being sarcastic about the every t = noob, . was not trying to twist what you say but why terran people should deserve less to win ?
many protoss and zerg can do alot of mistake but no one blame them , and when they win people say they played good . now when that someone terran he got lucky and abused the race , you dont think that something wrong here ?
btw im playing zerg / protoss / terran right now but more with terran
edit : sorry was lying , im terran and playing terran , but im realy trying to be fair and dont think about my race here , was saying that im playing other race so people dont think im just whining .
why we cant be honest seriously
i realy love starcraft and want this game balanced , i know sometime terran only win because of powerfull unit but the same kind of unit are in other race too .
templar with storm , colosus , baneling , ultralisk for exemple .
I m saying i saw terrans doing 5 if not 10 times the mistakes other players did and still winning the games. Its not that bad anymore, but terran is still the most mistake tolerable race around. And i think in a few weeks or month we will need another little patch about that..
On October 25 2010 11:58 riptide wrote: I apologise for the two users above. They seem to have mistaken TL for one of the hundreds of other shitty forums on the Internet.
wow yea I was going to ask for something to be done about the above post, thanks for the timely response. On topic, I an so happy tlo is back to zerg. His play in the beta is what made me choose zerg in the first place. And to all of those posts about balance, there are so many other threads for that, lets discuss the topic at hand. I always thought he was more aligned to zerg play and I understand the frustration that drove him to choose terran, but in so happy he's back. And even of his decision was based somewhat on the patch notes, big deal. This is his job, of course he's going to take his opportunity for success into account, doing otherwise would be foolish.
I'm just looking forward to seeing some more TLO innovation!
Actually, any chance that picture could be removed? Its distracting and inappropriate.
On October 25 2010 10:01 kojinshugi wrote: EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
Isn't it common wisdom that "It's designed that T has to stop Z to get base ahead?" If the T can't stop it, he's already losing.
Then what is to stop the T from also taking another base so as to equalise?
Did you not see HopeTorture FE hold off Protoss super aggressive 4 gate push?
In any case, this thread is about TLO switching his main race, so in that sense, best of luck to him.
because terran got hard time to take third safely...but honestly... you realy want more macro fest ?
you dont think they are something wrong when one race can be greedy and mass exp and the only option the other race got = timing push ?
did you not see tiny toon when he was litle and owned the turtle ( my off topic good ? )
im switching the talk to protoss balance ?!
sorry for talk about race balance when someone who played terran , switch to one other race , btw what we should talk about in one topic about someone switching ? ho sorry , grats TLO good luck with zerg ?! im fealing like a douche for talk about balance in terran vs zerg here now .
Difficult third expo? Ever heard of planetary fortress?
As for protoss talk, my point of FE vs. Protoss was to show the effectiveness of a proper Terran FE since comparing the early pushes vs. Z or P, the P has the more deadly push.
On October 25 2010 10:01 kojinshugi wrote: EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
Isn't it common wisdom that "It's designed that T has to stop Z to get base ahead?" If the T can't stop it, he's already losing.
I'm not sure how your point differs from my point.
On October 25 2010 11:58 riptide wrote: I apologise for the two users above. They seem to have mistaken TL for one of the hundreds of other shitty forums on the Internet.
i love tlo but i dont think he will fare well in korea for a while....he spent months perfect his terran and now he's switching? its gonna take him months to learn zerg and he's already far well behind the rest.
why would it take months to learn zerg when you already know all the hotkeys and general play style? I am not a great player, but pretty good for how much i actually play and I can easily pick up any race because of the many many years of playing sc.
I'm not surprised that TLO switched. But I think blizzard will make another balance change, favoring Terran. So even tho I understand that TLO's favorite units are not effective since the patch, I believe these units will be effective soon enough.
Boxer emailed David Kim regarding the latest patch and how it has essentially broken traditional Terran gameplay. Here is what Slayer_Boxer and fruitseller said during Blizzcon:
Q: How do you view the recent patches? Boxer: I'm very weird, in every patch it's the units I love to use that are nerfed. Before, I liked to use tanks, and now they are nerfed. I also liked 3rax, but that strategy was nerfed. More unsettling is that not only was Terran nerfed, Zerg was buffed. I spent two hours writing a letter to David Kim (dayvie). Every time, the new patches are hard to adjust to, so I hope in the future the changes aren't cataclysmic. Fruitdealer: In terms of Zerg, aside from defense, right now playing is more comfortable due to less early problems. But it seems that the special aspects of SC2 have been decreasing. Even though I'm doing well, other players might consider it bad.
Q: Have you (Fruitdealer) written to Blizzard before? Fruitdealer: I haven't, but Check and David Kim (dayvie) are familiar with each other. I saw Check send a lot of emails to David Kim. It's possible he's part of the reason Zerg has been getting buffs.
Q: And you, Boxer? Boxer: Every time a certain Zerg sends emails to Blizzard, it's always reps in which they lose. I think we Terrans should unite as well and send some losing reps.
Ive always thought he was a better Zerg player than Terran. His use of infestors are ommmm! But as a T...I feel that I have lost something inside of me...
On October 25 2010 09:55 Raiznhell wrote: Not totally derailing you though it is too early to tell if this patch makes Zerg completely broken or not but in those SlayerSBoxeR vs Fruitseller games it "appears" that there was very little boxer could do to win as Zergs macro potential and unit effectiveness vs Terrans is just devastating and there was no way for BoxeR to take and hold a third in either game because of the ease Zerg can take map control simply by surviving Terran attempts to punish a FE.
Yup, Boxer played those games quite well but there was little he could do. Hopefully, Blizzard analyzes the Fruitdealer vs Boxer matches at Blizzcon and rebalance the game accordingly.
On October 25 2010 09:55 Raiznhell wrote: Not totally derailing you though it is too early to tell if this patch makes Zerg completely broken or not but in those SlayerSBoxeR vs Fruitseller games it "appears" that there was very little boxer could do to win as Zergs macro potential and unit effectiveness vs Terrans is just devastating and there was no way for BoxeR to take and hold a third in either game because of the ease Zerg can take map control simply by surviving Terran attempts to punish a FE.
Yup, Boxer played those games quite well but there was little he could do. Hopefully, Blizzard analyzes the Fruitdealer vs Boxer matches at Blizzcon and rebalance the game accordingly.
I wouldn't say zerg are completely broken, the recent patch made ZvZ and ZvP much more enjoyable and balanced. If anything zerg was completely broken before the last patch. ZvT is very hard for the terran now because they will find it nigh impossible to end the game within 15 minutes against a good zerg, which is what terran players are accustomed to.
Time will tell if terran players will adapt to this, and if not they may need to be given more of an incentive to play macro games.
Glad to hear about TLO playing zerg though, I really enjoyed watching him play when he used to random.
I don't see how playing Zerg is going to help TLO. Zerg is by far the most macro-orientated race, and TLO can't play a macro game for the life of him...
can anyone show me a replay of TLO going rax b4 depo? or going 5 rax reaper? Dont think he was known for doing those strats that were nerfed ... zerg being buffed on the other hand might make them more attractive
just finished watching TLO vs Sen and i quite liked the 2nd game - not as one-sided as it could have been considering Sen has alot more practice as zerg.
its also funny, when all terrans complain about being so weak in macro games, but never even consider making their 3rd command center into an orbital instead of a PF (well its OP so i have to make it, dont i? its what ppl do!). it might be harder to defend your 3rd that way but you would also have ... how would day9 say ... more stuff
On October 25 2010 18:04 foxmeep wrote: I don't see how playing Zerg is going to help TLO. Zerg is by far the most macro-orientated race, and TLO can't play a macro game for the life of him...
Maybe this will improve his macro play overall then.
On October 25 2010 08:19 Choirdrunk wrote: I'm not sure this is a classic balance decision with regards to TLO switching.
TLO is known to prefer innovative builds. He doesn't just want to rely on out microing or out macroing players. He wants to out-think players before the battle even begins.
With the barracks' new requirement, and the necessity of the barracks for any relevant strategy, terrans are now reliant on more predictable builds. Zerg provides TLO with more flexibility.
That being said, zerg is also just really powerful in a progamer's hands right now. Blizzard granted the race the ability to expand at will, maintain map control and then nerfed terrans ability to harass (reapers + reaper speed + barracks requirement) so that zerg can comfortably expand early with one basic harass option (hellions) that they KNOW they will be preparing for. Banshees are gimmicky and not game effective since you'll be on one base and the damage you'll do will not compensate for the advantages zerg accrues from the second base. The most recent shoutcast on HDstarcraft's channel shows a ZvT where the T launched an incredibly successful hellion harass that roasted more than a dozen drones only to be even in economy within a minute.
So, as of now, terran can't assault early. If it gets to the late game, they are done. Terrans are trying to find a narrow timing window they can exploit. The reason we're seeing all these early thor pushes. Oh well, I guess its zerg's time in the sun.
1stly, good luck TLO! i've seen your random plays from back in the beta,and i loved your ability to play more than 1 race. i think you've made the right choice to change into Zerg because of how the recent patches have been affecting the game.
very long post i've quoted, but very well said. right now terrans with the lack of opener cheese to keep other players honest, also has their entire harass early game options removed. you may think "oh only reapers are made useless", but have you thought about how the early reapers being removed leaves only 2 other harass? the hellion harass = a must,a given and essential. the follow up air harass is optional.
so terrans are now a totally predictable race. the enemy will know exactly what are you doing and be expecting it as there is no longer any surprise involved. End game, no race is as good as the Zerg due to their superior macro mechanics and ability to replenish an entire army.
Against protoss, once HTs are up, the entire terran army(except mech) has been effectively neutralised due to nearly every terran unit(except Thor & Tanks) either A) having mana or B) low hp. and they can replenish their gateway units very quickly with warpgates & chronoboosts.
Terrans aren't playing other races. their playing against time. If they cannot end the game fast and it gets to endgame,their at a severe disadvantage due to how the production of armies work.if i cant end the game now,im screwed.
On October 25 2010 18:10 Ao_Jun wrote: There should be a strategy forum for people above 1500 diamond and people below.
And maybe one for "pro's" at like 2200+ or invites or something..
This thread is so insanely filled with junk and people claiming that "Then you can do that to this and that will do that. - INSTANT WIN!"
At my level, patch seems ok so far. (I have a positive record vs zergs) Give it a few months.
Don't kill me for mentioning the "W" word, but WoW had arenajunkies where only people with high arena ratings could post in certain forums. It's not just the fact that the thread can easily get filled with junk, but people complaining about zerg changes and screaming "OP" when they have no valid argument as to why they assume such case. Which usually ends up getting the random person the banhammer.
On October 25 2010 14:44 shynee wrote: I'm not surprised that TLO switched. But I think blizzard will make another balance change, favoring Terran. So even tho I understand that TLO's favorite units are not effective since the patch, I believe these units will be effective soon enough.
Boxer emailed David Kim regarding the latest patch and how it has essentially broken traditional Terran gameplay. Here is what Slayer_Boxer and fruitseller said during Blizzcon:
Q: How do you view the recent patches? Boxer: I'm very weird, in every patch it's the units I love to use that are nerfed. Before, I liked to use tanks, and now they are nerfed. I also liked 3rax, but that strategy was nerfed. More unsettling is that not only was Terran nerfed, Zerg was buffed. I spent two hours writing a letter to David Kim (dayvie). Every time, the new patches are hard to adjust to, so I hope in the future the changes aren't cataclysmic. Fruitdealer: In terms of Zerg, aside from defense, right now playing is more comfortable due to less early problems. But it seems that the special aspects of SC2 have been decreasing. Even though I'm doing well, other players might consider it bad.
Q: Have you (Fruitdealer) written to Blizzard before? Fruitdealer: I haven't, but Check and David Kim (dayvie) are familiar with each other. I saw Check send a lot of emails to David Kim. It's possible he's part of the reason Zerg has been getting buffs.
Q: And you, Boxer? Boxer: Every time a certain Zerg sends emails to Blizzard, it's always reps in which they lose. I think we Terrans should unite as well and send some losing reps.
Well, that kind of makes Boxer sound like a sore loser, especially the last part. I can't be the only one thinking it.
On October 25 2010 18:10 Ao_Jun wrote: There should be a strategy forum for people above 1500 diamond and people below.
And maybe one for "pro's" at like 2200+ or invites or something..
This thread is so insanely filled with junk and people claiming that "Then you can do that to this and that will do that. - INSTANT WIN!"
At my level, patch seems ok so far. (I have a positive record vs zergs) Give it a few months.
At this point id be totally fine if TL became just a news site without anyone posting that isnt either an administrator or the highest level of players. Any time i read anything its pages of total BS that i can barely stand not taking the bait. Seriously, i do not know TLO. I dont know his decisions in his mind. I dont know if he picked Zerg for X or Y reason. I dont know if his changing races coincides with the patch, or he was already wanting to change for personal reasons. I dont even know if he actually fully decided on Terran in the first place. All of these things and many more make me STFU before posting things like "i cant respect someone who cant pick a race and stick with it".
TBH i dont even really give a shit if the game is balanced or not. I guarantee almost everyone whining about balance needs a ton of work in all areas of their personal play that have nothing to do with racial balance.
On October 25 2010 18:10 Ao_Jun wrote: There should be a strategy forum for people above 1500 diamond and people below.
And maybe one for "pro's" at like 2200+ or invites or something..
This thread is so insanely filled with junk and people claiming that "Then you can do that to this and that will do that. - INSTANT WIN!"
At my level, patch seems ok so far. (I have a positive record vs zergs) Give it a few months.
It's irrelevant that you have a positive record vs zerg. The problem is how you win. TvT, TvP, ZvZ, PvP are all resonably even throughout all stages of the game, ZvT and also ZvP are heavily biased towards Zerg in lategame because of the speed at which Zerg can rebuild armies.
On October 25 2010 14:44 shynee wrote: I'm not surprised that TLO switched. But I think blizzard will make another balance change, favoring Terran. So even tho I understand that TLO's favorite units are not effective since the patch, I believe these units will be effective soon enough.
Boxer emailed David Kim regarding the latest patch and how it has essentially broken traditional Terran gameplay. Here is what Slayer_Boxer and fruitseller said during Blizzcon:
Q: How do you view the recent patches? Boxer: I'm very weird, in every patch it's the units I love to use that are nerfed. Before, I liked to use tanks, and now they are nerfed. I also liked 3rax, but that strategy was nerfed. More unsettling is that not only was Terran nerfed, Zerg was buffed. I spent two hours writing a letter to David Kim (dayvie). Every time, the new patches are hard to adjust to, so I hope in the future the changes aren't cataclysmic. Fruitdealer: In terms of Zerg, aside from defense, right now playing is more comfortable due to less early problems. But it seems that the special aspects of SC2 have been decreasing. Even though I'm doing well, other players might consider it bad.
Q: Have you (Fruitdealer) written to Blizzard before? Fruitdealer: I haven't, but Check and David Kim (dayvie) are familiar with each other. I saw Check send a lot of emails to David Kim. It's possible he's part of the reason Zerg has been getting buffs.
Q: And you, Boxer? Boxer: Every time a certain Zerg sends emails to Blizzard, it's always reps in which they lose. I think we Terrans should unite as well and send some losing reps.
Well, that kind of makes Boxer sound like a sore loser, especially the last part. I can't be the only one thinking it.
This feels like it's been a long time coming actually, I think it has a little to do with the patch, but TLO is the master of infestors and generally plays a really good zerg so i'm very happy about this.
Here is the thing. TLO likes to hide things. He then likes to show it and often do something else. I think Zerg allows him to be much more sneaky. Also, I think infestor is the unit most abusable by TLO in the game.
Although I must admit I'm tired of zergs whom don't go roach warren getting wtf pwnd because of timing attacks etc etc. From what I've seen if you don't go roach warren or banelingz nest before tanks could be out, you are dead 70% of the time. Hopefully TLO can show us some creative zergness.
Although I'm a bit disappointed that he keeps switching races, I am very excited and looking forward to the new strategy or builds he'll come up with. He's such a creative player. Definitely have high expectations of him.
On October 25 2010 23:04 Antisocialmunky wrote: Can you random in the GSL?
Pretty sure you can, I remember reading in the qualifier threads for GSL 2 that garimto was playing random. I think the rule is that they must stay random if they start random.
Nice switch but he's playing craptastic right now.
He has just qualified the second time to GSL which is on its own a great achievment...lol Guys make up your mind, TLO is still brilliant, but he is in another ambiente in Korea, where everyone is a bit more brilliant .
TLO was all the time before GSL not a Terran only user, if he was allowed he played ZvT instead of TvT.
@PrinceXizor
I really love ure play, but its gettin kinda odd to see u play mouse only without hotkeys, might be okay for a month but its kinda dumb to stay like this and never use your full potential.
On October 25 2010 23:04 Antisocialmunky wrote: Can you random in the GSL?
Pretty sure you can, I remember reading in the qualifier threads for GSL 2 that garimto was playing random. I think the rule is that they must stay random if they start random.
On October 25 2010 23:04 Antisocialmunky wrote: Can you random in the GSL?
Pretty sure you can, I remember reading in the qualifier threads for GSL 2 that garimto was playing random. I think the rule is that they must stay random if they start random.
On October 25 2010 14:44 shynee wrote: I'm not surprised that TLO switched. But I think blizzard will make another balance change, favoring Terran. So even tho I understand that TLO's favorite units are not effective since the patch, I believe these units will be effective soon enough.
Boxer emailed David Kim regarding the latest patch and how it has essentially broken traditional Terran gameplay. Here is what Slayer_Boxer and fruitseller said during Blizzcon:
Q: How do you view the recent patches? Boxer: I'm very weird, in every patch it's the units I love to use that are nerfed. Before, I liked to use tanks, and now they are nerfed. I also liked 3rax, but that strategy was nerfed. More unsettling is that not only was Terran nerfed, Zerg was buffed. I spent two hours writing a letter to David Kim (dayvie). Every time, the new patches are hard to adjust to, so I hope in the future the changes aren't cataclysmic. Fruitdealer: In terms of Zerg, aside from defense, right now playing is more comfortable due to less early problems. But it seems that the special aspects of SC2 have been decreasing. Even though I'm doing well, other players might consider it bad.
Q: Have you (Fruitdealer) written to Blizzard before? Fruitdealer: I haven't, but Check and David Kim (dayvie) are familiar with each other. I saw Check send a lot of emails to David Kim. It's possible he's part of the reason Zerg has been getting buffs.
Q: And you, Boxer? Boxer: Every time a certain Zerg sends emails to Blizzard, it's always reps in which they lose. I think we Terrans should unite as well and send some losing reps.
hahaha this best reply in the whole topic here and no one reply , they talk about barby 2 page from this one , way to dont be honest when someone like boxer and fruitseller talk like that !
BOXER SAY SO ?! we should unite and help buff terran too !
what happen exactly ? good race representative take time to show the game imbalance for their race , they can also play bad on purpose for show something ingame , you think these guy are stupid and cant bring the game to where they want ? using the unit they want ? .
the same way we need a army for protect the human race federation , zerg are curently the best at this mind game. zerg buff prove that .
when one zerg soldier die in the battlefront , before the game end or event before the game he will try to show how overpowered the other race are , save the replay and send it to blizzard . minion after make topic over the whole internet , they work under the overmind... dont trust them !
protoss got ????? but he dont whine alot and protoss are pretty much staying the same. ( put idra playing toss , and im sure toss zealot would be flying and shooting yamato canon now , that a joke of course , but that so people get the point )
in some way , event if you did not know before the most angry vocal pro gamer help you and your race at the game , you hate someone who buff ur unit ? .
now terran need to unite , when you win the game and the other guy ask :
WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE VS THAT ? ( what he mean : your X unit are overpowered and they are nothing i could have done )
so find something cool to say , or say something he did not do, never never say : i dont know .
some exemple :
terran : you have upgraded attack and armor the whole game.. he did not , if he loss and say what i should have done vs that ?! : tell him : you need to upgrade , closed .
and no matter the race that alway good to say : you need to exp more
when terran loss vs colosus you reply : make viking ( both good player know that the protoss dont make only colosus and that before he die he killed for 2000++ worth of money and got stalker for kill the viking and he can micro / pull back the colosus... but say it anyway , make more viking !!! )
understand the mind game terran need to play too for win ?
when zerg loss z v p because of colosus you reply.....i seriously dont know this one lol , most protoss dont know either ( but dont tell anyone protoss players , find something he did wrong or tell him to exp more! ) .
On October 25 2010 18:13 Mithhaike wrote: Terrans aren't playing other races. their playing against time. If they cannot end the game fast and it gets to endgame,their at a severe disadvantage due to how the production of armies work.if i cant end the game now,im screwed.
This is just false, and aggravated by the fact that Terrans are doing too much 1basing 3/1/1 all-in pushes saying "Gotta kill him before end-game or I'm dead". Good Terrans have started using the MULEs additional income to FE and slam several additional raxes, making T's macro that much smoother.
OBVIOUSLY if you one-base (or even 2bases with 4-5 production buildings) and get crushed, you'll never be able to rebuild an army fast enough out of 4-5 buildings whereas the zerg you just assaulted has 3-4 hatches with queens going at it, which is the equivalent of 6-8 terran production facilities.
T units are also ridiculously cost-effective, even at tier1. They don't have anything to envy from P and Z. In a 200 vs 200 supply fight, Terran will more often than not come way ahead over a zerg unless 1)the Terran has horrible unit composition or 2) the zerg is FruitDealer and is dropping banelings all over your face.
On October 25 2010 18:05 Marb wrote: can anyone show me a replay of TLO going rax b4 depo? or going 5 rax reaper? Dont think he was known for doing those strats that were nerfed ... zerg being buffed on the other hand might make them more attractive
just finished watching TLO vs Sen and i quite liked the 2nd game - not as one-sided as it could have been considering Sen has alot more practice as zerg.
its also funny, when all terrans complain about being so weak in macro games, but never even consider making their 3rd command center into an orbital instead of a PF (well its OP so i have to make it, dont i? its what ppl do!). it might be harder to defend your 3rd that way but you would also have ... how would day9 say ... more stuff
Gotta love these three post non-Terran players give advice to Terrans. "Oh, hey guys, have you maybe considered making unit X or building Y. I mean, I'm a gold level zerg which means I know way more about starcraft than any terran ever could." Do you really, REALLY think an oribital on a THIRD base is the issue? Forget the fact that our armies are immobile and we can't defend our expansions as readily as zerg (nydus + creep + production facility at every hatchery) or toss (pylons) and, if we have a third base, both players have units roaming the field separate from the main army. Just forget about how irrational that is. You really believe that terrans are like 600 minerals away from being on par late game?
The reason you don't see the pros, or amateurs, doing it often is not because they didn't think of it Einstein. The reason a legend like Boxer takes the time to write about balance after this last patch and urge a united Terran front is because blizzard went overboard (jesus, reading this sentence, I realize how far I've come). Yeah, yeah ... reapers sucked and were op. Unfair to zergs. I agreed at the time too. But the solution to forming a good game isn't "make terran awful for a while."
And the problem with the nerfs for TLO wasn't the cheesy strat stuff. With rax after depot, terran has zero flexibility early game if we want any economy. We're going to end up with a worse economy anyway, but, if we want ANY, our first 15 food is standard. TLO is a creative dude. He doesn't like having the opponent know more or less exactly what he'll be doing for the first 3 minutes of a game without even scouting. Zerg grants TLO more flexibility. Which, for a creative player, is essential.
It's great that you're watching Day9. He's a superstar. Now, for your next lesson, move past quoting him out of context and actually start trying to think about the game in a way ... how would day9 say ... isn't myopic, arrogant and rookie.
I was very disappointed when TLO chose Terran as his race. I normally think Zerg is incredibly boring to watch, but his Infestor play always made me giggle and cheer out loud. I'm thrilled he's thrown his lot in with the swarm
On October 26 2010 06:37 Bub wrote: People switching races because it's a little stronger >_> well whatever, as long as he entertains us, I don't care.
I think he always favored Zerg but chose Terran because they were the strongest at the time. SC2 is, amazingly, still in its infant stage. Let people change alll they want.
On October 26 2010 06:46 Kennigit wrote: Kennigit: " so i closed that thread and told everyone they were idiots for saying you were switching to zerg" TLO: "but i am switching to zerg"
Who am i supposed to learn innovative and effective Terrans strats from now... *sigh*. Oh well TLO is still my favorite pro player, even if he switched sides on me. TLO FIGHTING!!
On October 26 2010 08:21 YouGotNothin wrote: Who am i supposed to learn innovative and effective Terrans strats from now... *sigh*. Oh well TLO is still my favorite pro player, even if he switched sides on me. TLO FIGHTING!!
BoxeR? NaDa?
if anything there is more than enough great terran players around
It's cool that he's still open to changing race and not getting stuck in his ways...but I don't understand the comments by people saying that TLO "was always better suited to zerg". Terran has by far the most potential for harassment...and that is, or at least was a hallmark of TLO's play. It's cool that he's switched but I never thought he matched the archetypal zerg style of play in the least.
On October 26 2010 08:21 YouGotNothin wrote: Who am i supposed to learn innovative and effective Terrans strats from now... *sigh*. Oh well TLO is still my favorite pro player, even if he switched sides on me. TLO FIGHTING!!
BoxeR? NaDa?
if anything there is more than enough great terran players around
Nada is the opposite of innovative, he just does basic and effective strategies with perfect precision and mechanics. Not saying he can't of course, but that's just not his forte.
On October 26 2010 06:46 Kennigit wrote: Kennigit: " so i closed that thread and told everyone they were idiots for saying you were switching to zerg" TLO: "but i am switching to zerg"
On October 26 2010 06:46 Kennigit wrote: Kennigit: " so i closed that thread and told everyone they were idiots for saying you were switching to zerg" TLO: "but i am switching to zerg"
Oops ^_^;;;;
That's pretty epic. Somehow everything TLO is involved in is awesome.
On October 26 2010 06:46 Kennigit wrote: Kennigit: " so i closed that thread and told everyone they were idiots for saying you were switching to zerg" TLO: "but i am switching to zerg"
Oops ^_^;;;;
Yah, how dare you question my first hand knowledge...
On October 26 2010 06:46 Kennigit wrote: Kennigit: " so i closed that thread and told everyone they were idiots for saying you were switching to zerg" TLO: "but i am switching to zerg"
On October 26 2010 06:46 Kennigit wrote: Kennigit: " so i closed that thread and told everyone they were idiots for saying you were switching to zerg" TLO: "but i am switching to zerg"
Oops ^_^;;;;
We still love you even if you can't keep track of the TL players.
On October 25 2010 08:19 Choirdrunk wrote: I'm not sure this is a classic balance decision with regards to TLO switching.
TLO is known to prefer innovative builds. He doesn't just want to rely on out microing or out macroing players. He wants to out-think players before the battle even begins.
With the barracks' new requirement, and the necessity of the barracks for any relevant strategy, terrans are now reliant on more predictable builds. Zerg provides TLO with more flexibility.
That being said, zerg is also just really powerful in a progamer's hands right now. Blizzard granted the race the ability to expand at will, maintain map control and then nerfed terrans ability to harass (reapers + reaper speed + barracks requirement) so that zerg can comfortably expand early with one basic harass option (hellions) that they KNOW they will be preparing for. Banshees are gimmicky and not game effective since you'll be on one base and the damage you'll do will not compensate for the advantages zerg accrues from the second base. The most recent shoutcast on HDstarcraft's channel shows a ZvT where the T launched an incredibly successful hellion harass that roasted more than a dozen drones only to be even in economy within a minute.
So, as of now, terran can't assault early. If it gets to the late game, they are done. Terrans are trying to find a narrow timing window they can exploit. The reason we're seeing all these early thor pushes. Oh well, I guess its zerg's time in the sun.
1stly, good luck TLO! i've seen your random plays from back in the beta,and i loved your ability to play more than 1 race. i think you've made the right choice to change into Zerg because of how the recent patches have been affecting the game.
very long post i've quoted, but very well said. right now terrans with the lack of opener cheese to keep other players honest, also has their entire harass early game options removed. you may think "oh only reapers are made useless", but have you thought about how the early reapers being removed leaves only 2 other harass? the hellion harass = a must,a given and essential. the follow up air harass is optional.
so terrans are now a totally predictable race. the enemy will know exactly what are you doing and be expecting it as there is no longer any surprise involved. End game, no race is as good as the Zerg due to their superior macro mechanics and ability to replenish an entire army.
Against protoss, once HTs are up, the entire terran army(except mech) has been effectively neutralised due to nearly every terran unit(except Thor & Tanks) either A) having mana or B) low hp. and they can replenish their gateway units very quickly with warpgates & chronoboosts.
Terrans aren't playing other races. their playing against time. If they cannot end the game fast and it gets to endgame,their at a severe disadvantage due to how the production of armies work.if i cant end the game now,im screwed.
Yup, that's true. It's actually a safe pick to play Zerg at the top pro level. You can easily survive against any early Terran harassment with the extra range for roaches and the nerf to reapers. This means that top Zerg pros can easily FE and there is no risk of FE. Once the game is extended, it becomes more and more advantageous for zerg players.
I don't know the exact reasons why TLO picked Zerg, but I'm sure some of the balance changes had something to do with it. Personally, if I were a Pro and my salary/winnings is at stake, I would switch too. TLO needs to put food on the table and pay for his rent - he should pick the race that gives him the best chance to win, as should any Pro, which is probably Zerg at this moment.
I would like to switch to zerg as well, but I don't want to get rofl stomped on the ladder until I go all the way down to bronze. I think TLO switched for the wrong reasons. He switched because Zerg is being heavily favored by Blizz and Terran is being owned.
On October 26 2010 13:20 A.J. wrote: I would like to switch to zerg as well, but I don't want to get rofl stomped on the ladder until I go all the way down to bronze. I think TLO switched for the wrong reasons. He switched because Zerg is being heavily favored by Blizz and Terran is being owned.
I agree with you that Zerg is heavily favoured, but if you're a Pro, you kind of have to switch races because it's more than pride on the line - it's sponsors, salary, tournament money, etc, that you depend on to survive. Having said that, I wish Blizzard doesn't swing the pendulum so furiously each time they rebalance - they should go with smaller changes because it's not Beta anymore and some people depend on SC2 to make a living.
On October 26 2010 13:20 A.J. wrote: I would like to switch to zerg as well, but I don't want to get rofl stomped on the ladder until I go all the way down to bronze. I think TLO switched for the wrong reasons. He switched because Zerg is being heavily favored by Blizz and Terran is being owned.
It takes a substantial amount of time to return to pro level after switching races, especially when that race is zerg. You need a lot of practice to keep track of spawn larva, spreading creep, and learn how to balance drones vs. units well. TLO will already be much better than the majority of people after a short time, but honing his skills to reach the very top will take longer.
This early in the game, balance will fluctuate as Blizzard keeps putting out patches. No progamer switches races lightly, as you're guaranteed a dip in performance. By the time TLO has recovered, it's likely enough that either the metagame will have evolved to deal with the patch changes (and balance the races out) or Blizzard will have started to nerf zerg.
I doubt TLO is so shortsighted as to play FOTM. If he's switching to Zerg, it's probably permanent and because he feels it fits his playstyle better. Now is probably the smoothest time to switch, when the other two races haven't yet figured out how to deal with the changes.
On October 26 2010 06:46 Kennigit wrote: Kennigit: " so i closed that thread and told everyone they were idiots for saying you were switching to zerg" TLO: "but i am switching to zerg"
Oops ^_^;;;;
We still love you even if you can't keep track of the TL players.
Kenningit, I am sure when Heosat told everyone TLO was switching to zerg in another thread a few days ago was accurate xD
On October 26 2010 13:20 A.J. wrote: I would like to switch to zerg as well, but I don't want to get rofl stomped on the ladder until I go all the way down to bronze. I think TLO switched for the wrong reasons. He switched because Zerg is being heavily favored by Blizz and Terran is being owned.
I actually switched to Zerg myself. I was 1800 diamond terran, bought a new acct and started zerg from scratch. I purposely lost all 5 placement matches to get placed in bronze to "climb the ladder". After 1 day and around 30 games, I'm in plat league with the zerg account now and playing decent number of diamond ppl, will prob be promoted to diamond tomorrow or the next day.
So far I enjoy Zerg much more and am having a lot more fun. Harassing with mutas, have great map vision / control, have all your units very fast and easy to micro on creep, and most of all the macro and late-game ownage
Biggest thing that turned me off from Terran was it turned into a gimmicky race of timing pushes which if you couldn't hit you were pretty much out to dry late game against zerg and toss.
Also a big part of me abandoning Terran is Master Trump's unexpected hiatus from playing / streaming - he made playing Terran so fun!
/shrug just my 2 copper...obvi im no where near level of TLO, but I can kinda feel him on why he perhaps made the switch.
I like the non-combat style of TLO as zerg. Like researching drop and speed for OL for the single purpose of flying a queen around to drop creep tumours. Other then that, I feel he's far above avarage, but still has some to climb to reach the top.
On October 26 2010 13:20 A.J. wrote: I would like to switch to zerg as well, but I don't want to get rofl stomped on the ladder until I go all the way down to bronze. I think TLO switched for the wrong reasons. He switched because Zerg is being heavily favored by Blizz and Terran is being owned.
Yeah totally agree. He is a fair weather player.
What the fuck does that even mean?
If he's good at two races, Zerg and Terran, why should he not use the one that's better suited to his playstyle at any given time?
You're acting like he renounced his citizenship or something. If Zerg is truly overpowered like you insist, then two equally skilled players meeting will always result in a Zerg win.
I understand that this sort of knee-jerk tribalism is kind of ingrained in us, but for the love of god have some proportion. Progamers aren't required to act as effigies in the little racial balance passion plays we all seem to love so much.
If terran actually proves to need buffs now, i would expect that T gets buffs in macro games. Would be really horrible for game if T stayed this Cheesy/Gimicky/timing rush/all-in race.
On October 26 2010 19:05 Gotmog wrote: If terran actually proves to need buffs now, i would expect that T gets buffs in macro games. Would be really horrible for game if T stayed this Cheesy/Gimicky/timing rush/all-in race.
True. I play terran myself, but removing all this gimicky stuff was a good move by blizzard. Mass reapers into a somewhat early expansion never felt like palying terran. Neither did proxy baracks nor roach kiting with hellions.
And terran macro doesnt need to be buffed imho. Just give terran decent lategame options. The Tank and battlecruiser nerfs were too early in my opinion. Tanks were awesome in tvz (they are still ok'ish), but the main reason for T>Z pre 1.1.2 was the lack of save openers for zerg due to all that early harass. Some kind of harass followed by a tank + X timing atack was easy to perform and very deadly.
The balance went this way:
1. "Mhm, tvz is screwed, zerg doesnt stand a chance. Lets nerf mech!" (didnt work in tvz, but made mech in tvp nearly impossible)
2. "still screwed, lets remove/nerf every single early pressure build terran has in tvz" (tvz early game is fine, lategame screwed both in tvp and tvz)
TLO used to be a random player, but his protoss was always pretty weak.
Then, like a lot of terrans, he discovered the massive amount of abuse terrans could do with a vast array of openings. Therefore he improved his terran much more because he wants to win.
However, TLO was always a pretty awesome zerg. It was only the overpoweredness of terran that led to him using it. I fully believe he will remain a top Terran/Zerg player. I don't consider this a significant change of races.
While I think that its a bit of a pity that he switched right before blizzcon and subsequently failed (although against the two arguably best non-korean zerg minus idra), I'm looking forward to see what he can pull of with this race. Still a bit torn however as I really liked his terrain play. Does anyone know whether his slump on the Korean ladder stems from his switch? He went from 2100 to like 1800 in a couple of days.
On October 27 2010 01:33 Lightspeed wrote: While I think that its a bit of a pity that he switched right before blizzcon and subsequently failed (although against the two arguably best non-korean zerg minus idra), I'm looking forward to see what he can pull of with this race. Still a bit torn however as I really liked his terrain play. Does anyone know whether his slump on the Korean ladder stems from his switch? He went from 2100 to like 1800 in a couple of days.
On October 27 2010 01:33 Lightspeed wrote: While I think that its a bit of a pity that he switched right before blizzcon and subsequently failed (although against the two arguably best non-korean zerg minus idra), I'm looking forward to see what he can pull of with this race. Still a bit torn however as I really liked his terrain play. Does anyone know whether his slump on the Korean ladder stems from his switch? He went from 2100 to like 1800 in a couple of days.
He was playing Terran when that slump occurred.
Oh I see. Well, he seems to be back to laddering now, so I anticipate him to climb up fast again
On October 26 2010 12:33 StarcraftMan wrote: Yup, that's true. It's actually a safe pick to play Zerg at the top pro level. You can easily survive against any early Terran harassment with the extra range for roaches and the nerf to reapers. This means that top Zerg pros can easily FE and there is no risk of FE. Once the game is extended, it becomes more and more advantageous for zerg players.
Obviously you've never played against any competent terran...
For instance on most of the maps, hellion drops are an absolute nightmare for a zerg. There is no way of shutting them off effectively and even if you litter your base with roaches, they can usually whack around 10-15 drones before dying. All the while the terran makes marine/marauders and a-moves to victory...
Rushing to mutas doesn't work because A) you have to zero most unit production until them, leaving you totally free to attack and B) even if you manage to invest heavily enough in mutas to blast the T drops, by that time he'll have enough marines/thors to one-shot your entire group...
Most turtling terrans usually try MMM then go into mech; At which point the only way for a zerg to not risk an instant gg is to tech to broodlords as fast as possible, make 10-15 lords and only corruptors after that.
On October 26 2010 12:33 StarcraftMan wrote: Yup, that's true. It's actually a safe pick to play Zerg at the top pro level. You can easily survive against any early Terran harassment with the extra range for roaches and the nerf to reapers. This means that top Zerg pros can easily FE and there is no risk of FE. Once the game is extended, it becomes more and more advantageous for zerg players.
Obviously you've never played against any competent terran...
For instance on most of the maps, hellion drops are an absolute nightmare for a zerg. There is no way of shutting them off effectively and even if you litter your base with roaches, they can usually whack around 10-15 drones before dying. All the while the terran makes marine/marauders and a-moves to victory...
Rushing to mutas doesn't work because A) you have to zero most unit production until them, leaving you totally free to attack and B) even if you manage to invest heavily enough in mutas to blast the T drops, by that time he'll have enough marines/thors to one-shot your entire group...
Most turtling terrans usually try MMM then go into mech; At which point the only way for a zerg to not risk an instant gg is to tech to broodlords as fast as possible, make 10-15 lords and only corruptors after that.
obviously you're nowhere near being competent either
On October 26 2010 12:33 StarcraftMan wrote: Yup, that's true. It's actually a safe pick to play Zerg at the top pro level. You can easily survive against any early Terran harassment with the extra range for roaches and the nerf to reapers. This means that top Zerg pros can easily FE and there is no risk of FE. Once the game is extended, it becomes more and more advantageous for zerg players.
Obviously you've never played against any competent terran...
For instance on most of the maps, hellion drops are an absolute nightmare for a zerg. There is no way of shutting them off effectively and even if you litter your base with roaches, they can usually whack around 10-15 drones before dying. All the while the terran makes marine/marauders and a-moves to victory...
Rushing to mutas doesn't work because A) you have to zero most unit production until them, leaving you totally free to attack and B) even if you manage to invest heavily enough in mutas to blast the T drops, by that time he'll have enough marines/thors to one-shot your entire group...
Most turtling terrans usually try MMM then go into mech; At which point the only way for a zerg to not risk an instant gg is to tech to broodlords as fast as possible, make 10-15 lords and only corruptors after that.
obviously you're nowhere near being competent either
yeah, Zerg should have map control and full awareness for quite a while, try placing overlords around the outskirts of your base to see when a dropship is coming around.
On October 26 2010 12:33 StarcraftMan wrote: Yup, that's true. It's actually a safe pick to play Zerg at the top pro level. You can easily survive against any early Terran harassment with the extra range for roaches and the nerf to reapers. This means that top Zerg pros can easily FE and there is no risk of FE. Once the game is extended, it becomes more and more advantageous for zerg players.
Obviously you've never played against any competent terran...
For instance on most of the maps, hellion drops are an absolute nightmare for a zerg. There is no way of shutting them off effectively and even if you litter your base with roaches, they can usually whack around 10-15 drones before dying. All the while the terran makes marine/marauders and a-moves to victory...
Rushing to mutas doesn't work because A) you have to zero most unit production until them, leaving you totally free to attack and B) even if you manage to invest heavily enough in mutas to blast the T drops, by that time he'll have enough marines/thors to one-shot your entire group...
Most turtling terrans usually try MMM then go into mech; At which point the only way for a zerg to not risk an instant gg is to tech to broodlords as fast as possible, make 10-15 lords and only corruptors after that.
No this isn't true.
Watch some high level replays. Midgame and Lategame Zerg has plenty of power behind it. 10-15 is crazy overkill. What kind of games are you playing? Brood Lords are surprisingly useless right now. That may change of course.
On October 25 2010 18:10 Ao_Jun wrote: There should be a strategy forum for people above 1500 diamond and people below.
And maybe one for "pro's" at like 2200+ or invites or something..
This thread is so insanely filled with junk and people claiming that "Then you can do that to this and that will do that. - INSTANT WIN!"
At my level, patch seems ok so far. (I have a positive record vs zergs) Give it a few months.
At this point id be totally fine if TL became just a news site without anyone posting that isnt either an administrator or the highest level of players. Any time i read anything its pages of total BS that i can barely stand not taking the bait. Seriously, i do not know TLO. I dont know his decisions in his mind. I dont know if he picked Zerg for X or Y reason. I dont know if his changing races coincides with the patch, or he was already wanting to change for personal reasons. I dont even know if he actually fully decided on Terran in the first place. All of these things and many more make me STFU before posting things like "i cant respect someone who cant pick a race and stick with it".
TBH i dont even really give a shit if the game is balanced or not. I guarantee almost everyone whining about balance needs a ton of work in all areas of their personal play that have nothing to do with racial balance.
If you don't know anything and don't care about anything as you mentioned repeatedly, whey did you bother to waste yours and other people's time by posting it?
On October 27 2010 08:03 DooMDash wrote: Sad face. I wanted TLO to be a Terran player. Another one bites the dust I guess. Boxer and Nada saying they might switch as well... weak.
On October 27 2010 05:57 SmoKim wrote: LiquidTLO playing against NesTea(Zergbong) ZvZ
possible the best ZvZ i've seen so far, holy shit!!!
While that game is very good, it wouldn't fly in, say, like 90% of ZvZ that are happening in diamond right now.
With all the reformed terrans it's pretty much a one base "get your queen and then make only zerglings a-move".
You simply don't have the time nor the money to make up for it in roaches. Even if you rush straight for roaches you'll have 5 or 6 out when he'll storm your base with 30+ lings. Also forget getting any fast expand against one of these horrible 6 minutes games players because it cripples you so much early that it's an instant win for the other guy.
On October 26 2010 12:33 StarcraftMan wrote: Yup, that's true. It's actually a safe pick to play Zerg at the top pro level. You can easily survive against any early Terran harassment with the extra range for roaches and the nerf to reapers. This means that top Zerg pros can easily FE and there is no risk of FE. Once the game is extended, it becomes more and more advantageous for zerg players.
Obviously you've never played against any competent terran...
For instance on most of the maps, hellion drops are an absolute nightmare for a zerg. There is no way of shutting them off effectively and even if you litter your base with roaches, they can usually whack around 10-15 drones before dying. All the while the terran makes marine/marauders and a-moves to victory...
Rushing to mutas doesn't work because A) you have to zero most unit production until them, leaving you totally free to attack and B) even if you manage to invest heavily enough in mutas to blast the T drops, by that time he'll have enough marines/thors to one-shot your entire group...
Most turtling terrans usually try MMM then go into mech; At which point the only way for a zerg to not risk an instant gg is to tech to broodlords as fast as possible, make 10-15 lords and only corruptors after that.
Oh yeah, and it's just so easy for a Terran to "A-move" to a win. You also should know that you don't engage a Marine/Thor ball with muta, there lies the problem. The Muat are for harassing the Terran and keeping them from expanding or moving out safely without risking total destruction in their base, the Blings are the main fighting force combined with even Roaches and Infesters to deal significant damage to anything to Terran throws at you. It's the combination of these that makes it so deadly not one or the other.
On October 26 2010 12:33 StarcraftMan wrote: Yup, that's true. It's actually a safe pick to play Zerg at the top pro level. You can easily survive against any early Terran harassment with the extra range for roaches and the nerf to reapers. This means that top Zerg pros can easily FE and there is no risk of FE. Once the game is extended, it becomes more and more advantageous for zerg players.
Obviously you've never played against any competent terran...
For instance on most of the maps, hellion drops are an absolute nightmare for a zerg. There is no way of shutting them off effectively and even if you litter your base with roaches, they can usually whack around 10-15 drones before dying. All the while the terran makes marine/marauders and a-moves to victory...
Rushing to mutas doesn't work because A) you have to zero most unit production until them, leaving you totally free to attack and B) even if you manage to invest heavily enough in mutas to blast the T drops, by that time he'll have enough marines/thors to one-shot your entire group...
Most turtling terrans usually try MMM then go into mech; At which point the only way for a zerg to not risk an instant gg is to tech to broodlords as fast as possible, make 10-15 lords and only corruptors after that.
No this isn't true.
Watch some high level replays. Midgame and Lategame Zerg has plenty of power behind it.
Yup. I agree that mid game and late game favors Zerg at the moment. I expect Fruitdealer to use this strategy for the remainder of the GSL and he shouldn't drop a single game against any top Terran player.
On October 26 2010 12:33 StarcraftMan wrote: Yup, that's true. It's actually a safe pick to play Zerg at the top pro level. You can easily survive against any early Terran harassment with the extra range for roaches and the nerf to reapers. This means that top Zerg pros can easily FE and there is no risk of FE. Once the game is extended, it becomes more and more advantageous for zerg players.
Obviously you've never played against any competent terran...
For instance on most of the maps, hellion drops are an absolute nightmare for a zerg. There is no way of shutting them off effectively and even if you litter your base with roaches, they can usually whack around 10-15 drones before dying. All the while the terran makes marine/marauders and a-moves to victory...
Rushing to mutas doesn't work because A) you have to zero most unit production until them, leaving you totally free to attack and B) even if you manage to invest heavily enough in mutas to blast the T drops, by that time he'll have enough marines/thors to one-shot your entire group...
Most turtling terrans usually try MMM then go into mech; At which point the only way for a zerg to not risk an instant gg is to tech to broodlords as fast as possible, make 10-15 lords and only corruptors after that.
No this isn't true.
Watch some high level replays. Midgame and Lategame Zerg has plenty of power behind it. 10-15 is crazy overkill. What kind of games are you playing? Brood Lords are surprisingly useless right now. That may change of course.
oGsTheWind v MakaPrime, Game 1, in the GSL yesterday. Excellent use of Brood Lords. They're far from useless.
possible the best ZvZ i've seen so far, holy shit!!!
Maybe a lot of you don't know that programers don't care that much about the out come of ladder games. They just practice their game mechanics there. When it comes down to strategies, they keep the development within the teams they belong to. Actually Zenio's games demonstrates this clearly. If you look at what he was doing, you'd find out that he was just auto-cruising on the standard 14 hatch/pool opening. Pay attention to the first spine crawler he build. He didn't need that unit at that exact moment. He had an overlord in TLO's base and saw TLO didn't have anything to attack him. My guess is that he built it anyway because it's in the standard build. It would be useful against some sort of an early harrassment that a terran may do. For example early hellion play. His 2nd and 3rd spine clawers were reactionary when he say TLO made an army. His muta play is just the standard continuation with that opening.
What I am trying to say is that while Zenio was just practicing, TLO probably played to win since his build wont work against either a terran or a protoss. This reminds me what Idra said about people who would do anything to win on ladder games on NA servers while Korean high level players just ladder to practice game mechanics. Actually TLO's build doens't work that well even against a zerg. Go watch TLO's Blizzcon games. He used the same unit combo against Sen and Dimaga. He lost pretty badly, especially the first game against Dimaga.
We keep seeing leaked TLO winning ladder games with commentators hyping him up (remember his winning games against Boxer?). And when it comes to tournament, you'll see him getting destroyed. This is really bothersome. I'll be a TLO fan when he starts to win in tournaments and people start to lead winning ladder games against him.
On October 24 2010 22:41 meRz wrote: TLO switches due to Zerg being FOTM. No one cares.
Any other Player switches due to Zerg being FOTM -> Shit storm & Flame war.
Just an interesting thing to note.
Harsh comment but I agree... First TLO is like Terran suits me best. Then he comments "all zerg player whining about balance is childish" (on playxp) then gets pissed off that his race can't do 30 different opening and switches to zerg. Uhm, what?
Sorry if I'm getting this wrong, but that's what I am seeing =|
1.) you are likely wrong 2.) TLO played zerg on the side throughout the "zerg is up phase". He even did a day9 daily on how to over run mech play as zerg, abusing immobility etc etc.
Who cares what he plays? He could swap around every week, as long as he's entertaining us with his creative builds, unique play-styles, and top-notch games.
I wanted to note that the above games were posted mid thread (10-20 area?) by Heosat. He stated they were practice matches played back in Sept, as he was trying to convince people that TLO has been thinking about the switch for awhile -- it wasn't just an off the cuff reaction to the patch.
And honestly, I believe that being a fan doesn't always have to correlate to the person winning. Obviously you want them to win, and they do need to win, but I rather follow my dad's line of thinking. He has been a fan of the San Francisco 49ers since he was a kid growing up in the 60s/70s, and despite their looooong losing streak he has remained true to them. Thick and thin, through ridicule at work and painful seasons, he has stayed with them. They're his team.
True, football and SC are very different, but I like watching TLO play. I don't think he's the most well rounded player out there, and I think there's a lot of areas where he can improve, but he has made me a fan and I am not going to jump ship on him that easily. He might disappoint me every now and again, but it would take something drastic (cheating or the like) for me to stop being a fan.
To me, if you jump on the bandwagon just because someone is winning a lot, and then jump off when they lose, you are not really a fan. You just like them because they are/were capable of winning matches. Maybe, hmmm. . .opportunistic? (on a side note, why is it bad when people change what race they play? I'm not trying to attack anyone here -- I genuinely don't understand that viewpoint, especially when it is based on unverified hearsay)
Anyways, good luck to you TLO. Practice well, learn from your mistakes, and show us what you got. I'll be here rooting for you.
On October 27 2010 13:20 littlewisp wrote: (on a side note, why is it bad when people change what race they play? I'm not trying to attack anyone here -- I genuinely don't understand that viewpoint, especially when it is based on unverified hearsay)
I would have had no problems with TLO if only he wasn't one of the many Terrans going "Zerg are fine, ZvT is balanced" pre-patch. The fact that he said that and is now switching races after the patch bothers me. Sure, from an e-sports standpoint he's just doing what he needs to do in order to win as much as he can. But my opinion of him is still lessened.
That said, I'm still going to watch all his games. He's fun to watch.
On October 27 2010 13:20 littlewisp wrote: (on a side note, why is it bad when people change what race they play? I'm not trying to attack anyone here -- I genuinely don't understand that viewpoint, especially when it is based on unverified hearsay)
I would have had no problems with TLO if only he wasn't one of the many Terrans going "Zerg are fine, ZvT is balanced" pre-patch. The fact that he said that and is now switching races after the patch bothers me. Sure, from an e-sports standpoint he's just doing what he needs to do in order to win as much as he can. But my opinion of him is still lessened.
That said, I'm still going to watch all his games. He's fun to watch.
It has nothing to do with balance. TLO just suddenly realized that he liked playing Zerg more. It's just a coincidence both patch and race switch came same week..
I dont think this is a reflection of balance in a shape way or form. So the people who say that its because Zerg is OP, just save it.
TLO played zerg for a majority of the beta. Incontrol also stated in the "State of The Game' podcast that he has offraced with zerg alot at the progamming house.
People don''t only switch because of balance, sometimes races just fit them better. And Maybe TLO realized that.
Welcome to the Swarm TLO, glad to have you back =D
I remember his zerg games during the beta and although he definitely was great as terran, it definitely always felt like zerg was his natural race to me when watching him. I believe he stuck to T because at the time, there really was barely any viable options for zerg and it was just too frustrating, and he enjoyed T as well anyway.
But well, probably got a bit bored of T's options getting nerfed while Z's growing and Z feeling more natural to him.. tada
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote: I switched because I have self respect.
We played UEF in SupCom. That builds enough race change karma to last a lifetime.
I don't see what the fuss is people can play a game anyway they want. Besides when money is on the line it's play to win. No one gives you grief about doing something that makes you better at your place of employment. Dario's employment is Pro gaming.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote: I switched because I have self respect.
We played UEF in SupCom. That builds enough race change karma to last a lifetime.
I don't see what the fuss is people can play a game anyway they want. Besides when money is on the line it's play to win. No one gives you grief about doing something that makes you better at your place of employment. Dario's employment is Pro gaming.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote: I switched because I have self respect.
Any particular reason to why you switched? I know you played Random during beta and came up with some very innovative strategies and also played some very awesome games. I'm just curious to why you're switching from Terran to Zerg? Is it the macro mechanics, do they suit you better or like them more; or is it the units Zerg has to offer? Being very mobile and having strength in numbers. Just curious :D. TLO fighting and best of luck in GSL 3!
This is terrible news. Terran lacks good strategies right now, and is in need of more pro players figuring out how to overcome limitations imposed not only by the recent patches, but also by innovative strategies by pro Zerg players.
This is going to deal a huge blow to Terran play in SC2.
Now, before you Zerg or Protoss players say "Yes! That's awesome!", I want you to think. It is actually not a good thing at all.
Personally, as Terran, I think either about switching to Protoss or Zerg, or quitting SC2 altogether until the current state of the game is changed.
On October 28 2010 21:19 Strajder wrote: This is terrible news. Terran lacks good strategies right now, and is in need of more pro players figuring out how to overcome limitations imposed not only by the recent patches, but also by innovative strategies by pro Zerg players.
This is going to deal a huge blow to Terran play in SC2.
Now, before you Zerg or Protoss players say "Yes! That's awesome!", I want you to think. It is actually not a good thing at all.
Personally, as Terran, I think either about switching to Protoss or Zerg, or quitting SC2 altogether until the current state of the game is changed.
On October 28 2010 21:30 eksert wrote: Nada and boxer has chosen terran and didnt switch to anything.. i suppose it's the player, who makes difference not race..
Of course it's the player. But you can't compare TLO with NaDa and Boxer. There is a hell of a gap in Skill between them. As more the Koean Pros will play you will see this.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote: I switched because I have self respect.
I may be the only moron here but I don't get this. Does he mean he thinks T is OP, UP or something else? I'm confused.
It's a joke, a reference to Idra's trashtalk against Drewbie back when Terran were OP against zerg. I think one of either HD or Husky casted the game if you want to see it.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote: I switched because I have self respect.
I may be the only moron here but I don't get this. Does he mean he thinks T is OP, UP or something else? I'm confused.
It's a joke, a reference to Idra's trashtalk against Drewbie back when Terran were OP against zerg. I think one of either HD or Husky casted the game if you want to see it.
Oh yeah I remember, I watched that game. Haha I guess?
On October 28 2010 21:30 eksert wrote: Nada and boxer has chosen terran and didnt switch to anything.. i suppose it's the player, who makes difference not race..
Of course it's the player. But you can't compare TLO with NaDa and Boxer. There is a hell of a gap in Skill between them. As more the Koean Pros will play you will see this.
If you watched some replays, I've only seen TLO winning vs both.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote: I switched because I have self respect.
I may be the only moron here but I don't get this. Does he mean he thinks T is OP, UP or something else? I'm confused.
It's a joke, a reference to Idra's trashtalk against Drewbie back when Terran were OP against zerg. I think one of either HD or Husky casted the game if you want to see it.
Oh yeah I remember, I watched that game. Haha I guess?
More specifically, Idra said in that game "I wouldn't play Terran cuz I have self respect"
I have always loved TLO as a player ever since i first saw him in a husky cast. He isnt affraid to try new, innovative and unorthodox stuff and had shown me that you dont need to be stuck to the popular builds all the time to be sucessfull, that you CAN do things different. I have not seen his zerg play all too often but I am impressed from the stuff i have seen and will look forward to how he may mutate the swarms strategy.
I hope he still does some terran once in a while so we still keep seeing crazy terran strats from him too =P.
On October 28 2010 21:30 eksert wrote: Nada and boxer has chosen terran and didnt switch to anything.. i suppose it's the player, who makes difference not race..
Of course it's the player. But you can't compare TLO with NaDa and Boxer. There is a hell of a gap in Skill between them. As more the Koean Pros will play you will see this.
If you watched some replays, I've only seen TLO winning vs both.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote: I switched because I have self respect.
Switch back to Random for maximum respect!
The Liquid'TLO Random Fandom
I agree, I became an instant fan during beta seeing him play as random. However, I did really enjoy watching his zerg play. I guess, I just really enjoy watching him play. You never know what he will do.
On October 29 2010 01:16 elle05 wrote: I just found a new Vod where TLO is playing ladder as zerg. But it's in german, casted by Take! Maybe you're interested in it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ar-zm6Sxo
Man I was talking about this at #teamliquid just last week when he lost. I am so glad to hear it. I think TLO was better at Z by far. I was really hoping for a random stage there while he was in the down time of the GSL and really show the neat things again about all the races. Not that he dosent do that what the race he is really focusing on, but I would like to see some of the things he comes up with on the side (kinda hoping maybe one day he kicks out a replay pack of him fooling around with all the races)
But no matter what TLO still have a fanboy here, and I cant wait to see him play some Z in the next GSL (dont know if there are any things sooner that he is playing in). TLO FIGHTING!
I remember watching tlo's zerg in early retail or beta not sure. but he had some cool moves with burrowed bane's at the expo then running zerglings into the main when and other flanking moves. He'll probably do just fine as zerg. Don't think he would ever go random as I remember him losing in a toss v toss during hdh tournament pretty badly to whitera twice but that was a while ago.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote I switched because I have self respect.
Switching when Terran was nerfed and Zerg is not the way to state to have more self respect as Zerg.
I think its pathetic.
On Ladder before Patch 1.1 i encountered lots of Terrans. After 1.1 and especially after 1.2 i meets lots of Zergs almost every second game and very few Terrans.
In my opinion its with those people that they are like a flag. Whereever the wind at the moment just comes from they turn this way.
If you really have self respect you stay Terran or for maximum self respect you switch to Random.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote I switched because I have self respect.
Switching when Terran was nerfed and Zerg is not the way to state to have more self respect as Zerg.
I think its pathetic.
On Ladder before Patch 1.1 i encountered lots of Terrans. After 1.1 and especially after 1.2 i meets lots of Zergs almost every second game and very few Terrans.
In my opinion its with those people that they are like a flag. Whereever the wind at the moment just comes from they turn this way.
If you really have self respect you stay Terran or for maximum self respect you switch to Random.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote I switched because I have self respect.
Switching when Terran was nerfed and Zerg is not the way to state to have more self respect as Zerg.
I think its pathetic.
On Ladder before Patch 1.1 i encountered lots of Terrans. After 1.1 and especially after 1.2 i meets lots of Zergs almost every second game and very few Terrans.
In my opinion its with those people that they are like a flag. Whereever the wind at the moment just comes from they turn this way.
If you really have self respect you stay Terran or for maximum self respect you switch to Random.
Aaaannndddd good job missing TLO's not so subtle jab at Idra with that quote... it probably has NOTHING to do with why he switched.
On October 31 2010 01:15 Mothxal wrote: Why on earth is this thread 36 pages long? A player switched races, because he felt another race suited him better. What's there to discuss?
People freak out because they think it means TLO considers Z overpowered, or that he's being shortsighted, or that hes giving up too easily, etc.
The game's only been out a couple of months. It's best for players to try as many different playstyles and find the one that suits them while they still can. Nobody should feel 'pressured' into playing one race, because it will only hurt them in the end.
On October 28 2010 20:00 Liquid`TLO wrote I switched because I have self respect.
Switching when Terran was nerfed and Zerg is not the way to state to have more self respect as Zerg.
I think its pathetic.
On Ladder before Patch 1.1 i encountered lots of Terrans. After 1.1 and especially after 1.2 i meets lots of Zergs almost every second game and very few Terrans.
In my opinion its with those people that they are like a flag. Whereever the wind at the moment just comes from they turn this way.
If you really have self respect you stay Terran or for maximum self respect you switch to Random.
Aaaannndddd good job missing TLO's not so subtle jab at Idra with that quote... it probably has NOTHING to do with why he switched.
Of course TLO should play with the race whch suits him best.
But the timing of his switch is really bad for not questioning if the terran nerf/zerg buff was involved in it
switched to zerg when it was considered up, and now switching back to t . Though my only reason is i want to lose more and fight people around my apm level (not 3x more than me). Though imo zerg already was strongest with version 1.0. Won with terra, switched to zerg won even more switched to toss, won like i was playing terra. Well my hellion micro was awful after a while. And controlling speed lings against hellions was way easier, somehow. Baneling drops also way easier done then other drops. Well it was at a time were zerg would never use something like that, or build alot of spine crawlers+queens with transfure to hold up 4 gate pushs etc.
Right now zergs have become just more confident, and often choose the 14 drones instead of the 28 lings at the begginning. I think this is the biggest change why there are so much zergs right now. Often it ends up beeing unpished to pump out endless amounts of drones.
Well i think of myself of beeing below avg. Though somehow i ended up in diamond with my 30 apm, while my avg opponent has 100. I know its not a good comparsion. Anyway i want version 1 back, before hatcherys are 400 mins or queens 200 mins ^^;
EPT
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