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This makes you wonder what will be the future of Starcraft 2 competitive gaming, especially if you consider the big BW players that have just moved (or is planning to move) to SC2.
What do you think? Is this a preview of what is to come, or is NTT just rage-quitting? :/
(obviously, it should be noted that this might just be a troll from NTT, but it's kind of a harsh troll if so)
I don't think an emotion induced rage quit of sc2 has any baring on whether or not Starcraft 2 and competitive gaming will or will not be successful in the future. Starcraft 2 is a different game, but its fundamentals are incredibly similar to Brood War especially compared to other hit RTS sequels. In that regard Starcraft 2 should mirror the success that Brood War had.
There will always be people who long for "the good ol days" and it seems as if NTT is one of them.
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On October 06 2010 17:39 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 17:25 adeezy wrote:
Lol. not going to lie... brawl was a horrible game. most people agree with that one. And Mango has a special touch
The only god of gaming that dominates no matter what is Daigo in street fighter. Every other champ just has their days of glory. The biggest equivalent is probably nada. Who nows how it will end up./ Well I got warned for being "pompous and arrogant", which is what I accused NTT of, so I'm sure someone likes him and decided to be smart with me. Regardless, I didn't see how I was being arrogant, I was just pointing out the simple fact that this same "the new game in the series is doomed" argument is well pretty much played out. Every single competitive gaming community has said this forever, and big name doom sayers like NTT himself, have been wrong. Brawl is a horrible game in your opinion, but there are more people attending tournaments for it, and it's featured in MLG, and it's doing quite well competitively. The consensus at certain websites is that it is a bad game, but the tournament attendance numbers when compared to it's predecessor prove otherwise. The situation is quite comparable to Starcraft 2 that's why I bring it up, and not because of an attempt to derail the topic.
Brawl is a terrible game and the fact that MLG features it doesnt mean anything as MLG features lots of casual (imo terrible) games.
Brawl was aiming for a casual scene from the start (and by casual I mean I don't think they thought too much about the competitive scene while making it), but Starcraft II is aiming for Esport from the start, thus the situation isnt exactly the same even though there are similarities.
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the game hasn't even been out that long >_>
broodwar wasn't perfect the day it came out right?
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On October 06 2010 17:07 Beyonder wrote:This thread is disgusting. Not because it is posted, I want to read this news, but the reactions are sad. Be happy there is someone with an opinion and be happy you can discuss it. Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 16:57 standalone wrote:
It saddens me that most people opt to criticize his credentials (or lack of in SC2).
His credentials are probably superior to everyone who has questioned his SC2 performance in this thread.
Perhaps you should question his arguments instead. Argue your point of view if you disagree. Basically this. The game is most certainly enjoyable, but a large part of what he says is correct. And knowing his playstyle, I can understand that this game isn't the most fun for him. There's not that much room for crazy innovatism. It's closer to WC3 than we are willing to admit.
the rest of the quotes are NTT's from here
Farewell dear noobs. Enjoy your mbs, your automing, your warp-in, your reactors, your void rays, your stim and your blink. I've had it with the gimmicks and the lack of fundamental RTS gameplay. What a waste of time this has been.
Drama queen out.
How is this an opinion that can be discussed? If anyone had posted that piece of trash here it would have landed in the closed section faster than you can spell NTT.
Let us look at the rest of his comments:
The game is just not demanding enough mechanically. It's just gimmicks upon gimmicks upon gimmicks. Maps are horrendous, balance is non existent, gameplay is straightjacketed, and monkeys can be trained to execute some of these build orders. Micro is easy, macro is easy and games are won or lost based purely on randomly chosen build orders. Time management is non existent because 60 apm means you can do everything with pro-gamer efficiency. From Brood War to this is like going from F1 to a go-kart.
So basically he means that every tournament is based on luck. If anyone else here had stated that Cool won the GSL purely based on luck they would be in disneyland.
I gave the game an honest chance, but it's trash, sorry to say. Gave a bunch of free wins in my last 10 or so games. Might do some more insta f10-n'ing should I feel generous. If anyone poor needs an account, you can have this one as soon as Blizzard allows the free name change.
Is this even worth commenting? Its more banworthy than newsworthy, had it been posted here.
Noobs won't understand my issues with the game because they're noobs, c'est la vie.
Hmm, let me try to recall TL's view on martyrdom and painting any potential critic as a newb...
Sorry if you are going to miss a fellow player and countryman Beyonder, but there is nothing here to give him any credit whatsoever.
And regarding credentials, newbs discuss Flash and Jaedong all day long, what makes him so special? Let's compare him to Nada and see how that works out, both in credentials and how his views are represented. Then again Nada is probably going to redefine what SC2 mechanics are.
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too many noobs in this thread 
anyway, I think he's got a point. When I watch someone like Cella.Werra with his 180 APM or so being a high ranked diamond player one comes to the conclusion that the skill ceiling has indeed to be pretty low.
But maybe the Expansion pack will bring some action
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So basically he means that every tournament is based on luck. If anyone else here had stated that Cool won the GSL purely based on luck they would be in disneyland.
Cool won the GSL because of luck. Not purely because of luck, hes an exceptional RTS player. So saying he won it purely because of luck would be pretty disrespectful. Besides that, theres nothing banworthy about that statement. Go look at his games in the RO8. If that wasn't "luck", I don't know what is.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
^ a lot of people need to read this.
I think people saying, "a lot of pros play sc2 instead of bw so it must be a better game" need to realize that playing bw as a foreigner led to almost no opportunities and very little money/sponsorship because nobody cared about it outside of Korea and playing it at a korean-level was damn near impossible.
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On October 06 2010 17:57 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
So basically he means that every tournament is based on luck. If anyone else here had stated that Cool won the GSL purely based on luck they would be in disneyland.
Cool won the GSL because of luck. Not purely because of luck, hes an exceptional RTS player. So saying he won it purely because of luck would be pretty disrespectful. Besides that, theres nothing banworthy about that statement. Go look at his games in the RO8. If that wasn't "luck", I don't know what is.
The only real luck he had was the 6 pool in that series. 2nd game Inca just played kinda bad/greedy not really sure the right word to use and it costed him the game due to an open front. I wouldn't call that luck cool noticed and reacted to it.
Cool won the GSL because he out played his opponents and played strongly in most of his games. I just don't see the "luck" in that. Was it luck that he 3-0'd his ro4 opponent?
The spoiler spoils the results of the finals I know for some reason some people don't know the results or whatever and rage hard when the results are posted so yeah ^^.
+ Show Spoiler +He also almost 4-1'd ITR I just don't see the "luck" at all for winning the GSL.
Also too note sucks a player like this doesn't like the game while I disagree with his views sounds like he was a really talented player in BW back and all that (I was not around back then in terms of I didn't touch starcraft until June 2009 rofl and boy do I wish I had played it earlier)
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Im not supprised after watching how NTT plays. Gotta be abit boring after 500 games to go PF on your natural with bunkers around it while teching for BC's.
I agree that some units are really gimmicky tho, and doesnt make for fun gameplay. I wish they had never made void ray, even tho i dont see it much.
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On October 06 2010 17:51 PallasAthena wrote:
the game hasn't even been out that long >_>
broodwar wasn't perfect the day it came out right?
you really should stop with that. when BW came out didnt need to be balanced, as nobody cared, it was a game in 98. now in 2010 WoL is an e-sport, people live out of it, there are tens of thousands who care about it in some way beyound actual playing, either playing it competitevly or being fan of someone, being a reporter, caster etc. Tones of money on the line. It needs to be perfect. Or at least it should look like tey are trying to make it that way. As far as i ve seen Blizz, they are trying hard to make a statisic that supprots that the game is good, and ignore every other stats which says it's not, and release every 2 month a patch which modifies something slightly.
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On October 06 2010 17:39 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 17:25 adeezy wrote:
Lol. not going to lie... brawl was a horrible game. most people agree with that one. And Mango has a special touch
The only god of gaming that dominates no matter what is Daigo in street fighter. Every other champ just has their days of glory. The biggest equivalent is probably nada. Who nows how it will end up./ I was just pointing out the simple fact that this same "the new game in the series is doomed" argument is well pretty much played out. Every single competitive gaming community has said this forever, and big name doom sayers like NTT himself, have been wrong.
sometimes the doomsayers are wrong, sure, but that doesn't mean they always are and always will be. what would you call quake 4? unreal tournament 3? unreal tournament 2003? tekken 4?
other games are irrelevant as proof sc2 either can or can not be a reputable esport. only sc2 can speak to that.
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On October 06 2010 17:25 standalone wrote:
I know nothing of this player myself, but from what I have read in this thread, he seems to have had pretty good knowlegde of BW and to have been a pretty good player. To me, that gives his opinion more weight than say, someone I have never heard of. Especially if I don't know about the subject and am thus unable to verify the validity of an opinion by myself.
I would argue that his knowledge of BW actually makes him less qualified to critique SC2 than someone who never played BW, since as a BW player NTT would have certain expectations and such that SC2 is certainly not required to meet. In other words, SC2 is not Brood War. Of course, there are similarities, but if you're expecting everything to be the same as X, why not just stick with X? No reason to throw words like "trash" around.
I've never even heard of NTT (I'm really only familiar with the Korean pro scene), but even his word choice is kind of irritating and pretentious. Gimmicks? Really?
I'm not saying everything in SC2 is awesome, well thought-out, balanced, etc etc. But what I want to stress most is the fact that SC2 is not BW, and that BW wasn't exactly perfect from the beginning either (lolzerg). Just give it some time.
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I was just pointing out the simple fact that this same "the new game in the series is doomed" argument is well pretty much played out. Every single competitive gaming community has said this forever, and big name doom sayers like NTT himself, have been wrong.
Not really. Perhaps you're thinking of WoW. Which is a different story. Generally doom sayers have been right, rare has a truly competitive game become better with a sequel.
As Lachyrmose pointed out.
In the end, CS source is still a fun game with some money in it thought T-T. But I kinda wished SC2 would rival the original.
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Starcraft 2 is dying.+ Show Spoiler +If you gonna warn me or ban me , please do the same for dozens people who spam same crap in BW threads.
User was warned for this post
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On October 06 2010 18:11 .Aar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 17:25 standalone wrote:
I know nothing of this player myself, but from what I have read in this thread, he seems to have had pretty good knowlegde of BW and to have been a pretty good player. To me, that gives his opinion more weight than say, someone I have never heard of. Especially if I don't know about the subject and am thus unable to verify the validity of an opinion by myself. I would argue that his knowledge of BW actually makes him less qualified to critique SC2 than someone who never played BW, since as a BW player NTT would have certain expectations and such that SC2 is certainly not required to meet. In other words, SC2 is not Brood War. Of course, there are similarities, but if you're expecting everything to be the same as X, why not just stick with X? No reason to throw words like "trash" around. I've never even heard of NTT (I'm really only familiar with the Korean pro scene), but even his word choice is kind of irritating and pretentious. Gimmicks? Really? I'm not saying everything in SC2 is awesome, well thought-out, balanced, etc etc. But what I want to stress most is the fact that SC2 is not BW, and that BW wasn't exactly perfect from the beginning either (lolzerg). Just give it some time.
You are absolutely right; BW and SC2 are different games.
But they are both RTS games and they resemble each other a lot. Having good knowlegde of one will help in the other. There are also more general skills that are not specific to the game that a good player may have which could add weight to their opinion.
But by all means, I understand your point.
And yes, I don't like his attitude either. But unfortunately having a bad attitude is not exactly rare in the gaming community.
I agree on your last point as well: Give it time. I think the game is going to change over time as things get tested and discovered.
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I agree on your last point as well: Give it time. I think the game is going to change over time as things get tested and discovered.
Like Phasing?
Like Mineral Boosting?
Like Infestor Burrow Casting?
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On October 06 2010 18:07 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 17:51 PallasAthena wrote:
the game hasn't even been out that long >_>
broodwar wasn't perfect the day it came out right? you really should stop with that. when BW came out didnt need to be balanced, as nobody cared, it was a game in 98. now in 2010 WoL is an e-sport, people live out of it, there are tens of thousands who care about it in some way beyound actual playing, either playing it competitevly or being fan of someone, being a reporter, caster etc. Tones of money on the line. It needs to be perfect. Or at least it should look like tey are trying to make it that way. As far as i ve seen Blizz, they are trying hard to make a statisic that supprots that the game is good, and ignore every other stats which says it's not, and release every 2 month a patch which modifies something slightly.
Just wondering what all these stats are that says the game is not good? The fact that millions of players play and enjoy it every day? the fact that it has sold millions of copies and got impeccable review scores? The fact that people are willing to make a career out of playing it? The fact that, while the game is not perfectly balanced, it's still balanced enough that the 3 major tournaments so far have been won by a Terran, a Protoss and a Zerg respectively? The fact that some of the greatest RTS gamers of all time such as Boxer, NaDa, JulyZerg and Madfrog are actively playing the game competitively?
Where are these overwhelming stats that say the game isn't good?
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maybe if he ever built any units otehr then banshee in vikings in all and every MU he'd see some depth to it.
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Reading through this thread it seems to me that NTT just can't handle change. He can still play BW it hasn't gone anywhere. Critcism is fine. Throwing tantrums and acting like a little baby is not. Doing the same strat every game and refusing to make certain units is laughable. Nothing new here just more of the old who can't evolve getting frustrated that it isn't something that came before. News flash SC2 is a completely different game. It isn't BW and it will never will be.
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i don't get NTT's comments about randomly chosen build orders winning games. the game is new and ppl are still bringing out different BOs, even if they're only slightly altered. also balance changes are going to change build orders, even if not immediately. what is "standard" seems to change in varying degrees every couple of months, and ladder play is going to seem rly random of course since i assume even top tier diamond players decide to try different stuff quite often.
i'm not sure about his comments on gimmicks, either. gimmicks are generally things that aren't standard within a game (or the metagame), and he's listing standard things?
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EPT
