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On September 29 2010 05:06 SugarBear wrote:
Whahuh? Ultras get DESTROYED by marauder/marine mix with medivac support. And a few infernal preigniter hellions can exterminate any number of zerglings. It's absolute RAPE it's so one-sided. It's like playing Jenga where your opponent can choose his own blocks as well as the ones you have to remove. Completely unfair.
Now ultras aren't even effective. Thor/Hellion becomes just another unit composition that requires infestors and tons of micro to scout, position, and cast at the right times so you can overcome your opponent.
Meanwhile terran just has to move out with his hellions, thors, and a handful of scvs on autorepair. What micro is needed for that? You don't even have to lift and replace add-ons in that build. It's a joke.
And that's assuming you scout correctly. What if you go down a completely incorrect tech path, end up with a spire instead of an infestation pit, or an infestation pit and ultra den but no infestors or pathogen glands? It's easy enough to do, terran has so many options with so few buildings that a rax 2fact and a starport could mean anything from hellion/tank drops to marine tank viking to marauder hellion preigniter to all-out mech play.
Bottom line is ultras were designed to hard counter heavy mech units, and that's what they did, but now they are useless at even doing that. And you think that's a good thing? So tell me, would you consider it good if ghost EMP was removed so they couldn't counter infestor/HT anymore? Or if the immortal was changed to only do 20 damage to armored targets? Or if tank splash was changed to hit completely random spots in the target area and possibly missing entirely (cause it's unrealistic that tanks hit their target every time)?
No, that would be stupid, because it interferes with the basic design of each race that gives the game balance. Zerglings can't kill a critical mass of hellions because hellions were designed to hard counter zerglings, just like mass thors used to not be able to kill ultras because ultras were designed to counter heavy mech. Zerglings should not be able to destroy hellions easily, just like thors should not be able to destroy ultras. Yet now that is exactly the situation that has evolved.
I Disagree.
User was warned for this post
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On September 29 2010 05:11 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:06 SugarBear wrote:
Whahuh? Ultras get DESTROYED by marauder/marine mix with medivac support. And a few infernal preigniter hellions can exterminate any number of zerglings. It's absolute RAPE it's so one-sided. It's like playing Jenga where your opponent can choose his own blocks as well as the ones you have to remove. Completely unfair.
Now ultras aren't even effective. Thor/Hellion becomes just another unit composition that requires infestors and tons of micro to scout, position, and cast at the right times so you can overcome your opponent.
Meanwhile terran just has to move out with his hellions, thors, and a handful of scvs on autorepair. What micro is needed for that? You don't even have to lift and replace add-ons in that build. It's a joke.
And that's assuming you scout correctly. What if you go down a completely incorrect tech path, end up with a spire instead of an infestation pit, or an infestation pit and ultra den but no infestors or pathogen glands? It's easy enough to do, terran has so many options with so few buildings that a rax 2fact and a starport could mean anything from hellion/tank drops to marine tank viking to marauder hellion preigniter to all-out mech play.
Bottom line is ultras were designed to hard counter heavy mech units, and that's what they did, but now they are useless at even doing that. And you think that's a good thing? So tell me, would you consider it good if ghost EMP was removed so they couldn't counter infestor/HT anymore? Or if the immortal was changed to only do 20 damage to armored targets? Or if tank splash was changed to hit completely random spots in the target area and possibly missing entirely (cause it's unrealistic that tanks hit their target every time)?
No, that would be stupid, because it interferes with the basic design of each race that gives the game balance. Zerglings can't kill a critical mass of hellions because hellions were designed to hard counter zerglings, just like mass thors used to not be able to kill ultras because ultras were designed to counter heavy mech. Zerglings should not be able to destroy hellions easily, just like thors should not be able to destroy ultras. Yet now that is exactly the situation that has evolved. I Disagree.
Well get on your stream so you can tell me why you disagree 
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Ultralisk are still the strongest unit in the game regardless. (Melee wise) They still do plenty of splash damage and a ultra and bling mix will still rape any composition a terran can put together (Expect for air)
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On September 29 2010 04:47 JJdawes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 04:42 MrCon wrote:
To be honest zerglings are destroying thors already, so the problem isn't really that (unless I'm missing something)
What I find disturbing is that blizz just throws up a significant nerf just like that.
I really though that the ultrabug was ridiculous and couldn't understand how some people could deny it.
Same thing here, how can they nerf that in a bug fix patch ? Don't they test anything ? Zerg needs some buffs, a new unit or a major new thing imo already, and they put a nerf ? I'm really stunned. I hope they'll aknowledge it's a bug and rerefix it.
Ultra with the "bug" is about as balanced as the mule is right now. So I would love to see the Mule "fixed" too.
Thank you for your in depth analysis, we need more posters like you here.
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First they came for the infestors, and I didn't speak up because my micro is terrible.
Then they came for the roaches, and I didn't speak up because I quick lair to mutas.
Then they came for the ultralisks, and I didn't speak up because I lose every game before I can even tech to ultras.
Then they told me that they didn't play zerg because it was too complicated and not fun, and there was no one left to speak up because everyone switched to terran.
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On September 29 2010 04:59 blade55555 wrote:Wow I can't believe that... So they nerfed the Ultra's splash vs Units too? Why? It had nothing to do with that when an Ultra attacks a buildinga ll the scv's die wtf. Sigh now Thors rape Ultra means I have to stop making Ultra  (well zvt anyway hopefully they still work zvp)
Probably they recoded the splash (someone else said it earlier.)
Ultra is the zerg's most powerful weapon. It's already pretty weak in comparison. If they decided for smaller radius, buff their damage at least. If a T pulls out 10 BC's or a P comes up with a grand carrier fleet, it looks ridiculously powerful. 10 Ultras are significantly less intimidating not to mention they can't fly nor shoot yamatos.
Blizzard never understood balancing. I honestly thought they learned from wc3. I hope GSL starts making their own maps so zerg can expand before pool, and have some open areas so that melees have some chance. Also I don't understand why taking a main has no advantage over taking an expo.
I'm not gonna wait a decade for a game to balance out.
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Ultralisks do not get destroyed by marauder/marine ball as long as you fungal it so they can't kite your ultras. Mix in banelings to slaughter marines and some zerglings to be fodder, hydra to take out medivacs and you can win.
Sounds good, and of how many bases are u mining ure gas?
8-9 should be enough to found all of that, but thanks for the advice
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On September 29 2010 05:15 Justifer wrote:
Ultralisk are still the strongest unit in the game regardless. (Melee wise) They still do plenty of splash damage and a ultra and bling mix will still rape any composition a terran can put together (Expect for air)
Strongest melee unit in the game ? No seriously, how many melee units is there ? 3, not couting workers ?
The part about ultra/bling unit mix raping any T come up with is also ridiculous.
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On September 29 2010 05:16 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +Kind of funny that thors, who is mainly used as anti air, is better at ground then zergs highest tech unit that only has melee ground to ground attack and costs the same
dont you think? Just because a Thor beats an Ultralisk 1v1 does not mean that they are better at ground to ground. You are not taking into consideration the facts that Ultralisks do splash damage and Thors vastly overkill (wasted damage) units like zerglings, marines, and workers.
Yes this is true. Ultras are better against smaller units than thors are. My main gripe is that Ultras were the best way to take on a PF without losing half your army thanks to splash and the nigh invulnerability of repair, but now they can't and they lose dps to ground units in the process.
On September 29 2010 05:15 Justifer wrote:
Ultralisk are still the strongest unit in the game regardless. (Melee wise) They still do plenty of splash damage and a ultra and bling mix will still rape any composition a terran can put together (Expect for air)
Well.. yeah... just like thor is the strongest unit in the game with two cannons on each arm. That's a sort of silly thing to say.
Now regarding ultra+bling. If a thor beats an ultra 1 on 1, and masses of thors now can beat masses of ultras pretty easily, why would a baneling help in this matter? Heck, thor + scvs on the inside where they can't be hit with either the ultra splash or baneling splash would completely dominate. I would have said ultra + hydra would be a potent combo.
...on creep
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On September 29 2010 05:18 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +First they came for the infestors, and I didn't speak up because my micro is terrible.
Then they came for the roaches, and I didn't speak up because I quick lair to mutas.
Then they came for the ultralisks, and I didn't speak up because I lose every game before I can even tech to ultras.
Then they told me that they didn't play zerg because it was too complicated and not fun, and there was no one left to speak up because everyone switched to terran. Best first post award 
Hahaha Rofl
The best "First they came" statement I have seen, ever!!
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On September 29 2010 05:11 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:06 SugarBear wrote:
Whahuh? Ultras get DESTROYED by marauder/marine mix with medivac support. And a few infernal preigniter hellions can exterminate any number of zerglings. It's absolute RAPE it's so one-sided. It's like playing Jenga where your opponent can choose his own blocks as well as the ones you have to remove. Completely unfair.
Now ultras aren't even effective. Thor/Hellion becomes just another unit composition that requires infestors and tons of micro to scout, position, and cast at the right times so you can overcome your opponent.
Meanwhile terran just has to move out with his hellions, thors, and a handful of scvs on autorepair. What micro is needed for that? You don't even have to lift and replace add-ons in that build. It's a joke.
And that's assuming you scout correctly. What if you go down a completely incorrect tech path, end up with a spire instead of an infestation pit, or an infestation pit and ultra den but no infestors or pathogen glands? It's easy enough to do, terran has so many options with so few buildings that a rax 2fact and a starport could mean anything from hellion/tank drops to marine tank viking to marauder hellion preigniter to all-out mech play.
Bottom line is ultras were designed to hard counter heavy mech units, and that's what they did, but now they are useless at even doing that. And you think that's a good thing? So tell me, would you consider it good if ghost EMP was removed so they couldn't counter infestor/HT anymore? Or if the immortal was changed to only do 20 damage to armored targets? Or if tank splash was changed to hit completely random spots in the target area and possibly missing entirely (cause it's unrealistic that tanks hit their target every time)?
No, that would be stupid, because it interferes with the basic design of each race that gives the game balance. Zerglings can't kill a critical mass of hellions because hellions were designed to hard counter zerglings, just like mass thors used to not be able to kill ultras because ultras were designed to counter heavy mech. Zerglings should not be able to destroy hellions easily, just like thors should not be able to destroy ultras. Yet now that is exactly the situation that has evolved. I Disagree.
(I'm a 1600 point diamond zerg and this is what I thought about the following post)
I also disagree. Infestors are not a necessity to win games and to claim terran requires no micro is simply stupid. Your examples are also stupid. To say you end up with a spire instead of an infestation pit early game does not matter. You shouldn't be opening early game with Infestors.
Ultras were not designed to hard counter heavy mech and just because there splash damage was reduced does not mean they are still not a hard counter to mech. Ultralisk were designed just like in Starcraft BW to soak up damage. Thats why they have 500 hp and 5 armor. A unit like the ultralisk that has 500 hp splash damage and can hit 15 every second or so is never useless. The point of ultralisk countering thors is you can mass produce them so much quicker. To claim that an Ultralisk which is made out of one production building and can be made out more than one at a time can't be a single unit spawning one at a time is stupid. So don't go around spouting out bs when your clueless about what your talking about. I'm tired of people who are in bronze trying to claim imbalances when they don't even know how to play the game well.
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On September 29 2010 04:36 Moonling wrote:
Have any blue posts responded to this information does anybody know?
Quoting my post in here:
Sorry if I missed anything because I didn't ready all the pages here but in the italian forum a blue post stated that this is intended because:
"The splash damage was propagating not the exact way. Now it works correctly. The damage is the same except against very large units. The chances that this will change the course of a battle are very slim, to be honest."
I think I translated it correctly, sorry for my bad english but since I didn't see any blue post about this in the EU forum (not sure about America) I wanted to share it with u.
So yes, here's the anwser and it's not a good one.
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Typical blizzard tbh. Everyone is telling them that zerg is UP, so they take out the nerf bat and swing right at... the only zerg unit that still does damage.
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not a nerf. splash range is same just from different location. will affect more units to the side. its a meele unit. why should it reach over/through thors? its a meele unit why should the splash be from the center of the target?
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On September 29 2010 05:27 ComaDose wrote:
not a nerf. splash range is same just from different location. will affect more units to the side. its a meele unit. why should it reach over/through thors? its a meele unit why should the splash be from the center of the target?
This is completely false
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On September 29 2010 05:16 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 04:47 JJdawes wrote:On September 29 2010 04:42 MrCon wrote:
To be honest zerglings are destroying thors already, so the problem isn't really that (unless I'm missing something)
What I find disturbing is that blizz just throws up a significant nerf just like that.
I really though that the ultrabug was ridiculous and couldn't understand how some people could deny it.
Same thing here, how can they nerf that in a bug fix patch ? Don't they test anything ? Zerg needs some buffs, a new unit or a major new thing imo already, and they put a nerf ? I'm really stunned. I hope they'll aknowledge it's a bug and rerefix it.
Ultra with the "bug" is about as balanced as the mule is right now. So I would love to see the Mule "fixed" too. Thank you for your in depth analysis, you need more posters like you here.
since in 10x the player you are or will ever be thanks bro
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EPT
