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Baa?21245 Posts
On September 29 2010 05:46 Justifer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:43 Fa1nT wrote:
Ultra are supposed to counter all armored ground units
Ultra are supposed to tank and survive to deal damage
Thors are not supposed to out-DPS them even without a damage type bonus.. And they can hit air, and fly on medivacs >_> Ultralisks can fly in overlords? They still tank and deal damage like there suppose to and now and they still counter armored heavily. Just because they don't have massive splash doesn't mean they dont do any of the things you mentioned
You are not a 1600 Zerg player.
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I felt like the splash on ultras was too sick to begin with, seems like its been brought back to reasonable damage now.
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[quote=justifer]I'm a 1600 point diamond Zerg player and i say its reasonable.[/quote]
Boy I dont get you.
So u think Ultralisk were too strong in 1.0 because of their wide cleave range?
While cleave is like that, since the first beta build... NOW after it got nerfed u think it is right and make it public...?
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The problem with broodlords is they get countered quite well by marines, vikings, and even repaired thors.
At one point I thought getting brood lords would work well vs thor terrans, but then I noticed that when the thors are being repaired, and there's a few vikings around not being suicidal, there's nothing zerg can do about it with brood lords. My queens eventually ran out of energy healing the broodlords, and didn't deal enough damage to the vikings, not to mention that vikings weren't dealing most of the damage in the first place.
Ultralisks need a serious buff now that they have had an unprecedented nerf. Give them an ability, more AoE, more damage, more health, doesn't matter a whole lot, they just need something to do decent.
Ultralisks had a hard enough time as it is vs marauders, which countered ultralisks quite well, making thor-marauder core compositions very strong - now it's even worse.
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On September 29 2010 05:49 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:46 Justifer wrote:On September 29 2010 05:43 Fa1nT wrote:
Ultra are supposed to counter all armored ground units
Ultra are supposed to tank and survive to deal damage
Thors are not supposed to out-DPS them even without a damage type bonus.. And they can hit air, and fly on medivacs >_> Ultralisks can fly in overlords? They still tank and deal damage like there suppose to and now and they still counter armored heavily. Just because they don't have massive splash doesn't mean they dont do any of the things you mentioned You are not a 1600 Zerg player.
Wanna bet? Just.599. God i love when idiots make themselves look stupid
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On September 29 2010 05:48 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:42 tetracycloide wrote:On September 29 2010 05:27 ComaDose wrote:
not a nerf. splash range is same just from different location. will affect more units to the side. its a meele unit. why should it reach over/through thors? its a meele unit why should the splash be from the center of the target? Two problems here. First, it's possible you just don't understand what splash means but when the splash range is the same but it starts at a location further away from where you want it to be then it's absolutely a nerf in damage dealt. Second, you seem to be under the impression that units in starcraft work logically in some way. Is there a logical reason every siege tank operator is psychically linked to every other so they never shoot at the same target unless they need to? Is there a logical reason brood lords can fling broodings and things and never get smaller? It just doesn't make sense to analyze balance that way. yes it makes zerg worse when zerg should be getting better. yes it does less effective desirable damage. yes if your zerg you can qq if you want. yes it makes more sense this way. no im not an idiot. i just find nerf a hard word to throw around. and i will always believe the blizzard world is perfectly logical  the siege tanks have auto targeting systems that are networked together and calculate the available targets and tanks in range several times a second. the operator just watches the lights flash. the metabolic rate of a broodlord astoundingly creates fetuses and matures them to broodlords in seconds using nothing but the nutrients in the air.
Then a few questions for u!
How can marines shoot from behind a 3 barrack wall blocking the ramp.
How can infestors create infested terrans ? I can believe they copied the human DNA etc but copying the weapons ?
How can Hydras take down armored things when they can't even penetrate a marine armor (check campaign cutscenes).
Etc etc.
Sorry if I went OT.
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On September 29 2010 05:24 Justifer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:11 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 29 2010 05:06 SugarBear wrote:
Whahuh? Ultras get DESTROYED by marauder/marine mix with medivac support. And a few infernal preigniter hellions can exterminate any number of zerglings. It's absolute RAPE it's so one-sided. It's like playing Jenga where your opponent can choose his own blocks as well as the ones you have to remove. Completely unfair.
Now ultras aren't even effective. Thor/Hellion becomes just another unit composition that requires infestors and tons of micro to scout, position, and cast at the right times so you can overcome your opponent.
Meanwhile terran just has to move out with his hellions, thors, and a handful of scvs on autorepair. What micro is needed for that? You don't even have to lift and replace add-ons in that build. It's a joke.
And that's assuming you scout correctly. What if you go down a completely incorrect tech path, end up with a spire instead of an infestation pit, or an infestation pit and ultra den but no infestors or pathogen glands? It's easy enough to do, terran has so many options with so few buildings that a rax 2fact and a starport could mean anything from hellion/tank drops to marine tank viking to marauder hellion preigniter to all-out mech play.
Bottom line is ultras were designed to hard counter heavy mech units, and that's what they did, but now they are useless at even doing that. And you think that's a good thing? So tell me, would you consider it good if ghost EMP was removed so they couldn't counter infestor/HT anymore? Or if the immortal was changed to only do 20 damage to armored targets? Or if tank splash was changed to hit completely random spots in the target area and possibly missing entirely (cause it's unrealistic that tanks hit their target every time)?
No, that would be stupid, because it interferes with the basic design of each race that gives the game balance. Zerglings can't kill a critical mass of hellions because hellions were designed to hard counter zerglings, just like mass thors used to not be able to kill ultras because ultras were designed to counter heavy mech. Zerglings should not be able to destroy hellions easily, just like thors should not be able to destroy ultras. Yet now that is exactly the situation that has evolved. I Disagree. (I'm a 1600 point diamond zerg and this is what I thought about the following post) I also disagree. Infestors are not a necessity to win games and to claim terran requires no micro is simply stupid. Your examples are also stupid. To say you end up with a spire instead of an infestation pit early game does not matter. You shouldn't be opening early game with Infestors. Ultras were not designed to hard counter heavy mech and just because there splash damage was reduced does not mean they are still not a hard counter to mech. Ultralisk were designed just like in Starcraft BW to soak up damage. Thats why they have 500 hp and 5 armor. A unit like the ultralisk that has 500 hp splash damage and can hit 15 every second or so is never useless. The point of ultralisk countering thors is you can mass produce them so much quicker. To claim that an Ultralisk which is made out of one production building and can be made out more than one at a time can't be a single unit spawning one at a time is stupid. So don't go around spouting out bs when your clueless about what your talking about. I'm tired of people who are in bronze trying to claim imbalances when they don't even know how to play the game well.
Thanks for the response, and to clarify, I didn't say terran requires no micro, I said that specific build requires little/no micro compared to how much the zerg response requires. I don't know if I agree with you regarding mass production of ultras... you can mass produce them one time when the ultra den finishes assuming you have not had to invest into keeping yourself safe and defended every harass perfectly. After that you can make maybe 2-3 at once, which is easily done by a terran with 2 bases and 2-3 factories as well in regard to thors.
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On September 28 2010 23:36 Piski wrote:
I'm really that stupid that I don't get it :o I mean they said it wasn't intentional what ultra splash did in 1.1 so why are so freakin' surprised that it's now nerfed?
Didn't they just pretty much reverted it back as it was in 1.0?
It is worse than 1.0 now
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As soon as Zerg has just one thing that's too strong, it gets changed in a matter of days. Well, fuck you too Blizzard. This is just insulting to anyone who plays the race.
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On September 29 2010 05:48 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:42 tetracycloide wrote:On September 29 2010 05:27 ComaDose wrote:
not a nerf. splash range is same just from different location. will affect more units to the side. its a meele unit. why should it reach over/through thors? its a meele unit why should the splash be from the center of the target? Two problems here. First, it's possible you just don't understand what splash means but when the splash range is the same but it starts at a location further away from where you want it to be then it's absolutely a nerf in damage dealt. Second, you seem to be under the impression that units in starcraft work logically in some way. Is there a logical reason every siege tank operator is psychically linked to every other so they never shoot at the same target unless they need to? Is there a logical reason brood lords can fling broodings and things and never get smaller? It just doesn't make sense to analyze balance that way. yes it makes zerg worse when zerg should be getting better. yes it does less effective desirable damage. yes if your zerg you can qq if you want. yes it makes more sense this way. no im not an idiot. i just find nerf a hard word to throw around. and i will always believe the blizzard world is perfectly logical the siege tanks have auto targeting systems that are networked together and calculate the available targets and tanks in range several times a second. the operator just watches the lights flash. the metabolic rate of a broodlord astoundingly creates fetuses and matures them to broodlords in seconds using nothing but the nutrients in the air.
I'm sorry but any changes where a unit's effectiveness is reduced, even in this small case is indeed considered a nerf.
A nerf doesn't have to be a drastic negative change, a nerfs a nerf.
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I actually like the fix. It just makes more logical sense. Put up a bunch of stuff in your room and slash at it with a big sword. The size of the object doesn't affect how much you hit.
Of course, from a gameplay perspective, this hurts. This is a nerf to the race which needs it the least, so that's not good. But it's not as if broken cleave was the end-all fix to the current situation; if it was that easy, we could break a whole bunch of other things and there'd still be no balance. To me, broken cleave was akin to "GIVE DRONES MORE RETURN" or "BUFF X'S DAMAGE."
I'd say, oh, they need to give Ultras their damage back, but honestly I think Zerg's hurting due to a concept issue, and no amount of changing numbers is going to do much in terms of balance.
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The reason why Ultras were given this different type of splash damage in the first place was because they were designed specifically to counter massed Mech and massed armored units; units which are generally large and tough enough to deal with anti-light (i.e. normal) splash damage easily. This is thus an intentional feature, and NOT a bug.
Without it, Ultras are MUCH less powerful against mass armored units, the very thing they are designed to counter. This change is thus a bug, and should be treated as such.
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So instead of fixing the splash and making it look decent by either adding two different cleave attacks one for massive and large buildings and the other overall, you took out the splash almost completely so that units like the Thor that do insane DPS, take up so much room in your especially cramped 'staple' maps that they will always create a concave against the Ultras, when the Ultras move clumsily about with zerglings, AND during a time when Zerg needs a buff overall against the other races?
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Honest to god, just have tournament winners and really high up guys and clans advice you. No offense but their 10+ hours per day regiment fine tuning and exploring build teaches them more about the game than aggregate data prone to errors, dependencies and statistical misinterpretations ('statistics is the science and art of interpreting figures') ever will. Blizzard, you seem to be moving in the dark ESPECIALLY if you unintentionally caused this.
User was warned for this post
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Baa?21245 Posts
On September 29 2010 05:51 Justifer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:49 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 29 2010 05:46 Justifer wrote:On September 29 2010 05:43 Fa1nT wrote:
Ultra are supposed to counter all armored ground units
Ultra are supposed to tank and survive to deal damage
Thors are not supposed to out-DPS them even without a damage type bonus.. And they can hit air, and fly on medivacs >_> Ultralisks can fly in overlords? They still tank and deal damage like there suppose to and now and they still counter armored heavily. Just because they don't have massive splash doesn't mean they dont do any of the things you mentioned You are not a 1600 Zerg player. Wanna bet? Just.599. God i love when idiots make themselves look stupid
Show me some flying Ultralisks hanging a battle replays lol.
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Honestly, I doubt this patch ever went past the designers and balance people. QA saw some bugs, got okay from higher ups to fix them, and then patched.
We'll see if this lasts...
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I guess I'd have to see a video of ultralisk before 1.1 to be sure of this. I specifically remember testing all Zerg units after release to try to find good ways to deal with Thors and Ultralisk losing that test. The first thing I did when I saw the PF videos from 1.1 is go test Thor vs Ultra and the Ultras were winning and I was happy.
I just went back and watched some old videos before patch 1.1 and it really does seem the splash worked differently then. As far as I can tell the splash originates at the ultralisk and in patch 1.1 it was originating at the unit being attacked so even though the range might not have changed the number of units hit against large targets really did look bigger.
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On September 29 2010 05:51 Justifer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:49 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 29 2010 05:46 Justifer wrote:On September 29 2010 05:43 Fa1nT wrote:
Ultra are supposed to counter all armored ground units
Ultra are supposed to tank and survive to deal damage
Thors are not supposed to out-DPS them even without a damage type bonus.. And they can hit air, and fly on medivacs >_> Ultralisks can fly in overlords? They still tank and deal damage like there suppose to and now and they still counter armored heavily. Just because they don't have massive splash doesn't mean they dont do any of the things you mentioned You are not a 1600 Zerg player. Wanna bet? Just.599. God i love when idiots make themselves look stupid
I really wanna know how the MMR thing works. You didn't even make the top 200, while I've been placed as high as like 120 when I stopped playing aroudn 1500 points a bit ago, I was being matched against people a lot higher htan me. I've played maybe 6 ladder games in the past 2 weeks and I still made it on, and my last game was a ZvZ against Strelok :o. He had only like 750 points but was favored against me and I got 17 friggin' points for winning. Crazy.
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On September 28 2010 23:36 Piski wrote:
I'm really that stupid that I don't get it :o I mean they said it wasn't intentional what ultra splash did in 1.1 so why are so freakin' surprised that it's now nerfed?
Didn't they just pretty much reverted it back as it was in 1.0?
Ultras used to use the ram attack on buildings; they never changed / buffed Ultra splash damage on other units, but since the splash dmg attack on buildings was imba they made it... bad...
Seriously, horrible failure from Bliz this time.
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I think I'm going to stop playing zerg. The ultralisk is my tier 3 bread and butter unit, and I utilize it a lot. After this nerf, they're a lot less effective than they ever were before. So overall patch 1.1 gave them a +5 damage nerf, and a splash nerf--who cares if I can splash repairing SCVs off the back of a supply depot now--if I wanted to bust a door I'd use banelings.
I'm disappointed, and moreso than I ever have been about Starcraft in the past. I may just do the "real life random" coin flip for Terran/Protoss in my laddering, because the skill differentially between the three (more so with Terran than Protoss) is so vast that I feel like I have to work twice as hard when I want to play my little slimy swarm.
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Ultra's really needed a nerf BUT; Zerg as a race overall needs a buff and its only a matter of time when that will happen.
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EPT
