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On September 29 2010 06:19 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 06:17 aRRR wrote:
Ultra's really needed a nerf BUT; Zerg as a race overall needs a buff and its only a matter of time when that will happen. I think that's what everyone is upset about. The nerf came immediately, but the buff "is only a matter of time". It really feels like a slap in the face to zerg players that blizzard fixes this within a week while zerg has had problems at highly competitive levels for months.
This is standard for Blizzard. If they see a bug or unintended gameplay effect they don't like, they'll nuke it ASAP, regardless of any related factors. It doesn't help that sometimes the nuke is rather poorly aimed.  But (and this goes for Zerg posters in general), please remember that they don't intentionally want Zerg to be a bad playing experience. Zerg just happened to have the bad luck to catch a bug at an inopportune time. Blizzard would have done the exact same thing if the bug had been in a Terran unit, or a Protoss one. And they're doing the right thing in fixing it, too, although the exact method they chose to do so is, as it so often is, very debatable.
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Has anyone tested to see if ultra's actually do more damage to buildings now vs when they had the head butt attack?
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On September 29 2010 06:38 Sprouter wrote:
I want to see how ultra splash looked like pre-1.1.0. obviously 1.1.1 is going to look like a huge nerf compared to 1.1.0's UNINTENTIONAL BUFF/BUG.
Ultra splash looked exactly the same 1.1.0 as it did from the end of the first phase beta.
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On September 29 2010 06:40 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 06:38 Sprouter wrote:
I want to see how ultra splash looked like pre-1.1.0. obviously 1.1.1 is going to look like a huge nerf compared to 1.1.0's UNINTENTIONAL BUFF/BUG. It looked the same vs units and did not work vs buildings. They also dealt more to armored.
I'd like to see an actual video of it though because as I said earlier while looking at old replays and from actually testing things in the unit tester this really doesn't seem true. Everyone is saying it but nobody seems to be able to back it up with any proof.
It almost looks like they changed where the splash originates from in 1.1 from watching old replays. The splash definitely looks different even against units though.
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On September 29 2010 06:42 Karkadinn wrote:
Zerg just happened to have the bad luck to catch a bug at an inopportune time. Blizzard would have done the exact same thing if the bug had been in a Terran unit, or a Protoss one. And they're doing the right thing in fixing it, too, although the exact method they chose to do so is, as it so often is, very debatable.
On September 29 2010 06:35 Logo wrote:
Just for example, where was the hotfix to fix scvs repairing from inside a bunker?
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On September 29 2010 06:43 EnderCN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 06:40 lololol wrote:On September 29 2010 06:38 Sprouter wrote:
I want to see how ultra splash looked like pre-1.1.0. obviously 1.1.1 is going to look like a huge nerf compared to 1.1.0's UNINTENTIONAL BUFF/BUG. It looked the same vs units and did not work vs buildings. They also dealt more to armored. I'd like to see an actual video of it though because as I said earlier while looking at old replays and from actually testing things in the unit tester this really doesn't seem true. Everyone is saying it but nobody seems to be able to back it up with any proof. It almost looks like they changed where the splash originates from in 1.1 from watching old replays. The splash definitely looks different even against units though.
I am looking at the EffectData.xml files and they are the same between 1.0.2 and 1.1, with the exception of the normal attack being able to target buildings, of course.
I haven't tested in game, but the "Extend By Unit Radius" flag is there in both versions and matches the behavior.
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Just to clarify
During the beta cleave splash was as it is now but along with the patch that changed ultra from 600 hp 25 dmg to 400 hp 15+25 armoured dmg there was an undocumented change where ppl thought cleave splash was increased, it was not it was just the bug that got introduced that was now fixed.
This was all around the time where most splash was changed from being applied to a point on the map to being centered on targeted unit to help ranged units splash where you could miss the targeted unit when targeting fast units like mutas and ling and only hitting them with the lower dmg zones instaid of direct hits.
Anyway ppl just ate the introduction of this bug as a ninja buff for the ultras splash area and never thought to question it
This was on one of the last patches of the beta so ppl didn't play around with the ultra mutch as it allready considered useless back then, then the next patch did incease it's hp to 500 and gave it the speedupgrade as preresearched and beta ended shortly thereafter (timeline was something like this but i'm too lazy to check the beta patch compilation thread to verify, but it's this or very close to)
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On September 29 2010 06:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Late game mas ultra was impossible to stop by mech. A transition to bio is...well, not possible and the splash was just to big for thors to fight them. Ultras are to break siege tank lines and they do that i think no? If Thors do not beat Ultras then terran has nothing to fight them (mech).
Zerg needs help for sure, but this Ultra splash nerf was a must.
Wow, this is just such an absolutely silly thing to say. It really shows the mentality some terran players seem to have. Are you seriously saying that just because you can't produce a counter against ultras from the factory, ultras are overpowered?? That is like a protoss player complaining that the robotics facility doesn't produce a unit that can counter a battlecruiser. It is an absolutely ridiculous argument.
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On September 29 2010 06:51 Zihn wrote:
Just to clarify
During the beta cleave splash was as it is now but along with the patch that changed ultra from 600 hp 25 dmg to 400 hp 15+25 armoured dmg there was an undocumented change where ppl thought cleave splash was increased, it was not it was just the bug that got introduced that was now fixed.
This was all around the time where most splash was changed from being applied to a point on the map to being centered on targeted unit to help ranged units splash where you could miss the targeted unit when targeting fast units like mutas and ling and only hitting them with the lower dmg zones instaid of direct hits.
Anyway ppl just ate the introduction of this bug as a ninja buff for the ultras splash area and never thought to question it
This was on one of the last patches of the beta so ppl didn't play around with the ultra mutch as it allready considered useless back then, then the next patch did incease it's hp to 500 and gave it the speedupgrade as preresearched and beta ended shortly thereafter (timeline was something like this but i'm too lazy to check the beta patch compilation thread to verify, but it's this or very close to)
source please.
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On September 29 2010 06:51 Zihn wrote:
Just to clarify
During the beta cleave splash was as it is now but along with the patch that changed ultra from 600 hp 25 dmg to 400 hp 15+25 armoured dmg there was an undocumented change where ppl thought cleave splash was increased, it was not it was just the bug that got introduced that was now fixed.
This was all around the time where most splash was changed from being applied to a point on the map to being centered on targeted unit to help ranged units splash where you could miss the targeted unit when targeting fast units like mutas and ling and only hitting them with the lower dmg zones instaid of direct hits.
Anyway ppl just ate the introduction of this bug as a ninja buff for the ultras splash area and never thought to question it
This was on one of the last patches of the beta so ppl didn't play around with the ultra mutch as it allready considered useless back then, then the next patch did incease it's hp to 500 and gave it the speedupgrade as preresearched and beta ended shortly thereafter (timeline was something like this but i'm too lazy to check the beta patch compilation thread to verify, but it's this or very close to)
Splash starting from the center of the targeted unit or the closest point of that unit is because of a flag, named "offset by unit radius". This is the reason splash was around the target.
The reason the splash became huge when attacking huge targets is the "extend by unit radius" flag and the other splash attacks don't have that. If they kept that one, the splash would still become huge, when attacking huge targets, even if it's centered on the closest point of the target, instead of it's center.
That change could've been made during beta without notice, but it's not equivalent to the other splash attacks.
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On September 29 2010 06:51 Zihn wrote:
Just to clarify
During the beta cleave splash was as it is now but along with the patch that changed ultra from 600 hp 25 dmg to 400 hp 15+25 armoured dmg there was an undocumented change where ppl thought cleave splash was increased, it was not it was just the bug that got introduced that was now fixed.
This was all around the time where most splash was changed from being applied to a point on the map to being centered on targeted unit to help ranged units splash where you could miss the targeted unit when targeting fast units like mutas and ling and only hitting them with the lower dmg zones instaid of direct hits.
Anyway ppl just ate the introduction of this bug as a ninja buff for the ultras splash area and never thought to question it
This was on one of the last patches of the beta so ppl didn't play around with the ultra mutch as it allready considered useless back then, then the next patch did incease it's hp to 500 and gave it the speedupgrade as preresearched and beta ended shortly thereafter (timeline was something like this but i'm too lazy to check the beta patch compilation thread to verify, but it's this or very close to)
Three points I'd like to make:
1) Fair enough, but so what if it was a "bug." The fact that it was an unintended consequence doesn't, in and of itself, mean that it's imbalanced.
2) It's not like the the extra splash damage offers Zerg some kind of crazy advantage. After all, to get the full advantage of the "bug" I have to get ULTRALISKS INSIDE YOUR BASE.
3) Saying that Zergs "ate the introduction of this bug as a ninja buff for the ultras" is a distortion of facts. I've played in many many betas. Specifically in Blizzard betas, their marketing line is "Hey, it's beta. Things will change with or without notice." You can't have it both ways. Many Zergs assumed it was a just and intended buff... as they should. Let's be honest, without big ultra cleaves, Zerg ground armies are SIGNIFICANTLY weaker.
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They could keep the splash, make it 15 (+25 vs armored) damage and make splash dmg 50%
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I never comented on balance, just thought ppl should know that the splash was not as per retail all of beta rather it was far from.
As for balance zerg needs a bone but it should not be a variable sized splash where the attacked units size determines the AoE... unless they make an animation where the ultra picks up said unit and starts to flail it around then i'm all for it lol.
Anyhow if they have to make any changes to the splash it should be a slight general splash increase and not reintroduction of the "bug"
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Did you even read what you linked to? That change was a massive nerf. Also, it didn't change from an ultra centered aoe to a unit centered cleave, it was already a unit centered cleave before that (as it stated in the thread, just the aoe was raidus + 1 unit, the change was that it was buffed to raidus + 2 units, but the cleave damage was nerfed from 100%).
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On September 29 2010 06:42 Karkadinn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 06:19 SugarBear wrote:On September 29 2010 06:17 aRRR wrote:
Ultra's really needed a nerf BUT; Zerg as a race overall needs a buff and its only a matter of time when that will happen. I think that's what everyone is upset about. The nerf came immediately, but the buff "is only a matter of time". It really feels like a slap in the face to zerg players that blizzard fixes this within a week while zerg has had problems at highly competitive levels for months. This is standard for Blizzard. If they see a bug or unintended gameplay effect they don't like, they'll nuke it ASAP, regardless of any related factors. It doesn't help that sometimes the nuke is rather poorly aimed. But (and this goes for Zerg posters in general), please remember that they don't intentionally want Zerg to be a bad playing experience. Zerg just happened to have the bad luck to catch a bug at an inopportune time. Blizzard would have done the exact same thing if the bug had been in a Terran unit, or a Protoss one. And they're doing the right thing in fixing it, too, although the exact method they chose to do so is, as it so often is, very debatable.
Yeah, I agree. Its stupid to think that it was intentionally.
But they still didn't do anything about PF/BC/Thor repair. You cannot kill these things if they are being repaired unless you attack with 50 food army. SCV priority should be higher. Or is that intented by Blizzard. It amuses me that they are so quick to fix zerg and ignore other problems for a long time.
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Ultras went from 1.5 radius, 90 degree, 100% splash in beta
to 2.5, 180 degree and 33% at end of beta and pre 1.1.0
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On September 29 2010 07:20 Davidson wrote:Did you even read what you linked to? That change was a massive nerf. Also, it didn't change from an ultra centered aoe to a unit centered cleave, it was already a unit centered cleave before that (as it stated in the thread, just the aoe was raidus + 1 unit, the change was that it was buffed to raidus + 2 units, but the cleave damage was nerfed from 100%).
if you do infact read the ENTIRE thread you will find a small point where pre patch the number of lings hit by ultra would change depending on how close the ultra was to the attacked ling where as post patch it didn't matter if you attacked from the maximum range or tried to walk closer with move command
regardless it was an undocumented change that affected cleave in more ways than one, nerf or not and i do miss the pre patch ultra even if i had to reasearch the movement speed back then to not have it walk like a queen off creep
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On September 29 2010 07:21 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 06:42 Karkadinn wrote:On September 29 2010 06:19 SugarBear wrote:On September 29 2010 06:17 aRRR wrote:
Ultra's really needed a nerf BUT; Zerg as a race overall needs a buff and its only a matter of time when that will happen. I think that's what everyone is upset about. The nerf came immediately, but the buff "is only a matter of time". It really feels like a slap in the face to zerg players that blizzard fixes this within a week while zerg has had problems at highly competitive levels for months. This is standard for Blizzard. If they see a bug or unintended gameplay effect they don't like, they'll nuke it ASAP, regardless of any related factors. It doesn't help that sometimes the nuke is rather poorly aimed. But (and this goes for Zerg posters in general), please remember that they don't intentionally want Zerg to be a bad playing experience. Zerg just happened to have the bad luck to catch a bug at an inopportune time. Blizzard would have done the exact same thing if the bug had been in a Terran unit, or a Protoss one. And they're doing the right thing in fixing it, too, although the exact method they chose to do so is, as it so often is, very debatable. Yeah, I agree. Its stupid to think that it was intentionally. But they still didn't do anything about PF/BC/Thor repair. You cannot kill these things if they are being repaired unless you attack with 50 food army. SCV priority should be higher. Or is that intented by Blizzard. It amuses me that they are so quick to fix zerg and ignore other problems for a long time.
They did something about repair on these units, they buffed it. With the release they equalized the repair time with their new buildtimes. For example PF repair time got reduced from 225(IIRC) to 150(CC + PF build time).
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On September 29 2010 06:53 Mr Tambourine Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 06:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Late game mas ultra was impossible to stop by mech. A transition to bio is...well, not possible and the splash was just to big for thors to fight them. Ultras are to break siege tank lines and they do that i think no? If Thors do not beat Ultras then terran has nothing to fight them (mech).
Zerg needs help for sure, but this Ultra splash nerf was a must. Wow, this is just such an absolutely silly thing to say. It really shows the mentality some terran players seem to have. Are you seriously saying that just because you can't produce a counter against ultras from the factory, ultras are overpowered?? That is like a protoss player complaining that the robotics facility doesn't produce a unit that can counter a battlecruiser. It is an absolutely ridiculous argument.
Well, you do not know what you are talking about so i will be nice, i ll ignore the "terran mentality" and "silly" etc insults you are throwing.
Terran has 2 distinct ways of playing, bio and mech (there is also bio/mech but *) They both have advantages and disadvantages but both have to be "effective" . Why is this you say? The answer is in the upgrades. Unlike Protoss and Zerg, Terran has 2 completely different ground upgrade paths(bio/mech). You have to choose what path you want to go (bio/mech) so you can keep up with the upgrades in the late game.
Sure you can make a few units that are not part of the core army (make a few marines while you are going mech/ a few tanks while you are going bio) but you can not rely on this units to counter a late game army that has upgrades.
Be nice!
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EPT
