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You might think I'm being a little harsh here, but these are the most basic of casting things that you need to get down if you're hoping to become better.
- Get confident talking on the microphone. You both sound extremely nervous. Nervous people do not endeer the topic that they're talking about.
- Don't have a huge voice range. Going up and down heaps is so annoying and people DO notice. Especially squeeking.
- Try to think of the next point you're going to make while still talking about the previous point. Although this may (to start with at least) cause you two to overlap and microphone hog a little, it's imperitive to getting clear points of speech, and not stumbling heaps with 'umm's, and 'err's. If you are having trouble with this, watch the game with each other first, make a list of what you're going to comment on, and work off that. Don't expect to just blind cast.
- Decide what you want to do with this channel. Is it for shoutcasting low level games? Or is it for helping low level players become better? There's a big difference. If you're shoutcasting low level games, (ie. watching the game straight out, making small comments and mostly focusing on the action and interesting choices of the player), then it'll actually be fairly boring compared to commentating high level play. If you're making videos to explain how to get better as a low level player, then you might look at not using other peoples games at all, and actually focusing on creating your own videos to explain a point. eg. Explaining macro basics, make your point by showing 2 players doing the exact same build, one getting supply blocked (and not starting his depot until he is capped) twice on his way to 50 food. Show the difference between the times when each player reaches 50 food. Show how different the fight is when the first player pushes out at 50 food. This sort of thing.
- I feel as though you're expecting to comment on things that will relate to lower level players more than higher level players. Yes, ok, the things you say might be what is going through the lower players head, but what use is that to anyone? The reason the obvious comments are ignored by high level shoutcasters (and I'm fairly sure that's what you've been watching), is that they're either a) obvious, or b) don't make too much difference. They may be small refinements, but that's about it. And truthfully, I don't think I've failed to see a ZvAnything match on LT where the commentator failed to mention the overlord scouting across position unless said it 40 times already.
- You have to define what people actually are unaware of, compared to what they're just too slow/forget to do ingame. Almost every zerg (and I'm talking even low Bronze) is aware that they're creep is important. Anyone who's noticed the creep tumor ability on the queen knows that it's important for zerg to spread. The REASON most people don't end up doing it, is that they a) have low EAPM in-game; or b) forget it on their mental checklist. That doesn't mean you have to spend time explaining to people it's important to spread their creep, they know that. It's important to give them the tools to better incorporate that into their play. Like trying to get them into the habit of everytime they build an overlord, they spread their creep another knotch, or something silly like that.
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On September 14 2010 23:38 Wunder wrote:Yeah, you've gotten some criticism already about the fact that the second part of your first cast was cut off, and I see now that it wasn't intentional. Honestly, for the first cast, it was quite decent. I can tell both of you are very nervous and you can stuttering a lot but I can see the potential. - Try and use the camera a bit more smoothly as it's quite distracting to watch. - Some points that you made were good but things like putting up 5 gates is a little too much off 1 base is silly when sSKS does a 6gate into expand build sometimes. There were more points, but I forgots 
I'd also like to expand on Wunder's point here a little.
OK. Maybe you've heard that 5 gates is too much for 1 base. But do you know why?
The amount of resources you get off of 1 base can be spent well with only 4 gateways if macro'ed correctly. Alright, well what if they're not macro'ed correctly? What if you want an excess of early units so you can fast expand quickly? What about the amount of units that come out at each time? So you may not be able to maintain 5 gates or more, but if you're not looking to just maintain and instead expand, is it alright?
It sounds like you just read somewhere '5 gates off 1 base is too much.' and took it as truth, as though it is automatically bad. If you're planning on teaching anything, you have to question your own blanket statement assumptions.
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I'm pretty sure HD etc aren't putting out youtube videos on what a control group is.
Fair enough. I hadn't even considered that as something people either would have trouble with or wouldn't know about...
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Listening to them talking about spawning pool placement for 2 minutes made me want to kill myself.
What do you think will be more useful for new players, some vague zerg simcity theorycraft or addressing the real issue of scouting rather than "wow thats a early probe scout hes going to hurt his economy. I just saw so many missed opportunities watching your video. Also oh man the high pitched voice XD.
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We've been practicing with the mic a little bit so next cast should be better.
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Guys, come on... Be nice. Perhaps they are young little fanboys, perhaps not, but you're all just a bunch of rude, fat, 35 year old nerds eating cheezy poofs, and calling for your mom to bring you the toilet pan (ooo, don't stereotype us, we can stereotype kids, but...). Yeah, whatever.
Anywho, these guys are helping to cast a league whom no one else would probably give the time of day to, and that's fine. If new players go solely to these casters for advice, then they're stupid. If they go to these guys for fun, yet to Day9, HD, Husky, et al. for true learning, all the better.
Yes, they're not as good as Day9. They never claimed to be. Get over yourselves and go get a job or something. Move out of your parent's homes, and quit raging about how stupid kids are, since they're the only things inferior to your pitiful lives.
lol
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No offense to the casters of this, as I'm a bronze player myself and wouldn't mind something that helps the noobs a bit, but this isn't cutting it. It's trying to be too advanced, while hiding under the guise of Bronze level play to get away with it. You're talking about timings like "12 gate" etc. Bronze players have no idea wtf that means.
You want to help actual noobs? Don't pretend to be HD and Husky of the Bronze league and don't cast matches. Instead, you're going to need casts that focus on things like "What is a Build Order" that goes through the entire concept at a high level. And another one that explains what Macro is. Or what Micro is, and why it's important to *eventually* get good at these thing. One that goes over hotkeys and how to use them (or transition to them from mouse clicking). Yes, the mundane things about SC2. But those are the actual noob ideas that will help Bronze playing noobs and are things that more advanced casters will not touch ("because everyone should already know that"). It's also something that you're probably good enough to actually talk about.
Basically, you're totally missing your target audience here.
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I'll agree with Vesicular on this one. I dig the idea, but I think you've got to focus on your target audience.
Maybe rather than doing caster style commentary of the game, do a Day[9] style analysis. Pause the game, explain what the player is doing, what they're doing right, what they're doing wrong, and what they could do to improve.
Take it a little slower and don't worry about talking too fast 
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On September 17 2010 14:21 Gonzodamus wrote:I'll agree with Vesicular on this one. I dig the idea, but I think you've got to focus on your target audience. Maybe rather than doing caster style commentary of the game, do a Day[9] style analysis. Pause the game, explain what the player is doing, what they're doing right, what they're doing wrong, and what they could do to improve. Take it a little slower and don't worry about talking too fast
I agree that pausing the game to hit a key concept is very good, and I also agree that using the minimap and or hotkeying the hatch's, nexi, cc's for quick jumping back and forth is better than scrolling the mouse across the map and making us all dizzy (however, know that day9 has to do this because if he scrolls he flies out of the window in his cast, as he has done and apologized in his casts before**), and don't be afraid to rewind, speed things up, etc. Perhaps watching the game first (if you haven't already been doing this, perhaps you have), and then going back to point out the key transitions that won/lost the game is important, but I think you guys did a good job on the Chris vs me game, at least in getting the big picture items. I did fail in my macro, despite my micro, which inevitably lost the game, and he was up 10 harvesters and an expansion for much of the game as well. My biggest issue was probably not saturating the natural expansion with drones shortly after it was up, as perhaps I should have done, which lost the economic advantage. And yes, I was planning on a nydus with that olord, maybe even hydra harrass against his expo as well, but unfortunately I didn't last that long. 
And for the record, to all of you thinking this is just bronze level play, Chris and I are both gold, and Flow and Hybrid are casting gold and below games, and I dare say they're doing just fine.
**= There's an old tale, about how a family has made their Christmas ham throughout the years. They slice off the ends and then bake it. Whenever people in the family didn't do this, they were ridiculed. Finally, one young member of the family goes to grandma in the old folks home and asks what the benefit of doing this was. She says, "Well, the pan I cooked it in was so tiny, and I had to chop off the ends to make it fit."
Moral: Don't assume that simply because the "masters" do something, that it means it is due to it being the optimal strategy in all cases. Perhaps it's simply due to a limitation for which they've found a hotfix.
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Good luck with this, stinking and trying to get better myself, I can see that sometimes the better players don't get what us noobs don't get!!
Suggesting that someone "just needs to play more" is completely counter to the modern sports methods. As a matter of fact, it's quite the contrary, for just about any sport you want to try, there are instructors who can offer input to students at all levels.
In most sports, about the worst thing you can do is practice poorly and ingrain your bad habits.
Who else is extending a helping hand to tell us what these are? Mostly what we seem to get is the elitist brush off.
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Even tho day9 doesnt go over every little detail I think you learn WAY more from those sick good players than these crappy players...
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On September 18 2010 00:19 ZaaaaaM wrote:
Even tho day9 doesnt go over every little detail I think you learn WAY more from those sick good players than these crappy players...
Yes and no, they make far fewer mistakes, and it's easy for us, watching the greats, to assume mistakes won't happen. Agreed, you get better at anything by studying under people better than you, but I don't think you can get good by just watching the best. I'm rather good at chess, I was even the president of the chess club at a major division one university, but I didn't get that way solely by watching Kasparov and Polgar...
Funny how everyone on here is an expert on how to become an expert. I should go tell one of my PhD cognitive psychology colleagues who's made a carreer out of studying the construct of expertise, that he SHOULD quit his day job and just come read this thread, because you guys have it all figured out, and there's nothing more needed by his and others' rigorous research.
lmao
But I digress. Give Flow and Hybrid advice on how to get better. Telling them to just give up because no one will possibly improve by watching them, is not helping anything, and they will continue to cast despite your portents of doom and gloom.
In fact, come watch the league games at risingleague.tk, and watch how we get better as the season goes onward. And finally, if you are a n00b, I want you to ask yourself, honestly, if you learned anything, or put things into a taxony more efficiently which helps you. Then, perhaps you'll eat your words, or more likely, deny reality.
~DuncanIdaho
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On September 14 2010 22:56 hmunkey wrote:
I don't understand how a bronze and silver player could possibly give useful insight into someone's play. Bronze is the lowest league, so unless you're helping out people who just bought the game a day ago, you really won't be doing anything.
I guess what I'm saying is that bronze and silver players don't really have any useful insight to give or they wouldn't still be bronze and silver, unless of course they suffer from some debilitating condition that impedes their physical clicking despite their superior intended strategies?
I think there may be a niche for this. It seems to me that there is a vast amount of people that bought SC2, and do not Ladder simply because they are scared. These are the players that play custom games, dota rip-offs, campaign on medium, or against AI. If you can get players like this to watch, show them the ropes a little. Maybe they will be less hesitant ladder, and actually improve their game.
I watched the cast was ok, don't have a lot to add being a pretty terrible player myself. I liked the idea that someone mentioned, of showing people how to stop cheese. It can be so disheartening as a new player to lose to a cannon rush or a proxy. Show them how to counter it so they don't give up, or start doing it themselves! Also check out Day9's Back to the basics daily (If you haven't already) I'm not saying copy everything he said, but for a new player he really simplifies the "core" mental checklist you should be focusing on in game.
A little about me, an old RTS fan (like Warcraft 2 Bnet Ed. old) Took a long hiatus (Pretty much all of SC BW) But when I heard all the hype about SC2 it gave me the RTS itch again. Trying to break out of my WoW habits (3 hotkeys ftw!) and improve my game by laddering a lot. Sitting around the top of my Silver ladder atm.
Keep with it guys.
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Our niche appears to be gone with Day9's Nooby Tuesdays starting. We'll see.
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On September 21 2010 14:15 flowandebb wrote:
Our niche appears to be gone with Day9's Nooby Tuesdays starting. We'll see.
Meh, I don't think so, there's always room for more... But ultimately, it's up to you guys.
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Are you going to push through with your cast?
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EPT
