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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iACJd.jpg)
I am FlowAndEbb, one half of the new Starcraft 2 casting team that is HybridFlow Starcraft. We are both considered newbs. I myself am a high-level Bronze player and Hybrid, the other half, is a high level silver league player. While some of the veterans of this forum will instantly dismiss as knowing nothing about the game, other newer, less experienced players will hopefully see that because we play in the lower leagues, we can give a little more insights that other casters can't. Mostly because they overlook these details because "every player should know these things already". The vast majority of our casts will be low-level players, showcasing what they do right and wrong. A couple will showcase how to beat certain cheeses, which are so prevalent in Bronze, Silver and Gold leagues. Our YouTube channel has been set up and we're ready to upload videos. We'll be accepting any low-level games to dissect and cast. Comment on the Youtube channel, send I or Hybrid a pm on TL, or post the replay on this thread and we'll try to look at as many as possible. A UStream channel is definitely an option if we get enough interest,
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Might want some content before advertising. That's what truly gets you dismissed.
... that and recommending KK as good casters.
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On September 13 2010 06:50 Cedstick wrote:
Might want some content before advertising. That's what truly gets you dismissed.
... that and recommending KK as good casters.
KK is definitely a little weak when Kitty casts, but Krytos is bearable..
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Get content before you advertise things! Even if its just one or two videos. Good luck 
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Newbs Helping Newbs
Don't get it, how should noobs help other noobs to improve while they're actually noobs ?xD
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Where should I upload the RISING Cup #2 Finals games 
Or are you guys gonna go through the whole tournament, saving that for last?
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we can give a little more insights that other casters can't. Mostly because they overlook these details because "every player should know these things already".
Don't get it, how should noobs help other noobs to improve while they're actually noobs ?xD
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On September 13 2010 07:00 Karliath wrote:Where should I upload the RISING Cup #2 Finals games Or are you guys gonna go through the whole tournament, saving that for last?
You can send us any replays you feel is actually decent to cast.
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Hey! good luck ^_^ don't need to be diamond to feel like a champ imo.
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On September 13 2010 07:01 flowandebb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:00 Karliath wrote:Where should I upload the RISING Cup #2 Finals games Or are you guys gonna go through the whole tournament, saving that for last? You can send us any replays you feel is actually decent to cast.
Meh I have no idea if the games in the tournament were any good, cause I didn't watch most of them.
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On September 13 2010 07:05 Karliath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:01 flowandebb wrote:On September 13 2010 07:00 Karliath wrote:Where should I upload the RISING Cup #2 Finals games Or are you guys gonna go through the whole tournament, saving that for last? You can send us any replays you feel is actually decent to cast. Meh I have no idea if the games in the tournament were any good, cause I didn't watch most of them.
Can you send me the finals games and I'll root through them?
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On September 13 2010 07:06 flowandebb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:05 Karliath wrote:On September 13 2010 07:01 flowandebb wrote:On September 13 2010 07:00 Karliath wrote:Where should I upload the RISING Cup #2 Finals games Or are you guys gonna go through the whole tournament, saving that for last? You can send us any replays you feel is actually decent to cast. Meh I have no idea if the games in the tournament were any good, cause I didn't watch most of them. Can you send me the finals games and I'll root through them?
sent
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On September 13 2010 07:13 Karliath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:06 flowandebb wrote:On September 13 2010 07:05 Karliath wrote:On September 13 2010 07:01 flowandebb wrote:On September 13 2010 07:00 Karliath wrote:Where should I upload the RISING Cup #2 Finals games Or are you guys gonna go through the whole tournament, saving that for last? You can send us any replays you feel is actually decent to cast. Meh I have no idea if the games in the tournament were any good, cause I didn't watch most of them. Can you send me the finals games and I'll root through them? sent
...where exactly?
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noobs make for slow shitty games cause they can't macro and don't know how to take advantage of a situation..
imo Day9tv and WoC is enough for gold->diamond but anyone below should just be playing and getting used to the macro.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Subbed, good luck! I look forward to seeing your progress
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On September 13 2010 07:16 Terrakin wrote:
noobs make for slow shitty games cause they can't macro and don't know how to take advantage of a situation..
imo Day9tv and WoC is enough for gold->diamond but anyone below should just be playing and getting used to the macro.
You would be surprised by the level of some games by some newbs. There are some very exciting matches I've seen. Also some creativity, which is honestly even to me pretty surprising.
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On September 13 2010 07:15 flowandebb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:13 Karliath wrote:On September 13 2010 07:06 flowandebb wrote:On September 13 2010 07:05 Karliath wrote:On September 13 2010 07:01 flowandebb wrote:On September 13 2010 07:00 Karliath wrote:Where should I upload the RISING Cup #2 Finals games Or are you guys gonna go through the whole tournament, saving that for last? You can send us any replays you feel is actually decent to cast. Meh I have no idea if the games in the tournament were any good, cause I didn't watch most of them. Can you send me the finals games and I'll root through them? sent ...where exactly?
the email listed on your youtube channel.
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On September 13 2010 07:20 Karliath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:15 flowandebb wrote:On September 13 2010 07:13 Karliath wrote:On September 13 2010 07:06 flowandebb wrote:On September 13 2010 07:05 Karliath wrote:On September 13 2010 07:01 flowandebb wrote:On September 13 2010 07:00 Karliath wrote:Where should I upload the RISING Cup #2 Finals games Or are you guys gonna go through the whole tournament, saving that for last? You can send us any replays you feel is actually decent to cast. Meh I have no idea if the games in the tournament were any good, cause I didn't watch most of them. Can you send me the finals games and I'll root through them? sent ...where exactly? the email listed on your youtube channel.
Fantastic. Thank you very much. Hybrid and I will probably be doing around 3 or 4 casts tonight.
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What exactly is a high level bronze player exactly? I really don't understand this concept, you are at the top of your bronze league but you're not silver yet? So you're at the top of the bottom league? Is this due to playing no games? I get the idea since you say high level Bronze you actively play just aren't very good at it. I'm just confused by the concept here, you are yourself stuck in bronze but are going to help other people get out of bronze?
It just seems counter intuitive in that you need to experience getting out of bronze/silver before you can help people get out of bronze/silver otherwise how do people know that you even know what you speak of?
edit: Just to clarify seems like bad marketing to me and it makes me rage.
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On September 13 2010 07:26 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
What exactly is a high level bronze player exactly? I really don't understand this concept, you are at the top of your bronze league but you're not silver yet? So you're at the top of the bottom league? Is this due to playing no games? I get the idea since you say high level Bronze you actively play just aren't very good at it. I'm just confused by the concept here, you are yourself stuck in bronze but are going to help other people get out of bronze?
It just seems counter intuitive in that you need to experience getting out of bronze/silver before you can help people get out of bronze/silver otherwise how do people know that you even know what you speak of?
edit: Just to clarify seems like bad marketing to me and it makes me rage.
High-level bronze is when you are literally 5 games away from getting out of your Bronze league like I am. I'm facing silver league players in ladder right now. Hybrid has beaten Platinum league players while in his silver league laddering.
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Blind leading the blind?
I'll reconsider the statement. I hope it pans out. I wouldn't mind playing some games with you guys as well. The main problem is when nobody understands exactly what is going wrong and it becomes difficult to overcome bumps. However there is always the obvious areas of improvement, such as macro and mini map awareness.
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Idunno the reason I take issue is if you really don't know what you're talking about then it might do more harm than good. Getting out of the low leagues isn't really easy there are several ways you can kind of put band-aids on it and bump up one league. But to really get out of the lower leagues and up into platinum the key is working on the basics. What kind of things will you be promoting? Macro and multitasking or what? Because if it's just little tricks those can only get you so far until you have to go back and work on the core mechanics. I mean I'm not hating just because of your rank but the blind leading the blind is not a good thing so I just want to make sure you can actually offer something helpful to the players if you're going to solicit for replays like this.
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By little tricks I mean things that pros and other very high level players do that other casters will overlook.
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IDK tricks don't really have a place in trying to get promoted it really needs to be about the basics. If you work on trying to get your way up in leagues by doing micro tricks and cute tactics you'll hit a brick wall. That can only carry you so far until players can beat those easily, if a player really wants to get better at this game and be competitive while trying to get out of the low leagues they need to focus on the core of their game.
That includes but is not limited to how to develop a solid opening build order, that is how to adjust it according to what you scout. How to scout, how to understand what you're scouting. Multitasking, focusing on your macro, micro tricks and cute tactics don't get you anywhere if your core gameplay isn't there yet. How to choose good positioning on a map to engage. If your multitasking and macro abilities arent really up there kiting roaches with your hellions isn't going to win you the game in fact if you're doing that and your macro is slipping it can lose you the game easily. So I think you're better off focusing on these things instead of oh hey that was really cool try and do that.
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On September 13 2010 07:38 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Idunno the reason I take issue is if you really don't know what you're talking about then it might do more harm than good. Getting out of the low leagues isn't really easy there are several ways you can kind of put band-aids on it and bump up one league. But to really get out of the lower leagues and up into platinum the key is working on the basics. What kind of things will you be promoting? Macro and multitasking or what? Because if it's just little tricks those can only get you so far until you have to go back and work on the core mechanics. I mean I'm not hating just because of your rank but the blind leading the blind is not a good thing so I just want to make sure you can actually offer something helpful to the players if you're going to solicit for replays like this.
You don't need to be able to execute like the top players in order to understand what they're doing. That's really the key difference between each league and the next, IMO. A Diamond level player casting often talks over the head of newer players, using a lot of terminology they're not familiar with even though they're more than capable of understanding the concept if the caster could be bothered to say it in plain English. I think it's a great idea to have casts directed specifically at lower levels as long as, like you said, it's not teaching gimmicky nonsense.
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Why do people post their computer specs in places like youtube channels like this one? Is it bragging or do people regularly ask to post them?
Yeah, I would be skeptical to recommend people to follow something like this. I had no battlenet broodwar experience and I learned starcraft 2 from high level commentators. Day 9 does a great job simplifying things down to help newer players focus on major aspects of the game. But if you feel you can do this and do it well, don't let anyone's opinion stop you.
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Well, I was kind of afraid this would be combat Ex all over again, but you admitting that your not good is a start I guess.
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Woah. Why don't we just wait for a video, and then see?
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this is like getting swimming lessons from a dude who cant swim....
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Hey just because I questioned him doesn't mean he's immediately not capable of teaching anything useful I just want to make sure he's approaching this from the correct angle. -.-
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By tricks, I do not by any means mean gimmicks. We would like to teach the basic fundamental skills. Keeping minerals low, Creating or learning a build order. How to scout. How to use hotkeys correctly. Very very simple, fundamental skills that every player needs to know.
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Two things.
First, have videos up, like everyone says. Most people will check the page once. If there's nothing there, they won't look again.
Second, I definitely think there is a place for something that addresses Bronze/Silver/Gold cheese play and how to handle it. Plenty of people new to ladder get cheesed repeatedly and give up/"this game sucks". Videos addressing it,explaining what/why/how it is, would probably help keep these players in the game long enough to get over the "cheese hump" (terrible phrase but get the idea).
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On September 13 2010 08:16 chocopan wrote:
Two things.
First, have videos up, like everyone says. Most people will check the page once. If there's nothing there, they won't look again.
Second, I definitely think there is a place for something that addresses Bronze/Silver/Gold cheese play and how to handle it. Plenty of people new to ladder get cheesed repeatedly and give up/"this game sucks". Videos addressing it,explaining what/why/how it is, would probably help keep these players in the game long enough to get over the "cheese hump" (terrible phrase but get the idea).
Exactly. Void Ray Cheese is a terrible plague on the lower leagues right now that is so easily scouted and countered, but people just don't know how to see it early.
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I'd like to wish you good luck in doing your casts. I know most of the responses have been skeptical, but with my own experience of trying to teach myself Brood War when I was a noob, this sort of resource could be a very excellent way for new players to improve. I will be watching for you guys to put some content out. I wish you both the best.
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Its true that most casters assume the watchers knows a lot of things when casting. Most people here would not think twice about most of these terms, or even consider them worthy of explaining. For example: "natural", "micro/macro", "expand", "harass", "drop", "mechanics" and I'm sure a lot of other things I can't even think of because it comes fluidly when discussing the game. That's not even beginning to touch on the actual units, unit compositions and races.
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Aww that is so cute
Good luck, as long as you teach the right things (aka 100% macro and stopping cheese).
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First cast rendering. It shall be uploaded to youtube tonight.
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I will definitely look at it.
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raelcun is right basics to the game will get farther than little gimmicks. fundamentals are important in every sport and game. Master the basics then you can teach other people these basics. simple. good luck.
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On September 13 2010 10:59 flowandebb wrote:
First cast rendering. It shall be uploaded to youtube tonight.
How long does it take
Still not up yet.
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No problem with lower league players helping each other. I'm not an incredible guitarist, but I can still teach someone most of the chords and how to learn to play. I think it'll be fun even to watch some lower level games played -- not to be a jackass, but I get a kick out of seeing the mistakes others make and how it affects the game.
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For some reason it takes a really long time to upload to youtube. That and fraps makes files 62 gbs.
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On September 13 2010 13:19 flowandebb wrote:
For some reason it takes a really long time to upload to youtube. That and fraps makes files 62 gbs.
you know your suppose to change the file size, programs like windows movie maker will do that for you. Depending on quality and how long you can get the file size pretty low. Trying to upload 62gbs to youtube is going to take you forever.
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Lol. I do know that. The file I'm uploading is about 2mb but it still takes a while to compress and for some weird reason a couple hours to upload.
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F&E, or Hybridflow, I'd love to send you replays from my 3 games (win versus Hayako as Terran, and 2 losses vs Chris as Protoss), but I'm not sure how you would like me to go about doing this. Do you have an email I can send the replays to, by chance? Just let me know. Also, Karliath suggested on: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150563¤tpage=8#153
that I do a "season-style" tourney, and the problem is I'd need someone to cast it. I was thinking it might be fun to arrange for every game to be saved, and then casted via a replay rather than live, and if you're up to the challenge, that would be awesome. I could have everyone email their replays to me, and then I could forward them to you for after-the-fact casting coverage. I was thinking everyone could arrange a time each week to face off against their opponents, and send me the results and replays, and then between games, you could attempt to cast each set (every player in the tourney will likely have a Bo3 package against one opponent per week, and there will probably be 10-32 players, similar to rising cup, perhaps...)
Let me know what you think!
~DuncanIdaho
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I would definitely be up for joining and casting. Also, coincidentally, Chris sent us one of your replays and it will be our first cast.
On that note we have run into a snag with youtube stopping all progress at random point ins the uploading of your videos. Very sorry.
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I love the fact you are trying to help people. This game is very intimidating to newer players but, when you look at the grand scope of things I am not sure how much you can offer. If you have studied the game you would be out of bronze and silver. That is why I think this might be misleading.
I do hope you guys attract a ton of new players. But make sure you ONLY give them the correct advice. Not something you *think* is right. Because you being in bronze league, one can only assume you are doing the *wrong* things.
Sorry if this came off as mean. Just want to make sure you're not corrupting our player base 
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On September 13 2010 08:16 flowandebb wrote:
By tricks, I do not by any means mean gimmicks. We would like to teach the basic fundamental skills. Keeping minerals low, Creating or learning a build order. How to scout. How to use hotkeys correctly. Very very simple, fundamental skills that every player needs to know.
This sounds like a great idea. It seemed dumb to me at first, but then I saw how you brought up hotkeys and I was reminded of a conversation I had with a friend who was just picking up the game. I just finished teaching him a basic build order for Terran, and I ask "how do you set up your control groups?". He responded "control groups?". I'll definitely send my newbie friends to your youtube channel, as long as you're teaching worthwhile skills and not void ray cheeses. Good luck!
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I think it's good for new players to get advice that's relevant to them, as long as it's GOOD advice. If these guys pull it off, more power to them. I think that combining lower level replays with top loevel replays is going to be what are really useful to new players.
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I think it's great, but I don't think you're evaluating this long term.
What happens when you get to plat/diamond? Are you going to explain every single detail ... every single match... every single cast... for the chance one new person came in?
I can see this being a nice series, but not a long term deal. There is only so much you can cover before you're saying the exact same things all of the other casters are saying.
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Youtube problem still unsolved?
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While Raelcun is right about this, I think its cute. Sort of like when little kids try to act like adults.I say let them be and enjoy the show.
Kids, after all, will be kids.
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On September 14 2010 08:13 Karliath wrote:
Youtube problem still unsolved?
First upload is always a problem getting all the technology working but we have that. Its just youtube. So slow to upload.
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I'll maybe watch a few, but I just can't agree with this in principle.
If this were done by a high-level player but aimed to helping lower leagues by focusing on the basics, I could get behind it. Frankly, though, I feel like that's been done already by casters like HD and Husky.
The only reason why I can't support this is that while you're bound to get some good information out there to help noobs out, it's only natural that (as noobs yourself) you'll also be tossing out some misinformation. Noobs have a hard enough time improving as it is -- the last thing they need is bad advice from someone who sincerely doesn't even realize they're doing it.
This is like taking diet tips from a fat guy. If you're so smart, fat guy, why are you still so fat?
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I would like some of the more veteran players to watch some of our casts, just to make sure that we know what we're talking about. Please let us know if we give a little misinformation and we'll be sure to correct it as soon as possible.
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First part of first cast has been uploaded and second will soon follow i believe.
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On September 14 2010 08:24 ScienceRob wrote:
While Raelcun is right about this, I think its cute. Sort of like when little kids try to act like adults.I say let them be and enjoy the show.
Kids, after all, will be kids.
That is the most condescending thing I've ever seen.
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On September 14 2010 09:03 Toxigen wrote:
I'll maybe watch a few, but I just can't agree with this in principle.
If this were done by a high-level player but aimed to helping lower leagues by focusing on the basics, I could get behind it. Frankly, though, I feel like that's been done already by casters like HD and Husky.
I'm pretty sure HD etc aren't putting out youtube videos on what a control group is.
As regards putting out inaccurate information, well, give them a chance. I'm sure TL will be ready to inform them if they slip up
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On September 14 2010 11:06 chocopan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 09:03 Toxigen wrote:
I'll maybe watch a few, but I just can't agree with this in principle.
If this were done by a high-level player but aimed to helping lower leagues by focusing on the basics, I could get behind it. Frankly, though, I feel like that's been done already by casters like HD and Husky. I'm pretty sure HD etc aren't putting out youtube videos on what a control group is. As regards putting out inaccurate information, well, give them a chance. I'm sure TL will be ready to inform them if they slip up
Yeah seriously. Just watch a video first, then criticize all you want.
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Lol, looks like only part 2 went up, not part 1.
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I thought the video would be useful for a new player ). First part is missing though. Kind of want to see how you cover the starting builds, especially as it's something that newer players tend to mess up terribly.
Good work though! I think this kind of thing will help newer players a lot.
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On September 14 2010 12:23 Chris3093 wrote:
Lol, looks like only part 2 went up, not part 1.
Hi this is Hybrid. Basically, YouTube "processes" videos at a different rate, and it seems that Part 1 is processing slower, despite the fact it was indeed uploaded before pt. 2. Anyways, it'll be done soon, and then everyone can tell us what they think, what we need to improve on, etc.
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Btw, Im Chris in the Vid, ;D
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I am so frustrated with YouTube right now and its slowness and its processing. So annoying. We may switch to another site if the problem persists. Its such a pain to upload and takes 10 times the time than casting.
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On September 14 2010 12:51 flowandebb wrote:
I am so frustrated with YouTube right now and its slowness and its processing. So annoying. We may switch to another site if the problem persists. Its such a pain to upload and takes 10 times the time than casting.
How large is the file that your uploading, and when did you start it?
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On September 14 2010 13:13 Thegilaboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 12:51 flowandebb wrote:
I am so frustrated with YouTube right now and its slowness and its processing. So annoying. We may switch to another site if the problem persists. Its such a pain to upload and takes 10 times the time than casting. How large is the file that your uploading, and when did you start it?
About 2.2mb and 3 hours. And now its not processing part 1. We'll probably have to repost it tonight.
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On September 14 2010 13:41 flowandebb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 13:13 Thegilaboy wrote:On September 14 2010 12:51 flowandebb wrote:
I am so frustrated with YouTube right now and its slowness and its processing. So annoying. We may switch to another site if the problem persists. Its such a pain to upload and takes 10 times the time than casting. How large is the file that your uploading, and when did you start it? About 2.2mb and 3 hours. And now its not processing part 1. We'll probably have to repost it tonight.
I have similar problems of freezing occasionally when I upload my videos, unfortunately I have to restart the upload process every time it happens and it takes forever sometimes 
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I wouldn't ask a 36 handicap for any advice regarding my swing whatsoever, but perhaps you're more succesful than any of us dared to hope. GL to you both. I have some 800 pts Platinum replays sitting around, is that already too high? They should be much more fun to cast than Bronze/silver league games, in general. Still loads of things to pick from.
IGN: Helmet.938 (EU)
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I think you guys did a great job. You don't need to be a 1200 diamond to have insightful things to say to new or experienced players alike. I'm not super experienced but I didn't notice any big errors you made. 12 gateway isn't super typical -- it's a little early and involves cutting probes for about 10 minerals. The reason Duncan was mineral-low in the early midgame was because he forgot to transfer to his hatch. Of course there were some things I noticed that you didn't point out but you guys kept talking and had good things to say the whole time and you can't say everything in one game. Nice work!
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The first commentary was well done =).
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On September 13 2010 06:53 Mentymion wrote:Don't get it, how should noobs help other noobs to improve while they're actually noobs ?xD
Noob /= Newb
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On September 13 2010 07:26 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
What exactly is a high level bronze player exactly? I really don't understand this concept, you are at the top of your bronze league but you're not silver yet? So you're at the top of the bottom league? Is this due to playing no games? I get the idea since you say high level Bronze you actively play just aren't very good at it. I'm just confused by the concept here, you are yourself stuck in bronze but are going to help other people get out of bronze?
It just seems counter intuitive in that you need to experience getting out of bronze/silver before you can help people get out of bronze/silver otherwise how do people know that you even know what you speak of?
edit: Just to clarify seems like bad marketing to me and it makes me rage.
This, I believe, is what they mean by the blind leading the blind.
Srsly, there are already enough bronze level Husky-fanboys trying to cast on the internet.
Also, post some content before advertising.
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First video has been reposted as many people have already noticed. Check it out if you'd like.
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I don't understand how a bronze and silver player could possibly give useful insight into someone's play. Bronze is the lowest league, so unless you're helping out people who just bought the game a day ago, you really won't be doing anything.
I guess what I'm saying is that bronze and silver players don't really have any useful insight to give or they wouldn't still be bronze and silver, unless of course they suffer from some debilitating condition that impedes their physical clicking despite their superior intended strategies?
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On September 14 2010 22:56 hmunkey wrote:
I don't understand how a bronze and silver player could possibly give useful insight into someone's play. Bronze is the lowest league, so unless you're helping out people who just bought the game a day ago, you really won't be doing anything.
I guess what I'm saying is that bronze and silver players don't really have any useful insight to give or they wouldn't still be bronze and silver, unless of course they suffer from some debilitating condition that impedes their physical clicking despite their superior intended strategies?
Please watch one of the videos before posting so you can give us more constructive criticism, please.
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talking about a 12 gateway without explaining what it is might confuse noobs
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We will be solving some problems (i.e. One of our videos had a half of it taken off), and using the criticism from the video comments and the comments here during the cast we will do tonight: The Rising Cup Final!
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Yeah, you've gotten some criticism already about the fact that the second part of your first cast was cut off, and I see now that it wasn't intentional. Honestly, for the first cast, it was quite decent. I can tell both of you are very nervous and you can stuttering a lot but I can see the potential.
- Try and use the camera a bit more smoothly as it's quite distracting to watch.
- Some points that you made were good but things like putting up 5 gates is a little too much off 1 base is silly when sSKS does a 6gate into expand build sometimes.
There were more points, but I forgots
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You might think I'm being a little harsh here, but these are the most basic of casting things that you need to get down if you're hoping to become better.
- Get confident talking on the microphone. You both sound extremely nervous. Nervous people do not endeer the topic that they're talking about.
- Don't have a huge voice range. Going up and down heaps is so annoying and people DO notice. Especially squeeking.
- Try to think of the next point you're going to make while still talking about the previous point. Although this may (to start with at least) cause you two to overlap and microphone hog a little, it's imperitive to getting clear points of speech, and not stumbling heaps with 'umm's, and 'err's. If you are having trouble with this, watch the game with each other first, make a list of what you're going to comment on, and work off that. Don't expect to just blind cast.
- Decide what you want to do with this channel. Is it for shoutcasting low level games? Or is it for helping low level players become better? There's a big difference. If you're shoutcasting low level games, (ie. watching the game straight out, making small comments and mostly focusing on the action and interesting choices of the player), then it'll actually be fairly boring compared to commentating high level play. If you're making videos to explain how to get better as a low level player, then you might look at not using other peoples games at all, and actually focusing on creating your own videos to explain a point. eg. Explaining macro basics, make your point by showing 2 players doing the exact same build, one getting supply blocked (and not starting his depot until he is capped) twice on his way to 50 food. Show the difference between the times when each player reaches 50 food. Show how different the fight is when the first player pushes out at 50 food. This sort of thing.
- I feel as though you're expecting to comment on things that will relate to lower level players more than higher level players. Yes, ok, the things you say might be what is going through the lower players head, but what use is that to anyone? The reason the obvious comments are ignored by high level shoutcasters (and I'm fairly sure that's what you've been watching), is that they're either a) obvious, or b) don't make too much difference. They may be small refinements, but that's about it. And truthfully, I don't think I've failed to see a ZvAnything match on LT where the commentator failed to mention the overlord scouting across position unless said it 40 times already.
- You have to define what people actually are unaware of, compared to what they're just too slow/forget to do ingame. Almost every zerg (and I'm talking even low Bronze) is aware that they're creep is important. Anyone who's noticed the creep tumor ability on the queen knows that it's important for zerg to spread. The REASON most people don't end up doing it, is that they a) have low EAPM in-game; or b) forget it on their mental checklist. That doesn't mean you have to spend time explaining to people it's important to spread their creep, they know that. It's important to give them the tools to better incorporate that into their play. Like trying to get them into the habit of everytime they build an overlord, they spread their creep another knotch, or something silly like that.
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On September 14 2010 23:38 Wunder wrote:Yeah, you've gotten some criticism already about the fact that the second part of your first cast was cut off, and I see now that it wasn't intentional. Honestly, for the first cast, it was quite decent. I can tell both of you are very nervous and you can stuttering a lot but I can see the potential. - Try and use the camera a bit more smoothly as it's quite distracting to watch. - Some points that you made were good but things like putting up 5 gates is a little too much off 1 base is silly when sSKS does a 6gate into expand build sometimes. There were more points, but I forgots
I'd also like to expand on Wunder's point here a little.
OK. Maybe you've heard that 5 gates is too much for 1 base. But do you know why?
The amount of resources you get off of 1 base can be spent well with only 4 gateways if macro'ed correctly. Alright, well what if they're not macro'ed correctly? What if you want an excess of early units so you can fast expand quickly? What about the amount of units that come out at each time? So you may not be able to maintain 5 gates or more, but if you're not looking to just maintain and instead expand, is it alright?
It sounds like you just read somewhere '5 gates off 1 base is too much.' and took it as truth, as though it is automatically bad. If you're planning on teaching anything, you have to question your own blanket statement assumptions.
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I'm pretty sure HD etc aren't putting out youtube videos on what a control group is.
Fair enough. I hadn't even considered that as something people either would have trouble with or wouldn't know about...
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Listening to them talking about spawning pool placement for 2 minutes made me want to kill myself.
What do you think will be more useful for new players, some vague zerg simcity theorycraft or addressing the real issue of scouting rather than "wow thats a early probe scout hes going to hurt his economy. I just saw so many missed opportunities watching your video. Also oh man the high pitched voice XD.
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We've been practicing with the mic a little bit so next cast should be better.
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Guys, come on... Be nice. Perhaps they are young little fanboys, perhaps not, but you're all just a bunch of rude, fat, 35 year old nerds eating cheezy poofs, and calling for your mom to bring you the toilet pan (ooo, don't stereotype us, we can stereotype kids, but...). Yeah, whatever.
Anywho, these guys are helping to cast a league whom no one else would probably give the time of day to, and that's fine. If new players go solely to these casters for advice, then they're stupid. If they go to these guys for fun, yet to Day9, HD, Husky, et al. for true learning, all the better.
Yes, they're not as good as Day9. They never claimed to be. Get over yourselves and go get a job or something. Move out of your parent's homes, and quit raging about how stupid kids are, since they're the only things inferior to your pitiful lives.
lol
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No offense to the casters of this, as I'm a bronze player myself and wouldn't mind something that helps the noobs a bit, but this isn't cutting it. It's trying to be too advanced, while hiding under the guise of Bronze level play to get away with it. You're talking about timings like "12 gate" etc. Bronze players have no idea wtf that means.
You want to help actual noobs? Don't pretend to be HD and Husky of the Bronze league and don't cast matches. Instead, you're going to need casts that focus on things like "What is a Build Order" that goes through the entire concept at a high level. And another one that explains what Macro is. Or what Micro is, and why it's important to *eventually* get good at these thing. One that goes over hotkeys and how to use them (or transition to them from mouse clicking). Yes, the mundane things about SC2. But those are the actual noob ideas that will help Bronze playing noobs and are things that more advanced casters will not touch ("because everyone should already know that"). It's also something that you're probably good enough to actually talk about.
Basically, you're totally missing your target audience here.
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I'll agree with Vesicular on this one. I dig the idea, but I think you've got to focus on your target audience.
Maybe rather than doing caster style commentary of the game, do a Day[9] style analysis. Pause the game, explain what the player is doing, what they're doing right, what they're doing wrong, and what they could do to improve.
Take it a little slower and don't worry about talking too fast
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On September 17 2010 14:21 Gonzodamus wrote:I'll agree with Vesicular on this one. I dig the idea, but I think you've got to focus on your target audience. Maybe rather than doing caster style commentary of the game, do a Day[9] style analysis. Pause the game, explain what the player is doing, what they're doing right, what they're doing wrong, and what they could do to improve. Take it a little slower and don't worry about talking too fast
I agree that pausing the game to hit a key concept is very good, and I also agree that using the minimap and or hotkeying the hatch's, nexi, cc's for quick jumping back and forth is better than scrolling the mouse across the map and making us all dizzy (however, know that day9 has to do this because if he scrolls he flies out of the window in his cast, as he has done and apologized in his casts before**), and don't be afraid to rewind, speed things up, etc. Perhaps watching the game first (if you haven't already been doing this, perhaps you have), and then going back to point out the key transitions that won/lost the game is important, but I think you guys did a good job on the Chris vs me game, at least in getting the big picture items. I did fail in my macro, despite my micro, which inevitably lost the game, and he was up 10 harvesters and an expansion for much of the game as well. My biggest issue was probably not saturating the natural expansion with drones shortly after it was up, as perhaps I should have done, which lost the economic advantage. And yes, I was planning on a nydus with that olord, maybe even hydra harrass against his expo as well, but unfortunately I didn't last that long.
And for the record, to all of you thinking this is just bronze level play, Chris and I are both gold, and Flow and Hybrid are casting gold and below games, and I dare say they're doing just fine.
**= There's an old tale, about how a family has made their Christmas ham throughout the years. They slice off the ends and then bake it. Whenever people in the family didn't do this, they were ridiculed. Finally, one young member of the family goes to grandma in the old folks home and asks what the benefit of doing this was. She says, "Well, the pan I cooked it in was so tiny, and I had to chop off the ends to make it fit."
Moral: Don't assume that simply because the "masters" do something, that it means it is due to it being the optimal strategy in all cases. Perhaps it's simply due to a limitation for which they've found a hotfix.
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Good luck with this, stinking and trying to get better myself, I can see that sometimes the better players don't get what us noobs don't get!!
Suggesting that someone "just needs to play more" is completely counter to the modern sports methods. As a matter of fact, it's quite the contrary, for just about any sport you want to try, there are instructors who can offer input to students at all levels.
In most sports, about the worst thing you can do is practice poorly and ingrain your bad habits.
Who else is extending a helping hand to tell us what these are? Mostly what we seem to get is the elitist brush off.
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Even tho day9 doesnt go over every little detail I think you learn WAY more from those sick good players than these crappy players...
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On September 18 2010 00:19 ZaaaaaM wrote:
Even tho day9 doesnt go over every little detail I think you learn WAY more from those sick good players than these crappy players...
Yes and no, they make far fewer mistakes, and it's easy for us, watching the greats, to assume mistakes won't happen. Agreed, you get better at anything by studying under people better than you, but I don't think you can get good by just watching the best. I'm rather good at chess, I was even the president of the chess club at a major division one university, but I didn't get that way solely by watching Kasparov and Polgar...
Funny how everyone on here is an expert on how to become an expert. I should go tell one of my PhD cognitive psychology colleagues who's made a carreer out of studying the construct of expertise, that he SHOULD quit his day job and just come read this thread, because you guys have it all figured out, and there's nothing more needed by his and others' rigorous research.
lmao
But I digress. Give Flow and Hybrid advice on how to get better. Telling them to just give up because no one will possibly improve by watching them, is not helping anything, and they will continue to cast despite your portents of doom and gloom.
In fact, come watch the league games at risingleague.tk, and watch how we get better as the season goes onward. And finally, if you are a n00b, I want you to ask yourself, honestly, if you learned anything, or put things into a taxony more efficiently which helps you. Then, perhaps you'll eat your words, or more likely, deny reality.
~DuncanIdaho
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On September 14 2010 22:56 hmunkey wrote:
I don't understand how a bronze and silver player could possibly give useful insight into someone's play. Bronze is the lowest league, so unless you're helping out people who just bought the game a day ago, you really won't be doing anything.
I guess what I'm saying is that bronze and silver players don't really have any useful insight to give or they wouldn't still be bronze and silver, unless of course they suffer from some debilitating condition that impedes their physical clicking despite their superior intended strategies?
I think there may be a niche for this. It seems to me that there is a vast amount of people that bought SC2, and do not Ladder simply because they are scared. These are the players that play custom games, dota rip-offs, campaign on medium, or against AI. If you can get players like this to watch, show them the ropes a little. Maybe they will be less hesitant ladder, and actually improve their game.
I watched the cast was ok, don't have a lot to add being a pretty terrible player myself. I liked the idea that someone mentioned, of showing people how to stop cheese. It can be so disheartening as a new player to lose to a cannon rush or a proxy. Show them how to counter it so they don't give up, or start doing it themselves! Also check out Day9's Back to the basics daily (If you haven't already) I'm not saying copy everything he said, but for a new player he really simplifies the "core" mental checklist you should be focusing on in game.
A little about me, an old RTS fan (like Warcraft 2 Bnet Ed. old) Took a long hiatus (Pretty much all of SC BW) But when I heard all the hype about SC2 it gave me the RTS itch again. Trying to break out of my WoW habits (3 hotkeys ftw!) and improve my game by laddering a lot. Sitting around the top of my Silver ladder atm.
Keep with it guys.
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Our niche appears to be gone with Day9's Nooby Tuesdays starting. We'll see.
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On September 21 2010 14:15 flowandebb wrote:
Our niche appears to be gone with Day9's Nooby Tuesdays starting. We'll see.
Meh, I don't think so, there's always room for more... But ultimately, it's up to you guys.
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Are you going to push through with your cast?
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EPT
