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On August 31 2010 08:12 Highways wrote:
I think the #1 problem right now is marauders.
They are good against anything, hence every Terran game is a 1 dimensional marauder spam.
Nerf these please.
This.
Nerfin marauders would be such a great thing. I mean just buff something to compensate, maybe hsm with bigger range and faster speed or give reaper some lategame buff or something.
I don't even really know why but watching marauders is so freakin' boring. That's pretty much the only thing I have to complain about sc2 as a spectator sport
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Kinda agree wit the Maurader thing. The patch will help Z and such, but I feel there's still going to be problems, because they weren't touched. Neither was Z buff wise.
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Highways is right. Marauders break TvT and TvP. You'd expect a player stuck with tier 1 to be at a disadvantage against tier 2 and 3, but in the glorious realm of SC2, he in fact has his opponent at a disadvantage. This is simply poor design, attributable almost entirely to a single poorly conceived unit. What happens if the Marauder was weak? Protoss wouldn't be forced to build a billion units off of one base, and Terran wouldn't be forced to do the same in response. We'd see more quick expansion builds and longer, better macro games. TvT is even worse, because you're forced to build Marauders throughout the game or have very little chance of winning. They are simply far too effective vs buildings and mech for their cost.
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i love watching sc2  dont think its boring at all
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How do marauders break TvT? It's tanks that break it...
EDIT: And I don't think it's boring. Wasn't MMM ball all anybody did at the beginning of the beta, and it changed over time after that? I think the game will continue to evolve. Furthermore, what makes a game "exciting" has a lot more to do with unit composition. I think Morrow's play vs Idra in the IEM tournament was very exciting.
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sc2 is currently getting more and more boring for me.
i personally blame mostly the terrible small maps but some other issues take part in this too.
i jsut cant stand all the shitty allins and "cheese" games anymore. what i like about sc was the fight for important areas, big macro fights, impressive micro etc.
now we see mass MMM or 4gate shit aclicked into the enemy till it dies in like 75% of the matches. where is the impressive macro? where are the constant fights for control of a piece of terrain? where is the impressive micro ? (and no, spamming psistorm or kiting with mmm is not impressive micro)
the few games that actually get to 3bases or more are usually way better but sits rare.
imho sc2s gameplay currently centers around gimmicks,cheese and allins. which was fun at the start. but the 40th time you see a Z die to 4gate aclick on blistering or a P to early rauder pushes its plain boring. no matter if you watch it, are the one losing or the one winning (im random. i know all the situations from both sides).
blizzard seems to actually promote that. with their announced changes and with them beeing happy with their terrible mappool. if nothing about that changes (either from blizz side or the community in some way) in the next 1-2 months guess ill just quit.
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On August 31 2010 08:56 HalfAmazing wrote:
Highways is right. Marauders break TvT and TvP. You'd expect a player stuck with tier 1 to be at a disadvantage against tier 2 and 3, but in the glorious realm of SC2, he in fact has his opponent at a disadvantage. This is simply poor design, attributable almost entirely to a single poorly conceived unit. What happens if the Marauder was weak? Protoss wouldn't be forced to build a billion units off of one base, and Terran wouldn't be forced to do the same in response. We'd see more quick expansion builds and longer, better macro games. TvT is even worse, because you're forced to build Marauders throughout the game or have very little chance of winning. They are simply far too effective vs buildings and mech for their cost.
So how do you fix poor design?
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On August 31 2010 09:36 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
sc2 is currently getting more and more boring for me.
i personally blame mostly the terrible small maps but some other issues take part in this too.
i jsut cant stand all the shitty allins and "cheese" games anymore. what i like about sc was the fight for important areas, big macro fights, impressive micro etc.
now we see mass MMM or 4gate shit aclicked into the enemy till it dies in like 75% of the matches. where is the impressive macro? where are the constant fights for control of a piece of terrain? where is the impressive micro ? (and no, spamming psistorm or kiting with mmm is not impressive micro)
the few games that actually get to 3bases or more are usually way better but sits rare.
imho sc2s gameplay currently centers around gimmicks,cheese and allins. which was fun at the start. but the 40th time you see a Z die to 4gate aclick on blistering or a P to early rauder pushes its plain boring. no matter if you watch it, are the one losing or the one winning (im random. i know all the situations from both sides).
blizzard seems to actually promote that. with their announced changes and with them beeing happy with their terrible mappool. if nothing about that changes (either from blizz side or the community in some way) in the next 1-2 months guess ill just quit.
I do agree with this. I think the races are very well balanced and well thought-out for the most part (the reaper is broken in TvZ). It's the maps that promote all-in plays or cheesy tactics.
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at this point i feel its less exciting to watch then REALLY good BW players, but I don't think its really a fault of the game more so the skill of the players currently playing sc2. BW professional have the game to a science they can't really do rather boring 1 base safe plays to win because people know how to exploit every aspect of that game. Once sc2 develops in the next few years I fully expect for sc2 to be just as exciting.
Even professionals are still learning sc2.
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To be honest, I am truly stunned that Blizzard still cannot seem to see how outright ridiculous the marauder is - they are by far the most broken unit in the game. Its not even about whining that Terran is OP or anything, but because of how insanely powerful the marauder is, there really is not that much incentive for Terran players to get anything else but them as the core unit. Massing a T1 unit which can handle T2/T3 units of other races on more than an even scale just isn't particularly fun to watch.
I think they should be designed to be somewhat similar to the Warcraft 3 Orc wolf raider - the concussive shell should be like ensare, manually casted with a limit imo. It promotes more micro and tense moments to see if the terran players reaction with the marauder would be able to stun the retreating/incoming unit in time etc. Wolf raiders were also good against buildings, but did crap damage against almost every other unit. Thats how units should be, strengths and weaknesses, and frankly, there is almost no weakness with the marauder right now (especially for a T1 unit) aside from their inability to hit air.
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my PvT is still counter marauders but the games are going more into mid-late games now (20+ minutes) which I must say very nice when you can just keep macro up and strategy to win the game.
It's just the game is so young (1 month release + beta ) and people want to win they are competetively thus they stick with the method that will grant them a lot of wins.
It won't help those people on the long run but they are thinking like why change a winning method.
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On August 31 2010 09:36 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
i personally blame mostly the terrible small maps but some other issues take part in this too.
i disagree.
for example, in PvT, a protoss is almost forced the one base because of the treat of early marauder preasure, if he FEs and the terran feels like he can just walk in with a handfull of marauders and snipes the nexus, wich in turns spells GG for the protoss player.
the toss can only expand well once he reaches T3.
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I love watching SC2. I used to be a SC1 addict and I just don't get the same enjoyment at all watching it at all anymore.
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On August 31 2010 09:18 Subversion wrote:i love watching sc2 dont think its boring at all
word.
i dont even play much atm, just watchin replays and tournaments... also dont care for other games or upcoming games. and its fun.
its the opposite with soccer for me. i hate watching soccer on telivision but love playing it.
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On August 31 2010 09:58 PulseSUI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 09:36 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
i personally blame mostly the terrible small maps but some other issues take part in this too.
i disagree. for example, in PvT, a protoss is almost forced the one base because of the treat of early marauder preasure, if he FEs and the terran feels like he can just walk in with a handfull of marauders and snipes the nexus, wich in turns spells GG for the protoss player. the toss can only expand well once he reaches T3.
How are people this stupid?
HE'S SAYING THE MAPS ARE TOO SMALL. If the maps were bigger do you think a handful of marauders would arrive in time to stop the FE? The map pool right now promotes extremely aggressive builds by terran (the turtle race) which is causing problems for P and Z due to the balance design of the races (referring to 200/200 supply counts).
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Vanilla StarCraft is also boring. It has very little strategic diversity compared to Brood War (not to mention that it's imbalanced). Also, look at Reign of Chaos. Is vanilla WarCraft III really a good game compared to The Frozen Throne?
I'm not a huge fan of SC2 (I think it's an ok game but not as good as Brood War) but I still won't judge it untill the expansions are out.
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Yes, SC2 is boring to watch. I know the expansions aren't out yet, but none of the pros are playing with the same mindset as when Starcraft came out. People know what to look for this time around and it's just not there at the moment. Maybe there will be a few different build orders invented, but its difficult to see much more than one-base strategies being useful.
To the secondary... "topic" in here, take stim away from Marauders.
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On August 31 2010 09:58 PulseSUI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 09:36 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
i personally blame mostly the terrible small maps but some other issues take part in this too.
i disagree. for example, in PvT, a protoss is almost forced the one base because of the treat of early marauder preasure, if he FEs and the terran feels like he can just walk in with a handfull of marauders and snipes the nexus, wich in turns spells GG for the protoss player. the toss can only expand well once he reaches T3.
Uh a bigger map means it takes longer for the units to get there allowing you to FE with much more safety...
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EPT
