On September 25 2010 22:18 McFoo wrote: EU and NA would have a much bigger RTS scene if FPS games weren't stealing the spotlight. Damn that American entertainment that has got everyone hooked on guns. RTS games > FPS games in terms of how good they are as spectator sports.
Indeed! Also the skill cap on RTS is like enormous in comparison to FPS, where good reflexes in a braindead body probably could make anyone the best player in the world. Slight exaggeration, but you get the picture. RTS needs.. strategy. The one problem with RTS imho, from own experience, and when it comes to friends who I try to get playing sc2, is that the learning curve is pretty horrible.. If you don't look up build orders and such, you'll probably lose 99/100 games, while FPS and, even more so, RPGs are much more tolerant to noobs. It's actually quite intimidating to play RTS, especially with all the cheesing going on. Playing a couple of games, losing instantly and being placed in bronze league actually made my friend quit the game and going back to wow, stating that sc2 is boring
Yeah RTS is intimidating and you really need a community like TL that provides info for new players. Watching replays is important too. I don't necessarily agree that RTS has a much bigger skill cap than FPS, i'mnot really sure. FPS does require some strategy and obviously great mechanics. Same goes for fighters like Street Fighter. Fighters are good spectator sports too. Quake Live is better to watch than Counter Strike IMO:
That video!!!!WOW i was like. omg zero u suck brah. i watched it the other day actually i was looking for old WCG videos and stuff. found that watched it, now i wonna play
On September 25 2010 22:18 McFoo wrote: EU and NA would have a much bigger RTS scene if FPS games weren't stealing the spotlight. Damn that American entertainment that has got everyone hooked on guns. RTS games > FPS games in terms of how good they are as spectator sports.
Indeed! Also the skill cap on RTS is like enormous in comparison to FPS, where good reflexes in a braindead body probably could make anyone the best player in the world. Slight exaggeration, but you get the picture. RTS needs.. strategy. The one problem with RTS imho, from own experience, and when it comes to friends who I try to get playing sc2, is that the learning curve is pretty horrible.. If you don't look up build orders and such, you'll probably lose 99/100 games, while FPS and, even more so, RPGs are much more tolerant to noobs. It's actually quite intimidating to play RTS, especially with all the cheesing going on. Playing a couple of games, losing instantly and being placed in bronze league actually made my friend quit the game and going back to wow, stating that sc2 is boring
Yeah RTS is intimidating and you really need a community like TL that provides info for new players. Watching replays is important too. I don't necessarily agree that RTS has a much bigger skill cap than FPS, i'mnot really sure. FPS does require some strategy and obviously great mechanics. Same goes for fighters like Street Fighter. Fighters are good spectator sports too. Quake Live is better to watch than Counter Strike IMO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DreDIhnK-co
That is so incredibly bad, half of the game isn't even skill it's just spawn camping and getting lucky with weapons/armour. The only skill is pretty much equal to quick scoping in call of duty games which most good players can do.
that's why people who have never played a fps game at a high level shouldn't post anything about high level fps games. you definitely have no clue about timing (lol @ getting lucky with weapons/armor), map control, movement in combination with sick aiming. there are more mind games in it as you would think. plz stop talking about this, it hurts.
On September 25 2010 22:18 McFoo wrote: EU and NA would have a much bigger RTS scene if FPS games weren't stealing the spotlight. Damn that American entertainment that has got everyone hooked on guns. RTS games > FPS games in terms of how good they are as spectator sports.
Indeed! Also the skill cap on RTS is like enormous in comparison to FPS, where good reflexes in a braindead body probably could make anyone the best player in the world. Slight exaggeration, but you get the picture. RTS needs.. strategy. The one problem with RTS imho, from own experience, and when it comes to friends who I try to get playing sc2, is that the learning curve is pretty horrible.. If you don't look up build orders and such, you'll probably lose 99/100 games, while FPS and, even more so, RPGs are much more tolerant to noobs. It's actually quite intimidating to play RTS, especially with all the cheesing going on. Playing a couple of games, losing instantly and being placed in bronze league actually made my friend quit the game and going back to wow, stating that sc2 is boring
Yeah RTS is intimidating and you really need a community like TL that provides info for new players. Watching replays is important too. I don't necessarily agree that RTS has a much bigger skill cap than FPS, i'mnot really sure. FPS does require some strategy and obviously great mechanics. Same goes for fighters like Street Fighter. Fighters are good spectator sports too. Quake Live is better to watch than Counter Strike IMO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DreDIhnK-co
That is so incredibly bad, half of the game isn't even skill it's just spawn camping and getting lucky with weapons/armour. The only skill is pretty much equal to quick scoping in call of duty games which most good players can do.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Spawn camping isn't possible in QL as the players always spawn far from each other, it allows the players to be clever and force the other player to spawn in certain locations. Hektik, the map played in the video, is a rare exception in that the players can spawn somewhat close to each other allowing for opportunities to tie frags in to each other.
Timing items is a huge part of Quake and it's not at all random, the items respawn after a certain amount of seconds and the top players know exactly when they're supposed to be there to get the items. The item system allows for a lot of trickery as the players can delay the items by not picking them up immediately and thus confusing their opponent in to trying to challenge for the item earlier than they're supposed to when the next item spawn takes place.
Quakes are without a doubt some of the most deep FPS games and there's a lot more to it than just what you can see on the screen if you have no experience playing yourself.
edit: Oh, this isn't even the Quake topic, lets leave discussion about that game there.
On September 26 2010 12:09 bonedriven wrote: That Japan doesn't like E-Sports at all is always a mystery to me.
Hope someone could enlighten me.
Street Fighter and other fighting games "esports" is rather big in Japan, afaik. computer gaming isn't very popular there compared to consoles so the games they play differ a bit. It would definitely be nice to see them compete in SC2.
On September 25 2010 23:09 RotterdaM wrote: Netherlands are gonna surprise many people as soon as the real nation wars are gonna start, Servyoa Ret NTT and nazghul if he keeps playing are all sickly good, wait and see :D
I doubt that we see china in competetive gaming anytime soon. The country is still poor and living is very expensive there for chinese (But it's quite different... food is cheap, rent is really expensive). And if they finally start playing in a competetive way they prolly cant mess with other countries, because of their goverment.
In germany gaming becomes slowly social accepted. From what i know from my friends, their friends, familie and so on gaming is growing and with that the count of people who investing a lot of time. Even wifes/girlfriends are now accepting gaming as a hobby (... slowly i must say - and they even playing themselfes or testing it out) and the younger generations are growing up with games. This change came with WoW as more "common" people started to play and switched to other games. Nothing strange anymore with 50 year old people playing MMORPGs or even FPS. When it comes to people who dedicate their lifes to competetive computer gaming, yes, germany is a good place to be. As said you get monthly a certain amount of money for living if you don't have any work with some restrictions (you HAVE to apply somewhere and try hardly to get a job), but still you have a lot of time for gaming. From my point of view, it's still stupid as hell... And currently there is a shift by our politics: Away from "the bad bad bad computer games" to "yeah, computer games". Politics start realizing that computer games become part of our culture and accepting it (even so... again slowly... but there a prices for best german computer games and they are getting bigger) and they start to look at the benefits and the problemes (computer addiction is, as far as i know, a probleme health insurance is taking care of). So or so with GamesCon (Cologne) we have one of the biggest gaming event in the world (plus the games convention in leipzig) plus the growing acceptance and appearance (TV-Advertisement for example) of computer games my guess would be that more and more good german gamers are about to come - time will tell...
Well i hope you now have a good insight of this topic when it comes down to germany with this post and some of the more detailled one before.
For now my guess would be USA > Europe > Korea For the future: Korea > Europe = USA
On September 25 2010 22:18 McFoo wrote: EU and NA would have a much bigger RTS scene if FPS games weren't stealing the spotlight. Damn that American entertainment that has got everyone hooked on guns. RTS games > FPS games in terms of how good they are as spectator sports.
Indeed! Also the skill cap on RTS is like enormous in comparison to FPS, where good reflexes in a braindead body probably could make anyone the best player in the world. Slight exaggeration, but you get the picture. RTS needs.. strategy. The one problem with RTS imho, from own experience, and when it comes to friends who I try to get playing sc2, is that the learning curve is pretty horrible.. If you don't look up build orders and such, you'll probably lose 99/100 games, while FPS and, even more so, RPGs are much more tolerant to noobs. It's actually quite intimidating to play RTS, especially with all the cheesing going on. Playing a couple of games, losing instantly and being placed in bronze league actually made my friend quit the game and going back to wow, stating that sc2 is boring
Yeah RTS is intimidating and you really need a community like TL that provides info for new players. Watching replays is important too. I don't necessarily agree that RTS has a much bigger skill cap than FPS, i'mnot really sure. FPS does require some strategy and obviously great mechanics. Same goes for fighters like Street Fighter. Fighters are good spectator sports too. Quake Live is better to watch than Counter Strike IMO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DreDIhnK-co
That is so incredibly bad, half of the game isn't even skill it's just spawn camping and getting lucky with weapons/armour. The only skill is pretty much equal to quick scoping in call of duty games which most good players can do.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Spawn camping isn't possible in QL as the players always spawn far from each other, it allows the players to be clever and force the other player to spawn in certain locations. Hektik, the map played in the video, is a rare exception in that the players can spawn somewhat close to each other allowing for opportunities to tie frags in to each other.
Timing items is a huge part of Quake and it's not at all random, the items respawn after a certain amount of seconds and the top players know exactly when they're supposed to be there to get the items. The item system allows for a lot of trickery as the players can delay the items by not picking them up immediately and thus confusing their opponent in to trying to challenge for the item earlier than they're supposed to when the next item spawn takes place.
Quakes are without a doubt some of the most deep FPS games and there's a lot more to it than just what you can see on the screen if you have no experience playing yourself.
edit: Oh, this isn't even the Quake topic, lets leave discussion about that game there.
On September 26 2010 12:09 bonedriven wrote: That Japan doesn't like E-Sports at all is always a mystery to me.
Hope someone could enlighten me.
Street Fighter and other fighting games "esports" is rather big in Japan, afaik. computer gaming isn't very popular there compared to consoles so the games they play differ a bit. It would definitely be nice to see them compete in SC2.
Indeed, they have a yearly Tougeki tournament (aka SBO for Super Battle Opera) where they play games like, for instance this year was Street Fighter 4, Tekken 6 Bloodline Rebellion, The King of Fighter 2002 Unlimited Match, Virtua Fighter 5R, Blazblue Continuum Shift, Arcana Heart 3, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Street Fighter III 3rd Strike, Sengoku Basara X, Super Street Fighter II X, The King of Fighters XIII and Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code. Never heard of these games? Arcade games that are popular in Japan. Guess what guys, FPS and RTS games aren't popular in Japan!
They have around 4 months of preliminary tournaments where players and teams try to earn their spot to the finals. SBO always has representatives from the US, EU, Korea and Hong Kong but those teams and players pretty much always get eliminated on the first round of the finals that are usually 32 best teams or players. Probably Tekken is the only game where Koreans have a chance as far as I know. But in the more technical games like Guilty Gear and Blazblue, foreigners don't stand a chance.
There isn't a pro-scene in Japan but SBO is a pretty big tournament and definitely the top of the world. It also gets released on multiple DVDs with all the matches from round of 32 -> finals or whatever was played in the final tournament.
Some arcades have weekly tournaments with small prizes like a-cho in Osaka. Other small tournaments are also running all the time but yeah I don't think I need to go to any more detail about that. It's not a pro-scene as in the players don't make a living. They do it mostly for fun.
Street Fighter and other fighting games "esports" is rather big in Japan, afaik. computer gaming isn't very popular there compared to consoles so the games they play differ a bit. It would definitely be nice to see them compete in SC2.
If it can be played in an arcade, then the japanese are the best at it.
Street Fighter and other fighting games "esports" is rather big in Japan, afaik. computer gaming isn't very popular there compared to consoles so the games they play differ a bit. It would definitely be nice to see them compete in SC2.
If it can be played in an arcade, then the japanese are the best at it.
Not true at all. Korea has a huge arcade gaming scene. Infact Koreans have been the best at the Tekken series for about 10 years now. Although Japan seem to be the best at Street Fighter.
To note: - The Winner of the MLG (HuK) didn't survive the group stage. - GSL Ro64 Player (Artosis) didn't survive the group stage. - A lot of European Players at the tournament.
Now, everything shifts to: Korea (with IdrA) > Europe > US = Canada
To note: - A lot of US American Players at the tournament. - Socke is the only European Player at the tournament.
Therefore: Korea (with IdrA) > Europe > Canada > US
And anyone who doubts: Socke is only placed 10th in the German ESL Pro Series at the moment.
If you wanna get more specific: Korea (with IdrA) > Sweden >= Germany > Canada >= Ukraine > US.
If you wanna count Demuslim, Naniwa as Germans (since they live here to play at the EPS): Korea (with IdrA) > Germany >= Sweden > Canada >= Ukraine > US.
He is right in the fact that the US should have by far the most top players based sheerly on population... And in general they probably have the most competitive players. But it terms of absolute cream of the crop, I dont think there is a single american player up there aside from Idra. (but hes IN korea so thats a little different.)
That said, its not like Canada, Sweden, Germany have anything really cream of the crop either.
Canada has Huk as the top foreign protoss, but even that is arguable. Sweden has who? Morrow, Haypro, Jinro? all fantastic players, but all very beatable on any given day, I wouldnt rank any of them of them as the best Foreign Terran. Germany has TLO, who is great to watch, but again I wouldnt rank him the top foreign terran. In fact, the only 2 people I would label as a top ranked foreigner would be Idra as Zerg and Huk as protoss. I dont think I could really choose a top ranked terran from anywhere that wins more consistantly than other terrans.
On August 26 2010 00:52 Ketara wrote: Part of it is that it's easier in some of those countries to spend all your time gaming.
I've been told by my Swedish and German friends before that some people in said countries only work every other year, live off of welfare programs on the off-years, and spend that time playing WoW and other games.
TLO quit college in order to play Starcraft. From an Americans perspective, that seems crazy as hell to do, especially before you get some sort of pro contract. In order to make a living off of starcraft you'd have to be winning a major tournament every month here, and even that might only barely pay the bills.
But in Germany I think it's possible to actually do that.
Don't want to turn this into a political discussion btw, just sayin'
It's the same in Germany... not doing anything a year looks horrible in the résumé.
EPT
