EPTAn impossible unit or what?
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 995
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
An impossible unit or what? | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:59 shell wrote: First of all let me congratulate you on your nickname because calling yourself sueco and being a swede is awesome ;D (sueco is swedish in portuguese) your post is really good and brings out some excelent post. I guess the speed overlords without the lair and faster spines would balance the inicial stage of the game for zergs! BTW everyone should watch nestea vs anypro because this series will open some eyes!! if you can't watch check out the battle report in here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219513 Hehe thanks. I'm actually half-Chilean and grew up in Chile, where my buddies called me el Sueco (the swede). After a gazillion awesome LAN parties it became my gamer tag. I'm glad you appreciated the finer points I was trying to bring across. Will be making a test map to try out these ideas in practice, just need to get my head around the galaxy editor. Look out for future posts. Obrigado! | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
On May 05 2011 23:59 gnutz wrote: What is a Stalker if a Roach is too big, too costly and too supply-inefficient? An impossible unit or what? A 6-range unit with high movement speed, regenerating shields and an awesome upgrade. There's a reason pure roach gets screwed by 4-gate stalkers. Fat DPS ain't everything. Oh and they can actually shoot up. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On May 05 2011 19:53 LittLeD wrote: GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler + NesTea owning the field. IdrA, take notice + Show Spoiler + NesTea also lost a BO3 to a random (and from what I saw, far from refined) Chinese protoss, in starswars. Individual matches/isolated events are not the best evidence. Also, IdrA isn't saying that zerg can't win. He's saying that zergs are forced to guess. Please actually listen to what someone says before you try to prove them wrong... | ||
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
On May 06 2011 00:05 Beef Noodles wrote: + Show Spoiler + NesTea also lost a BO3 to a random (and from what I saw, far from refined) Chinese protoss, in starswars. Individual matches/isolated events are not the best evidence. Also, IdrA isn't saying that zerg can't win. He's saying that zergs are forced to guess. Please actually listen to what someone says before you try to prove them wrong... wait. why say isolated events arent the best evidence but than bring up an isolated event lol | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 23:57 Sueco wrote: A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against. This applies to roaches. No, you can't bust a ramp, but you can bust a nat on most maps. Many zergs have been doing this of late because the Protoss are being greedy. B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose. Yep. Even applies to junk like Archons with like no range. Certainly applies to roaches. C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression. Why should Zergs have better early AA praytell? Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS, Better than stalkers. low speed But you want hydras...roaches are faster than anything Protoss gets. and a large size, meaning they still have trouble dealing with defensive buildings/terrain and that they lose a firefight with units that can reach better ranged power multipliers, such as a marines. And of course, they can't hit air. They have to have a downside somewhere. No, they aren't as good at killing shit as marines. They don't get vaporised by the first piece of aoe that breaths on them, though. So yes, what - exactly - do you want hydras to do that roaches don't, and why would this be fair? The only hatch-hydra I can imagine would either make the roach obsolete and/or be too strong, or it would do nothing a roach can't do and thus be useless. | ||
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XaCez
Sweden6991 Posts
On May 06 2011 00:04 Sueco wrote: A 6-range unit with high movement speed, regenerating shields and an awesome upgrade. There's a reason pure roach gets screwed by 4-gate stalkers. Fat DPS ain't everything. Oh and they can actually shoot up. Roaches with Glial Reconstitution are always faster than Stalkers, have an upgrade that requires detection to hit them and provides a 10hp/second regen along with a passive regen while costing only half of a Stalker and comes 5 seconds faster than one. You see, it's very easy to list things and try to make a point with them, but that doesn't make them valid arguments. | ||
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MajorityofOne
Canada2506 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10884 Posts
Zerg just lacks a defensive advantage so early scouting is more important. Terran can screw up (some) and hide behind Bunkers or/and a Wall in. Protoss can screw up (some) and hide behind FF's/Buildings. Zerg can screw up (some) and will die. I doubt that any patch will change that until at least Hots... | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against. This applies to roaches. No, you can't bust a ramp, but you can bust a nat on most maps. Many zergs have been doing this of late because the Protoss are being greedy. Not really. A stalker push can crush a cannon FE. They are larger units than roaches but the fact that they have 6 range means that they can survive extensive forcefields and well-positioned blocking buildings. Roaches are MUCH more easily controlled and denied, particularly by forcefields. Ramps completely swing any fight away from roaches assuming your opponent hasn't been completely greedy and made no units. When roaches attack, in t1, they are also slower units which even further compounds their semi-melee status. B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose. .Yep. Even applies to junk like Archons with like no range. Certainly applies to roaches Yes, and that power multiplier is very visible in how a blob of roaches handles melee units like zealots or zerglings. When faced by P&T's superior-ranged T1 units, the roaches get the short end of the shaft. This is why simple mass gateway/bio army pushes can crush zerg, their units are capable of reaching a firepower multiplier very early in the game that roaches can never match due to their short range, large size and low speed. Add in clever terrain/forcefield/bunker use and roaches get completely outclassed. C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression. Why should Zergs have better early AA praytell? Not better, equal. Baseline units that can be produced quickly in response to unscouted air. T&P have them, queen's aren't that unit. Sure, queens are great AA when you have a few of them and they have had time to build up energy. They still can´t attack worth jack and are too slowly produced to be used as a reaction to proxy air, which forces the multiple queen vs an actual army coin flip. Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS, Better than stalkers. Statswise, yes. Roaches still lose to early air, and get screwed by a decent simcity. Add in better power multiplier for stalkers and their superior speed, yeah. low speed But you want hydras...roaches are faster than anything Protoss gets. With the T2 upgrade, yes. We're discussing early game, the first 10 minutes. T1-1.5. So yes, what - exactly - do you want hydras to do that roaches don't, and why would this be fair? The only hatch-hydra I can imagine would either make the roach obsolete and/or be too strong, or it would do nothing a roach can't do and thus be useless. T1 hydras would free up roaches to be remade into the regenerating tank, micro-encouraging unit that they never became, probably as a t2 unit. This is because a 75/25 roach is too cheap to be worth saving with micro. That APM is better spent macroing more roaches. A design intent failure. Hydras would of course have to be balanced so that a t1 gateway or bio army can trade evenly with them. We're not asking for t2 hydras in t1, please get that into your head. Bottom line is this: If you ever saw a classic BW hydra push you'd see how much the T1 roach gimps Zerg agression. It's not because BW hydras were superior, unbeatable units, which is what you seem to believe. | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
On May 06 2011 00:02 Sueco wrote: [+ Show Spoiler + QUOTE]On May 05 2011 22:59 shell wrote: On May 05 2011 22:21 Sueco wrote: + Show Spoiler + As a Zerg player I partially agree with Idra, but: Zerg scouting isn't that inferior if you compare it objectively. True, a wall-in and stalkers/marines patrolling the walls will easily deny scouting, but look at the situation for the other races at the 8 min mark. Once zerglings are out, zerg players can deny scouting workers with relative ease. Observers are excellent scouts but their tech level puts them on par with overlord speed or overseers. Terrans have the allmighty scan but it at least has some cost in the form of lost income, and one scan doesn't really reveal everything. Point is, all races have imperfect scouting. In my opinion, that is as it should be. Perfect scouting would mean a lot of boring macro games. Part of the game is the hiding of information and the use of surprise through the fog of war. So, scouting is where it should be in this game. Here's where Idra hits it head on: Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive. While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose. Watch pro replays, most of the time Zerg has map control for the first 10 minutes of the game. Zerglings on towers, zerglings near the ramp, one or two overlords hanging outside the base. Watch the T PoV. Very little information aside from wether there is an expansion or not, and whether one or two tech buildings are present. They are never very worried about their lack of information because they know most kind of agressions Z can put out are easily handled with a bunker or two or a forcefield. They then go for a blind timing attack and usually either break even, come out ahead or outright win because Z needs to know exactly whats coming in order to defend it at all. --------------------------- What's the solution? Well, here we go into more speculative territory. My take is: Zerg is the only race that lacks a proper ranged attacker in their basic T1-1.5 lineup. This is the key reason Zerg lacks safe builds and early agression options. A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against. B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose. C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression. Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS and a large size, meaning they still have trouble dealing with defensive buildings/terrain and that they lose a firefight with units that can reach better ranged power multipliers, such as a marines. And of course, they can't hit air. I'm sorry to repeat a tired old Zerg mantra, but it's true: BW Hydras please. First of all let me congratulate you on your nickname because calling yourself sueco and being a swede is awesome ;D (sueco is swedish in portuguese) your post is really good and brings out some excelent post. I guess the speed overlords without the lair and faster spines would balance the inicial stage of the game for zergs! BTW everyone should watch nestea vs anypro because this series will open some eyes!! if you can't watch check out the battle report in here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219513 Hehe thanks. I'm actually half-Chilean and grew up in Chile, where my buddies called me el Sueco (the swede). After a gazillion awesome LAN parties it became my gamer tag. I'm glad you appreciated the finer points I was trying to bring across. Will be making a test map to try out these ideas in practice, just need to get my head around the galaxy editor. Look out for future posts. Obrigado! [/QUOTE] haha nice story that makes sense! | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On May 06 2011 00:05 Beef Noodles wrote: + Show Spoiler + NesTea also lost a BO3 to a random (and from what I saw, far from refined) Chinese protoss, in starswars. Individual matches/isolated events are not the best evidence. Also, IdrA isn't saying that zerg can't win. He's saying that zergs are forced to guess. Please actually listen to what someone says before you try to prove them wrong... I dont really understand idra's point though, when comparing zerg and protoss after the intial probe/ drone scout. Both are left in the dark for a similair peroid of time, zergs have an extra option to sac an overlord in the mid early game to see whats going on, after the initial probe scout protoss have to wait until 1) hallucination 2) an obs from a robo zergs also can get map control fairly easily with speed lings during this early portion of the game and they can constantly poke the ramp. This sounds way more favorable scouting wise than protoss in the early game, and entering the mid game (where both lair robo and or hallucination should be up) both have a number of options saccing an overlord speed or otherwise (since sacing more than one overlord in the early game wouldnt be very smart) overseers and changelings. Other than that say protoss is using a very common build the 3 gate sentry expand , they get about 6 sentries a zealot and 3 stalkers and have the option to go poke at the zerg at this point to either force units or pick off a few things. This can be extremely risky, if the zerg has sufficent units and you immediately back up without doing any damage it is very easy for speedlings to follow you back and pick off your sentries as you are heading back to your base, i see less and less protoss choosing to apply pressure at this point in the game if they went for the oh so common 3 gate sentry, as it is extremely risky to lose all your sentries. Am i missing something here? why is zerg so much worse off scouting wise when on paper they seem to have far better scouting potential than protoss in the early game and coming into the mid. Both have a similair period of time where they are playing blind, so i dont really see what the problem is both have all in strategies they could be looking to execute during this time , its a matter of how well you prepare for it. getting sentries to stay safe put protoss behind in tech for alot longer than some might think 100 gas is nothing to snuff at, sentries are obviously worth it as they are awesome units though ^^ | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On May 06 2011 00:48 cheesemaster wrote: I dont really understand idra's point though, when comparing zerg and protoss after the intial probe/ drone scout. Both are left in the dark for a similair peroid of time, zergs have an extra option to sac an overlord in the mid early game to see whats going on, after the initial probe scout protoss have to wait until 1) hallucination 2) an obs from a robo zergs also can get map control fairly easily with speed lings during this early portion of the game and they can constantly poke the ramp. This sounds way more favorable scouting wise than protoss in the early game, and entering the mid game (where both lair robo and or hallucination should be up) both have a number of options saccing an overlord speed or otherwise (since sacing more than one overlord in the early game wouldnt be very smart) overseers and changelings. Other than that say protoss is using a very common build the 3 gate sentry expand , they get about 6 sentries a zealot and 3 stalkers and have the option to go poke at the zerg at this point to either force units or pick off a few things. This can be extremely risky, if the zerg has sufficent units and you immediately back up without doing any damage it is very easy for speedlings to follow you back and pick off your sentries as you are heading back to your base, i see less and less protoss choosing to apply pressure at this point in the game if they went for the oh so common 3 gate sentry, as it is extremely risky to lose all your sentries. Am i missing something here? why is zerg so much worse off scouting wise when on paper they seem to have far better scouting potential than protoss in the early game and coming into the mid. Both have a similair period of time where they are playing blind, so i dont really see what the problem is both have all in strategies they could be looking to execute during this time , its a matter of how well you prepare for it. getting sentries to stay safe put protoss behind in tech for alot longer than some might think 100 gas is nothing to snuff at, sentries are obviously worth it as they are awesome units though ^^ the point he wants to make is that protoss and terran have safe builds and good units that make this period ok. Zerg does not have safe builds nor are their units any good the first 6 minutes in the game. In every ZvX the zerg is walking a thin line between army and drones while terran and protoss get to chill and make sentries / marines and do whatever they want. Unless the zerg decided to allinn but that usually ends up failing because of good wallinns, great micro, forcefields etc. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 06 2011 00:33 Sueco wrote: Not really. A stalker push can crush a cannon FE. They are larger units than roaches but the fact that they have 6 range means that they can survive extensive forcefields and well-positioned blocking buildings. Roaches are MUCH more easily controlled and denied, particularly by forcefields. Ramps completely swing any fight away from roaches assuming your opponent hasn't been completely greedy and made no units. When roaches attack, in t1, they are also slower units which even further compounds their semi-melee status. Well this is all extremely map dependant. You can certainly bust a FFE on metal or XNC, and yeah it's nigh impossible on Shakuras. This is a map issue though. Yes, and that power multiplier is very visible in how a blob of roaches handles melee units like zealots or zerglings. When faced by P&T's superior-ranged T1 units, the roaches get the short end of the shaft. This is why simple mass gateway/bio army pushes can crush zerg, their units are capable of reaching a firepower multiplier very early in the game that roaches can never match due to their short range, large size and low speed. Add in clever terrain/forcefield/bunker use and roaches get completely outclassed. Simple gateway/bio armies only kill Zerg when they respond badly. Whether they're capable of responding better at times is a different issue, but when they do they hold just fine. Anyway "simple" gateway/bio armies kill every race if they don't respond right, so I don't really know what this has to do with Zerg. Not better, equal. Baseline units that can be produced quickly in response to unscouted air. T&P have them, queen's aren't that unit. Sure, queens are great AA when you have a few of them and they have had time to build up energy. They still can´t attack worth jack and are too slowly produced to be used as a reaction to proxy air, which forces the multiple queen vs an actual army coin flip. By better I meant better than current. So what if their early AA isn't as good as P/T? Every race has weaknesses and strength. Why do they NEED better AA? Zerg is not unfairly vulnerable to early air play, why the heck should they get buffed there? With the T2 upgrade, yes. We're discussing early game, the first 10 minutes. T1-1.5. OK same speed/faster than all but one of our units. They aren't that zippy, so what? They're strong, stocky units. They aren't perfect. Big deal. T1 hydras would free up roaches to be remade into the regenerating tank, micro-encouraging unit that they never became, probably as a t2 unit. This is because a 75/25 roach is too cheap to be worth saving with micro. That APM is better spent macroing more roaches. A design intent failure. Or players are bad and throw away their roaches stupidly. Macro is easy, do both. Hydras would of course have to be balanced so that a t1 gateway or bio army can trade evenly with them. We're not asking for t2 hydras in t1, please get that into your head. I know that, no idea why you think I don't. Again, because you didn't actually address it. Why does Zerg NEED this hydra? What fatal weakness do they have that having this hydra would solve? Even if you can somehow prevent it stealing the roach's role, and you can somehow balance it, I still don't see any actual reason to bother at all. Why do they need it? IdrA's complaints about Zerg are the usual ones, and this doesn't address them at all. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 06 2011 00:57 Madkipz wrote: the point he wants to make is that protoss and terran have safe builds and good units that make this period ok. Unless we screw up and get too greedy and die. Or we play too safe and found out they were greedy, and die. So kinda like Zerg then. Zerg does not have safe builds nor are their units any good the first 6 minutes in the game. In every ZvX the zerg is walking a thin line between army and drones while terran and protoss get to chill and make sentries / marines and do whatever they want. Their units aren't good....sigh. Zerg units are > gateway units. The only time you can kill them with gateway units is if you catch them by surprise. IdrA's complaint is basically that he can be caught off guard and not be able to do anything about that, not that Zerg units are shit. He wants the scouting so he doesn't get caught off guard. Zerg is unusually vulnerable to being caught off guard because of the larva mechanic, not because their units are bad (they aren't) or whatever. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
I also think that terran can make an imbalance argument though, in that the metagame revolves around doing damage to the zerg's economy to be able to keep up. Everyone agrees you can't leave a zerg alone or you'll get overrun, however with how the game works even small disadvantages are amost impossible to overcome, and it's improbable that harass will do the exact amount of damage that would make the situation "even", so very very often the games are decided by the first harassment choices. They either succeed and the zerg is never able to recover, or they fail and zerg has a very easy time rolling terran in the midgame. Overall I think the game is just poorly designed and the more I play the more I am frustrated. | ||
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rO_Or
United States306 Posts
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
Again, because you didn't actually address it. Why does Zerg NEED this hydra? What fatal weakness do they have that having this hydra would solve? Even if you can somehow prevent it stealing the roach's role, and you can somehow balance it, I still don't see any actual reason to bother at all. Why do they need it? IdrA's complaints about Zerg are the usual ones, and this doesn't address them at all. That's what my original post was about. If that doesn't explain it for you, I give up. Plenty of other people got the point. + Show Spoiler + On May 05 2011 22:21 Sueco wrote: As a Zerg player I partially agree with Idra, but: Zerg scouting isn't that inferior if you compare it objectively. True, a wall-in and stalkers/marines patrolling the walls will easily deny scouting, but look at the situation for the other races at the 8 min mark. Once zerglings are out, zerg players can deny scouting workers with relative ease. Observers are excellent scouts but their tech level puts them on par with overlord speed or overseers. Terrans have the allmighty scan but it at least has some cost in the form of lost income, and one scan doesn't really reveal everything. Point is, all races have imperfect scouting. In my opinion, that is as it should be. Perfect scouting would mean a lot of boring macro games. Part of the game is the hiding of information and the use of surprise through the fog of war. So, scouting is where it should be in this game. Here's where Idra hits it head on: Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive. While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose. Watch pro replays, most of the time Zerg has map control for the first 10 minutes of the game. Zerglings on towers, zerglings near the ramp, one or two overlords hanging outside the base. Watch the T PoV. Very little information aside from wether there is an expansion or not, and whether one or two tech buildings are present. They are never very worried about their lack of information because they know most kind of agressions Z can put out are easily handled with a bunker or two or a forcefield. They then go for a blind timing attack and usually either break even, come out ahead or outright win because Z needs to know exactly whats coming in order to defend it at all. --------------------------- What's the solution? Well, here we go into more speculative territory. My take is: Zerg is the only race that lacks a proper ranged attacker in their basic T1-1.5 lineup. This is the key reason Zerg lacks safe builds and early agression options. A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against. B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose. C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression. Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS and a large size, meaning they still have trouble dealing with defensive buildings/terrain and that they lose a firefight with units that can reach better ranged power multipliers, such as a marines. And of course, they can't hit air. I'm sorry to repeat a tired old Zerg mantra, but it's true: BW Hydras please. | ||
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N3rV[Green]
United States1935 Posts
That's just absurd. No build is "safe vs everything" It's simply untrue. Please tell me the magic protoss build that allows me to not scout until hallucination, and NEVER LOSE A GAME to some random un-scouted all-in/weird play. Please, tell me. Cause I sure as hell haven't found one. Zerg early game production is straight up silly, and yet all zergs can think of right now is "well I need to make drones, duh" instead of making a round of speedlings, and causing havoc around the map, and using the information you gain from them to plan out your next moves. Also, Nestea roflstomped Anypro by playing well. Simple as that. Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
IdrA's complaint is basically that he can be caught off guard and not be able to do anything about that, not that Zerg units are shit. He wants the scouting so he doesn't get caught off guard. Zerg is unusually vulnerable to being caught off guard because of the larva mechanic, not because their units are bad (they aren't) or whatever. No you did not understood what IdrA's said. IdrA said that, in a strategy game, you need at least one of 2 things: 1) full map knowledge, so that you can instantly react to everything your opponent do OR 2) an "all purpose" build that can theorically, if played well, counter all the possible strat your opponent can do and still give you a decent maccro (slightly better or slightly weaker than your opponent, still close). Protoss have the 3 gate expand, who can basically take any kind of cheese if played well (meaning stop being greedy protoss) and that will lead you to observer and hallucination with no risk against any zerg. That's why they don't need scout between 5 - 9 min, because with a good wall in they can take ANYTHING the zerg can throw at them. Zerg players on the other hand don't have that "all purpose" build order, so they resort to scouting. They need scouting to react to their opponent since they don't have any build that makes them safe in the early game. Their scouting is imperfect so they need to guess. Let's suppose the zerg still scout what the protoss is doing : If zergs need to defend, they have to build units: they have no wall, no strategic units like the sentries, to defend with the best cost efficiency: they need to outmuscle their opponent in order to defend. BUT, at the same time zerg units are design to be the suckiest units in the game, which is fair considering the larva mechanic. So if you HAVE to build units to defend, those units means less drone, weaker maccro, and at the same time, those units, because they are weak, are useless to attack against a decent protoss / terran who know how to wall in / use their units. In the end, zergs are always behind maccro wise. | ||
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