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Aristodemus
England2014 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:50 Dommk wrote: How many Protoss players have been "phenomenally" successful lately, other than Naniwa, MC and Ace? Not trolling or anything, very curious to know. Can you really count Ace? Sure he won IEM but they invited 3 koreans and they placed 1, 2, 3. The Australian thing he won was almost free money and NASL is still young. | ||
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Pondo
Australia283 Posts
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
But he tried to provide facts later on and explain his oppinions and support them with reasoning and examples. If he was wrong and his reasoning was faulty day9 could have said so and shown where there is the fault in Idras arguments, but day9 failed to do so in my opinion. Idra tried to use examples and use reasoning and logical later but day9 was not listening and his argumentation was not sound in any way. Idra should have been more calm and trie to argue more and logically, there is no question about that, but day9s response was really bad and lacked logic and reasoning. And I think Idra can say tha there is an imbalance if he thinks so and if he can back it up with logic and some sort of proove and day9 should counter Idras arguments if he can or provide solid alternatives, but day9 failed. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:39 Mailing wrote: Neither will Ret, Sen, Dimaga, Slush, Machine, Sheth, Morrow, Moonglade, etc. Hehe, it's funny, listen to what Sheth, who's amazing at ZvP and doesn't whine, says about 30 seconds in Epic pause  | ||
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Synk
United States297 Posts
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
anyway I didn't really like this weeks episode  First the way too long argueing between Idra and Day9 which ended up in saying the exact same thing for 45 minutes (could have been done in 10 minutes) And then the absolutely useless discussion about the EG Masters Cup I'm sure no1 cared at all about. Anyway still thanks for the good parts of the episode, less drama next week please :/ | ||
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PinkSoviet
France45 Posts
We play in korea 12 hours a day we are supposed to win against them It's quite impressive a scrub can become this good, through. | ||
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
I wish on SOTG they would discuss the scene and emergent strategies more rather than eSports politics like EG masters cup (which was a totally boring discussion too, good only for the drama if you care about that) | ||
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Cybren
United States206 Posts
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On May 05 2011 21:10 Holy_AT wrote: I have to agree that Idras statements at the beginning did not encourage a discussion, also because he was to emotionally involved. But he tried to provide facts later on and explain his oppinions and support them with reasoning and examples. If he was wrong and his reasoning was faulty day9 could have said so and shown where there is the fault in Idras arguments, but day9 failed to do so in my opinion. Idra tried to use examples and use reasoning and logical later but day9 was not listening and his argumentation was not sound in any way. Idra should have been more calm and trie to argue more and logically, there is no question about that, but day9s response was really bad and lacked logic and reasoning. And I think Idra can say tha there is an imbalance if he thinks so and if he can back it up with logic and some sort of proove and day9 should counter Idras arguments if he can or provide solid alternatives, but day9 failed. Idra didn't prove anything. He said that doing X is impossible, something he's said about other "imbalanced" stuff earlier that didn't turn out to be true. It's only natural that you shut out the exaggerated hyperbole that Idra keeps churning out, reglardless if he might have a point here and there. There's just no point in arguing with someone who says X can't be done, where do you go from there? How do you disprove anything he says? There's also a huge difference in how the percieve balance. A 40% win percentage against T and P is not horrible and it's way, way less of a deal than Idra makes it out to be. Bring in a zerg that can actually discuss the imbalance and look at it objectively and i think D9 and the others will be more interested. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On May 05 2011 21:10 Holy_AT wrote: I have to agree that Idras statements at the beginning did not encourage a discussion, also because he was to emotionally involved. But he tried to provide facts later on and explain his oppinions and support them with reasoning and examples. If he was wrong and his reasoning was faulty day9 could have said so and shown where there is the fault in Idras arguments, but day9 failed to do so in my opinion. Idra tried to use examples and use reasoning and logical later but day9 was not listening and his argumentation was not sound in any way. Idra should have been more calm and trie to argue more and logically, there is no question about that, but day9s response was really bad and lacked logic and reasoning. And I think Idra can say tha there is an imbalance if he thinks so and if he can back it up with logic and some sort of proove and day9 should counter Idras arguments if he can or provide solid alternatives, but day9 failed. Honestly, I got the impression that Idra was frustrated at Day9, not with zerg, because last time this was brought up Day9 just kept laughing over and over again without saying much. Zerg isn't really doing that well, and Day9's response is seems snarky or incredibly vague, neither of which contribute much to a discussion. I think if he argued with Tyler or Incontrol, Idra would have been less frustrated. Honestly Tyler even conceded Idra's point. Idra didn't prove anything. He said that doing X is impossible, something he's said about other "imbalanced" stuff earlier that didn't turn out to be true. It's only natural that you shut out the exaggerated hyperbole that Idra keeps churning out, reglardless if he might have a point here and there. There's just no point in arguing with someone who says X can't be done, where do you go from there? How do you disprove anything he says? Please explain where IdrA was being hyperbolic or said something was impossible. Maybe you're referring to getting an overlord past a marine? Please enlighten us zergs how to do so. What did he exaggerate? What was his hyperbole? | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Anyway Zergs with better scouting would completely break the game. Zerg cannot be allowed access to all the information they want or the can tailor their drone count & army easily. Would be a huge balance problem. | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
Zerg scouting isn't that inferior if you compare it objectively. True, a wall-in and stalkers/marines patrolling the walls will easily deny scouting, but look at the situation for the other races at the 8 min mark. Once zerglings are out, zerg players can deny scouting workers with relative ease. Observers are excellent scouts but their tech level puts them on par with overlord speed or overseers. Terrans have the allmighty scan but it at least has some cost in the form of lost income, and one scan doesn't really reveal everything. Point is, all races have imperfect scouting. In my opinion, that is as it should be. Perfect scouting would mean a lot of boring macro games. Part of the game is the hiding of information and the use of surprise through the fog of war. So, scouting is where it should be in this game. Here's where Idra hits it head on: Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive. While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose. Watch pro replays, most of the time Zerg has map control for the first 10 minutes of the game. Zerglings on towers, zerglings near the ramp, one or two overlords hanging outside the base. Watch the T PoV. Very little information aside from wether there is an expansion or not, and whether one or two tech buildings are present. They are never very worried about their lack of information because they know most kind of agressions Z can put out are easily handled with a bunker or two or a forcefield. They then go for a blind timing attack and usually either break even, come out ahead or outright win because Z needs to know exactly whats coming in order to defend it at all. --------------------------- What's the solution? Well, here we go into more speculative territory. My take is: Zerg is the only race that lacks a proper ranged attacker in their basic T1-1.5 lineup. This is the key reason Zerg lacks safe builds and early agression options. A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against. B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose. C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression. Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS and a large size, meaning they still have trouble dealing with defensive buildings/terrain and that they lose a firefight with units that can reach better ranged power multipliers, such as a marines. And of course, they can't hit air. I'm sorry to repeat a tired old Zerg mantra, but it's true: BW Hydras please. | ||
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:01 karpo wrote: Idra didn't prove anything. He said that doing X is impossible, something he's said about other "imbalanced" stuff earlier that didn't turn out to be true. It's only natural that you shut out the exaggerated hyperbole that Idra keeps churning out, reglardless if he might have a point here and there. There's just no point in arguing with someone who says X can't be done, where do you go from there? How do you disprove anything he says? There's also a huge difference in how the percieve balance. A 40% win percentage against T and P is not horrible and it's way, way less of a deal than Idra makes it out to be. Bring in a zerg that can actually discuss the imbalance and look at it objectively and i think D9 and the others will be more interested. Idra brought logical, specific examples of what he thinks is wrong with Zerg (lack of scouting, need to fully commit to defend something while not being able to scout) and Day9 just say 'No I don't think so' without ever responding to Idras specific examples. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:23 branflakes14 wrote: What's amusing about Idra is that top Brood War players and coaches have said perfect Terran is unbeatable, yet he considered Terran underpowered. I wish he would stop touting his opinions as fact, people take him seriously. So many people in one SotG episode though! Yeah there were way too many guests today... Machine hardly got to say anything at all which was a shame, cuz i wanted to hear more from him, but there were just so many people plus incontrol going on a tirade for like 40 minutes so the rest had to just observe for like 50 minutes. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:23 branflakes14 wrote: What's amusing about Idra is that top Brood War players and coaches have said perfect Terran is unbeatable, yet he considered Terran underpowered. I wish he would stop touting his opinions as fact, people take him seriously. So many people in one SotG episode though! Sure and it's the same boat here since Terran is the only complete race. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:24 Yaotzin wrote: BW Hydras would be absurdly imba. Toss would be 100% forced to turtle hard until collossus, letting Zerg take the map and drone like mad for ages. Zerg HAS to be under threat early game. They cannot be allowed to do nothing but drone or they are unbeatable. Well, the problem is that Zerg is under threat the entire game. Against Terran there are windows of time when you're safer, like when you get a few Infestors with energy you can really deter pushes. Against Protoss you never get that, there's nothing to scare the Protoss into not attacking. We'd need Lurkers or something that we can tech to and force the Protoss to tech too. Tunneling claws does that to some extent, but it's not the same. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:32 hugman wrote: Well, the problem is that Zerg is under threat the entire game. Against Terran there are windows of time when you're safer, like when you get a few Infestors with energy you can really deter pushes. Against Protoss you never get that, there's nothing to scare the Protoss into not attacking. We'd need Lurkers or something that we can tech to and force the Protoss to tech too. Tunneling claws does that to some extent, but it's not the same. You should try the other side of the fence sometime. It's not as green as it looks. | ||
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