EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 992
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
I do like the controversial discussion though and hope for more honest opinions as it has seemed like sotg has been playing it a bit safe lately. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:35 bigjenk wrote: Idra will never be phenomenaly successful as long as he maintains his defeatist and poor me attitude that he has had since bw. From watching his streams and interviews it is easy to tell that he feels everyone outside korea is far worse than him and when he wins it is by pure unadultered skill and when he loses it is imbalance and whines about how he could do nothing. He then makes ridiculous excuses as to why other zerg do so much better than him and tries to discredit everyone that plays another race such as his naniwa is terrible shit. For someone who thinks they are by far the best foreigner he has what 3 placing at decent tournaments all of which he thinks the rest of the fields were jokes. Neither will Ret, Sen, Dimaga, Slush, Machine, Sheth, Morrow, Moonglade, etc. | ||
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Hristiyan
99 Posts
Sum up of the problem : Zerg has a serious issue regarding early game scouting. It is impossible get a zergling into a wall-in and slow overlords are denied quite easily by just a few marines. This leaves the zerg without any intel early game. see whats inside the terran or toss base IF YOU ARE BETTER than the terran player.Terran T1 scout: Scan. Cannot be denied. Protoss T1 scout: Hallucinated fenix. Cannot be denied. Zerg T1 scout: Fundamentally broken overlord. Can be denied of scouting quite easily. Zerglings cannot scout walled-in tosses and terrans (which are basically all). !!!!!!!!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------!!!! Zerg scout cannot be compared to the Terran or Protoss early scouts like Scans or Hallucinated fenixes ( which btw would be much better even with the overlord buff , which however will be redicilously more expensive ). !!!!!!!!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------!!!! ( The other topic was of the SOTG discussion, this is for a balance change suggestion which can actually fix the zerg race to some extend ) !!! READ THE WHOLE POST BEFORE COMMENTING !!! Balance change suggestion: - Reduce the efect of Pneumatized Carapace by 40% or 50% to 60% ( tests must be made to see whats the exactly appropriate percentage so it can be balanced ) - Make the Pneumatized Carapace accessible as a T1 research ( requires only Hatchery, does not require Lair ). This way: - Zerg will have a chance to scout Protosses and Terran bases early game. - Terrans and Protosses will have an actual chance to show their actual skills and deny that scout if cought on time. ( cuz its slower ). Now its just ridiculously easy to deny an overlord early game from scouting. Its not even a challenge for the marines to catch one, without it getting any intel - Zerg WILL BE BEHIND economically by researching this VERY EXPENSIVE EARLY GAME upgrade since it costs 100 gas, but in return it will have chance to | ||
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:35 bigjenk wrote: Idra will never be phenomenaly successful as long as he maintains his defeatist and poor me attitude that he has had since bw. From watching his streams and interviews it is easy to tell that he feels everyone outside korea is far worse than him. To be fair, not many good players play ladder, especially on NA... very few pros use ladder for training actually, so obviously idra thinks hes better than amateurs/low tier pros. At least every time i've watched idras stream he has never played vs another pro and they just all in him for a win | ||
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:39 Mailing wrote: Neither will Ret, Sen, Dimaga, Slush, Machine, Sheth, Morrow, Moonglade, etc. They don't have close the the attitude and ego idra does. Not even close. | ||
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:45 Maliris wrote: To be fair, not many good players play ladder, especially on NA... very few pros use ladder for training actually, so obviously idra thinks hes better than amateurs/low tier pros. At least every time i've watched idras stream he has never played vs another pro and they just all in him for a win More recently his comments on cruncher and his comments about every tournament he loses before podium in. | ||
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SONE
Canada839 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:12 KMARTRULES wrote: But the rest of the argument just went off track. Tyler is smart but you really can't argue with incontrol... he is too witty. I agree, and he was in the debate team or whatever it was after all. | ||
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ELA
Denmark4608 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:13 Jehct wrote: It was an all-in because if those three crawlers didn't kill the nexus he was severely behind. I don't know where people got the idea he was ahead on workers, he had to rush lair and get no other tech as well as spend 300mins and 3 drones to do that at some ridiculously early timing. That's like saying 5/6gate isn't all-in if you expand after killing the zergs nat and hold against the delayed muta harass. In your logic, any attack is an allin, because losing your army without doing a certain amount of damage to your opponent is putting you behind no matter what situation you're in.. I fucking hate that this term is being abused so much, and thrown at players that actually play aggressive and make things happen.. Sure, lets call them allin'ers because they try to control the game.. pfff | ||
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Maskedsatyr
Singapore1245 Posts
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:43 Hristiyan wrote: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2057506095?page=1 see whats inside the terran or toss base IF YOU ARE BETTER than the terran player. This balances with creep later on in the game how? You want that 14 hatch defend it. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:39 Mailing wrote: Neither will Ret, Sen, Dimaga, Slush, Machine, Sheth, Morrow, Moonglade, etc. How many Protoss players have been "phenomenally" successful lately, other than Naniwa, MC and Ace? Not trolling or anything, very curious to know. | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:45 Maliris wrote: To be fair, not many good players play ladder, especially on NA... very few pros use ladder for training actually, so obviously idra thinks hes better than amateurs/low tier pros. At least every time i've watched idras stream he has never played vs another pro and they just all in him for a win But he also considers naniwa bad. Naniwa plays very safe and quite standard and he sacrifices economy for scouting and plays "solid". I had thought that's the kind of gameplay that IdrA prefer. But he still think naniwa is bad so i don't know what makes a good protoss in his opinion. And he thinks of a lot of protoss and terrans who are winning tournaments / doing well as unknowns with no talent. Hasuobs / Naniwa / Happy / Kas / Thorzain aren't unknowns with no talents. They have been progamers for such a long time now. As in real progamers who have strict training schedule and circles of practice partners. | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
In my opinion day9 should be excluded from state of the game because his contribution is just bad faces and silly laughs and no opinions and ideas about the game. Day9 is not willing to do a discussion about the game its aspect and balance, he just sits, there does not even listen runns away makes funny faces os smack talks other people. Idra had an important issue, yes he was emotionally involved and needed to be brought down a bit and maybe he deserved some contra, but not taking him seriously at all, giving him a silly overlay picture and day9s jackass responses are not adequate. | ||
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SONE
Canada839 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:51 dtz wrote: But he still think naniwa is bad so i don't know what makes a good protoss in his opinion.. It doesn't sound like he thinks a protoss player can be good because of his opinion on the race as a whole. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:54 Holy_AT wrote: I was very disappointed by day9 response to Idras claims and views. Day9 did not contribute something substantially or argumants he just threw it aside without any logical explanation. In my opinion day9 should be excluded from state of the game because his contribution is just bad faces and silly laughs and no opinions and ideas about the game. Day9 is not willing to do a discussion about the game its aspect and balance, he just sits, there does not even listen runns away makes funny faces os smack talks other people. Idra had an important issue, yes he was emotionally involved and needed to be brought down a bit and maybe he deserved some contra, but not taking him seriously at all, giving him a silly overlay picture and day9s jackass responses are not adequate. IdrA just talked in absolutes and fallacies, what can you say if someone says X is un-winnable? Or when you do Y and he does X you lose? How do you respond to that? There wasn't a discussion, IdrA had already made up his mind and unless Day[9] managed to find something revolutionary in the next 5mins, then he was wrong. If IdrA wanted a discussion then he would have said something more open ended to invite discussion, but he didn't. All he was trying to do was getting Day[9] to agree with him, which wasn't going to happen so he puts him on the spot, prodding him for solutions over and over until it got too uncomfortable. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:43 Hristiyan wrote: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2057506095?page=1 see whats inside the terran or toss base IF YOU ARE BETTER than the terran player. Oh god, this is why the pros whining about balance is bad for the community. You get all these lemmings who can't think for themselves running around trying to stir crap up. I mean, if you play the game and you needed IdrA to point out all those things for you then you shouldn't be talking about balance. "Omg, I never realized it but Zerg actually has bad scouting, IdrA just opened my mind!! I'm going to complain about it on the BNet forums!!" | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
This is why this program is for and thank god for them we get to see it! it was a excellent show really liked it! Machine seems a nice guy also! | ||
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KingVietKong
United States170 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:54 Holy_AT wrote: I was very disappointed by day9 response to Idras claims and views. Day9 did not contribute something substantially or argumants he just threw it aside without any logical explanation. In my opinion day9 should be excluded from state of the game because his contribution is just bad faces and silly laughs and no opinions and ideas about the game. Day9 is not willing to do a discussion about the game its aspect and balance, he just sits, there does not even listen runns away makes funny faces os smack talks other people. Idra had an important issue, yes he was emotionally involved and needed to be brought down a bit and maybe he deserved some contra, but not taking him seriously at all, giving him a silly overlay picture and day9s jackass responses are not adequate. Yes day9 contributes nothing... except when he called quite accurately the development of TvP months ago, or provides analysis on pro matches, or uses his 12 years of experience to enhance the general discussion in a measured way, or his excellent humor to lighten and enhance the mood. He had a valid argument and has stated many times that he doesn't want to talk balance and that it's counter-productive, especially on SOTG, because there is shit jack all they're really going to be able to do about it in those venues. Furthermore Idra was hardly expressing a measured, precise debate, but instead was just spouting his feelings and interrupting Day9 with every single phrase, so that even if he had a fully constructed idea it was obstructed by his obvious emotional involvement. He may have good points but he makes it hard to take him seriously when, in his opinion, apparently no other players in the world are good, even if they're posting valid results. Day9 wanted real evidence, not just Idra saying that these things were hard and accepted as fact. Idra acted like he was providing said evidence, but was hardly doing so, mainly citing a few of his own experiences but not considering that you need a wealth of data to truly prove such a thing as imbalance, and that's what day9 wanted. You call day9's responses that of a jackass, yet here you are wanting him removed from a podcast that he is a major part of, when he is undoubtedly more experienced in the matters of the game than you or 99% of the rest of the community. Your response is akin to the "Do the podcast or someone else will" vein of absolute ridiculousness. Oh and Day9 smack talks other people? Are you fucking KIDDING ME!? Idra is the motherfucker king/queen/jester of smack talk, it's why people like him, it's half the reason they watch the show when he's on. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On May 05 2011 21:02 Dommk wrote: IdrA just talked in absolutes and fallacies, what can you say if someone says X is un-winnable? Or when you do Y and he does X you lose? How do you respond to that? There wasn't a discussion, IdrA had already made up his mind and unless Day[9] managed to find something revolutionary in the next 5mins, then he was wrong. If IdrA wanted a discussion then he would have said something more open ended to invite discussion, but he didn't. All he was trying to do was getting Day[9] to agree with him, which wasn't going to happen so he puts him on the spot, prodding him for solutions over and over until it got too uncomfortable. Arguing balance is pointless. You know how many times certain zerg players will ask "show me a replay with 2 players of equal level and zerg won in this "x" situation" Then I find a replay and they go "toss made a mistake at x" (sometimes it is like a pretty much irrevelant) or "zerg is just 10 times better, toss nub". You can't win arguement against them. | ||
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