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On May 05 2011 18:13 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 18:00 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On May 05 2011 17:41 karpo wrote:On May 05 2011 17:01 Durn wrote:On May 05 2011 16:59 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Yea I agree with syllogism on that, although I personally will tune out next time Idra starts doing that again it does really help viewer count since many people love the drama that it brings to the group. Also seemed nutty that he had like 14K on his live stream a little while after but this is the same conclusion I came to, people just love there drama. ^^ I still don't see the problem. I've read through the 20+ pages that this has genrrated and have yet to see a really strong refuting statement for what IdrA is saying. He wasn't being a bully, he wasn't being brash. He was being thorough and intelligent, and Day[9] was not meeting him halfway in that discussion. You and me have totally different views on what is thorough and intelligent then. I heard the same old balance stuff being sprouted. Even if zergs are UP the way Idra presents it is just so tiresome and obviously biased. Everything is exaggerations and hyperbole with him. Good/average players are shit, zergs aren't slightly weak; they are shit or a joke, scouting can't be done yet he does it regularly on his stream, earlier one base couldn't possibly hold two rax yet it does today. That kind of arguing is not productive and it feels like he's only preaching to the choir as i can't see anyone being swayed in their beliefs by someone so biased and black and white. 2rax is still insane and the only reason it's not OP as it once was is because map distances have changed immensely and some maps can't be blocked at the bottom by double bunker. IdrA will often times scout because people have poor buliding placement or don't kill his overlord quickly enough. You shouldn't use poor play as an example of balance. It has to be looked at optimally or almost optimally played. While clearly is nobody playing perfectly, it's easy to understand that at high levels of play, scouting should be easy to deny. You mention that he brought up the same old stuff and it's tiresome. That's because his primary complaint has always been the lack of scouting, in one way or another and the inability to play defensively without a large economic sacrifice that can easily be punished by feints. Where a lot of people get lost is that Terran (to a lesser extent protoss) hasn't been able to abuse this simply because of the fluctuation in builds done at the moment and their own inability to fully use their race. People talk about clues when you scout. However, when standard responses are figured out, then T/P can fake those responses and hit a different path. The Zerg is playing with just as little information and still has paths that very greatly lying in front of them to choose from. Does he have a second OC in his base just powering scv's to expand or does he have a factory getting blue flame? His whine isn't just based on early game scouting. Colossus is op, new archon change might be op, blink stalker op, 2 rax op, sentries op are just some of the things he's said the last 6 months. It's tiresome because his complaints are always hyperbole and never down to earn try-to-be-objective arguments. He said that Rainbow gave away the win to Fruitdealer on Twitter, In a interview he said that Nestea had a lucky break to win the GSL, many times he falls back to the "zerg won only due to opponent being bad". It's all been said before and it's just not interesting for anyone beside zergs to get into a argument started that way. If you want to start a serious discussion about balance and what to do about certain parts of the game where zergs have problems, do it while trying to be objective and seing both sides of the coin. This is rarely if ever done in balance discussions here or on battle.net cause people just can't agree on what is balanced and what is not due to bias.
Feel free to dig through old posts. Early after release and in the beta he was consistently stating that terran (in particular) could be too abusive with the overall # of builds available to them that could not be scouted. Just because he has targeted other units/builds instead of hammering on this single, solitary point, doesn't make it moot.
edit to addon: Those builds you mention are a good example. 2 rax, as an example, was considered ridiculous on the smaller maps because of the inability to know the transition the terran was taking. 2 rax into bunker pressure could outright win the game, if it didn't, he could be going for an expo, teching, or gearing up for a large early game attack and you couldn't gather any real information to decide.
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Nah IdrA is totally wrong about zergs.He's just a very good player ( not the best ) who's whining and QQing about zerg and saying he must be a better player to beat other races so he can feed his BIG EGO.And its nothing wrong with that.THe important thing is to not give him credit about what hes saying.
U guys consider BW a balanced game right ?. IdrA said in BW terran was the UP race. and guess what . he played terran !
He plays for big money, and in sc u can get big money.. so if he really ,in his heart, considered zergs so underpowered he would have switched to other races to win big money in tournaments. But he knows in his little whining heart  that the other races have weak points too and its hard to play them.
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On May 05 2011 18:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 18:13 karpo wrote:On May 05 2011 18:00 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On May 05 2011 17:41 karpo wrote:On May 05 2011 17:01 Durn wrote:On May 05 2011 16:59 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Yea I agree with syllogism on that, although I personally will tune out next time Idra starts doing that again it does really help viewer count since many people love the drama that it brings to the group. Also seemed nutty that he had like 14K on his live stream a little while after but this is the same conclusion I came to, people just love there drama. ^^ I still don't see the problem. I've read through the 20+ pages that this has genrrated and have yet to see a really strong refuting statement for what IdrA is saying. He wasn't being a bully, he wasn't being brash. He was being thorough and intelligent, and Day[9] was not meeting him halfway in that discussion. You and me have totally different views on what is thorough and intelligent then. I heard the same old balance stuff being sprouted. Even if zergs are UP the way Idra presents it is just so tiresome and obviously biased. Everything is exaggerations and hyperbole with him. Good/average players are shit, zergs aren't slightly weak; they are shit or a joke, scouting can't be done yet he does it regularly on his stream, earlier one base couldn't possibly hold two rax yet it does today. That kind of arguing is not productive and it feels like he's only preaching to the choir as i can't see anyone being swayed in their beliefs by someone so biased and black and white. 2rax is still insane and the only reason it's not OP as it once was is because map distances have changed immensely and some maps can't be blocked at the bottom by double bunker. IdrA will often times scout because people have poor buliding placement or don't kill his overlord quickly enough. You shouldn't use poor play as an example of balance. It has to be looked at optimally or almost optimally played. While clearly is nobody playing perfectly, it's easy to understand that at high levels of play, scouting should be easy to deny. You mention that he brought up the same old stuff and it's tiresome. That's because his primary complaint has always been the lack of scouting, in one way or another and the inability to play defensively without a large economic sacrifice that can easily be punished by feints. Where a lot of people get lost is that Terran (to a lesser extent protoss) hasn't been able to abuse this simply because of the fluctuation in builds done at the moment and their own inability to fully use their race. People talk about clues when you scout. However, when standard responses are figured out, then T/P can fake those responses and hit a different path. The Zerg is playing with just as little information and still has paths that very greatly lying in front of them to choose from. Does he have a second OC in his base just powering scv's to expand or does he have a factory getting blue flame? His whine isn't just based on early game scouting. Colossus is op, new archon change might be op, blink stalker op, 2 rax op, sentries op are just some of the things he's said the last 6 months. It's tiresome because his complaints are always hyperbole and never down to earn try-to-be-objective arguments. He said that Rainbow gave away the win to Fruitdealer on Twitter, In a interview he said that Nestea had a lucky break to win the GSL, many times he falls back to the "zerg won only due to opponent being bad". It's all been said before and it's just not interesting for anyone beside zergs to get into a argument started that way. If you want to start a serious discussion about balance and what to do about certain parts of the game where zergs have problems, do it while trying to be objective and seing both sides of the coin. This is rarely if ever done in balance discussions here or on battle.net cause people just can't agree on what is balanced and what is not due to bias. Feel free to dig through old posts. Early after release and in the beta he was consistently stating that terran (in particular) could be too abusive with the overall # of builds available to them that could not be scouted. Just because he has targeted other units/builds instead of hammering on this single, solitary point, doesn't make it moot.
The point might be solid or it might not. I really don't know if there's a solution for zergs other than scouting buffs.
What i'm saying is that the way Idra present himself and his opinions lead to people just shrugging their shoulders and ignoring it for the most part. Hammering home a point using replays, screenshots and statistics is the way to go. Not saying something is impossible and then believing that everyone will take your word for it, especially with everything they know about how BW developed.
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On May 05 2011 18:11 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 18:08 Dommk wrote:On May 05 2011 17:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games. How is this any different to Protoss? Protoss do not have access to reasonable scouting until 6-7 mins into the game at which point Hallucination or an observer becomes available. Protoss cannot get through a wall any better than Zerg. It isn't any easier to tell if a SCV all-in is coming as Protoss. People shouldn't get so worked up about getting that darn overlord over the wall, but rather why the lack of scouting has such a negative effect on Zerg. It shouldn't be about being able to see everything the opponent is doing--that is just stupid, you would be able to negate half the openings people do--but rather be able to react to what they have done in an appropriate manner. It is like 2Rax SCV or or Roach-Ling allins vs Protoss, you can't see them coming, but you you can play in a way that allows you to react deal with it where if you are the better player, you can win the majority of the time without needing a darn observer 4mins into the game or putting you on the back foot the rest of the game if they didn't end up doing it. This is what you should be striving to achieve, wanting to be able to see everything your opponent is doing is not the solution. It's a good counter-argument, but Idra DID cover this in his dicussion with Day9, spines are too slow. You CAN'T play reactively. A toss, if he has warpgates, can warp in the units needed to defend and use sentries to stall at the ramp. It's not perfect, but it helps a lot. A zerg has to throw down spines and build lings, everything else is too slow... and then you have to stall until the spines are finished.
I'm not saying whether or not Zerg can play re-actively like that, but if Zergs are having trouble, then it should be really about why and trying to resolve those issues, not trying to get Blizzard to give you a free scout of everything the opponent can do 4mins into the game.
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On May 05 2011 18:27 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 18:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 05 2011 18:08 Dommk wrote:On May 05 2011 17:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games. How is this any different to Protoss? Protoss do not have access to reasonable scouting until 6-7 mins into the game at which point Hallucination or an observer becomes available. Protoss cannot get through a wall any better than Zerg. It isn't any easier to tell if a SCV all-in is coming as Protoss. People shouldn't get so worked up about getting that darn overlord over the wall, but rather why the lack of scouting has such a negative effect on Zerg. It shouldn't be about being able to see everything the opponent is doing--that is just stupid, you would be able to negate half the openings people do--but rather be able to react to what they have done in an appropriate manner. It is like 2Rax SCV or or Roach-Ling allins vs Protoss, you can't see them coming, but you you can play in a way that allows you to react deal with it where if you are the better player, you can win the majority of the time without needing a darn observer 4mins into the game or putting you on the back foot the rest of the game if they didn't end up doing it. This is what you should be striving to achieve, wanting to be able to see everything your opponent is doing is not the solution. It's a good counter-argument, but Idra DID cover this in his dicussion with Day9, spines are too slow. You CAN'T play reactively. A toss, if he has warpgates, can warp in the units needed to defend and use sentries to stall at the ramp. It's not perfect, but it helps a lot. A zerg has to throw down spines and build lings, everything else is too slow... and then you have to stall until the spines are finished. I'm not saying whether or not Zerg can play re-actively like that, but if Zergs are having trouble, then it should be really about why and trying to resolve those issues, not trying to get Blizzard to give you a free scout of everything the opponent can do 4mins into the game.
Well I agree, I personally feel the most important buff for Zerg atm is to lower build time for spines and lower their burrow time a little as well. However, Idra isn't mentioning buffs, I'm sure you could get him to drop a ton of suggestions, but he's just arguing the inate issues zerg has because of the current design. He might want a free scout at 4 minute, but he might be fine with WAY smaller buffs. We don't know, since the discussion wasn't on what buffs zergs need, it was Idra defending his comments on Zerg being UP.
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I liked this episode a lot. Because of the Day9/Idra and Tyler/Incontrol debate.
How I saw it there was just debate mixed with some random venting. Sure it may looked that some people were angry or wrong. But I think this just means the issues they talked about felt important to them.
There was no personal insults or anything like that, they discussed about things they felt are important and end of the day all is good
I can't say who was right or wrong but I appreciate that they talked about the actual state of the game.
Keep up the good work guys.
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On May 05 2011 14:48 millardkillmore wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
IdrA NEEDS to be more specific if he wants to be taken seriously by anyone and not assumed to be trolling.
What type of early builds are you talking about greg? A stim timing? that is terrible with the stim nerf. Anything else early by bio you should have enough to defend if you AREN'T playing greedily (like most zergs do).
the point is that "not playing greedy" puts you behind by a large margin in the mid game because you're short on drones. that means that if, instead of early pushing the terran makes another CC in base and over saturates in a prep to expand, when you see the expand and can begin to compensate you are about 15 harvesters behind in addition to MULEs because you made lings/roaches instead, and you can't counterpush because of tanks and bunkers shutting down lings and roaches. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
You don't NEED to sac an overlord to scout.. you can send lings up the ramp and see from there. Addons etc are HUGE giveaways.
if you're good the only thing i see is 3 marines and a bunker, which may or may not have an addon. lets say you see 2 supply depots, 4 marines, and a rax with no add on. is he saving money to expo? saving gas to make banshees? saving gas to make drops? saving gas to make blue flame? saving gas to make thors? making 5 more raxes and hiding the marines? it tells you nothing. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
In ZvP it's just 4 gate, which makes ONE stalker which will not kill your overlord before you can scout. 4 gate is an easy easy counter once you scout it.
because it's impossible to 4gate once you make a sentry. and 1 stalker CAN kill the overlord if you don't just leave it at your ramp. i'm not sure if you noticed, but overlords are slow and hell and CANNOT scout the whole base before the stalker kills it. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
He's over hyping how dificult zerg early game is. Pre making spinecrawlers if you don't scout an expo is always a good idea. It doesn't put you behind as much as setting down some cannons at a protoss expo does.
yes it does. same cost, but mine costs a worker in addition to minerals. would you drop those 3 safety cannons at your natural if each one also costed a probe? Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
TLDR IdrA: You can't EXPECT to play greedily all the time and not die / get behind. If you can't scout, you may have to make some more units instead of making 12 drones at a time. For example, if a protoss loses his obs to a scan he is in the dark and will probably make some more units. This is a simple concept IdrA and most zergs can not grasp.. you can't play so greedily. the issue is that if zerg "doesn't play greedy" then they are behind. that is the nature of the race. if you don't use every larva for drones and also take an early expo then you simply do not have the drone count the toss or terran does (if you take into acount mules). the amount of defense you have to make to be "safe" from everything puts you worlds behind even that. if you lose your obs as a toss you keep making units, but you don't have to cut probes. if you lose your overseer and dont' get a read on what the player is doing, you can either make units to make sure that you don't lose to a push in 30 seconds, or you can get drones so you don't lose to the push that could come in 10 minutes. protoss and terran you just keep making units and workers at the same time wiht no cost to either.
It's just like arguing with idra. Everything sucks for the zerg and every other race is always ahead of you if you don't get a free 80 drones in the first 10 mins of the game. That's now how it works.. you can be 10 drones ahead and just play safely so when that weird build rolls out you didn't scout you can hold it off like a normal race would (build units + workers at the same time) Also bases aren't THAT huge (aside from say shakuras) and you will scout most of the base. Everything isn't ALWAYS against you as a zerg.
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Slight GSL-spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Im watching the GSL r08 between Nestea and anyproPrime.. And what do I see? Nestea just found a another way for zerg to be offensive, when protoss does forge fastexpand :D
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On May 05 2011 19:22 ELA wrote:Slight GSL-spoiler + Show Spoiler +Im watching the GSL r08 between Nestea and anyproPrime.. And what do I see? Nestea just found a another way for zerg to be offensive, when protoss does forge fastexpand :D
That was an allin, if anything that could be more fuel for an imbalance argument rather than any evidence to the contrary =P
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On May 05 2011 19:25 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 19:22 ELA wrote:Slight GSL-spoiler + Show Spoiler +Im watching the GSL r08 between Nestea and anyproPrime.. And what do I see? Nestea just found a another way for zerg to be offensive, when protoss does forge fastexpand :D That was an allin, if anything that could be more fuel for an imbalance argument rather than any evidence to the contrary =P
How was it an allin when he took a third behind it and made just enough hydras to defend voidrays as he droned up more?
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On May 05 2011 19:25 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 19:22 ELA wrote:Slight GSL-spoiler + Show Spoiler +Im watching the GSL r08 between Nestea and anyproPrime.. And what do I see? Nestea just found a another way for zerg to be offensive, when protoss does forge fastexpand :D That was an allin, if anything that could be more fuel for an imbalance argument rather than any evidence to the contrary =P
All in? He expanded behind it. It was a brilliant push. It's metagame shattering
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On May 05 2011 19:25 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 19:22 ELA wrote:Slight GSL-spoiler + Show Spoiler +Im watching the GSL r08 between Nestea and anyproPrime.. And what do I see? Nestea just found a another way for zerg to be offensive, when protoss does forge fastexpand :D That was an allin, if anything that could be more fuel for an imbalance argument rather than any evidence to the contrary =P
Not much of an all in dude I think you should get the pass so you can re watch it.+ Show Spoiler +He was ahead on workers while continuing to expand and had hydra tech timed to push while he was ahead, while expanding. If you mean using spines to push forward knowing toss had no good response that early I still dont see how thats an allin since he's risking little well knowing the toss has no way to attack him since he "scouted" the forge fe...
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shows that protoss build orders aren't 100% safe. something idra likes to claim both protoss and terran to have
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On May 05 2011 18:20 f4natic wrote:
Nah IdrA is totally wrong about zergs.
So, care to elaborate why do you think that aside from him playing zerg?
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On May 05 2011 19:25 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 19:22 ELA wrote:Slight GSL-spoiler + Show Spoiler +Im watching the GSL r08 between Nestea and anyproPrime.. And what do I see? Nestea just found a another way for zerg to be offensive, when protoss does forge fastexpand :D That was an allin, if anything that could be more fuel for an imbalance argument rather than any evidence to the contrary =P
God damnit no it wasn't an all-in.
Tyler, Incontrol and Day9, could you please explain on the next SotG what all-in
and metagame means(Chill would be grateful as well for the metagame one)
These terms are so falsely overused it's frustrating , you would help educate the community lol.
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On May 05 2011 19:35 valaki wrote:So, care to elaborate why do you think that aside from him playing zerg?
not that he is wrong per se. His analysis of everything that has been explored is excellent and spot on. He might or might no be correct in his analysis that zerg is weak. He is just arrogant to assume that everything that is possible has been explored.
But even though this phrase sounds old and repeated, it is really too soon to conclude and the game is young. If no one is able to provide solutions right now, does not mean it does not exist
That and sometimes all-ins are appropriate response to something greedy/risky and does not need to be maligned. unnecessarily
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On May 05 2011 19:27 superarmy wrote:
It was a brilliant push. It's metagame shattering
how is it meta game shattering? anypro didnt react even though he saw spine crawlers building like an hour in front of his base. (ok he build a stargate after seeing it which really doesnt seem..that great? he could at least have poked with sentries / pulled probes with his army and kill / deflect the few zerglings that defended 3 building spinecrawlers)
seems like a cool tool to have in ur arsenal if u see forge FE on certain maps but its not like auto win against forge fe or something.
dont forget u need lair for it to work (or build an hatch in front of his base!)
dont disagree with the "brilliant push" thing. really cool to see.
edit : not saying it cant be a good answer to forge FE. im just saying that we cant tell from that one game since anypro did not react great at all,which is understandable seeing it probably the first time.
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EPT
