|
On May 05 2011 17:03 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 16:58 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2011 16:47 Dommk wrote:On May 05 2011 16:40 syllogism wrote:
TheStc actually plays a lot despite being in army and plays just like any other top korean terran so he is a rather poor example. Mondragon hasn't shown anything special either; people just love himfrom BW and want to believe whatever he does it ingenious. How is that possible...To play a lot despite being in the military? Don't understand how you can say he plays like any other Korean Terran either, there was more buzz around him than any other terran. Just read the last one that was made about him, it was something like 4-5 pages and had nothing but praise, filled with people calling him the best Terran in Korea. And Mondragon hasn't shown anything special? Right... Spanishiwa is, apparently, gaining a lot of fans with his nonstandard play, but once again this doesn't mean his style is actually any good. Your argument isn't based on substance, but rather on "feeling".
Plus your examples seemed to be certainly fall within what would have made you good at SC2 as well, making your point completely moot I guess you are right. What I'm basing this on has little to do with any kind of metric. It is something that you see. Spaniswha isn't quite the same, but I doubt there is anyone who watched the Mondragon games that wasn't impressed by him given how little he has played. Much the same with theStC. Either of those two do no not have the greatest mechanics, you can see they need oiling, but you see it in the replies they get from their games, you see it by the way people react to them, how people treat them. How much more people enjoy their games. How impressed people are. Talent. the problem here is that you and most people dont know what you're talking about. you dont understand those things "you see" also you have no idea how much people practice. But you do right? Enough to completely discredit anyone who wasn't good at SC1. Enough to give yourself some vain entitlement to being good at this game, right? I don't make assumptions about how much people practice. theStC said in an interview that he has stopped participating as much since enlisting in the military and would start again sometime in May. Mondragon also has talked about his limited time to practice. edit: meant to say participating, not practice
This is the reason pros don't post on the forums; there are too many low level players or pure spectators who are so presumptuous that they somehow think they know better than them or even possess enough understanding of high level play to even debate a subject with them.
|
On May 05 2011 17:09 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 17:03 Dommk wrote:On May 05 2011 16:58 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2011 16:47 Dommk wrote:On May 05 2011 16:40 syllogism wrote:
TheStc actually plays a lot despite being in army and plays just like any other top korean terran so he is a rather poor example. Mondragon hasn't shown anything special either; people just love himfrom BW and want to believe whatever he does it ingenious. How is that possible...To play a lot despite being in the military? Don't understand how you can say he plays like any other Korean Terran either, there was more buzz around him than any other terran. Just read the last one that was made about him, it was something like 4-5 pages and had nothing but praise, filled with people calling him the best Terran in Korea. And Mondragon hasn't shown anything special? Right... Spanishiwa is, apparently, gaining a lot of fans with his nonstandard play, but once again this doesn't mean his style is actually any good. Your argument isn't based on substance, but rather on "feeling".
Plus your examples seemed to be certainly fall within what would have made you good at SC2 as well, making your point completely moot I guess you are right. What I'm basing this on has little to do with any kind of metric. It is something that you see. Spaniswha isn't quite the same, but I doubt there is anyone who watched the Mondragon games that wasn't impressed by him given how little he has played. Much the same with theStC. Either of those two do no not have the greatest mechanics, you can see they need oiling, but you see it in the replies they get from their games, you see it by the way people react to them, how people treat them. How much more people enjoy their games. How impressed people are. Talent. the problem here is that you and most people dont know what you're talking about. you dont understand those things "you see" also you have no idea how much people practice. But you do right? Enough to completely discredit anyone who wasn't good at SC1. Enough to give yourself some vain entitlement to being good at this game, right? I don't make assumptions about how much people practice. theStC said in an interview that he has stopped participating as much since enlisting in the military and would start again sometime in May. Mondragon also has talked about his limited time to practice. edit: meant to say participating, not practice This is the reason pros don't post on the forums; there are too many low level players or pure spectators who are so presumptuous that they somehow know better than them.
I'll admit I'm over stepping myself by talking about talent. I'm no place to say such things. But soo many people have felt fine to voice their opinion, I didn't feel it was that bad saying mine.
I'm not sure if IdrA was trolling when he was on STOG, but mid way he said Ret and himself deserves the same amount of success if not more because they spent time in Korea, he called Kiwikaki and Naniwa bad and only succeed because of their race.
I may be in no place to say what is and what isn't talent. But no one is in any place to state what they (or Others) do and do not deserve.
|
is it just me, or was Gretorp stoned/drunk in episode 36??
|
On May 05 2011 16:58 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 16:47 Dommk wrote:On May 05 2011 16:40 syllogism wrote:
TheStc actually plays a lot despite being in army and plays just like any other top korean terran so he is a rather poor example. Mondragon hasn't shown anything special either; people just love himfrom BW and want to believe whatever he does it ingenious. How is that possible...To play a lot despite being in the military? Don't understand how you can say he plays like any other Korean Terran either, there was more buzz around him than any other terran. Just read the last one that was made about him, it was something like 4-5 pages and had nothing but praise, filled with people calling him the best Terran in Korea. And Mondragon hasn't shown anything special? Right... Spanishiwa is, apparently, gaining a lot of fans with his nonstandard play, but once again this doesn't mean his style is actually any good. Your argument isn't based on substance, but rather on "feeling".
Plus your examples seemed to be certainly fall within what would have made you good at SC2 as well, making your point completely moot I guess you are right. What I'm basing this on has little to do with any kind of metric. It is something that you see. Spaniswha isn't quite the same, but I doubt there is anyone who watched the Mondragon games that wasn't impressed by him given how little he has played. Much the same with theStC. Either of those two do no not have the greatest mechanics, you can see they need oiling, but you see it in the replies they get from their games, you see it by the way people react to them, how people treat them. How much more people enjoy their games. How impressed people are. Talent. the problem here is that you and most people dont know what you're talking about. you dont understand those things "you see" also you have no idea how much people practice.
But do you actually know how much players who you claim to be "three times better than" practice?
I mean clearly you're just playing off your image and exaggerating, but I would like more insight into the specifics of why you believe players such as KiWiKaKi are less skilled than you.
|
On May 05 2011 17:01 Durn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 16:59 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Yea I agree with syllogism on that, although I personally will tune out next time Idra starts doing that again it does really help viewer count since many people love the drama that it brings to the group. Also seemed nutty that he had like 14K on his live stream a little while after but this is the same conclusion I came to, people just love there drama. ^^ I still don't see the problem. I've read through the 20+ pages that this has genrrated and have yet to see a really strong refuting statement for what IdrA is saying. He wasn't being a bully, he wasn't being brash. He was being thorough and intelligent, and Day[9] was not meeting him halfway in that discussion.
You and me have totally different views on what is thorough and intelligent then.
I heard the same old balance stuff being sprouted. Even if zergs are UP the way Idra presents it is just so tiresome and obviously biased. Everything is exaggerations and hyperbole with him. Good/average players are shit, zergs aren't slightly weak; they are shit or a joke, scouting can't be done yet he does it regularly on his stream, earlier one base couldn't possibly hold two rax yet it does today. That kind of arguing is not productive and it feels like he's only preaching to the choir as i can't see anyone being swayed in their beliefs by someone so biased and black and white.
|
even possess enough understanding of high level play to even debate a subject with them.
Much of what I said had nothing to do with high level play, but more so to the way people react and what people have said. I actually stay away from talking about balance and what needs changing. But you on the other hand it seem (at least from your post history) to openly talk about it and know exactly what needs fixing. I guess you must have a very level of understanding about this game. I'm going to go edit out my subjective views on talent, I feel it isn't necessary.
But anyway, He is obviously bitter his SC1 success has not translated over to SC2 as much as he hoped. But using it as a talking point to debate race balance is laughable. The fact is, there have been many SC1 Pros who have had fleeting success with this game, players of every race who are still to this day still playing competitively.
|
On May 05 2011 17:14 firehand101 wrote:
is it just me, or was Gretorp stoned/drunk in episode 36??
He was probably just tired from all that grinding.
|
I dont really understand IdrA's argument. If you see a naked barracks, no units, and marines patroling the base that IS scouting.
Scouting doesnt have to be seeing everything. If you see a naked barracks and no units/buildings i'd be pretty sure the terran is doing something like hellion or banshees.
As terran i often dont see everything. If i scout 2 gas and i dont see any gateways/units i just think that it's either DT's or stargates, i dont need to see the actual dark shrine. I understand that zerg has a really hard time getting scouting info, but it's always been that way. I feel like IdrA was just saying how zergs are designed and using that as an argument for imbalance.
It's like me saying "terrans cant remax as fast as zergs!!" and using that as a reason for imbalance.
|
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games.
|
On May 05 2011 17:48 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +even possess enough understanding of high level play to even debate a subject with them. Much of what I said had nothing to do with high level play, but more so to the way people react and what people have said. I actually stay away from talking about balance and what needs changing. But you on the other hand it seem (at least from your post history) to openly talk about it and know exactly what needs fixing. I guess you must have a very level of understanding about this game. I'm going to go edit out my subjective views on talent, I feel it isn't necessary.
This is a derail not particularly worth discussing, but I actually had to do a quick search of my post history to find out if I truly openly talk about things that should be fixed. Couldn't find anything besides the acknowledgment that ZvP has issues, but I didn't dig too far; I fully expect that I occasionally succumb to the temptation to complain. In a more open environment, say irc, I do discuss/complain about balance, but I do it while fully realizing I don't have sufficient knowledge at all to actually pretend to be any sort of authority on the subject and mostly point to top koreans complaining about the same things. There are also two separate issues, with one being balance and the other being that protoss as it stands is just boring to watch. Any level players should be free to discuss these things somewhere, but it should be done in a reasonable manner rather than aggressively attacking players who clearly understand the game way more than you do.
|
I wouldn't say Gretorp sounded drunk or drugged up. Just really tired.
As for the whole idra thing, I concede that he has a point but I feel very similarly as a Terran player tbh. Sure it's not quite as bad since marines are nice and flexible and wall offs are kinda fun, scans save our arses from random cloaked shit, but there are a lot of situations in each matchup where if I want to do a basic rax expansion then there are lots of possible options the other guy might be doing and I cannot 100% know what these are with the tools I have at my disposal. Scans do not see everything and they are very costly. Reapers can be unreliable and they take up 1.5 unit cycles on useful things (still pretty cool though) and scout scvs tend to get picked off by lings and stalkers.
This is hugely annoying in TvP where there's almost no way to 100% tell what tech path and gateway count the protoss is going based off of whatever few hints I can glean from what I see.
And I'm ok with that.
I think idra is demanding too much by saying that zerg's inability to know everything that can be seen is a fundamental problem with the game that has to be fixed. Protoss have that and Terran have that. There are times in the game where, within reason, it is impossible/difficult to see exactly what we need to see to be able to quickly switch to some sort of optimal counter and we just have to deal with that.
Yeah, sometimes we get dumb losses as we try to cut corners or make a misread or just lose out by a few seconds when we're doing some thing. That's Starcraft 2. Hell, it's also Starcraft 1 (if you want an example, early/mid game PvZ after a 12 hatch vs forge FE openings there's a sizable window where the Protoss has to get lucky and sneak a probe out to see if he's not getting randomly hydra/ling busted before he can get a corsair out to scout, and that's just 1 off the top of my head).
But, to be fair to idra, these situations to tend to crop up a fair bit for zerg. Considering just how fast they can boom their economy and get all over the map (at least in ZvT) I'm unsure what sort of change should be implemented.
Oh, in addition, being able to counter something a Protoss does and not being able to use the units I built to apply counter aggression because of motherfucking sentries is quite common in tvp too, I've found. Goddamn 3 gate. Damn it to hell!
|
On May 05 2011 17:41 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 17:01 Durn wrote:On May 05 2011 16:59 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Yea I agree with syllogism on that, although I personally will tune out next time Idra starts doing that again it does really help viewer count since many people love the drama that it brings to the group. Also seemed nutty that he had like 14K on his live stream a little while after but this is the same conclusion I came to, people just love there drama. ^^ I still don't see the problem. I've read through the 20+ pages that this has genrrated and have yet to see a really strong refuting statement for what IdrA is saying. He wasn't being a bully, he wasn't being brash. He was being thorough and intelligent, and Day[9] was not meeting him halfway in that discussion. You and me have totally different views on what is thorough and intelligent then. I heard the same old balance stuff being sprouted. Even if zergs are UP the way Idra presents it is just so tiresome and obviously biased. Everything is exaggerations and hyperbole with him. Good/average players are shit, zergs aren't slightly weak; they are shit or a joke, scouting can't be done yet he does it regularly on his stream, earlier one base couldn't possibly hold two rax yet it does today. That kind of arguing is not productive and it feels like he's only preaching to the choir as i can't see anyone being swayed in their beliefs by someone so biased and black and white.
2rax is still insane and the only reason it's not OP as it once was is because map distances have changed immensely and some maps can't be blocked at the bottom by double bunker. IdrA will often times scout because people have poor buliding placement or don't kill his overlord quickly enough. You shouldn't use poor play as an example of balance. It has to be looked at optimally or almost optimally played. While clearly is nobody playing perfectly, it's easy to understand that at high levels of play, scouting should be easy to deny.
You mention that he brought up the same old stuff and it's tiresome. That's because his primary complaint has always been the lack of scouting, in one way or another and the inability to play defensively without a large economic sacrifice that can easily be punished by feints. Where a lot of people get lost is that Terran (to a lesser extent protoss) hasn't been able to abuse this simply because of the fluctuation in builds done at the moment and their own inability to fully use their race.
People talk about clues when you scout. However, when standard responses are figured out, then T/P can fake those responses and hit a different path. The Zerg is playing with just as little information and still has paths that very greatly lying in front of them to choose from. Does he have a second OC in his base just powering scv's to expand or does he have a factory getting blue flame?
|
On May 05 2011 17:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games.
the problem is solely with the game design then and it's fucked up to discredit other people for winning at a game that may lean more towards metagame ("coin flips") over recon. saying people don't deserve to win just because they aren't playing within the confines of how you think the game should be played is offputting and does nothing for the actual balance debate. i think that's what day9 is getting at and what incontrol is getting annoyed at on the show
|
On May 05 2011 17:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games.
People have given up trying to refute anything from zergs cause it's pointless. Regardless of what you say it can't be done/only idiots fall for it/just luck/any other excuse. There's just such a widespread defeatist attitude from zergs right now that most people just keep away from it altogether. Zergs aren't missing from the GM league, they have a healthy representation yet everyone cries imbalance like it was some super huge abyss between the races.
Someone posted win ratios for the GSL. Zergs had 40% against P and 40% against T. That's not 50/50 but BW didn't have 50/50 win rates either.
|
On May 05 2011 17:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games.
Zergs can scout a protoss supereasy because you can mineralwalk ur drone past the zealot without the drone dieing.
If u time this right the sentry shouldn't be out yet but u can see perfectly what the protoss is doing, 1 gas or 2 gas? / allready more gateways? / tech buildings?
It's that simple vs protoss, terran is a different story tho
|
On May 05 2011 17:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games.
How is this any different to Protoss? Protoss do not have access to reasonable scouting until 6-7 mins into the game at which point Hallucination or an observer becomes available. Protoss cannot get through a wall any better than Zerg. It isn't any easier to tell if a SCV all-in is coming as Protoss.
People shouldn't get so worked up about getting that darn overlord over the wall, but rather why the lack of scouting has such a negative effect on Zerg.
It shouldn't be about being able to see everything the opponent is doing--that is just stupid, you would be able to negate half the openings people do--but rather be able to react to what they have done in an appropriate manner.
It is like 2Rax SCV or or Roach-Ling allins vs Protoss, you can't see them coming, but you you can play in a way that allows you to react deal with it where if you are the better player, you can win the majority of the time without needing a darn observer 4mins into the game or putting you on the back foot the rest of the game if they didn't end up doing it.
This is what you should be striving to achieve, wanting to be able to see everything your opponent is doing is not the solution.
This is a derail not particularly worth discussing, but I actually had to do a quick search of my post history to find out if I truly openly talk about things that should be fixed. Couldn't find anything besides the acknowledgment that ZvP has issues, but I didn't dig too far; I fully expect that I occasionally succumb to the temptation to complain. In a more open environment, say irc, I do discuss/complain about balance, but I do it while fully realizing I don't have sufficient knowledge at all to actually pretend to be any sort of authority on the subject and mostly point to top koreans complaining about the same things. There are also two separate issues, with one being balance and the other being that protoss as it stands is just boring to watch. Any level players should be free to discuss these things somewhere, but it should be done in a reasonable manner rather than aggressively attacking players who clearly understand the game way more than you do.
You know what, I'm not going to lie. I saw a post about you talking about a Deathball and then saw a bunch of posts in IdrA's fanclub and put the two together. I apologize for that. 
You say there are two issues, ZvP and "Protoss being boring", but I didn't talk about either of them. Quite frankly I don't care what he says about balance. My point of contention is with his views of SC1, his sense of entitlement and how he structures his argument, which as someone fairly astute pointed out earlier, is full of logical fallacies.
|
On May 05 2011 18:04 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 17:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games. Zergs can scout a protoss supereasy because you can mineralwalk ur drone past the zealot without the drone dieing. If u time this right the sentry shouldn't be out yet but u can see perfectly what the protoss is doing, 1 gas or 2 gas? / allready more gateways? / tech buildings? It's that simple vs protoss, terran is a different story tho
Yeah, that works if the protoss is using a 1zealot opening wall. As soon as a stalker/sentry comes out it's completely denied, which is long before any real tech buildings. You're still forced to suicide overlords and hope the opponent is too bad to deny it.
|
On May 05 2011 18:08 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 17:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games. How is this any different to Protoss? Protoss do not have access to reasonable scouting until 6-7 mins into the game at which point Hallucination or an observer becomes available. Protoss cannot get through a wall any better than Zerg. It isn't any easier to tell if a SCV all-in is coming as Protoss. People shouldn't get so worked up about getting that darn overlord over the wall, but rather why the lack of scouting has such a negative effect on Zerg. It shouldn't be about being able to see everything the opponent is doing--that is just stupid, you would be able to negate half the openings people do--but rather be able to react to what they have done in an appropriate manner. It is like 2Rax SCV or or Roach-Ling allins vs Protoss, you can't see them coming, but you you can play in a way that allows you to react deal with it where if you are the better player, you can win the majority of the time without needing a darn observer 4mins into the game or putting you on the back foot the rest of the game if they didn't end up doing it. This is what you should be striving to achieve, wanting to be able to see everything your opponent is doing is not the solution.
It's a good counter-argument, but Idra DID cover this in his dicussion with Day9, spines are too slow. You CAN'T play reactively. A toss, if he has warpgates, can warp in the units needed to defend and use sentries to stall at the ramp. It's not perfect, but it helps a lot. A zerg has to throw down spines and build lings, everything else is too slow... and then you have to stall until the spines are finished.
|
On May 05 2011 18:00 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 17:41 karpo wrote:On May 05 2011 17:01 Durn wrote:On May 05 2011 16:59 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Yea I agree with syllogism on that, although I personally will tune out next time Idra starts doing that again it does really help viewer count since many people love the drama that it brings to the group. Also seemed nutty that he had like 14K on his live stream a little while after but this is the same conclusion I came to, people just love there drama. ^^ I still don't see the problem. I've read through the 20+ pages that this has genrrated and have yet to see a really strong refuting statement for what IdrA is saying. He wasn't being a bully, he wasn't being brash. He was being thorough and intelligent, and Day[9] was not meeting him halfway in that discussion. You and me have totally different views on what is thorough and intelligent then. I heard the same old balance stuff being sprouted. Even if zergs are UP the way Idra presents it is just so tiresome and obviously biased. Everything is exaggerations and hyperbole with him. Good/average players are shit, zergs aren't slightly weak; they are shit or a joke, scouting can't be done yet he does it regularly on his stream, earlier one base couldn't possibly hold two rax yet it does today. That kind of arguing is not productive and it feels like he's only preaching to the choir as i can't see anyone being swayed in their beliefs by someone so biased and black and white. 2rax is still insane and the only reason it's not OP as it once was is because map distances have changed immensely and some maps can't be blocked at the bottom by double bunker. IdrA will often times scout because people have poor buliding placement or don't kill his overlord quickly enough. You shouldn't use poor play as an example of balance. It has to be looked at optimally or almost optimally played. While clearly is nobody playing perfectly, it's easy to understand that at high levels of play, scouting should be easy to deny. You mention that he brought up the same old stuff and it's tiresome. That's because his primary complaint has always been the lack of scouting, in one way or another and the inability to play defensively without a large economic sacrifice that can easily be punished by feints. Where a lot of people get lost is that Terran (to a lesser extent protoss) hasn't been able to abuse this simply because of the fluctuation in builds done at the moment and their own inability to fully use their race. People talk about clues when you scout. However, when standard responses are figured out, then T/P can fake those responses and hit a different path. The Zerg is playing with just as little information and still has paths that very greatly lying in front of them to choose from. Does he have a second OC in his base just powering scv's to expand or does he have a factory getting blue flame?
His whine isn't just based on early game scouting. Colossus is op, new archon change might be op, blink stalker op, 2 rax op, sentries op are just some of the things he's said the last 6 months. It's tiresome because his complaints are always hyperbole and never down to earn try-to-be-objective arguments. He said that Rainbow gave away the win to Fruitdealer on Twitter, In a interview he said that Nestea had a lucky break to win the GSL, many times he falls back to the "zerg won only due to opponent being bad". It's all been said before and it's just not interesting for anyone beside zergs to get into a argument started that way.
If you want to start a serious discussion about balance and what to do about certain parts of the game where zergs have problems, do it while trying to be objective and seing both sides of the coin. This is rarely if ever done in balance discussions here or on battle.net cause people just can't agree on what is balanced and what is not due to bias.
|
On May 05 2011 18:09 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 18:04 Jakkerr wrote:On May 05 2011 17:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think the important point with Idra is that no matter how many people call him a whiner and a QQer, fact remains that his arguments are sound and no one is properly refuting them. Zergs have the hardest time scouting by far, and it CAN be denied completely, especially by a terran. Zergs CAN'T get through a wall in without going semi-all in, such as a baneling bust or roach rush. This is an issue with the game design, and has been considered as such since the beta. It's nothing new, it's not getting fixed, and as the playerbase gets better, it might become a more serious problem. No one wants coinflip games. Zergs can scout a protoss supereasy because you can mineralwalk ur drone past the zealot without the drone dieing. If u time this right the sentry shouldn't be out yet but u can see perfectly what the protoss is doing, 1 gas or 2 gas? / allready more gateways? / tech buildings? It's that simple vs protoss, terran is a different story tho Yeah, that works if the protoss is using a 1zealot opening wall. As soon as a stalker/sentry comes out it's completely denied, which is long before any real tech buildings. You're still forced to suicide overlords and hope the opponent is too bad to deny it.
By the time the first stalker or sentry comes out (and chases down the drone) you can check whether he has both gas (and is mining the second), whether he's saved chronoboost and where he's using it, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
