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I'm sure Idra and Day[9]'s positions have been said accurately in this thread since the most recent SotG, but I am seeing enough straw men that I would like to attempt to provide an accurate summary of them to correct some of the awful misunderstandings taking place.
One example of imbalance Idra sees: Terran can potentially deny scouting against Zerg for the early game. Zerg has no defensive stance that they can prepare and not be at a large economic disadvantage that counters every early/midgame push that Terran can throw at them. Obviously a zerg can try and scout with an overlord but a good player can deny that with very few marines. Tanks, banshees, fast expand, and marauders demand different appropriate reactions from the zerg player and it is possible that no matter how good the Zerg player is, he will not know which is coming. This makes the game into a guessing game, not one of skill. Spine crawlers currently do nothing to help the problem because even if he seees the attack coming as soon as he possibly can, there is not enough time to react, because according to Idra, there is no map with a rush distance long enough for spine crawlers to build. At the highest level, investing in spine crawlers before you know that you will need them is retarded and will lose you games.
Keep in mind that Idra believes there are other aspects of the game that are not balanced. He also rightly believes that he can compensate for imbalance by simply being better than his competitors but this advantage will decrease with time (probabably).
Day[9]'s thought of substance was that whatever the best strategies are, they will eventually be adopted by everyone. And people might keep discovering new viable strategies. He was not at all concerned that all three races be viable competitively and as such is not even concerned with "balancing" the three races.
Everything from here down is more subjective and based off my own speculations. I hope I did a decent job of summarizing above.
The conversation between Idra and Tyler was interesting and here is my speculative guess as to what Idra agreed on with him:
The situation for zerg is currently imbalanced in one respect because scouting is rendered almost impossible until liar tech. This makes it a guessing game or worse for zerg. If the game were to be balanced by denying earlier scouting to protoss and terran, it might be balanced in that its a 50/50 chance of winning for either player but it would still be a horrible game.
In consequence a good game, would allow for all three races to gather similar amounts of information for similar costs in similar times and thus allow for players to react to eachother in a way that would bring the game into its later stages instead of forcing all-ins.
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On May 05 2011 14:12 tychusfuddley wrote:
worst sotg episode ever. incontrol ranting for 40 minutes about eg tournament is so ridiculous, and it really pissed me off when he yelled about stride gum throwing in bunch of f bombs, and some dumb comment about tylers texan brain. Someone should tell incontrol that sotg is not a debate show, he was using bunch of big words, so lol, my god incontrol had something stuck up his butt that 40 mins.
It's not Incontrol that was ranting, it was Tyler. He was just explaining/defending his team's view on the matter. I'm not even sure if you were listening to the same episode I was listening to.
Plus, it's not your show to say whether SotG is or is not a debate show. Last time I checked, they've been discussing different topics since the very beginning and people have had different views on everything. It's not like they can't speak their opinions about things.
P.S. You really need to stop trolling.
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On May 05 2011 14:12 tychusfuddley wrote:
worst sotg episode ever. incontrol ranting for 40 minutes about eg tournament is so ridiculous, and it really pissed me off when he yelled about stride gum throwing in bunch of f bombs, and some dumb comment about tylers texan brain. Someone should tell incontrol that sotg is not a debate show, he was using bunch of big words, so lol, my god incontrol had something stuck up his butt that 40 mins.
Cool post bro. You forgot to mention the part where Tyler kept dogging on the guy running the masters cup for 40 minutes supported by the worst reasoning ever. I wish the argument didn't happen but to shit on incontrol for defending .. (was it colbi ? ~_~) from what Tyler was saying is pretty stupid and childish.
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On May 05 2011 14:13 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:07 PJA wrote:
When IdrA says that terran is not the weakest race, but they are the hardest to play, what the hell does that even mean?
I would say that, by definition, a race which requires more skill to achieve similar results with is weaker than a race which requires less skill to achieve those same results with.
I would also define that race to be the hardest to play.
I am not saying that IdrA is incorrect, since it's really just semantics, but what definitions is he using? Is "hardest" just another word for "requires the most APM" ? I would argue that the strongest race is the race with the greatest potential for success given near perfect play. In other words, the race that rewards the most skill/ability, or the one with the highest skill cap.
I don't really want to know what you would argue is the strongest race; that's entirely irrelevant. I would like to know what definition IdrA is using for the terms "weakest/strongest race" and "easiest/hardest to play race." If you'd like to argue that the definition you have provided is the one that IdrA uses, that would be a different case.
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On May 05 2011 14:21 espritsc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:12 tychusfuddley wrote:
worst sotg episode ever. incontrol ranting for 40 minutes about eg tournament is so ridiculous, and it really pissed me off when he yelled about stride gum throwing in bunch of f bombs, and some dumb comment about tylers texan brain. Someone should tell incontrol that sotg is not a debate show, he was using bunch of big words, so lol, my god incontrol had something stuck up his butt that 40 mins. It's not Incontrol that was ranting, it was Tyler. He was just explaining/defending his team's view. I'm not even sure if you were listening to the same episode I was listening to. Plus, it's not your show to say whether SotG is or is not a debate show. Last time I checked, they've been discussing different topics since the very beginning and people have had different views on everything. It's not like they can't speak their opinions about things.
if incontrol had an issue, he should of pm tyler or made a post on the forum. he started the whole rant for 40 minutes, and started using words that made the whole podcast so uninteresting , and throwing in bunch of f bombs with that ridiculous scary tone was not cool
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Eh, drama drama. It was still good to get a firsthand view on everything going on, though. Thanks, guys.
I feel like I respect you guys, especially Geoff, a lot more now after this. And it was ubercool to see Tasteless!
On May 05 2011 13:35 Bearbear wrote:
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Amazing.
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On May 05 2011 14:28 tychusfuddley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:21 espritsc wrote:On May 05 2011 14:12 tychusfuddley wrote:
worst sotg episode ever. incontrol ranting for 40 minutes about eg tournament is so ridiculous, and it really pissed me off when he yelled about stride gum throwing in bunch of f bombs, and some dumb comment about tylers texan brain. Someone should tell incontrol that sotg is not a debate show, he was using bunch of big words, so lol, my god incontrol had something stuck up his butt that 40 mins. It's not Incontrol that was ranting, it was Tyler. He was just explaining/defending his team's view. I'm not even sure if you were listening to the same episode I was listening to. Plus, it's not your show to say whether SotG is or is not a debate show. Last time I checked, they've been discussing different topics since the very beginning and people have had different views on everything. It's not like they can't speak their opinions about things. if incontrol had an issue, he should of pm tyler or made a post on the forum. he started the whole rant for 40 minutes, and started using words that made the whole podcast so uninteresting , and throwing in bunch of f bombs with that ridiculous scary tone was not cool
..? Tyler was the one doing the "whole rant for 40 minutes." Not faulting him for explaining his views, but he was really the one talking.
And "fuck" is a frequently used word on this show, as well as a favorite of this forum. Free language is one of the benefits of a mature community that focuses on ideas rather than details of diction. If you have actual problems with this podcast, I suggest you not use that to spearhead your crusade.
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I enjoyed the episode personally.
JP puts the whole show together nicely.
- Machine + Idra on the same cam was funny at times, Machine definitely talks himself down but seems like a really lighthearted/nice guy.
- Tasteless was a great addition i thought, i thought he added some light hearted humour to more of a serious episode. I like the fact that he came back in to talk more about another topic, it's a shame he doesn't have time to come on more.
- Tyler talking about " coin flips" etc was really interesting,( I'd like to hear more about that!) i really think Idra started listening when he started talking, and was disregarding Day9 because of his previous " i laugh whenever someone mentions balance " comment ( not that i agree with either party, but i think that's why he was reluctant to actually accept or listen to Day9's opinion).
iNcontrol always cracks me up, so he was "standard".
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IdrA NEEDS to be more specific if he wants to be taken seriously by anyone and not assumed to be trolling.
What type of early builds are you talking about greg? A stim timing? that is terrible with the stim nerf. Anything else early by bio you should have enough to defend if you AREN'T playing greedily (like most zergs do). You don't NEED to sac an overlord to scout.. you can send lings up the ramp and see from there. Addons etc are HUGE giveaways. In ZvP it's just 4 gate, which makes ONE stalker which will not kill your overlord before you can scout. 4 gate is an easy easy counter once you scout it.
He's over hyping how dificult zerg early game is. Pre making spinecrawlers if you don't scout an expo is always a good idea. It doesn't put you behind as much as setting down some cannons at a protoss expo does.
TLDR IdrA: You can't EXPECT to play greedily all the time and not die / get behind. If you can't scout, you may have to make some more units instead of making 12 drones at a time. For example, if a protoss loses his obs to a scan he is in the dark and will probably make some more units. This is a simple concept IdrA and most zergs can not grasp.. you can't play so greedily.
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On May 05 2011 14:22 Open_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:12 tychusfuddley wrote:
worst sotg episode ever. incontrol ranting for 40 minutes about eg tournament is so ridiculous, and it really pissed me off when he yelled about stride gum throwing in bunch of f bombs, and some dumb comment about tylers texan brain. Someone should tell incontrol that sotg is not a debate show, he was using bunch of big words, so lol, my god incontrol had something stuck up his butt that 40 mins. Cool post bro. You forgot to mention the part where Tyler kept dogging on the guy running the masters cup for 40 minutes supported by the worst reasoning ever. I wish the argument didn't happen but to shit on incontrol for defending .. (was it colbi ? ~_~) from what Tyler was saying is pretty stupid and childish.
i dont care what tyler said or what he did in that post. incontrol bringing it up in sotg was lame. i did not even know about the whole drama until incontrol brought it up. I have been listening to sotg since first episode, and them going off on some completely random topic that had not much to do with sc2 strategies, balance changes or tournament results was not cool. Incontrol bringing up some personal issue and circle jerking it for 40 minutes was pretty lame.
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On May 05 2011 14:11 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:02 Rabiator wrote:On May 05 2011 13:43 MajorityofOne wrote:On May 05 2011 13:41 Rabiator wrote:On May 05 2011 12:59 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 05 2011 09:58 Joeyz1 wrote:
My question is, what is wrong with going an early lair, like the Protoss would normally go early Robotics, and then continuing the game on like normal otherwise?
Zerg doesn't have force fields to delay. Sure they do. They are called Spine Crawlers, but they need to be made in advance and dont cost gas. They are even mobile to a certain extent ... This is one of the things where I never really agree with Day9, because he always - coming from the BW logic - says "this is a Spine Crawler which he didnt want to make". Since they are mobile and can advance with your creep to cover chokes anywhere on the map, I think this logic is outdated and Spine Crawlers are a great thing to have as a supporting structure. Somewhat true, but you could argue that nobody ever "wants" to make a defensive structure. Ideally all you'd ever need is workers and units. Now of course nobody can actually play that way, a Terran needs turrets against Zerg, and Protoss needs cannons if its to fast expand, and so on. That doesn't mean you want them, you just sort of need them But that is the misperception about Spine Crawlers ... they arent just a defensive structure, but can also be used offensively (as a support structure to fall back to) if your creep spread is good enough. You dont even have to be supergood at spreading creep, just build a highway with your Overlords once you are ready to move out and send one Queen to the critical position to dump one Tumor ... Btw. ... what is so wrong in wanting to be safe? Turtling (mech) Terrans do it all the time and they risk a lot once they move out without adequate base protection. The "I must be defensive" phase for Zerg only lasts until the midgame and the key point is to survive until then in the CHEAPEST WAY POSSIBLE. Sadly the Zerglings which 99% of Zerg build are the weakest combat unit in the game and thus you have to reproduce them, which equals wasted money to me. The only two good things about them is that they are fast (with speed upgrade) and can scout when the enemy is leaving his base AND you can kill retreating enemy units very easily with them. The issue isn't that "wanting to be safe" is bad, it's just that nobody ever WANTS to spend on primarily defensive structures in order to be safe. You're FORCED to given the general trends in standard play, just like a Terran is forced to throw down turrets in TvZ. If Zerg could play effectively without spines, they would. Right now it isn't really feasible, and it probably never should be given how strong Zerg's midgame can be. I don't really know that spines could be effective offensively. It's an interesting idea, but siege tanks and colossi both outrange them, and those two units are standard versus Z. They provide a nice position to fall back to, but the zerg army is supposed to be mobile, just keeping it one place near spines is basically a gift to your opponent
1. I DO want to spend money on defensive structures. Thats just a reminder that we are all humans and have different ways of doing / looking at things.
2. The example with Colossi and Tanks is just what I would have expected, but if you do that and then argue that the Spines are totally useless I could go on and say "Why dont you kill the Tanks / Colossi with your Broodlords then?".
The thing is that many Terrans are still using bio armies and they DONT outrange the Spines. You just need an adequate number of Spine Crawlers to endanger the bio army and "1-2" dont really scare a ball of 20 Marines and Marauders with Stim.
Since Spine Crawlers have a range of 7 and extended Colossi only a range of 9 the Gateway support units arent either in range of the Spine OR they are only stacked "2 squares deep" so you can get to the Colossi a little easier. In any case the ZERG is restricting the movement in the same way a Protoss does with Forcefields (well its not exactly the same way, but you are limiting their movement). You could possibly "skip Roaches" that way and replace them with part Hydra, part Queen (transfuse on the Spines and long range anti-air attack vs Colossi and Meatshields vs. Zealots) and part Infestor (Neural Parasite is range 9 just like the Colossus).
One of the weaknesses of Zerg is that they dont have a siege unit and that their ranged attacks are somewhat on the short range. This makes them vulnerable in chokes, but the Spine Crawler outranges every tier 1 unit and is mobile, so it can be used to control these spaces. The one exception I see is terran mech with Siege Tanks, but due to the immobility of that unit you can win easily in other ways and this style doesnt apply early pressure to you in the first place (just get enough Spine Crawlers to scare off Hellion harrass). Against mech the Spine Crawlers will simply serve to slow down the enemy advance.
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You are forgetting the fact that toss always build cannons to be safe (zerg is just as unscoutable early game). Zerg can afford buildinig static defense blindly because you are easily always 1 base ahead, you can make like 10 drones at a time and you can relocate spines if you want to defend something else later. Idra and all other zerg seem to want to be able to drone like shit, no matter what you do. The better player wins without taking risks, even vs someone who takes them. Prove you are 3x better than X player.
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On May 05 2011 13:42 Canadium wrote:^^ Bearbear that's probably the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. Thank you  I think that's a bad thing for the game and for e-sports. The reason why BW is so entertaining is because the game has continued to evolve over the years without new patches coming out every 2 months and changing everything..... What this game needs is more time between patches. I'd say a year at least.
This thinking is a little naive at this point in time.
Personally I'm unopposed to the semi-frequent changes. This is mostly a result of a newer age of technology and learning--I come from a fighting game background and it's largely the same situation (and by this I mean, you played with what you were given and dealt with it, imbalances or not). Changes can occur more frequently because of several things:
1) There are way more people playing now than there ever have been, resulting in feedback en masse about certain topics.
2) The average player level rises dramatically in an environment where information is almost free-flowing, never has there been so much content so readily available. There weren't the kind of streams that there are now, to put it in fighting game terms: people would save some special trick or tactic for the largest tournaments of the year--these tricks were often things that would now be considered rudimentary and basic but at the time with the lack of free flowing knowledge if you were to figure it out before the rest of the crowd you were in a power position.
In this environment, changes occur more rapidly because there are so many people trying to flesh out the changes together and sharing this knowledge literally all day every day on sites just like this one. It's easier to get relevant information about changes this way.
3) The paradigm of Blizzard design is now to fix immediate issues through patches (the dominance of 4gate for instance) and save broader issues for expansions (the supposed weakness of zerg for instance).
This can be frustrating for veterans who essentially got to play a game that almost never changed numerically throughout the course of it's existence. So while there are a lot of people who will be frustrated about things changing, try and have some fun with it. It's just how it's going to be, they work through balance changes a lot faster than they used to, though I agree some more time should be given for certain things, particularly the idea that zerg is underpowered.
I feel like zerg's are still horrendously underusing the Nydus Network, Hydra drops, infestors, burrowed roaches, and earlier gas builds. I feel like they try to win battles with their mid-tier units against armies with mid tier units / top tier units and then are surprised when they lose.. I think a lot of work needs to be done on the zerg end, a lot of work needs to be done on all races really. I have no doubts that eventually the Protoss Death-Ball style of play will become archaic and childish in the face of more mobile armies etc.. it'll just take time.
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On May 05 2011 14:19 Sava Fischer wrote:
I'm sure Idra and Day[9]'s positions have been said accurately in this thread since the most recent SotG, but I am seeing enough straw men that I would like to attempt to provide an accurate summary of them to correct some of the awful misunderstandings taking place.
One example of imbalance Idra sees: Terran can potentially deny scouting against Zerg for the early game. Zerg has no defensive stance that they can prepare and not be at a large economic disadvantage that counters every early/midgame push that Terran can throw at them. Obviously a zerg can try and scout with an overlord but a good player can deny that with very few marines. Tanks, banshees, fast expand, and marauders demand different appropriate reactions from the zerg player and it is possible that no matter how good the Zerg player is, he will not know which is coming. This makes the game into a guessing game, not one of skill. Spine crawlers currently do nothing to help the problem because even if he seees the attack coming as soon as he possibly can, there is not enough time to react, because according to Idra, there is no map with a rush distance long enough for spine crawlers to build. At the highest level, investing in spine crawlers before you know that you will need them is retarded and will lose you games.
Keep in mind that Idra believes there are other aspects of the game that are not balanced. He also rightly believes that he can compensate for imbalance by simply being better than his competitors but this advantage will decrease with time (probabably).
Day[9]'s thought of substance was that whatever the best strategies are, they will eventually be adopted by everyone. And people might keep discovering new viable strategies. He was not at all concerned that all three races be viable competitively and as such is not even concerned with "balancing" the three races.
Everything from here down is more subjective and based off my own speculations. I hope I did a decent job of summarizing above.
The conversation between Idra and Tyler was interesting and here is my speculative guess as to what Idra agreed on with him:
The situation for zerg is currently imbalanced in one respect because scouting is rendered almost impossible until liar tech. This makes it a guessing game or worse for zerg. If the game were to be balanced by denying earlier scouting to protoss and terran, it might be balanced in that its a 50/50 chance of winning for either player but it would still be a horrible game.
In consequence a good game, would allow for all three races to gather similar amounts of information for similar costs in similar times and thus allow for players to react to eachother in a way that would bring the game into its later stages instead of forcing all-ins.
1) He wasn't just talking about versus T, he was also talking about it being difficult to scout versus P
2) Scouting is not 'impossible" before lair tech. You need to infer things about your opponents build based on suboptimal information. Nobody can hide everything from an overlord sack, nor will you ever get nothing from checking the front with lings. If that isn't enough for you to narrow down what your opponent is doing, and you decide to play greedy, you deserve what you get. A protoss doesn't get free info once lings are out, and a terran needs to waste a mule, his only means of economic competition, for his free peak.
3) The reactions necessary aren't even that different, you need a few specific ways to handle "tech" based plays and a specific way to handle low-tier all-ins. Scouting out which one is coming isn't even difficult once you've seen they're staying on one base; against Terran all you need to see is whether they've taken both gasses. If they have, it's a tech, if they haven't its either units or an in-base fast CC. I don't know PvZ well enough to comment, but the very fact that stalkers as opposed to sentries are shooting down your overlord should tell you something about the build.
4) Any true one-base play is as risky for a Terran or Toss as it is for the Zerg defending it. They're guessing that you won't react correctly; as I mentioned above, a coinflip build goes both ways. There's a reason high-level Terrans are massively favoring the reasonably fast expo against Zerg, whether from a 2rax, a fast hellion, or straight up. It's because one-base plays simply don't work reliably, and are reliant on Zerg playing poorly. The most viable is the banshee opening, and even that leaves you miles behind unless you correctly "guess" that they arent going to grab a fast evo or lair.
5) Some Zerg builds do require blind spine crawlers. They're not particularly rare even at the highest levels of play. PvZ often incorporates blind cannons and TvZ basically always involves blind turrets.
6) If Idra thinks he can compensate for imbalance with skill, he should also logically infer that he could dominate if he didn't play a weak race. So it's a foolish choice to stick with Zerg, when if his own opinion of his skill is correct he could be in the elite tier with Terran or Protoss.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 05 2011 14:24 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:13 Whitewing wrote:On May 05 2011 14:07 PJA wrote:
When IdrA says that terran is not the weakest race, but they are the hardest to play, what the hell does that even mean?
I would say that, by definition, a race which requires more skill to achieve similar results with is weaker than a race which requires less skill to achieve those same results with.
I would also define that race to be the hardest to play.
I am not saying that IdrA is incorrect, since it's really just semantics, but what definitions is he using? Is "hardest" just another word for "requires the most APM" ? I would argue that the strongest race is the race with the greatest potential for success given near perfect play. In other words, the race that rewards the most skill/ability, or the one with the highest skill cap. I don't really want to know what you would argue is the strongest race; that's entirely irrelevant. I would like to know what definition IdrA is using for the terms "weakest/strongest race" and "easiest/hardest to play race." If you'd like to argue that the definition you have provided is the one that IdrA uses, that would be a different case.
Well, it's the only response that really makes sense, given that IdrA thinks he's one of the best players in the world and way better than anyone who's not from Korea, so ease of play wouldn't be an issue. Rather, he feels that his race isn't allowing his skill to shine.
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On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
IdrA NEEDS to be more specific if he wants to be taken seriously by anyone and not assumed to be trolling.
What type of early builds are you talking about greg? A stim timing? that is terrible with the stim nerf. Anything else early by bio you should have enough to defend if you AREN'T playing greedily (like most zergs do).
the point is that "not playing greedy" puts you behind by a large margin in the mid game because you're short on drones. that means that if, instead of early pushing the terran makes another CC in base and over saturates in a prep to expand, when you see the expand and can begin to compensate you are about 15 harvesters behind in addition to MULEs because you made lings/roaches instead, and you can't counterpush because of tanks and bunkers shutting down lings and roaches.
On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
You don't NEED to sac an overlord to scout.. you can send lings up the ramp and see from there. Addons etc are HUGE giveaways.
if you're good the only thing i see is 3 marines and a bunker, which may or may not have an addon. lets say you see 2 supply depots, 4 marines, and a rax with no add on. is he saving money to expo? saving gas to make banshees? saving gas to make drops? saving gas to make blue flame? saving gas to make thors? making 5 more raxes and hiding the marines? it tells you nothing.
On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
In ZvP it's just 4 gate, which makes ONE stalker which will not kill your overlord before you can scout. 4 gate is an easy easy counter once you scout it.
because it's impossible to 4gate once you make a sentry. and 1 stalker CAN kill the overlord if you don't just leave it at your ramp. i'm not sure if you noticed, but overlords are slow and hell and CANNOT scout the whole base before the stalker kills it.
On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
He's over hyping how dificult zerg early game is. Pre making spinecrawlers if you don't scout an expo is always a good idea. It doesn't put you behind as much as setting down some cannons at a protoss expo does.
yes it does. same cost, but mine costs a worker in addition to minerals. would you drop those 3 safety cannons at your natural if each one also costed a probe?
On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
TLDR IdrA: You can't EXPECT to play greedily all the time and not die / get behind. If you can't scout, you may have to make some more units instead of making 12 drones at a time. For example, if a protoss loses his obs to a scan he is in the dark and will probably make some more units. This is a simple concept IdrA and most zergs can not grasp.. you can't play so greedily.
the issue is that if zerg "doesn't play greedy" then they are behind. that is the nature of the race. if you don't use every larva for drones and also take an early expo then you simply do not have the drone count the toss or terran does (if you take into acount mules). the amount of defense you have to make to be "safe" from everything puts you worlds behind even that. if you lose your obs as a toss you keep making units, but you don't have to cut probes. if you lose your overseer and dont' get a read on what the player is doing, you can either make units to make sure that you don't lose to a push in 30 seconds, or you can get drones so you don't lose to the push that could come in 10 minutes. protoss and terran you just keep making units and workers at the same time wiht no cost to either.
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On May 05 2011 14:45 MajorityofOne wrote:
6) If Idra thinks he can compensate for imbalance with skill, he should also logically infer that he could dominate if he didn't play a weak race. So it's a foolish choice to stick with Zerg, when if his own opinion of his skill is correct he could be in the elite tier with Terran or Protoss.
Does practice automatically give you "skill"? I feel IdrA is stuck in his own "Zerg are UP and weak" mantra and thus is limiting his own game. He probably has "tried everything" (which I ALWAYS doubt) in the past and discarded several ideas as "not worth it". So in a sense he has convinced himself that he doesnt have many options and hence the rantings goes on.
IMO IdrA needs a brainwipe to clear his memory about what works and what doesnt so he can have a fresh start. His rantings are useless because they come from someone wearing blink(d)ers.
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On May 05 2011 14:39 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:11 MajorityofOne wrote:On May 05 2011 14:02 Rabiator wrote:On May 05 2011 13:43 MajorityofOne wrote:On May 05 2011 13:41 Rabiator wrote:On May 05 2011 12:59 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 05 2011 09:58 Joeyz1 wrote:
My question is, what is wrong with going an early lair, like the Protoss would normally go early Robotics, and then continuing the game on like normal otherwise?
Zerg doesn't have force fields to delay. Sure they do. They are called Spine Crawlers, but they need to be made in advance and dont cost gas. They are even mobile to a certain extent ... This is one of the things where I never really agree with Day9, because he always - coming from the BW logic - says "this is a Spine Crawler which he didnt want to make". Since they are mobile and can advance with your creep to cover chokes anywhere on the map, I think this logic is outdated and Spine Crawlers are a great thing to have as a supporting structure. Somewhat true, but you could argue that nobody ever "wants" to make a defensive structure. Ideally all you'd ever need is workers and units. Now of course nobody can actually play that way, a Terran needs turrets against Zerg, and Protoss needs cannons if its to fast expand, and so on. That doesn't mean you want them, you just sort of need them But that is the misperception about Spine Crawlers ... they arent just a defensive structure, but can also be used offensively (as a support structure to fall back to) if your creep spread is good enough. You dont even have to be supergood at spreading creep, just build a highway with your Overlords once you are ready to move out and send one Queen to the critical position to dump one Tumor ... Btw. ... what is so wrong in wanting to be safe? Turtling (mech) Terrans do it all the time and they risk a lot once they move out without adequate base protection. The "I must be defensive" phase for Zerg only lasts until the midgame and the key point is to survive until then in the CHEAPEST WAY POSSIBLE. Sadly the Zerglings which 99% of Zerg build are the weakest combat unit in the game and thus you have to reproduce them, which equals wasted money to me. The only two good things about them is that they are fast (with speed upgrade) and can scout when the enemy is leaving his base AND you can kill retreating enemy units very easily with them. The issue isn't that "wanting to be safe" is bad, it's just that nobody ever WANTS to spend on primarily defensive structures in order to be safe. You're FORCED to given the general trends in standard play, just like a Terran is forced to throw down turrets in TvZ. If Zerg could play effectively without spines, they would. Right now it isn't really feasible, and it probably never should be given how strong Zerg's midgame can be. I don't really know that spines could be effective offensively. It's an interesting idea, but siege tanks and colossi both outrange them, and those two units are standard versus Z. They provide a nice position to fall back to, but the zerg army is supposed to be mobile, just keeping it one place near spines is basically a gift to your opponent 1. I DO want to spend money on defensive structures. Thats just a reminder that we are all humans and have different ways of doing / looking at things. 2. The example with Colossi and Tanks is just what I would have expected, but if you do that and then argue that the Spines are totally useless I could go on and say "Why dont you kill the Tanks / Colossi with your Broodlords then?". The thing is that many Terrans are still using bio armies and they DONT outrange the Spines. You just need an adequate number of Spine Crawlers to endanger the bio army and "1-2" dont really scare a ball of 20 Marines and Marauders with Stim. Since Spine Crawlers have a range of 7 and extended Colossi only a range of 9 the Gateway support units arent either in range of the Spine OR they are only stacked "2 squares deep" so you can get to the Colossi a little easier. In any case the ZERG is restricting the movement in the same way a Protoss does with Forcefields (well its not exactly the same way, but you are limiting their movement). You could possibly "skip Roaches" that way and replace them with part Hydra, part Queen (transfuse on the Spines and long range anti-air attack vs Colossi and Meatshields vs. Zealots) and part Infestor (Neural Parasite is range 9 just like the Colossus). One of the weaknesses of Zerg is that they dont have a siege unit and that their ranged attacks are somewhat on the short range. This makes them vulnerable in chokes, but the Spine Crawler outranges every tier 1 unit and is mobile, so it can be used to control these spaces. The one exception I see is terran mech with Siege Tanks, but due to the immobility of that unit you can win easily in other ways and this style doesnt apply early pressure to you in the first place (just get enough Spine Crawlers to scare off Hellion harrass). Against mech the Spine Crawlers will simply serve to slow down the enemy advance.
I won't comment on the use of spines versus Toss, that's not in my realm of understanding as a Terran. Unless you're keeping your army near your spines though, they're going to be vulnerable, and if you do keep your army with the spines, then you're giving Protoss extra time to build up a push that no amount of spines will stop anyway. But again, I don't know the PvZ matchup that well.
Against Terran though, yeah, they'd have a place if tanks weren't around. But the truth is playing TvZ effectively without tanks is a bit crazy anyway, pure bio is so vulnerable to infestors/banelings that I don't even get why you'd need spines to beat it. Tanks are a reality in most TvZ because Terrans simply aren't safe without them, unless they're doing some kind of bio or thor timing push/all-in. And once tanks are set up, there's never another point in time where offensive spines are meaningful.
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On May 05 2011 14:35 Zythian wrote:
IdrA NEEDS to be more specific if he wants to be taken seriously by anyone and not assumed to be trolling.
What type of early builds are you talking about greg? A stim timing? that is terrible with the stim nerf. Anything else early by bio you should have enough to defend if you AREN'T playing greedily (like most zergs do). You don't NEED to sac an overlord to scout.. you can send lings up the ramp and see from there. Addons etc are HUGE giveaways. In ZvP it's just 4 gate, which makes ONE stalker which will not kill your overlord before you can scout. 4 gate is an easy easy counter once you scout it.
He's over hyping how dificult zerg early game is. Pre making spinecrawlers if you don't scout an expo is always a good idea. It doesn't put you behind as much as setting down some cannons at a protoss expo does.
TLDR IdrA: You can't EXPECT to play greedily all the time and not die / get behind. If you can't scout, you may have to make some more units instead of making 12 drones at a time. For example, if a protoss loses his obs to a scan he is in the dark and will probably make some more units. This is a simple concept IdrA and most zergs can not grasp.. you can't play so greedily.
IdrA was being specific. He used actual examples. Day9 countered by being unspecific, saying "I just don't agree with that," "there must be some way" "zergs haven't explored everything yet."
Keeping imbalance out of this (because IdrA might be right or wrong), at least IdrA argued correctly. He had real points, where as day9 simply repeated that he disagreed over and over again. Day9 kept saying that he "didn't have the time to explain why." That is a very dumb statement to make on a talk show while in the middle of an argument...
From purely a debate angle, IdrA at least argued correctly (even if his points could be incorrect). Day9 had a horrible argument -- if it could even be called an argument. The only times day9 actually brought up real points, IdrA would counter with another point, then day9 would resort back to saying "I just disagree." Well, we know you disagree day9, EXPLAIN YOURSELF! That's what an argument is...
If it were a graded debate, I would give day9 an F for not even really debating.
I want to see someone come on the show who will actually bring real counter arguments to IdrA's points so we can have a good discussion going.
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That lst show was great! Even Tasteless was there!!
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On May 05 2011 14:41 Daimai wrote:
You are forgetting the fact that toss always build cannons to be safe (zerg is just as unscoutable early game). Zerg can afford buildinig static defense blindly because you are easily always 1 base ahead, you can make like 10 drones at a time and you can relocate spines if you want to defend something else later. Idra and all other zerg seem to want to be able to drone like shit, no matter what you do. The better player wins without taking risks, even vs someone who takes them. Prove you are 3x better than X player.
the point is that you dont' NEED to scout zerg as thuroughly as one would need to scout toss. scouting 3gate or 4gate require vastly different responses, but scouting a roach warren doesn't require any change in strategy. the only time this does not hold true is in the case of an all-in, in which case you either see the large unit count by ANY unit sent at the zerg base, or your early probe sees things going down quickly (roach warrens are scoutable if they're roach rushing you) or no expo. if you don't see a hatch by 20 the zerg is rushing you. period. if you don't see a nexus by 30 you have no idea what the toss is doing.
as for always build cannons? the last time i saw a 1 base protoss build cannons was when they got cannon rushed. 3 gate expo doesn't even need cannons. it is not a requisite part of standard, safe toss play.
being 1 base ahead compensates for the manner in which zerg operates (drones from larva), it doesn't put them ahead. 3 FULLY SATURATED bases above 2 puts zerg ahead, but if you let zerg get to 90 drones you're doing something wrong.
spines relocating does not make up for their early game cost in drones.
if you play 100% safe every game you lose to players who take risks that you don't catch. if you play 100% safe against a 16 nexus, you can either expo again (not "safe") or all-in (not "safe") or lose in 5-10 minutes ("safe").
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EPT
