EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 994
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Scrubington
Canada475 Posts
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hopoo
37 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:23 branflakes14 wrote: What's amusing about Idra is that top Brood War players and coaches have said perfect Terran is unbeatable, yet he considered Terran underpowered. I wish he would stop touting his opinions as fact, people take him seriously. So many people in one SotG episode though! He said it was the hardest race to play, not the weakest Huge difference | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:24 Yaotzin wrote: BW Hydras would be absurdly imba. Toss would be 100% forced to turtle hard until collossus, letting Zerg take the map and drone like mad for ages. Zerg HAS to be under threat early game. They cannot be allowed to do nothing but drone or they are unbeatable. Then BW hydras should have their DPS reduced until they are on-par with gateway armies and M&M. I'd figure a 75/25, 80HP, 8-9 damage unit would be about right. We NEED a t1.5 ranged unit. That's bottom line. | ||
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
THANK YOU for doing such an awesome weekly show  | ||
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XaCez
Sweden6991 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:43 Scrubington wrote: Anybody going to Photoshop an Idra Vs. Day[9] argument picture ? http://i.imgur.com/3HyQB.jpg Courtesy of Reddit On-topic, I have to agree with those who've said that IdrA didn't prove anything and Day[9] thinking that there's more to it. | ||
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millardkillmore
United States12 Posts
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Furycrab
Canada456 Posts
On May 05 2011 21:21 Synk wrote: I was really sad that Idra just discredited his own games in the finals of the IPL, I really thought he showed some very cool strats. His Shakuras game was very innovative and I was blown away at just how much stuff he had and how many times he was able to take advantage of the drop play. It's too bad they weren't able to talk about these games more in the last SotG but, if the player himself can't even acknowledge that the games were good it makes it hard I guess. He believes that his strats are either a some form of coinflip (even if it's a heavily weighted coinflip or that his opponent need to coinflip to beat him) and or that his opponents are terrible when he wins. On the masters EG drama... I can't help but not like Tyler stance on it. I think he got so caught up with how Liquid was going to be accomodating the NA teams for this to work that he didn't realize how it would be unfair at best, or broken at worst for both teams. Tyler if you are reading this... Just run scenarios. Say EG plays Liquid. Coinflip, NA server first. What's stopping Liquid from just fielding, Tyler, TLO or even Nazgul. It's a fair match obviously if they are fielded, but then when the next round starts if a player in Korea is fielded the NA team got zero compensation in the previous match for having to play a game on the Korean server. Now if you add extra rules to say force swapping in between the games (2 NA players playing on the KR server would be hilariously dumb) or to stop Liquid from fielding NA or EU players on the NA server games then you end up with just a huge clusterfuck. The 2v2 becomes an even bigger mess... The ONLY way the games and rules can be set so that both teams have equal opportunity is if the team fielding KR server players only plays it's KR players or it's NA/EU players. Which for Team Liquid would be just as terrible. However this is also why this solution works for individual leagues and fails so badly for a team league. The bottom line is almost regardless of how you run the games or set the rules, there will be an advantage set to the player who can field KR players OR the team fielding Korean players won't be able to field it's NA players. So no I don't think Colby was being deceptive in his statement if this was the solution proposed he wasn't fully disclosing. P.S: I'm aware that playing all games on NA server isn't that much better. I also apologize to those who didn't want to talk about this, but this is a forum afterall. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
btw anyone else thinks it seems like zvt is ridicolously broken in zerg favor after the patch? not that i know if it is really imbalanced, but for me it seems like every terran needs to end the game before BLs or even infestors, because there is no way for terran against BL/Infestor, at least on equal skill? | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:49 Sueco wrote: Then BW hydras should have their DPS reduced until they are on-par with gateway armies and M&M. I'd figure a 75/25, 80HP, 8-9 damage unit would be about right. We NEED a t1.5 ranged unit. That's bottom line. You have one, it's called the roach. Yes it has pretty mediocre range, but it's still ranged. What would this hatch-hydra offer that the roach does not? And just as importantly, what would the roach offer that this hydra does not? | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:21 Sueco wrote: + Show Spoiler + As a Zerg player I partially agree with Idra, but: Zerg scouting isn't that inferior if you compare it objectively. True, a wall-in and stalkers/marines patrolling the walls will easily deny scouting, but look at the situation for the other races at the 8 min mark. Once zerglings are out, zerg players can deny scouting workers with relative ease. Observers are excellent scouts but their tech level puts them on par with overlord speed or overseers. Terrans have the allmighty scan but it at least has some cost in the form of lost income, and one scan doesn't really reveal everything. Point is, all races have imperfect scouting. In my opinion, that is as it should be. Perfect scouting would mean a lot of boring macro games. Part of the game is the hiding of information and the use of surprise through the fog of war. So, scouting is where it should be in this game. Here's where Idra hits it head on: Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive. While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose. Watch pro replays, most of the time Zerg has map control for the first 10 minutes of the game. Zerglings on towers, zerglings near the ramp, one or two overlords hanging outside the base. Watch the T PoV. Very little information aside from wether there is an expansion or not, and whether one or two tech buildings are present. They are never very worried about their lack of information because they know most kind of agressions Z can put out are easily handled with a bunker or two or a forcefield. They then go for a blind timing attack and usually either break even, come out ahead or outright win because Z needs to know exactly whats coming in order to defend it at all. --------------------------- What's the solution? Well, here we go into more speculative territory. My take is: Zerg is the only race that lacks a proper ranged attacker in their basic T1-1.5 lineup. This is the key reason Zerg lacks safe builds and early agression options. A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against. B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose. C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression. Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS and a large size, meaning they still have trouble dealing with defensive buildings/terrain and that they lose a firefight with units that can reach better ranged power multipliers, such as a marines. And of course, they can't hit air. I'm sorry to repeat a tired old Zerg mantra, but it's true: BW Hydras please. First of all let me congratulate you on your nickname because calling yourself sueco and being a swede is awesome ;D (sueco is swedish in portuguese) your post is really good and brings out some excelent post. I guess the speed overlords without the lair and faster spines would balance the inicial stage of the game for zergs! BTW everyone should watch nestea vs anypro because this series will open some eyes!! if you can't watch check out the battle report in here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219513 | ||
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ImHuko
United States996 Posts
I did feel bad for Day9 after the argument, he kinda got into something he didn't want and you could tell it messed up up for the rest of the show, had his little sad puppy dog look on. It seems that non-zerg players really don't understand how some games turn out unless you literally play thousands of games with them. You just can't scout early game, so the wide variety of strategies like Idra said, can just flat out kill you. We can't really wall off, we can't forcefield, so when something catches us by surprise, there is a huge chance you just completely lose, compared to maybe taking a little damage but being able to recover when there is forcefield/wallins involved. | ||
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Moreboom
Australia14 Posts
There's no point in engaging in an arguement with someone who will not change their view, no matter what gets discussed. Also - <3 SOTG. iTunes throws it on my iPod and it keeps me entertained for my morning commute. Then I have to pause it and have something to look forward to for the afternoon commute home. I kind of wish their was more SC content in podcast form like this. | ||
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chrusher97
Canada811 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:45 hopoo wrote: He said it was the hardest race to play, not the weakest Huge difference There was a huge pause when he answered that question, he wanted to say it but he couldn't articulate it well enough to not be met with cognitive dissonance from everyone else. So he falls back to the next best thing--dismissing all integrity of the race by saying it is easier to play. Hell, in his interview with Artosis after his last competitive Starcraft 1 match, his reason for losing against his Protoss opponent was because he was Protoss. That was no more than a year ago. It seems that non-zerg players really don't understand how some games turn out unless you literally play thousands of games with them. You just can't scout early game, so the wide variety of strategies like Idra said, can just flat out kill you. We can't really wall off, we can't forcefield, so when something catches us by surprise, there is a huge chance you just completely lose, compared to maybe taking a little damage but being able to recover when there is forcefield/wallins involved. Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Protoss cannot scout early game. After the moment the scouting Probe goes down until the moment they get an Observer/Hallucination (6:30-7mins into the game), they are playing completely and totally blind. What about Terran? What is he supposed to do against a Protoss who hides his buildings? Play *hope I can see with these four scans* Poker? Half the time it can even be too late, against fast cloaked banshees on big maps, Blink Stalkers, Phoenixes, Voidray all-ins, your observer gets to your opponent about the same time your opponent reveals the tech. Hell, even DT rushes on big maps can get to your base before your observer can spot the shrine. Roach/Ling all-ins, 4gate, Proxy Gates, Cannon Rushes, SCV all-ins all come long before you have access to any reasonable scouting, Protoss have the exact same information to work with as Zerg and in most cases, until that hallucinate is done, almost no information. Wide variety of strats can out right kill Protoss too. Kiwi vs Idra on ST for example, all it took was 2seconds for Kiwikaki to be to a situation where he was 100% dead. A slightly off forcefield was what it took to get completely overrun by a ling/roach all-in. Do you think that is any better? Forcefield isn't the cherry on the top, it is apart of the foundation, you need it to survive. Wall-ins don't somehow save you in pinch situations. For example, walling against Terran is worse for Protoss than not walling in, you are more likely to lose the game if you do that. And by the same token, if Terran walls in and Protoss goes Voidrays, then he is most likely screwed too, save some great crisis management. The reason Terran and Protoss wall-in vs Zerg is because they can't handle them if they don't. I'd LOVE to see anyone even try play PvZ without walling in. It is incredibly sad that this of all things is actually considered an issue, it has been like this since the start of the beta and is considered how you are supposed to survive against Zerg. Even then, what good what a Zerg wall-in do? Your only ranged unit till Lair has 4range, your melee units perform x10 better than being able to get a surround. You are just listing off things other races can do and saying that is why Zerg is doing poorly, because you don't have what they have, it is so mind numbing to read, I seriously hope you are trolling. | ||
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sereniity
Sweden1159 Posts
It's Colbis job to state the fact, that Teamliquid didn't accept the invite It's up to Teamliquid wether or not they want to publicly announce why they turned down the invite. | ||
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Marzuki
United States30 Posts
That being said, it is my experience that P is an easier race to play than Z simply because it is a more straightforward style of play. This is why you are seeing more P progamers receiving recognition, as it is a more accessible race than Z. | ||
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damod
1106 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:59 Yaotzin wrote: You have one, it's called the roach. Yes it has pretty mediocre range, but it's still ranged. What would this hatch-hydra offer that the roach does not? And just as importantly, what would the roach offer that this hydra does not? what would a 75/25 hatch-hydra offers that the roach does not ? maybe a fast, cheap and mass-able anti-air defense in the early game wich zerg really lacks right now ? maybe a little more diversity to zerg opening strategies ? maybe a higher dps and higher range unit than the roach ? (roach 4 range 8 DPS, hydra 5 range 14 DPS) you could reply to me and say we have the queen, but it takes 50 second per hatch to create, and cost 150 minerals each. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:59 Yaotzin wrote: You have one, it's called the roach. Yes it has pretty mediocre range, but it's still ranged. What would this hatch-hydra offer that the roach does not? And just as importantly, what would the roach offer that this hydra does not? Anti Air - cost effective in smaller numbers. RANGE - SPEEDY - NOT ARMORED. Can become a lurker at lair tech. Roach is roach. Both cost, combat and supply ineffective. Durable yes, but that is all it is. at its basic form it is a marauder with 4 range with no conc shell nor stim. I get that blizzard wished to design zerg differently in sc2, but in my eyes and the eyes of many others they failed. Upgrades are too costly and come too slow, units hatch to slowly to be reactionary and the zergling is so weak that it has to morph for 30 seconds to become a threat. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 23:42 damod wrote: what would a 75/25 hatch-hydra offers that the roach does not ? maybe a fast, cheap and mass-able anti-air defense in the early game wich zerg really lacks right now ? maybe a little more diversity to zerg opening strategies ? maybe a higher dps and higher range unit than the roach ? (roach 4 range 8 DPS, hydra 5 range 14 DPS) you could reply to me and say we have the queen, but it takes 50 second per hatch to create, and cost 150 minerals each. Er yeah all that would be nice. I'd like a pony and a stalker that doesn't melt to marauders, but we can't have everything we want. Why does Zerg need this stuff? What specific strategies kill them "unfairly", that this would prevent? Anti Air - cost effective in smaller numbers. RANGE - SPEEDY - NOT ARMORED. Can become a lurker at lair tech. Well roaches are cost effective in smaller numbers, and are pretty speedy. hatch-hydras would kill any air play anyone wants to do which isn't exactly good for the game, so I don't think Zerg should get that. Not like Zergs die to air play often anyways. Why is armored a big deal? I wasn't aware marauders were killing Zergs or something? Roach is roach. Both cost, combat and supply ineffective. Durable yes, but that is all it is. at its basic form it is a marauder with 4 range with no conc shell nor stim. Cost and combat ineffective...............yeah no point talking to you then. Go watch Sheth or something, get a clue. | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:59 Yaotzin wrote: You have one, it's called the roach. Yes it has pretty mediocre range, but it's still ranged. What would this hatch-hydra offer that the roach does not? And just as importantly, what would the roach offer that this hydra does not? I already went through this in my original post, but in case you missed it: + Show Spoiler + A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against. B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose. C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression. Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS, low speed and a large size, meaning they still have trouble dealing with defensive buildings/terrain and that they lose a firefight with units that can reach better ranged power multipliers, such as a marines. And of course, they can't hit air. | ||
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