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On May 06 2011 01:19 Sueco wrote:Show nested quote +Again, because you didn't actually address it. Why does Zerg NEED this hydra? What fatal weakness do they have that having this hydra would solve?
Even if you can somehow prevent it stealing the roach's role, and you can somehow balance it, I still don't see any actual reason to bother at all. Why do they need it? IdrA's complaints about Zerg are the usual ones, and this doesn't address them at all. That's what my original post was about. If that doesn't explain it for you, I give up. Plenty of other people got the point. + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 22:21 Sueco wrote:
As a Zerg player I partially agree with Idra, but:
Zerg scouting isn't that inferior if you compare it objectively. True, a wall-in and stalkers/marines patrolling the walls will easily deny scouting, but look at the situation for the other races at the 8 min mark. Once zerglings are out, zerg players can deny scouting workers with relative ease. Observers are excellent scouts but their tech level puts them on par with overlord speed or overseers. Terrans have the allmighty scan but it at least has some cost in the form of lost income, and one scan doesn't really reveal everything.
Point is, all races have imperfect scouting. In my opinion, that is as it should be. Perfect scouting would mean a lot of boring macro games. Part of the game is the hiding of information and the use of surprise through the fog of war. So, scouting is where it should be in this game.
Here's where Idra hits it head on:
Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive.
While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose.
Watch pro replays, most of the time Zerg has map control for the first 10 minutes of the game. Zerglings on towers, zerglings near the ramp, one or two overlords hanging outside the base. Watch the T PoV. Very little information aside from wether there is an expansion or not, and whether one or two tech buildings are present. They are never very worried about their lack of information because they know most kind of agressions Z can put out are easily handled with a bunker or two or a forcefield. They then go for a blind timing attack and usually either break even, come out ahead or outright win because Z needs to know exactly whats coming in order to defend it at all.
---------------------------
What's the solution? Well, here we go into more speculative territory. My take is:
Zerg is the only race that lacks a proper ranged attacker in their basic T1-1.5 lineup.
This is the key reason Zerg lacks safe builds and early agression options.
A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against.
B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose.
C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression.
Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS and a large size, meaning they still have trouble dealing with defensive buildings/terrain and that they lose a firefight with units that can reach better ranged power multipliers, such as a marines. And of course, they can't hit air.
I'm sorry to repeat a tired old Zerg mantra, but it's true:
BW Hydras please.
Admittedly I missed this line which sums up why that post is wrong
Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive.
While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose.
Zerg's problem - if they have one - is reacting in time to produce the required units. It is NOT a problem with the strength of said units. This is why IdrA talked about the time it takes spines to build. He is talking about Zerg's reaction time to a previously unknown threat.
If one agrees with his premise then his two methods of dealing with this are correct: Better scouting to earlier identify the threat, or a better defence in some way (faster spines as he said) to deal with a threat you didn't see coming.
So yeah, you really don't need hydras. In fact the only way hydras could solve this problem at all, is if they were so overpowered they could crush any threat at all. If they were balanced they would face the same problem: "Do I make hydras instead of drones for a threat I can't see?"
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On May 06 2011 01:20 N3rV[Green] wrote:
The overall feeling I keep getting out of zerg players is that they feel that they deserve to be able to play a single game plan and never lose.
That's just absurd. No build is "safe vs everything" It's simply untrue.
Please tell me the magic protoss build that allows me to not scout until hallucination, and NEVER LOSE A GAME to some random un-scouted all-in/weird play. Please, tell me. Cause I sure as hell haven't found one. Zerg early game production is straight up silly, and yet all zergs can think of right now is "well I need to make drones, duh" instead of making a round of speedlings, and causing havoc around the map, and using the information you gain from them to plan out your next moves.
Also, Nestea roflstomped Anypro by playing well. Simple as that.
Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken.
who says zerg NEVER should loose a game, thats stupid, and 3 gate expand vs zerg is one of the safest builds out there compared to BS zerg has, in most cases we saw a player loosing to roach / ling attack was bad building placement / FFs, its up to the protoss to scew FF and zerg cant do squat if they are properly placed no micro will help u there.
u DONT need detection before lair
u DONT need to worry about air attack before lair
only attack can come from ground from t1, 1.5 units which can be denied with FFs
how is that NOT safe?!
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No you did not understood what IdrA's said.
IdrA said that, in a strategy game, you need at least one of 2 things:
1) full map knowledge, so that you can instantly react to everything your opponent do
I'm sorry but that is the biggest bullshit I've heard in a while, so you basically want maphack? -.-
Just make spinecrawlers build faster and zergs are happy, it's not like protoss and terran would really care about that change anyway
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it's not like protoss and terran would really care about that change anyway
LOL ?
It might change all the early timings pushes...
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 05 2011 21:35 Maliris wrote:
Yep I didn't really like this episode either. Everyone was way too hostile and really long boring imbalance talks, plus incontrol bullying tyler using classic debate team social manipulation, the kind of thing a salesman uses when going for the hard sell. Pretty sad... lost all my respect for incontrol.
I wish on SOTG they would discuss the scene and emergent strategies more rather than eSports politics like EG masters cup (which was a totally boring discussion too, good only for the drama if you care about that)
Going to have to agree here. Show has potential and drama is interesting at times, but this was just a tad sad T_T. Especially when incontrol started shouting. It was simply exaggerated debating instead of actually talking and genuinely interacting from his part. Tyler actually managing to stay calm deserves props.
Such a big fuss over nothing at all >_<
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Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken.
This is the most bs i ever read
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On May 06 2011 01:11 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 00:57 Madkipz wrote:
the point he wants to make is that protoss and terran have safe builds and good units that make this period ok.
Unless we screw up and get too greedy and die. Or we play too safe and found out they were greedy, and die. So kinda like Zerg then. Show nested quote +
Zerg does not have safe builds nor are their units any good the first 6 minutes in the game.
In every ZvX the zerg is walking a thin line between army and drones while terran and protoss get to chill and make sentries / marines and do whatever they want.
Their units aren't good....sigh. Zerg units are > gateway units. The only time you can kill them with gateway units is if you catch them by surprise. IdrA's complaint is basically that he can be caught off guard and not be able to do anything about that, not that Zerg units are shit. He wants the scouting so he doesn't get caught off guard. Zerg is unusually vulnerable to being caught off guard because of the larva mechanic, not because their units are bad (they aren't) or whatever.
Yes that's basically the problem. Scouting is the issue, not the units themselves. Zerg needs that scouting information more than the other races because scouting is so tied to zerg macro.
Lowering spinecrawler time or something like that isn't the answer. Early game scouting is the problem that IdrA outlined. There is no way to play zerg in the early game without a coinflip of some sort and that is the issue.
Unlike Terran and Protoss which have better defenses, Zerg cannot do some sort of middle-ground where our macro is so-so and our defense is so-so. You will lose instantly to all-ins and you will be at a disadvantage otherwise. We have to be able to react extremely, and without proper scouting we just have to guess.
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On May 06 2011 01:20 N3rV[Green] wrote:
The overall feeling I keep getting out of zerg players is that they feel that they deserve to be able to play a single game plan and never lose.
That's just absurd. No build is "safe vs everything" It's simply untrue.
Please tell me the magic protoss build that allows me to not scout until hallucination, and NEVER LOSE A GAME to some random un-scouted all-in/weird play. Please, tell me. Cause I sure as hell haven't found one. Zerg early game production is straight up silly, and yet all zergs can think of right now is "well I need to make drones, duh" instead of making a round of speedlings, and causing havoc around the map, and using the information you gain from them to plan out your next moves.
Also, Nestea roflstomped Anypro by playing well. Simple as that.
Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken.
3 Gate Expo, heard of it bro?
LOL @ a round of speedlings causing havoc around the map. Any competent protoss player will shut down speedling harass with forcefields.
Yes Nestea played well but Anypro played his predictable greedy FE style every game he lost and completely dominated the one game he played a safe opener. Nestea showcased some builds that he must have developed specifically for Anypro knowing the greedy as hell FE stargate openers he favors. You could even argue that Anypro could have held off that crawler rush if he had simply pulled some probes.
Nestea didn't redefine ZvP or anything close to that. He simply had special builds to punish a very very greedy player.
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On May 06 2011 01:34 DoubleReed wrote:
Yes that's basically the problem. Scouting is the issue, not the units themselves. Zerg needs that scouting information more than the other races because scouting is so tied to zerg macro.
Well I certainly agree this is a difficulty of Zerg, but I'm not at all convinced it's actually broken. Their mechanic forces them to tread a very thin line at the competitive level (at lower levels you can be safer and just suck up the economic cost), but that doesn't mean the wire isn't still there. Just really hard to find.
Unlike Terran and Protoss which have better defenses, Zerg cannot do some sort of middle-ground where our macro is so-so and our defense is so-so. You will lose instantly to all-ins and you will be at a disadvantage otherwise. We have to be able to react extremely, and without scouting we just have to guess.
Well, you can, and you do. Most Zerg openers make a pool before hatch. It's not the most economically efficient way, but it's a relatively small sacrifice and it stops a lot of nonsense like cannon rushes. The trick is to find out how to make that pool as late as you can, how to make as few zerglings as you can, when to store larvae until you confirm something etc etc. It's really, really hard. I'm not surprised it kills Zergs left and right. But that doesn't make it broken.
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Am I the only one that noticed during the latest SotG cast that Idra/Machine and Tasteless were chatting to eachother through msn or something? It was pretty obvious that they were, especially during the long-winded discussions with Tyler and InControl because they were smirking then typing away > I wonder what it was about
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On May 06 2011 01:28 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:19 Sueco wrote:Again, because you didn't actually address it. Why does Zerg NEED this hydra? What fatal weakness do they have that having this hydra would solve?
Even if you can somehow prevent it stealing the roach's role, and you can somehow balance it, I still don't see any actual reason to bother at all. Why do they need it? IdrA's complaints about Zerg are the usual ones, and this doesn't address them at all. That's what my original post was about. If that doesn't explain it for you, I give up. Plenty of other people got the point. + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 22:21 Sueco wrote:
As a Zerg player I partially agree with Idra, but:
Zerg scouting isn't that inferior if you compare it objectively. True, a wall-in and stalkers/marines patrolling the walls will easily deny scouting, but look at the situation for the other races at the 8 min mark. Once zerglings are out, zerg players can deny scouting workers with relative ease. Observers are excellent scouts but their tech level puts them on par with overlord speed or overseers. Terrans have the allmighty scan but it at least has some cost in the form of lost income, and one scan doesn't really reveal everything.
Point is, all races have imperfect scouting. In my opinion, that is as it should be. Perfect scouting would mean a lot of boring macro games. Part of the game is the hiding of information and the use of surprise through the fog of war. So, scouting is where it should be in this game.
Here's where Idra hits it head on:
Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive.
While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose.
Watch pro replays, most of the time Zerg has map control for the first 10 minutes of the game. Zerglings on towers, zerglings near the ramp, one or two overlords hanging outside the base. Watch the T PoV. Very little information aside from wether there is an expansion or not, and whether one or two tech buildings are present. They are never very worried about their lack of information because they know most kind of agressions Z can put out are easily handled with a bunker or two or a forcefield. They then go for a blind timing attack and usually either break even, come out ahead or outright win because Z needs to know exactly whats coming in order to defend it at all.
---------------------------
What's the solution? Well, here we go into more speculative territory. My take is:
Zerg is the only race that lacks a proper ranged attacker in their basic T1-1.5 lineup.
This is the key reason Zerg lacks safe builds and early agression options.
A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against.
B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose.
C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression.
Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS and a large size, meaning they still have trouble dealing with defensive buildings/terrain and that they lose a firefight with units that can reach better ranged power multipliers, such as a marines. And of course, they can't hit air.
I'm sorry to repeat a tired old Zerg mantra, but it's true:
BW Hydras please. Admittedly I missed this line which sums up why that post is wrong Show nested quote +
Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive.
While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose.
Zerg's problem - if they have one - is reacting in time to produce the required units. It is NOT a problem with the strength of said units. This is why IdrA talked about the time it takes spines to build. He is talking about Zerg's reaction time to a previously unknown threat.If one agrees with his premise then his two methods of dealing with this are correct: Better scouting to earlier identify the threat, or a better defence in some way (faster spines as he said) to deal with a threat you didn't see coming. So yeah, you really don't need hydras. In fact the only way hydras could solve this problem at all, is if they were so overpowered they could crush any threat at all. If they were balanced they would face the same problem: "Do I make hydras instead of drones for a threat I can't see?"
You are wrong, he did not said there was no pb with zerg units. He said that to defend, he need to make a lot of units because there is no cost efficient way to defend and SINCE ZERG UNITS sucks (which is fair considering larva mechanics) all the units you build are useless to counter attack because of low range / melee that can't do anything against wall in.
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On May 06 2011 01:34 Leavzou wrote:This is the most bs i ever read
But he is right. The most Zerg players don't know the metagame of PvZ (not ZvP) and this way they just don't understand why they lose.
And Idra is the main problem about that, because he keeps complaining without giving a drop of his actual game knowledge.
Just as an example take the "Zerg needs to react to everything"-attitude.
This attitude is false.
The Protoss is the player who reacts to the Zerg. Take VR/Colossus. It hardcounters Roach/Hydra/Currupter, but it dies pretty easy to Infestor Ultralisk Ling.
The most Zergs don't get that they force the Protoss player to build a certain army composition. They keep on building their own army composition BLIND. While Protoss watches: "Roaches ... hmm, let me add some Immortals ... oh fuck he is doing mass Ling Infestor, need fast Archons ..."
And Zergs build their army, and then watch their army die.
Or the "we can't scout attitude"
You didn't see the old discussions about PvT. I don't want to elaborate that, but it pretty much ended that we had to go Robotics every time, or we take a huge risk. There are still BOs who counter Robo Builds pretty good, but it is the safest overall. But Zergs don't want to take risks (because Idra doesn't want to). At least now he does, but he still says he wants to play another game.
If he doesn't like this part of game design, which actually is called strategy and tactics, he should leave the game alone.
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The things discussed were probably worth discussing. But for the sotg members and people discussing in the thread, remember "if you can chill, chill."
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On May 06 2011 01:32 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 21:35 Maliris wrote:
Yep I didn't really like this episode either. Everyone was way too hostile and really long boring imbalance talks, plus incontrol bullying tyler using classic debate team social manipulation, the kind of thing a salesman uses when going for the hard sell. Pretty sad... lost all my respect for incontrol.
I wish on SOTG they would discuss the scene and emergent strategies more rather than eSports politics like EG masters cup (which was a totally boring discussion too, good only for the drama if you care about that) Going to have to agree here. Show has potential and drama is interesting at times, but this was just a tad sad T_T. Especially when incontrol started shouting. It was simply exaggerated debating instead of actually talking and genuinely interacting from his part. Tyler actually managing to stay calm deserves props. Such a big fuss over nothing at all >_<
The part that annoyed me the most is when Inc started talking about if Tyler even liked his sponsor's products, which at that point felt like more so of a personal attack than debating the topic at hand. Tyler, being the chilltoss, handled it well and got points in my book.
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On May 06 2011 01:46 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:34 Leavzou wrote:Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken. This is the most bs i ever read But he is right. The most Zerg players don't know the metagame of PvZ (not ZvP) and this way they just don't understand why they lose. And Idra is the main problem about that, because he keeps complaining without giving a drop of his actual game knowledge. Just as an example take the "Zerg needs to react to everything"-attitude. This attitude is false. The Protoss is the player who reacts to the Zerg. Take VR/Colossus. It hardcounters Roach/Hydra/Currupter, but it dies pretty easy to Infestor Ultralisk Ling. The most Zergs don't get that they force the Protoss player to build a certain army composition. They keep on building their own army composition BLIND. While Protoss watches: "Roaches ... hmm, let me add some Immortals ... oh fuck he is doing mass Ling Infestor, need fast Archons ..." And Zergs build their army, and then watch their army die. Or the "we can't scout attitude" You didn't see the old discussions about PvT. I don't want to elaborate that, but it pretty much ended that we had to go Robotics every time, or we take a huge risk. There are still BOs who counter Robo Builds pretty good, but it is the safest overall. But Zergs don't want to take risks (because Idra doesn't want to). At least now he does, but he still says he wants to play another game. If he doesn't like this part of game design, which actually is called strategy and tactics, he should leave the game alone.
There is reason why most people don't go ultra against void colo, because you die before they pop out, that's all.
Like mondragon, rushing with roach against void ray, would you tell him to make more ultra ? lol
You are the one who don't know anything about ZvP imo.
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To the people claiming the famed "3 gate expo, ez pz safe imba"....
Have you ever played protoss your self? Have you ever gotten STOMPED by a zerg that read the 3 gate, and prepared the roach/ling timing off of more drones than the 3 gate expand has probes, while giving the opportunity to the zerg (if he doesn't win outright vs the pitiful 5-7 sentry 2 stalker 1-3 zealot army) to takea third after the attack.
Ya sure, 3 gate expand is safe vs a zerg that makes drones till 15 minutes in......
Seriously zerg players, stop playing zerg, and go play T or P for a while.
Put yourself in their shoes.
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On May 06 2011 01:45 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 06 2011 01:19 Sueco wrote:Again, because you didn't actually address it. Why does Zerg NEED this hydra? What fatal weakness do they have that having this hydra would solve?
Even if you can somehow prevent it stealing the roach's role, and you can somehow balance it, I still don't see any actual reason to bother at all. Why do they need it? IdrA's complaints about Zerg are the usual ones, and this doesn't address them at all. That's what my original post was about. If that doesn't explain it for you, I give up. Plenty of other people got the point. + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 22:21 Sueco wrote:
As a Zerg player I partially agree with Idra, but:
Zerg scouting isn't that inferior if you compare it objectively. True, a wall-in and stalkers/marines patrolling the walls will easily deny scouting, but look at the situation for the other races at the 8 min mark. Once zerglings are out, zerg players can deny scouting workers with relative ease. Observers are excellent scouts but their tech level puts them on par with overlord speed or overseers. Terrans have the allmighty scan but it at least has some cost in the form of lost income, and one scan doesn't really reveal everything.
Point is, all races have imperfect scouting. In my opinion, that is as it should be. Perfect scouting would mean a lot of boring macro games. Part of the game is the hiding of information and the use of surprise through the fog of war. So, scouting is where it should be in this game.
Here's where Idra hits it head on:
Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive.
While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose.
Watch pro replays, most of the time Zerg has map control for the first 10 minutes of the game. Zerglings on towers, zerglings near the ramp, one or two overlords hanging outside the base. Watch the T PoV. Very little information aside from wether there is an expansion or not, and whether one or two tech buildings are present. They are never very worried about their lack of information because they know most kind of agressions Z can put out are easily handled with a bunker or two or a forcefield. They then go for a blind timing attack and usually either break even, come out ahead or outright win because Z needs to know exactly whats coming in order to defend it at all.
---------------------------
What's the solution? Well, here we go into more speculative territory. My take is:
Zerg is the only race that lacks a proper ranged attacker in their basic T1-1.5 lineup.
This is the key reason Zerg lacks safe builds and early agression options.
A: Ranged attackers are good at early agression becuase they handle chokes and wall-offs, and therefore can pierce base defenses that short-range units are ineffective against.
B: Ranged attackers can quickly reach a power multiplier effect when their damage output starts to grow in relation to the surface area they expose.
C: Ranged attackers offer an effective way to react to fast air that your opponent has managed to hide, and can handle defensive air units when part of early agression.
Roaches aren't really that unit. They combine short range with low DPS and a large size, meaning they still have trouble dealing with defensive buildings/terrain and that they lose a firefight with units that can reach better ranged power multipliers, such as a marines. And of course, they can't hit air.
I'm sorry to repeat a tired old Zerg mantra, but it's true:
BW Hydras please. Admittedly I missed this line which sums up why that post is wrong
Zerg has such ineffective T1 choices that you NEED perfect scouting in order to survive.
While other races can handle themselves with imperfect information, Zerg may outright lose.
Zerg's problem - if they have one - is reacting in time to produce the required units. It is NOT a problem with the strength of said units. This is why IdrA talked about the time it takes spines to build. He is talking about Zerg's reaction time to a previously unknown threat.If one agrees with his premise then his two methods of dealing with this are correct: Better scouting to earlier identify the threat, or a better defence in some way (faster spines as he said) to deal with a threat you didn't see coming. So yeah, you really don't need hydras. In fact the only way hydras could solve this problem at all, is if they were so overpowered they could crush any threat at all. If they were balanced they would face the same problem: "Do I make hydras instead of drones for a threat I can't see?" You are wrong, he did not said there was no pb with zerg units. He said that to defend, he need to make a lot of units because there is no cost efficient way to defend and SINCE ZERG UNITS sucks (which is fair considering larva mechanics) all the units you build are useless to counter attack because of low range / melee that can't do anything against wall in.
Then he's just wrong.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 06 2011 01:48 kethers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:32 Beyonder wrote:On May 05 2011 21:35 Maliris wrote:
Yep I didn't really like this episode either. Everyone was way too hostile and really long boring imbalance talks, plus incontrol bullying tyler using classic debate team social manipulation, the kind of thing a salesman uses when going for the hard sell. Pretty sad... lost all my respect for incontrol.
I wish on SOTG they would discuss the scene and emergent strategies more rather than eSports politics like EG masters cup (which was a totally boring discussion too, good only for the drama if you care about that) Going to have to agree here. Show has potential and drama is interesting at times, but this was just a tad sad T_T. Especially when incontrol started shouting. It was simply exaggerated debating instead of actually talking and genuinely interacting from his part. Tyler actually managing to stay calm deserves props. Such a big fuss over nothing at all >_< The part that annoyed me the most is when Inc started talking about if Tyler even liked his sponsor's products, which at that point felt like more so of a personal attack than debating the topic at hand. Tyler, being the chilltoss, handled it well and got points in my book.
Yeah, agree. Oh well.
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On May 06 2011 01:51 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:46 gnutz wrote:On May 06 2011 01:34 Leavzou wrote:Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken. This is the most bs i ever read But he is right. The most Zerg players don't know the metagame of PvZ (not ZvP) and this way they just don't understand why they lose. And Idra is the main problem about that, because he keeps complaining without giving a drop of his actual game knowledge. Just as an example take the "Zerg needs to react to everything"-attitude. This attitude is false. The Protoss is the player who reacts to the Zerg. Take VR/Colossus. It hardcounters Roach/Hydra/Currupter, but it dies pretty easy to Infestor Ultralisk Ling. The most Zergs don't get that they force the Protoss player to build a certain army composition. They keep on building their own army composition BLIND. While Protoss watches: "Roaches ... hmm, let me add some Immortals ... oh fuck he is doing mass Ling Infestor, need fast Archons ..." And Zergs build their army, and then watch their army die. Or the "we can't scout attitude" You didn't see the old discussions about PvT. I don't want to elaborate that, but it pretty much ended that we had to go Robotics every time, or we take a huge risk. There are still BOs who counter Robo Builds pretty good, but it is the safest overall. But Zergs don't want to take risks (because Idra doesn't want to). At least now he does, but he still says he wants to play another game. If he doesn't like this part of game design, which actually is called strategy and tactics, he should leave the game alone. There is reason why most people don't go ultra against void colo, because you die before they pop out, that's all. Like mondragon, rushing with roach against void ray, would you tell him to make more ultra ? lol You are the one who don't know anything about ZvP imo.
I did not say a particular strategy, so you can't show me the mistakes in details of the strategy.
But just for you: If you go normal VR/Colossus, there is no timing window "You die before they pop out", because you can attack the first time at like 180 supply. I hope you learned something, but i doubt you will believe me. I don't care. There are enough Zergs who actually can play and get Ultras out in time, one less makes no difference.
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On May 06 2011 01:46 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:34 Leavzou wrote:Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken. This is the most bs i ever read But he is right. The most Zerg players don't know the metagame of PvZ (not ZvP) and this way they just don't understand why they lose. And Idra is the main problem about that, because he keeps complaining without giving a drop of his actual game knowledge. Just as an example take the "Zerg needs to react to everything"-attitude. This attitude is false. The Protoss is the player who reacts to the Zerg. Take VR/Colossus. It hardcounters Roach/Hydra/Currupter, but it dies pretty easy to Infestor Ultralisk Ling. The most Zergs don't get that they force the Protoss player to build a certain army composition. They keep on building their own army composition BLIND. While Protoss watches: "Roaches ... hmm, let me add some Immortals ... oh fuck he is doing mass Ling Infestor, need fast Archons ..." And Zergs build their army, and then watch their army die. Or the "we can't scout attitude" You didn't see the old discussions about PvT. I don't want to elaborate that, but it pretty much ended that we had to go Robotics every time, or we take a huge risk. There are still BOs who counter Robo Builds pretty good, but it is the safest overall. But Zergs don't want to take risks (because Idra doesn't want to). At least now he does, but he still says he wants to play another game. If he doesn't like this part of game design, which actually is called strategy and tactics, he should leave the game alone.
this attitude that zerg players are stupid and cannot comprehend the PvZ metagame is just wrong and insulting. Let me tell you what a zerg NEEDs to to in first 6-7 minutes of the game and compare it to the toss counter part.
Zerg needs to check front with lings and have info on buildings / units in front
Zerg needs to check cronoboosts on cybercore / count if any
zerg need to scout map for hidden probes / tech
zerg needs send in an Overlord to scout buildings / crono on nexus (if possible, cross positions, bigger maps, stalker on edge makes it impossible some time)
Zerg needs to constantly sent a unit (usually a ling) after an expo is placed for possbile trickery / cancel and count units and unit composition
even with all these protoss player still manage to hide timing attacks / tech
what kind of scouting or lack of scouting scares the protoss in that period?
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EPT
