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On May 06 2011 01:32 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 21:35 Maliris wrote:
Yep I didn't really like this episode either. Everyone was way too hostile and really long boring imbalance talks, plus incontrol bullying tyler using classic debate team social manipulation, the kind of thing a salesman uses when going for the hard sell. Pretty sad... lost all my respect for incontrol.
I wish on SOTG they would discuss the scene and emergent strategies more rather than eSports politics like EG masters cup (which was a totally boring discussion too, good only for the drama if you care about that) Going to have to agree here. Show has potential and drama is interesting at times, but this was just a tad sad T_T. Especially when incontrol started shouting. It was simply exaggerated debating instead of actually talking and genuinely interacting from his part. Tyler actually managing to stay calm deserves props.Such a big fuss over nothing at all >_<
I agree with the bolded so much. It honestly amazes me that he kept it together. Though people may agree/disagree with their argument itself, Tyler deserves mad respect for staying calm.
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We can't scout at all in that time period. We don't have a bloody clue what you're doing. Personally, I'm scared that they'll be going ling/bling and I'll fuck up my forcefields when I move to take my nat. Only one way to find out as toss. Once I've got my nat and hallu is researching, I'm busy praying a huge roach/speedling allin isn't coming.
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I wonder what was going through Tasteless' mind. "Are all the show's like this ....?"
I hope he comes on the show again, when they go back to talking shit about horses and flip flops.
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Does tyler have a rifle behind his chair??
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On May 06 2011 01:46 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:34 Leavzou wrote:Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken. This is the most bs i ever read But he is right. The most Zerg players don't know the metagame of PvZ (not ZvP) and this way they just don't understand why they lose. And Idra is the main problem about that, because he keeps complaining without giving a drop of his actual game knowledge. Just as an example take the "Zerg needs to react to everything"-attitude. This attitude is false. The Protoss is the player who reacts to the Zerg. Take VR/Colossus. It hardcounters Roach/Hydra/Currupter, but it dies pretty easy to Infestor Ultralisk Ling. The most Zergs don't get that they force the Protoss player to build a certain army composition. They keep on building their own army composition BLIND. While Protoss watches: "Roaches ... hmm, let me add some Immortals ... oh fuck he is doing mass Ling Infestor, need fast Archons ..." And Zergs build their army, and then watch their army die. Or the "we can't scout attitude" You didn't see the old discussions about PvT. I don't want to elaborate that, but it pretty much ended that we had to go Robotics every time, or we take a huge risk. There are still BOs who counter Robo Builds pretty good, but it is the safest overall. But Zergs don't want to take risks (because Idra doesn't want to). At least now he does, but he still says he wants to play another game. If he doesn't like this part of game design, which actually is called strategy and tactics, he should leave the game alone.
Please don't say oh if you see vr/coll just go infestor ultra ling, it makes you look very narrow minded. The reason people go roach/hydra/corr is because they usually can not stay alive on just lings and infestors before getting to ultras. Any 2base timing attack will completely destroy a zerg with that composition. Getting to ultras is a pretty difficult task which requires 3base saturation at the least.
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I found it really tiring and kinda lame to just listen to IdrA and Day9 butt heads. The conversation went in circles, and it wasn't interesting - it was just IdrA being the same guy he always is and Day9 trying everything he could to avoid a game balance discussion.
Then, once that silly argument fizzled out, the whole EG master's cup argument started, which was also a silly argument to have, especially when it was even less game-relevant. That's a conversation that they could have had privately.
Personally, I listen to SotG to catch up on the Pro scene and hear good insight into current game trends, with a group of guys that are normally pretty silly and fun to listen to, and last episode didn't really cut it like the others. Wish all of this drama would just go away.
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i would love to hear opinions on inca and his pvp. being 16-2 in the gsl is a sick record
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On May 06 2011 02:03 GxZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:46 gnutz wrote:On May 06 2011 01:34 Leavzou wrote:Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken. This is the most bs i ever read But he is right. The most Zerg players don't know the metagame of PvZ (not ZvP) and this way they just don't understand why they lose. And Idra is the main problem about that, because he keeps complaining without giving a drop of his actual game knowledge. Just as an example take the "Zerg needs to react to everything"-attitude. This attitude is false. The Protoss is the player who reacts to the Zerg. Take VR/Colossus. It hardcounters Roach/Hydra/Currupter, but it dies pretty easy to Infestor Ultralisk Ling. The most Zergs don't get that they force the Protoss player to build a certain army composition. They keep on building their own army composition BLIND. While Protoss watches: "Roaches ... hmm, let me add some Immortals ... oh fuck he is doing mass Ling Infestor, need fast Archons ..." And Zergs build their army, and then watch their army die. Or the "we can't scout attitude" You didn't see the old discussions about PvT. I don't want to elaborate that, but it pretty much ended that we had to go Robotics every time, or we take a huge risk. There are still BOs who counter Robo Builds pretty good, but it is the safest overall. But Zergs don't want to take risks (because Idra doesn't want to). At least now he does, but he still says he wants to play another game. If he doesn't like this part of game design, which actually is called strategy and tactics, he should leave the game alone. Please don't say oh if you see vr/coll just go infestor ultra ling, it makes you look very narrow minded. The reason people go roach/hydra/corr is because they usually can not stay alive on just lings and infestors before getting to ultras. Any 2base timing attack will completely destroy a zerg with that composition. Getting to ultras is a pretty difficult task which requires 3base saturation at the least.
not to mention larvae inefficient if u go with zerglings before ultra, i am really trying to play this style but its very vulnerable to earlier attacks as you put it. It requires the toss to do almost no pressure before ur third is fully saturated and u have macro hatches up.
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On May 06 2011 01:52 N3rV[Green] wrote:
To the people claiming the famed "3 gate expo, ez pz safe imba"....
Have you ever played protoss your self? Have you ever gotten STOMPED by a zerg that read the 3 gate, and prepared the roach/ling timing off of more drones than the 3 gate expand has probes, while giving the opportunity to the zerg (if he doesn't win outright vs the pitiful 5-7 sentry 2 stalker 1-3 zealot army) to takea third after the attack.
Ya sure, 3 gate expand is safe vs a zerg that makes drones till 15 minutes in......
Seriously zerg players, stop playing zerg, and go play T or P for a while.
Put yourself in their shoes.
I play random. 3 gate expo is extremely safe and stable. If youre getting stomped by zergs using roach/ling with 3 gate then you must be terrible at using force fields.
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It only takes small mistakes to die using 3gate. Ask Kiwikaki or Alicia.
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On May 06 2011 01:55 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:46 gnutz wrote:On May 06 2011 01:34 Leavzou wrote:Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken. This is the most bs i ever read But he is right. The most Zerg players don't know the metagame of PvZ (not ZvP) and this way they just don't understand why they lose. And Idra is the main problem about that, because he keeps complaining without giving a drop of his actual game knowledge. Just as an example take the "Zerg needs to react to everything"-attitude. This attitude is false. The Protoss is the player who reacts to the Zerg. Take VR/Colossus. It hardcounters Roach/Hydra/Currupter, but it dies pretty easy to Infestor Ultralisk Ling. The most Zergs don't get that they force the Protoss player to build a certain army composition. They keep on building their own army composition BLIND. While Protoss watches: "Roaches ... hmm, let me add some Immortals ... oh fuck he is doing mass Ling Infestor, need fast Archons ..." And Zergs build their army, and then watch their army die. Or the "we can't scout attitude" You didn't see the old discussions about PvT. I don't want to elaborate that, but it pretty much ended that we had to go Robotics every time, or we take a huge risk. There are still BOs who counter Robo Builds pretty good, but it is the safest overall. But Zergs don't want to take risks (because Idra doesn't want to). At least now he does, but he still says he wants to play another game. If he doesn't like this part of game design, which actually is called strategy and tactics, he should leave the game alone. this attitude that zerg players are stupid and cannot comprehend the PvZ metagame is just wrong and insulting. Let me tell you what a zerg NEEDs to to in first 6-7 minutes of the game and compare it to the toss counter part. Zerg needs to check front with lings and have info on buildings / units in front Zerg needs to check cronoboosts on cybercore / count if any zerg need to scout map for hidden probes / tech zerg needs send in an Overlord to scout buildings / crono on nexus (if possible, cross positions, bigger maps, stalker on edge makes it impossible some time) Zerg needs to constantly sent a unit (usually a ling) after an expo is placed for possbile trickery / cancel and count units and unit composition even with all these protoss player still manage to hide timing attacks / tech what kind of scouting or lack of scouting scares the protoss in that period?
If Protoss wouldn't be able to at least hold every Zerg attack in the first minutes with perfect micro, the game would be ridicolously broken, because you can't scout at all in the first minutes.
We have not the opportunity to do all this checking, what actually puts Protoss at a disadvantage in that time.
The most of my PvZ are based on guessing. The good thing about that is: nearly every Zerg player plays like Idra, so most of the time you guess the right thing.
I even need to fake aggression. The problem is, if you go for a huge push the time i try to poke, i lose my sentries and i am dead. If i wouldn't do the poke, every Zerg would think "well, let me get my 3rd and mass drones" and you are also at a huge disadvantage.
You can't compare the mechanics of these situations, because Protoss just has not the opportunity to use so many mechanics.
But most Zergs want to rely purely on mechanics and that's why i say, Zergs don't know PvZ. They just don't think about all their opportunities. There are so many, you can get really really scared as Protoss. If you wouldn't meet one Zerg in two months, who actually does anything aside from standard Roach-defending.
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On May 06 2011 02:06 rO_Or wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:52 N3rV[Green] wrote:
To the people claiming the famed "3 gate expo, ez pz safe imba"....
Have you ever played protoss your self? Have you ever gotten STOMPED by a zerg that read the 3 gate, and prepared the roach/ling timing off of more drones than the 3 gate expand has probes, while giving the opportunity to the zerg (if he doesn't win outright vs the pitiful 5-7 sentry 2 stalker 1-3 zealot army) to takea third after the attack.
Ya sure, 3 gate expand is safe vs a zerg that makes drones till 15 minutes in......
Seriously zerg players, stop playing zerg, and go play T or P for a while.
Put yourself in their shoes. I play random. 3 gate expo is extremely safe and stable. If youre getting stomped by zergs using roach/ling with 3 gate then you must be terrible at using force fields.
Don't exclude the possibility that you're playing bad zergs - the fact that you play random means that you'll encounter that matchup at a pretty low frequency in comparison to many.
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On May 06 2011 01:32 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 21:35 Maliris wrote:
Yep I didn't really like this episode either. Everyone was way too hostile and really long boring imbalance talks, plus incontrol bullying tyler using classic debate team social manipulation, the kind of thing a salesman uses when going for the hard sell. Pretty sad... lost all my respect for incontrol.
I wish on SOTG they would discuss the scene and emergent strategies more rather than eSports politics like EG masters cup (which was a totally boring discussion too, good only for the drama if you care about that) Going to have to agree here. Show has potential and drama is interesting at times, but this was just a tad sad T_T. Especially when incontrol started shouting. It was simply exaggerated debating instead of actually talking and genuinely interacting from his part. Tyler actually managing to stay calm deserves props. Such a big fuss over nothing at all >_<
Even a heated debate can be good. In every situation though on this podcast (specifically) one side of the party had little to nothing to contribute, so it wasn't a debate just two sides getting repeated over and over with no new material added, so no middle ground could be made.
Idra Vs Day[9]
Complains about things that might actually be imbalanced.
Day[9] unwilling to contribute to an imbalance conversation.
Perhaps Idra is right, the one point I do give him credit on though is that his units are not as easily used in a counter offensive if you make too many. Scouting is not as big as he says it is. If there are 12 lings at the front of his wall off he has to use some of his hidden tech to defend that wall and you get a chance to spot what he is doing. The counter offensive does seem difficult, but nydus/drops along with hitting the front might be a good option there.
Tyler Vs Incontrol
Despite the "raising of the voice" it was just a weak argument from both sides. I can see where the middle ground is, but it isn't far off from what was at to begin with. The post probably should have said why the team didn't desire to play in the league as well as nobody should have taken offense for them leaving it out. It really doesn't seem like a big deal either way kind of laughable that for some reason it was heated.
I do however would also prefer the show was more directed to things that didn't wind up in a circle or at the very least if you were to talk about X topic it didn't seem like two rookies with no research were debating which number was a better sandwich from the McDonalds menu without ever tasting either. Talks about tournaments, strategy, future events, matchups are much better than a debate on something that won't change.
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Canada11429 Posts
On May 06 2011 01:25 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +IdrA's complaint is basically that he can be caught off guard and not be able to do anything about that, not that Zerg units are shit. He wants the scouting so he doesn't get caught off guard. Zerg is unusually vulnerable to being caught off guard because of the larva mechanic, not because their units are bad (they aren't) or whatever. No you did not understood what IdrA's said. IdrA said that, in a strategy game, you need at least one of 2 things: 1) full map knowledge, so that you can instantly react to everything your opponent do OR 2) an "all purpose" build that can theorically, if played well, counter all the possible strat your opponent can do and still give you a decent maccro (slightly better or slightly weaker than your opponent, still close).
Actually, this unnecessarily reduces strategies games into a either/or situation which is part of the problem. It's also possible to have an aggressive build that forces the other player to react to you. When you know that the player has to react to your build and not the other way around, you narrow the set of responses and unit compositions you have to face, thus allowing you safely build behind an aggressive opening as either they don't respond to your aggression and you create a lot of damage and/or you force them on a certain tech path that you're either teching to or ready to tech to.
It may that in this particular case, Zerg is also unable to create aggressive builds that force their opponent to react to the Zerg build rather than constant Zerg reaction. I don't know. But notice, that those two options were framed in terms of strategy game theory. That is, in a strategy game, you need either full map knowledge to reaction or an all purpose build that will counter everything they can throw at you- again reactive.
What it doesn't acknowledge is that in strategy games in general, there is the ability to have builds that force your opponent to react to your actions. So in that sense, Idra is creating a false dilemma for Day9 that Day9 cannot reasonably answer.
That Idra does not consider active play in his list of options required for a strategy game is rather indicative of his passive BW style, but is not the only way of play a strategy game. And yes Idra's been mixing it up with with so-called 'silly' aggressive play, and maybe Zerg is unable to make aggressive builds, but I find it problematic that he ignores the option entirely when describing strategy game theory in general.
Having said all that, I would like to see the Overlord speed increased and have wanted it to be faster since Beta when a lot of the scouting complaints first came out.
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On May 06 2011 02:06 rO_Or wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:52 N3rV[Green] wrote:
To the people claiming the famed "3 gate expo, ez pz safe imba"....
Have you ever played protoss your self? Have you ever gotten STOMPED by a zerg that read the 3 gate, and prepared the roach/ling timing off of more drones than the 3 gate expand has probes, while giving the opportunity to the zerg (if he doesn't win outright vs the pitiful 5-7 sentry 2 stalker 1-3 zealot army) to takea third after the attack.
Ya sure, 3 gate expand is safe vs a zerg that makes drones till 15 minutes in......
Seriously zerg players, stop playing zerg, and go play T or P for a while.
Put yourself in their shoes. I play random. 3 gate expo is extremely safe and stable. If youre getting stomped by zergs using roach/ling with 3 gate then you must be terrible at using force fields.
Probably as bad as Alicia's force fields against Losira. Man someone needs to teach that kid how to use FF he's so bad at it. Maybe you could be his coach and show him how easy it is to hold roach ling?
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On May 06 2011 02:09 gnutz wrote:
But most Zergs want to rely purely on mechanics and that's why i say, Zergs don't know PvZ. They just don't think about all their opportunities. There are so many, you can get really really scared as Protoss. If you wouldn't meet one Zerg in two months, who actually does anything aside from standard Roach-defending.
This is why I'd really like to hear Artosis's thoughts on the MU these days. That he keeps getting his ass kicked makes it all the more interesting.
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On May 06 2011 01:41 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:34 DoubleReed wrote:
Yes that's basically the problem. Scouting is the issue, not the units themselves. Zerg needs that scouting information more than the other races because scouting is so tied to zerg macro.
Well I certainly agree this is a difficulty of Zerg, but I'm not at all convinced it's actually broken. Their mechanic forces them to tread a very thin line at the competitive level (at lower levels you can be safer and just suck up the economic cost), but that doesn't mean the wire isn't still there. Just really hard to find. Show nested quote +
Unlike Terran and Protoss which have better defenses, Zerg cannot do some sort of middle-ground where our macro is so-so and our defense is so-so. You will lose instantly to all-ins and you will be at a disadvantage otherwise. We have to be able to react extremely, and without scouting we just have to guess.
Well, you can, and you do. Most Zerg openers make a pool before hatch. It's not the most economically efficient way, but it's a relatively small sacrifice and it stops a lot of nonsense like cannon rushes. The trick is to find out how to make that pool as late as you can, how to make as few zerglings as you can, when to store larvae until you confirm something etc etc. It's really, really hard. I'm not surprised it kills Zergs left and right. But that doesn't make it broken.
What? Yes, there are obviously things about pool first vs hatch first, and actually both have defensive abilities that are good. That's not what we're talking about though.
I'm talking about the early game where terran has a variety of all-ins that immediately kill the zerg player. You can't tread a middle ground with units and drones like that. You have to react extremely and without proper scouting that's just by chance. So it kills Zergs X% of the time if they're defending Y way.
It's not "unbeatable". It's "by chance" because we cannot scout.
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On May 06 2011 02:09 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:55 vojnik wrote:On May 06 2011 01:46 gnutz wrote:On May 06 2011 01:34 Leavzou wrote:Zerg ain't broken, Zerg PLAYERS are broken. This is the most bs i ever read But he is right. The most Zerg players don't know the metagame of PvZ (not ZvP) and this way they just don't understand why they lose. And Idra is the main problem about that, because he keeps complaining without giving a drop of his actual game knowledge. Just as an example take the "Zerg needs to react to everything"-attitude. This attitude is false. The Protoss is the player who reacts to the Zerg. Take VR/Colossus. It hardcounters Roach/Hydra/Currupter, but it dies pretty easy to Infestor Ultralisk Ling. The most Zergs don't get that they force the Protoss player to build a certain army composition. They keep on building their own army composition BLIND. While Protoss watches: "Roaches ... hmm, let me add some Immortals ... oh fuck he is doing mass Ling Infestor, need fast Archons ..." And Zergs build their army, and then watch their army die. Or the "we can't scout attitude" You didn't see the old discussions about PvT. I don't want to elaborate that, but it pretty much ended that we had to go Robotics every time, or we take a huge risk. There are still BOs who counter Robo Builds pretty good, but it is the safest overall. But Zergs don't want to take risks (because Idra doesn't want to). At least now he does, but he still says he wants to play another game. If he doesn't like this part of game design, which actually is called strategy and tactics, he should leave the game alone. this attitude that zerg players are stupid and cannot comprehend the PvZ metagame is just wrong and insulting. Let me tell you what a zerg NEEDs to to in first 6-7 minutes of the game and compare it to the toss counter part. Zerg needs to check front with lings and have info on buildings / units in front Zerg needs to check cronoboosts on cybercore / count if any zerg need to scout map for hidden probes / tech zerg needs send in an Overlord to scout buildings / crono on nexus (if possible, cross positions, bigger maps, stalker on edge makes it impossible some time) Zerg needs to constantly sent a unit (usually a ling) after an expo is placed for possbile trickery / cancel and count units and unit composition even with all these protoss player still manage to hide timing attacks / tech what kind of scouting or lack of scouting scares the protoss in that period? If Protoss wouldn't be able to at least hold every Zerg attack in the first minutes with perfect micro, the game would be ridicolously broken, because you can't scout at all in the first minutes. We have not the opportunity to do all this checking, what actually puts Protoss at a disadvantage in that time. The most of my PvZ are based on guessing. The good thing about that is: nearly every Zerg player plays like Idra, so most of the time you guess the right thing. I even need to fake aggression. The problem is, if you go for a huge push the time i try to poke, i lose my sentries and i am dead. If i wouldn't do the poke, every Zerg would think "well, let me get my 3rd and mass drones" and you are also at a huge disadvantage. You can't compare the mechanics of these situations, because Protoss just has not the opportunity to use so many mechanics. But most Zergs want to rely purely on mechanics and that's why i say, Zergs don't know PvZ. They just don't think about all their opportunities. There are so many, you can get really really scared as Protoss. If you wouldn't meet one Zerg in two months, who actually does anything aside from standard Roach-defending.
let me quote my earlier post
who says zerg NEVER should loose a game, thats stupid, and 3 gate expand vs zerg is one of the safest builds out there compared to BS zerg has, in most cases we saw a player loosing to roach / ling attack was bad building placement / FFs, its up to the protoss to scew FF and zerg cant do squat if they are properly placed no micro will help u there.
u DONT need detection before lair
u DONT need to worry about air attack before lair
only attack can come from ground from t1, 1.5 units which can be denied with FFs
how is that NOT safe?!
the reason idra points out WHY zerg needs scouting is because the other 2 races have just more deadly attack options, both terran and toss compared to early zerg aggression which is limited and can be denied by good micro in your case by the protoss using FFs and smart building positioning. To add more to that zerg has very specific counter units (maybe wrong word there but dont know how to put it otherwise).
Defending different strategies can take different tech paths to which we need info to plan, you flip a coin an go one way will scew you up if another type attack comes your way / or doesn't for that matter.
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On May 06 2011 02:14 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:41 Yaotzin wrote:On May 06 2011 01:34 DoubleReed wrote:
Yes that's basically the problem. Scouting is the issue, not the units themselves. Zerg needs that scouting information more than the other races because scouting is so tied to zerg macro.
Well I certainly agree this is a difficulty of Zerg, but I'm not at all convinced it's actually broken. Their mechanic forces them to tread a very thin line at the competitive level (at lower levels you can be safer and just suck up the economic cost), but that doesn't mean the wire isn't still there. Just really hard to find.
Unlike Terran and Protoss which have better defenses, Zerg cannot do some sort of middle-ground where our macro is so-so and our defense is so-so. You will lose instantly to all-ins and you will be at a disadvantage otherwise. We have to be able to react extremely, and without scouting we just have to guess.
Well, you can, and you do. Most Zerg openers make a pool before hatch. It's not the most economically efficient way, but it's a relatively small sacrifice and it stops a lot of nonsense like cannon rushes. The trick is to find out how to make that pool as late as you can, how to make as few zerglings as you can, when to store larvae until you confirm something etc etc. It's really, really hard. I'm not surprised it kills Zergs left and right. But that doesn't make it broken. What? Yes, there are obviously things about pool first vs hatch first, and actually both have defensive abilities that are good. That's not what we're talking about though. I'm talking about the early game where terran has a variety of all-ins that immediately kill the zerg player. You can't tread a middle ground with units and drones like that. You have to react extremely and without proper scouting that's just by chance. So it kills Zergs X% of the time if they're defending Y way. It's not "unbeatable". It's "by chance" because we cannot scout.
Examples? I don't play the MU but do watch plenty of replays of it, and I can't recall any losses that weren't due to an easily identifiable mistake.
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On May 06 2011 02:21 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 02:14 DoubleReed wrote:On May 06 2011 01:41 Yaotzin wrote:On May 06 2011 01:34 DoubleReed wrote:
Yes that's basically the problem. Scouting is the issue, not the units themselves. Zerg needs that scouting information more than the other races because scouting is so tied to zerg macro.
Well I certainly agree this is a difficulty of Zerg, but I'm not at all convinced it's actually broken. Their mechanic forces them to tread a very thin line at the competitive level (at lower levels you can be safer and just suck up the economic cost), but that doesn't mean the wire isn't still there. Just really hard to find.
Unlike Terran and Protoss which have better defenses, Zerg cannot do some sort of middle-ground where our macro is so-so and our defense is so-so. You will lose instantly to all-ins and you will be at a disadvantage otherwise. We have to be able to react extremely, and without scouting we just have to guess.
Well, you can, and you do. Most Zerg openers make a pool before hatch. It's not the most economically efficient way, but it's a relatively small sacrifice and it stops a lot of nonsense like cannon rushes. The trick is to find out how to make that pool as late as you can, how to make as few zerglings as you can, when to store larvae until you confirm something etc etc. It's really, really hard. I'm not surprised it kills Zergs left and right. But that doesn't make it broken. What? Yes, there are obviously things about pool first vs hatch first, and actually both have defensive abilities that are good. That's not what we're talking about though. I'm talking about the early game where terran has a variety of all-ins that immediately kill the zerg player. You can't tread a middle ground with units and drones like that. You have to react extremely and without proper scouting that's just by chance. So it kills Zergs X% of the time if they're defending Y way. It's not "unbeatable". It's "by chance" because we cannot scout. Examples? I don't play the MU but do watch plenty of replays of it, and I can't recall any losses that weren't due to an easily identifiable mistake.
It's so painfully obvious that you have no idea what youre talking about when it comes to zerg related discussion. This is just sad.
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EPT
