EPTI just think it's interesting that a pro caster couldn't hold his own in an argument and think on his feet fast enough to get some good arguments against someone who doesn't cast and doesn't use words for a living. And InControl didn't rescue day9 either... probably because he's better friends with Idra?
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 999
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randplaty
205 Posts
I just think it's interesting that a pro caster couldn't hold his own in an argument and think on his feet fast enough to get some good arguments against someone who doesn't cast and doesn't use words for a living. And InControl didn't rescue day9 either... probably because he's better friends with Idra? | ||
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kethers
United States719 Posts
I love Day9 as much as the next guy, but where is the proof? I do know he plays with other players of a high caliber (maybe in custom games)? But there is nothing that shows his real ladder ranking =( | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
IMO, Day[9] is a brilliant analyst despite not being an active player. Despite not possessing the necessary mechanics required to execute high level play, I think he possesses the right mindset and intellect to examine many builds, timings, and overall game design. He may currently not be a top player, but I can only imagine the great things he can pull off as a coach. | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:09 randplaty wrote: I just think it's interesting that a pro caster couldn't hold his own in an argument and think on his feet fast enough to get some good arguments against someone who doesn't cast and doesn't use words for a living. And InControl didn't rescue day9 either... probably because he's better friends with Idra? Because Day9 probably agreed with Idra. But since he spend his time telling people how they should not blame balance for their lose etc.. I find it logical that he doesn't want to talk about balance while 20k people are watching him. | ||
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
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rocketJ
8 Posts
He's competitive and I understand and respect that. Day9 does not want SC2 to be a game that whenever Idra plays, he wins. That makes it uninteresting as an eSport and the fickle spectators will soon tire of watching games that they know Idra will win. As will casters tire of casting games that Idra always win. The element of luck in guessing your opponents strategy is what keeps people watching. The possibility of an underdog coming from the misty edges of the community and marching on to a remarkable championship victory is what makes a sport popular with spectators. Idra and Day9 can never agree because from their own perspectives, they are both 100% correct. | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:16 DertoQq wrote: Because Day9 probably agreed with Idra. But since he spend his time telling people how they should not blame balance for their lose etc.. I find it logical that he doesn't want to talk about balance while 20k people are watching him. I agree with you and Day9... but I would have hoped that Day9 could have articulated clearly why he didn't want to talk about balance and why balance requires a lengthy discussion. He talked about "what does balance even mean" and the entire game theory thing where every game will lead to balance, and I personally know exactly what he's talking about, but Idra had no clue what he was talking about and I think most of the audience probably doesn't know what he's talking about. He only referenced it and I think it confuses a lot of people. He should have articulated his arguments more clearly. | ||
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Jman5
United States745 Posts
Idra wants to win every game and will complain about balance until he never loses. He's competitive and I understand and respect that. Idra will complain even if he wins every game. Idra is a great player, but you have to take what he says with a grain of salt. He over-exaggerates everything and will never be happy with Starcraft 2's balance. So listen to what he has to say, but recognize the bias that is core to his nature.  | ||
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Leavzou
France156 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:33 randplaty wrote: I agree with you and Day9... but I would have hoped that Day9 could have articulated clearly why he didn't want to talk about balance and why balance requires a lengthy discussion. He talked about "what does balance even mean" and the entire game theory thing where every game will lead to balance, and I personally know exactly what he's talking about, but Idra had no clue what he was talking about and I think most of the audience probably doesn't know what he's talking about. He only referenced it and I think it confuses a lot of people. He should have articulated his arguments more clearly. This argument is not pragmatic at all, that's why day9 could not face with the unquestionable arguments of idra. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On May 06 2011 02:06 rO_Or wrote: I play random. 3 gate expo is extremely safe and stable. If youre getting stomped by zergs using roach/ling with 3 gate then you must be terrible at using force fields. completely false. Toss is my main race and any good roach/ling timing will force toss to cancel or even lose his nexus. As good as sentry are at defense, its dps is hilariosuly low. 8-9 roaches+reinforcement of 20-30 lings can easily force a 3 gate sentry expand(which should have 2-3 stalkers, 6-8 sentriess and 1 zealot) back into main and that usually allows the zerg to take a 3rd. A perfect example is the grubby vs vibe game on NASL if you haven't watch it you should. | ||
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Frissehh
Iceland17 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:11 kethers wrote: I love Day9 as much as the next guy, but where is the proof? I do know he plays with other players of a high caliber (maybe in custom games)? But there is nothing that shows his real ladder ranking =( Well, besides him stating that he's in grandmasters league we don't really have proof. But what reason is there to lie? He has stated before that he has another account that he ladders on frequently but due to him not wanting to be called out whilst laddering he doesn't want to reveal what the account name is. Considering how much time he puts into refining his play and analyzing replays I think he's well over master league level but I guess it's just up to how people look into it because I doubt he's actually going to reveal his account just to satisfy some speculations. | ||
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
I feel like Zerg is just harder to play at an even level, the range disadvantage coupled with the low health of our units means you need to constantly be aware of how much danger they are in. The apm required to continuously scout while keeping your melee units spread and injecting larva so you don't fall behind in production while spreading creep so your units can be fast enough to get into range in later game for large engagements is hard. It doesn't make them weaker than other races, because other races have similar micro/macro issues as well. I've played toss, and I've played terran and if you are doing everything you have to do vs a zerg opponent it isn't easy either. Both races feel afraid of what the other race could do at various points in the game, in that way it seems somewhat fair, the difference being that Terran can open up 1 rax 1 factory get tanks with siege mode and marines, bunkers, an in base CC, and can be safe vs every single aggression zerg could do at this phase in the game, they may be behind a bit if zerg fast expanded, but not so much that you could never get back into the game with some clever drops or what have you. The problem for Zerg is that if the zerg scouts that front they don't know if your building 3 command centers, doing a hellion drop, 2 port banshee, marine marauder stim timing, 1 base tank rush, marauder hellion all in, and the responses are so vastly different that if you choose wrong you will probably die. As far as we know there aren't any defensive builds that put zerg only a little behind like in the previously mentioned case as terran doing a tank expand. Who knows maybe someone will adapt a version of spanishiwas style that will let you come into the midgame only a little behind and using drops / muta harass / infestors you can get back into an even game. I think this is what day[9] means, we haven't tried EVERY permutation of every build possible to find an answer, a year seems like a long time, but the meta game has been evolving constantly, now to be fair it often evolves thanks in large part to various nerfs and buffs, the stim timing being a major one recently that is helping us make it into mid game. Zergs are finally starting to even out and I think it's awesome. | ||
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Leavzou
France156 Posts
Look at Idra : Hes playing on his real account, and he does not care. Spams are not really anoying for him, he just ignore everyone. But he could take an other account to play macro games instead of facing cheeses. Day9 hide his account because if he is not grandmaster atm, he lose all his credibility. | ||
nShade
Bulgaria296 Posts
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Jman5
United States745 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:36 Leavzou wrote: This argument is not pragmatic at all, that's why day9 could not face with the unquestionable arguments of idra. Because you can't answer them with just a quick soundbite or a witty retort. The truth is you need to show multiple replays that clearly show the exact timeframe when zerg is in the dark. You need to show how sacrificing an overlord and scouting the ramp does not reveal what the terran/protoss is going for. Simply saying zerg can't scout is unequivocally false. There are so many things a zerg can do and so many tells a good zerg uses read his opponent. We can sit here all day making all sorts of unverifiable claims, but without replay evidence it's pointless. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
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Dystisis
Norway713 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:36 Leavzou wrote: This argument is not pragmatic at all, that's why day9 could not face with the unquestionable arguments of idra. Idra hardly used anything which can be called "arguments", he was simply making statements based on his own observations. True or not, it is not argumentation. | ||
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Leavzou
France156 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:43 Jman5 wrote: Because you can't answer them with just a quick soundbite or a witty retort. The truth is you need to show multiple replays that clearly show the exact timeframe when zerg is in the dark. You need to show how sacrificing an overlord and scouting the ramp does not reveal what the terran/protoss is going for. Simply saying zerg can't scout is unequivocally false. There are so many things a zerg can do and so many tells a good zerg uses read his opponent. We can sit here all day making all sorts of unverifiable claims, but without replay evidence it's pointless. Just look at the yesterday's stream of Idra, and get back with your arguments. Idra hardly used anything which can be called "arguments", he was simply making statements based on his own observations. True or not, it is not argumentation. So what is argumentation ? Take examples of other players ? | ||
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fraktoasters
United States617 Posts
Of course Starcraft 2 can be balance. If every single person played Terran it would suddenly be a balanced game. You know, Warcraft 3, the game with 4 races? Well really you could only be one of 3 races in the game competitively because there was an imbalanced. We should be concerned about balance because I don't want to play a Starcraft game with only 1 or 2 races. i.e., no one cares that the game might reach a balance state if that state is undesirable. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
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