EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1001
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Triscuit
United States722 Posts
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randplaty
205 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:01 Leavzou wrote: You definitly miss anderstand the point. A RPS player is a neutral player who chose between R P or S. A SC2 player is a player who fight with a race "forever". Your comparaison works only if a RPS player is stuck with R, P or S. No player is stuck with T, P, or Z. You can switch races between every tournament or even every game on ladder. No SC2 player is stuck with a race "forever." This is what Day9 meant when he said that every game will eventually get to balance.... even if it meant that every player would switch to one race. That's why he doesn't want to talk about balance. He wants to talk about skill and strategy. RPS has no skill or strategy and a game where everyone played Terran has less strategy and skill. Therefore the discussion should be centered around strategy and skill, NOT balance. THIS is what Day9 meant. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:01 Wazabo wrote: Day9 is right, it's non-sense to talk about balance in any kind of competition when both players are on the same field, aka playing the same game. Nobody is forcing Idra or any other zerg in the planet to play zerg. If they feel it's so broken change race already. Oh wait, it's better to bitch and cry about balance 24/7 while winning tournaments. That's absurd. Why should people stop playing zerg simply because perhaps it currently isn't up to par? That's akin to throwing and the towel and just giving up. Why play SC2 at all if you think it isn't balanced? Just quit! ....That kind of attitude is piss poor, believe it or not. | ||
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CrucialSC
Canada135 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
In the first ZvT game, he went quick 6 roaches to poke the terran wall (and killed a depot and some marines losing 4 roaches, so an at least an ok result). But this poke didn't made a lot of sense, so in the post game interview, Incontrol asked him, and he said "I hate hellions, so I'll show quick roaches so my opponent knows that I already countered his hellions if he wants to make some". I guess he could just whine that he can't scout hellions before seeing them too, but I don't know why, I prefer his approach of things. Little NASL spoiler below : Btw, in another matchup of yesterday's NASL, ZvP, the Z just roachling pressured a 3 gates expand, and guess what, he again killed the protoss. All those bad protosses that are dying to that, it's insane, they're all bad as I have yet to see just one defending this. (I have no doubt it will happen, but it won't happen before P change some parts of their builds, or all start playing perfect) | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:46 Leavzou wrote: Just look at the yesterday's stream of Idra, and get back with your arguments. I was under the impression that on his stream IdrA was reliably able to figure out what build his opponents were doing; that's what someone said earlier in the thread, anyway. Also, Sheth and Catz (the main Z streamers I watch) are correct upwards of 95% of the time in their determination of what their opponents are doing. Even Destiny gets it right most of the time... | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:04 randplaty wrote: No player is stuck with T, P, or Z. You can switch races between every tournament or even every game on ladder. No SC2 player is stuck with a race "forever." This is what Day9 meant when he said that every game will eventually get to balance.... even if it meant that every player would switch to one race. That's why he doesn't want to talk about balance. He wants to talk about skill and strategy. RPS has no skill or strategy and a game where everyone played Terran has less strategy and skill. Therefore the discussion should be centered around strategy and skill, NOT balance. THIS is what Day9 meant. Was IdrA not arguing that perhaps Zerg requires a greater extent of strategy execution (skill)? He pointed out a couple objective facts that make Zerg gamble without the defensive tools possessed by the other 2 races. I think his issue is that there is an imbalance in that regard, which Blizzard seems to be slowly addressing anyway. | ||
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Leavzou
France156 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:04 randplaty wrote: No player is stuck with T, P, or Z. You can switch races between every tournament or even every game on ladder. No SC2 player is stuck with a race "forever." This is what Day9 meant when he said that every game will eventually get to balance.... even if it meant that every player would switch to one race. That's why he doesn't want to talk about balance. He wants to talk about skill and strategy. RPS has no skill or strategy and a game where everyone played Terran has less strategy and skill. Therefore the discussion should be centered around strategy and skill, NOT balance. THIS is what Day9 meant. You are right, everyone should play random and roll a dice to win. You are so freaking far from the truth | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:58 FallDownMarigold wrote: Comparing apples to oranges. Starcraft 2 is much more dynamic than RPS, which is obviously a very static game. You can't make that analogy to prove your point - logical fallacy. That's not my point. My point is not to make an analogy. My point is exactly what you're saying. RPS is VERY different from SC2 and should not be evaluated the same way. The goal should not be balance... otherwise let's just play RPS. The goal should be dynamic strategy. That's why we play SC2. So stop talking about balance and start talking about dynamic strategy. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:07 TheTenthDoc wrote: I was under the impression that on his stream IdrA was reliably able to figure out what build his opponents were doing; that's what someone said earlier in the thread, anyway. Seems to know about 80% of the time. The other 20% find weakness in his build or he makes bad decisions. | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:07 Leavzou wrote: You are right, everyone should play random and roll a dice to win. You are so freaking far from the truth Are you reading what I'm saying? I'm saying we should NOT roll a random dice to win. But that's what you guys want when you're talking about balance. If balance is the be all end all to SC2, then that's what we should do. But since balance IS NOT the most important thing, it should not dominate the discussion of every matchup. When talking about Zerg, we should not be talking about balance, we should be talking about strategy. | ||
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Leavzou
France156 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:08 randplaty wrote: That's not my point. My point is not to make an analogy. My point is exactly what you're saying. RPS is VERY different from SC2 and should not be evaluated the same way. The goal should not be balance... otherwise let's just play RPS. The goal should be dynamic strategy. That's why we play SC2. So stop talking about balance and start talking about dynamic strategy. You are so freaking useless in this discussion... RPS has nothing to do with SC2, RPS is a game based on luck, wich involve probabilities to win. SC2 is a game wich invove strategies to win, and the match up should just affet whats differents strategies are availables; Balance is the fact that every race has the same chance to win, and if Z has 15% less for example, the game is just imbalanced. It's not a strategy problem, it's a game design problem. | ||
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Wazabo
Italy124 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:05 FallDownMarigold wrote: That's absurd. Why should people stop playing zerg simply because perhaps it currently isn't up to par? That's akin to throwing and the towel and just giving up. Why play SC2 at all if you think it isn't balanced? Just quit! ....That kind of attitude is piss poor, believe it or not. I think you didn't understand very well my post. You shouldn't whine about your race, ever. Nobody forced you to pick it. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:08 randplaty wrote: That's not my point. My point is not to make an analogy. My point is exactly what you're saying. RPS is VERY different from SC2 and should not be evaluated the same way. The goal should not be balance... otherwise let's just play RPS. The goal should be dynamic strategy. That's why we play SC2. So stop talking about balance and start talking about dynamic strategy. I see what you're saying. However, that implies that because there is an endless amount of permutations and build orders and luck factors in which the game can be played, there is no objective basis for balance. This may be the case. However, that said, as time goes on, patterns begin to emerge that DO suggest certain changes are needed in order to level out the playing field properly that CAN'T simply be fixed by "more strategic thinking", etc. SC2 technically has many ways in which it can be played, but in the end, there is a finite amount of possibilities. Very good players with a good sense of the game can predict these patterns and offer input regarding their potential solutions. | ||
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AntiGrav1ty
Germany2310 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:01 syllogism wrote: That's how the whole argument started; by Tyler making a huge deal about a completely neutral statement and then proceeding to make rather bizarre claims about posting on TL in general. I find it odd anyone would focus their ire on incontrol in that exchange. Can't really explain it by anything other than blind incontrol hate. Incontrol hate? Where is that incontrol hate seriously... Whether i agree or not I can see Tylers point. He doesn't like that Kobe (?) didn't tell the whole story and just said Liquid declined without saying the reasoning behind their decision (they didn't like the rules on servers). Most people wouldn't care as much but you should be able to see his point at least. His posts might have been agressive on the forums but he's trying to explain it in a calm matter on sotg. Why not just respond in a calm matter and say that it was the right thing to do for the admin and for eg instead of trying to ridicule everything he says with sarcasm and out of place analogies? I do not like that "style" of debating and it is just bad. | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:03 iNcontroL wrote: Fortunately you had SO much respect for me there is still a LOT remaining. HA! I WIN! VICTORY FOR INCONTROL IN 2011 if you run for president next year i will totally vote for you. even though im pretty sure youre not old enough to be president yet | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:11 Wazabo wrote: I think you didn't understand very well my post. You shouldn't whine about your race, ever. Nobody forced you to pick it. No, I perfectly understood your post. I don't think you understood my response. If there appears to be a problem, FIX IT. ADDRESS IT. Don't just WALK AWAY from it, and "pick another race". The point of SC2 is that there are 3 races battling each other. If there is in fact an objective problem among them (I'm not personally saying there is), then it needs to be addressed. You can't solve it by just expecting people to walk away from it and play another race in which the problem does not persist. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:08 Baarn wrote: Seems to know about 80% of the time. The other 20% find weakness in his build or he makes bad decisions. And that seems like great results, honestly. If you find and subsequently exploit a weakness in your opponent's build you deserve to win. If you make bad decisions you deserve to lose. | ||
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rolfe
United Kingdom1266 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:04 randplaty wrote: No player is stuck with T, P, or Z. You can switch races between every tournament or even every game on ladder. No SC2 player is stuck with a race "forever." This is what Day9 meant when he said that every game will eventually get to balance.... even if it meant that every player would switch to one race. That's why he doesn't want to talk about balance. He wants to talk about skill and strategy. RPS has no skill or strategy and a game where everyone played Terran has less strategy and skill. Therefore the discussion should be centered around strategy and skill, NOT balance. THIS is what Day9 meant. No, Day9 was saying a metagame will evolve and decide what are the optimal strategies and everything. A race or two may be completely eliminated from the metagame, but it will achieve 'balance' because we know what the optimal strategies are. As in, the metagame will eventually relax to a more equilibrium state, as more and more strategies are discovered. Right now, there are so many undiscovered strategies that the balance is almost impossible to determine. I have no idea what that has to do with what IdrA or anyone is saying about balance, of course. Because, as I said, an entire race could be eliminated from the metagame, which would be friggin' stupid and piss-poor design, even if it was 'balanced.' | ||
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