|
On May 04 2011 18:27 Rabiator wrote:
IdrA rages on about the "general character of the race". If he doesnt like that he should just change races. In any case the argument that Banelings cant be used offensively is ridiculous. Baneling can easily get rid of any wall-ins he complains about, but apparently Greg isnt allowed to do that. The whole point is that IdrA cant play the game in the style he wants and thats what he is complaining about.
Also the "I should win against those players" argument simply is bad and terribly arrogant.
Yep this is what ive been trying to say, im glad to see some like minded people finally joining in on the discussion. Yea when he said that zerg have no offensive builds i just chuckled and it made me realise how ignorant he can be sometimes.
Honestly im tired of hearing him complain and the amount of people that take what he says at face value, he should just switch races and be done with it. Maybe its just a publicity stunt though i really cant see anyone being that ignorant ><
|
On May 04 2011 18:25 Benjilol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:22 Tyrant0 wrote:A single stalker takes a little while to kill an overlord. If a protoss grabs two gas, and his second gateway unit is a stalker, you already know theres 100 gas unaccounted for. Even a simple poke with the lings can accomplish this; at least in zvp when counting sentries. Relying on visibly seeing every corner of their base to spot their tech is one dimensional, and basically corners you into the thinking that as long as he walls in and denies overlord scouting, you will never know his tech. Smart players hide units, and even fake second gas to throw zergs off.
I can't even think of a one-gas all-in aside from the stalker/zealot 4gate, that a two gas would trick the zerg into implying some super safe and economical build without revealing several sentries
At any rate, he can't hide his first few ranged units with a mineral walking drone, or an attentive zerg chewing down gateway shields with a few lings. I guess every toss just lets the overlord hang out over their nexus.
Zerg is pretty doomed.
|
I didn't watch it yet, but i'm thinking if i even should. Every SotG where Idra was on and they talked about balance, it was bad, because Idra has no arguments (i read these posts and i'm laughing at "Zerg should scout better", if Zerg would see what Protoss is doing, and would play like Idras reactionary strategies, then Zerg couldn't lose against Protoss. The problem is Idras mentality. He wants to play a style what cannot work, because if it would work, Zerg would be way overpowered. To say what i mean by "Idra-style": camping the whole game, defending everything the other races throw at him, and then win by defending everything. But now consider, he would be able to defend everything because he can scout everything. How should other races be able to win?)
The last SotGs the others didn't even try to discuss anything balance-related with Idra. I think i know why.
|
On May 04 2011 18:34 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:27 Rabiator wrote:
IdrA rages on about the "general character of the race". If he doesnt like that he should just change races. In any case the argument that Banelings cant be used offensively is ridiculous. Baneling can easily get rid of any wall-ins he complains about, but apparently Greg isnt allowed to do that. The whole point is that IdrA cant play the game in the style he wants and thats what he is complaining about.
Also the "I should win against those players" argument simply is bad and terribly arrogant. Yep this is what ive been trying to say, im glad to see some like minded people finally joining in on the discussion. Yea when he said that zerg have no offensive builds i just chuckled and it made me realise how ignorant he can be sometimes. Honestly im tired of hearing him complain and the amount of people that take what he says at face value, he should just switch races and be done with it. Maybe its just a publicity stunt though i really cant see anyone being that ignorant ><
ok so just to be sure here, you're saying that if you go banelings and waste 5 on a pylon (wich is pretty rare) so maybe 10+ banes to kill a wall in, first off thats called an all-in and if you do it economicly ur just fucking behind on tech if it fails, and also behind on econ that you coulda had if you didnt bane bust. second of all, banelings dont go through forcefields, so if you rely your baneling bust on your oponent being bad, that dosnt work at high level. you have to stop trying to find flaws in what idra says, because he is one of the best players in the world right now and what he says is usually pretty fucking accurate. if you're not talking about the early game banebust, your prob just dumb because tanks behind a wall pretty much shit on your whole army. Please think twice befor posting random statements, its pretty sad to read
|
Wow Idra smothered day9 with logic!
Idra: Zerg needs to be able to scout, overlord/groundscout dont work. It is a problem.
Day9: There are other possibilities.... .... ....
JP: Uh next case.
|
On May 04 2011 18:36 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:25 Benjilol wrote:On May 04 2011 18:22 Tyrant0 wrote:A single stalker takes a little while to kill an overlord. If a protoss grabs two gas, and his second gateway unit is a stalker, you already know theres 100 gas unaccounted for. Even a simple poke with the lings can accomplish this; at least in zvp when counting sentries. Relying on visibly seeing every corner of their base to spot their tech is one dimensional, and basically corners you into the thinking that as long as he walls in and denies overlord scouting, you will never know his tech. Smart players hide units, and even fake second gas to throw zergs off. I can't even think of a one-gas all-in aside from the stalker/zealot 4gate, that a two gas would trick the zerg into implying some super safe and economical build without revealing several sentries At any rate, he can't hide his first few ranged units with a mineral walking drone, or an attentive zerg chewing down gateway shields with a few lings. I guess every toss just lets the overlord hang out over their nexus. Zerg is pretty doomed.
IdrA's argument was mainly towards ZvT, and only considering ZvT+ ZvP on macro maps assuming you have more than 1 stalker or 2+marines out on the field by 6 minutes *assuming you guessed wrong on your first OL scout*
Either way, are you implying we must scout on 6 to beat the wall off? or put all eggs in the basket to hope the OL makes it either in the right place the first shot, or doesn't get killed by the appropriate amount of units beforehand? in T/PvZ neither have this problem because #1 nothing can kill their scout this early besides early pool or early speedlings (which shows your tech and they react accordingly) and if lings are out that early a good defensive reaction will downright win most games.
This is all assuming you don't get your OL to the right spot.
|
On May 04 2011 18:41 gnutz wrote:
I didn't watch it yet, but i'm thinking if i even should. Every SotG where Idra was on and they talked about balance, it was bad, because Idra has no arguments (i read these posts and i'm laughing at "Zerg should scout better", if Zerg would see what Protoss is doing, and would play like Idras reactionary strategies, then Zerg couldn't lose against Protoss. The problem is Idras mentality. He wants to play a style what cannot work, because if it would work, Zerg would be way overpowered. To say what i mean by "Idra-style": camping the whole game, defending everything the other races throw at him, and then win by defending everything. But now consider, he would be able to defend everything because he can scout everything. How should other races be able to win?)
The last SotGs the others didn't even try to discuss anything balance-related with Idra. I think i know why.
I didn't read your post, but I think I know what you usually say and it's allways bullcrap. I don't know yet if I should even read topics where you posted, because I know your mentality will ruin the topics, even though I haven't read your post yet.
|
On May 04 2011 18:22 Medrea wrote:
Idra's idea of having spinecrawlers have a build time faster than the rush distance almost completely negates the purpose of scouting to begin with.
Also. how come no one discusses the fact that you can cancel unnecessary building structures after you have ascertained that you are safe? Spanishiwa does this with spine crawlers all the time.
What are you talking about? He said since Zerg has little scouting capability early game, then there should be a defensive build that almost guarantees their survival to an early attack. Faster spine crawler build times would help alleviate the problem because it gives zerg a form of reactionary defense, but not solve the problem entirely.
Cancelling unnecessary build structures? How is that different from bunkers or cannons?
|
Incontrol/Tyler discussion means nothing. A trivial thing blown out of proportion.
Idra vs Day9 discussion is interesting.
Idra's points are valid but are also somewhat flawed at same time. All race have trouble scouting. After ling comes out, protoss basically does no scouting until heither hallucination, pheonix, or obs. Zerg has the same problem. Ovie is slow and people can hide building. If players are able to get perfect scouting every game. It will be just watching chess except with some micro which is boring. Luck and skill both matter. Flash andJaedong both only have around 70% win rate and they are the most dominating players so far in BW. I think Tyler made a great point that protoss players are taking a lot of risks in many build and if you try to fight "risky" build with "fair" builds of course sometimes when luck is not in your favor. You are going to lose. I mean even the safest 3 gate sentry expand for protoss. A very good roach/ling bust can easily deny the expo and force the toss into a 1 base play. Should scouting become easier and better? Debatable.
|
I question the level of reading comprehension in this thread where people think IdrA feels Zerg needs both reliable scouting and a build that can defend all aggression while being even or ahead while transitioning into mid game.
It was either or, and I was barely paying attention to the cast.
|
On May 04 2011 18:54 xbankx wrote:
Incontrol/Tyler discussion means nothing. A trivial thing blown out of proportion.
Idra vs Day9 discussion is interesting.
Idra's points are valid but are also somewhat flawed at same time. All race have trouble scouting. After ling comes out, protoss basically does no scouting until heither hallucination, pheonix, or obs. Zerg has the same problem. Ovie is slow and people can hide building. If players are able to get perfect scouting every game. It will be just watching chess except with some micro which is boring. Luck and skill both matter. Flash andJaedong both only have around 70% win rate and they are the most dominating players so far in BW. I think Tyler made a great point that protoss players are taking a lot of risks in many build and if you try to fight "risky" build with "fair" builds of course sometimes when luck is not in your favor. You are going to lose. I mean even the safest 3 gate sentry expand for protoss. A very good roach/ling bust can easily deny the expo and force the toss into a 1 base play. Should scouting become easier and better? Debatable.
so you are saying you actually like the rock paper scisors/luck factor that sc2 has? and btw you cant compare with BW since in starcraft 2 they made everything faster with mules/chrono/larva inject and also the pathing/ai of the game. Wich is why its a way bigger problem in sc2 than in BW...
|
idra man, thank you for not holding back during that discussion. that was amazing. from one zerg to another (:
|
|
|
Can we stop getting idra on the show... I mean listening to him rant for 30 mins every week was fun at first - but its getting a bit over the top.
|
On May 04 2011 18:54 xbankx wrote:
If players are able to get perfect scouting every game. It will be just watching chess except with some micro which is boring. Luck and skill both matter.
Go watch tournament poker then. Nothing more boring than watching coinflips determine who wins millions of dollars.
|
On May 04 2011 18:56 shaNk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:54 xbankx wrote:
Incontrol/Tyler discussion means nothing. A trivial thing blown out of proportion.
Idra vs Day9 discussion is interesting.
Idra's points are valid but are also somewhat flawed at same time. All race have trouble scouting. After ling comes out, protoss basically does no scouting until heither hallucination, pheonix, or obs. Zerg has the same problem. Ovie is slow and people can hide building. If players are able to get perfect scouting every game. It will be just watching chess except with some micro which is boring. Luck and skill both matter. Flash andJaedong both only have around 70% win rate and they are the most dominating players so far in BW. I think Tyler made a great point that protoss players are taking a lot of risks in many build and if you try to fight "risky" build with "fair" builds of course sometimes when luck is not in your favor. You are going to lose. I mean even the safest 3 gate sentry expand for protoss. A very good roach/ling bust can easily deny the expo and force the toss into a 1 base play. Should scouting become easier and better? Debatable.
so you are saying you actually like the rock paper scisors/luck factor that sc2 has? and btw you cant compare with BW since in starcraft 2 they made everything faster with mules/chrono/larva inject and also the pathing/ai of the game. Wich is why its a way bigger problem in sc2 than in BW...
No, there is always scouting and you can always get a bit of info from it. You can infer from info you gathered. Like if I play versus zerg, I send out my probe and I see 20 lings. I can narrow it down to baneling bust, mass ling, or muta play. Now I need to take a guess on what this player is most likely to do and on this particular map and using my past knowledge to attempt to get the best solution. Same with against terran, if terran walls off and I walk up the ramp and sees only marines. Now I can narrow it down to a few things, maybe he is going mass marine, maybe he is going tech like banshee. I can use this new knowledge with what I know from earlier scouts like gas timing to try to figure out what my opponent is doing. The thing is maybe the game has sped up with chronoboost, reactor, and larva inject. But all 3 races got sped up so relatively the game speed is still pretty much the same.
|
No, there is always scouting and you can always get a bit of info from it. You can infer from info you gathered. Like if I play versus zerg, I send out my probe and I see 20 lings. I can narrow it down to baneling bust, mass ling, or muta play. Now I need to take a guess on what this player is most likely to do and on this particular map and using my past knowledge to attempt to get the best solution. Same with against terran, if terran walls off and I walk up the ramp and sees only marines. Now I can narrow it down to a few things, maybe he is going mass marine, maybe he is going tech like banshee. I can use this new knowledge with what I know from earlier scouts like gas timing to try to figure out what my opponent is doing. The thing is maybe the game has sped up with chronoboost, reactor, and larva inject. But all 3 races got sped up so relatively the game speed is still pretty much the same.
for your terran example as zerg, I have to blindly guess depending on your wall of marine's if it's
banshee (queens, eats up unit and drone#'s because minerals are low still)
blueflame helion+marine push(roach warren, i won't even consider scv allin autorepair with mule support)
tank+marine(roach warren)
3rax stim timing (baneling nest)
6rax (baneling and hope i'm better at splitting banelings than he is marine or i run out of gas)
the randomness alone in those builds and the reaction I need to do is ridiculous, I have to rely on literally the timing of when you put your gas down to the amount of time your barrack's been active to maybe guess correctly, and when I do i'm just alive and we're pretty even in eco, while my units can't punish your expand because they're horrible for pressure.
|
|
|
The premise that someone has a right to know exactly what his opponent does and/or that there should be builds that deal with everything and come out even or ahead is dead wrong, you're absolutely never going to be given either in Starcraft if Blizzard has any sense left in them.
Other races don't have that either, so it's a very thin argument to begin with.
|
On May 04 2011 19:03 arioch wrote:
Can we stop getting idra on the show... I mean listening to him rant for 30 mins every week was fun at first - but its getting a bit over the top.
Speak for yourself , i love Idra being on the show, imo he brings far more to the show than day9 for example.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
