Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 944

On May 04 2011 18:14 zeru wrote:
It's like, Idra wants a way to 100% defend or a way to get perfect information against a player taking a risk/coin flip to get ahead but he doesn't want to take any risk himself. It would be pretty unfair and pointless if that was possible.

I also agree with day9s argument that discussing balance shouldn't be venting and can't be done the way idra wants it to, i kind of just facepalmed at idra during the whole day9 vs idra thing.

On May 04 2011 16:44 GhostFall wrote:
Sigh I don't really want to make a comment about the 2 arguments, but I'm bored at work soooo. here we go.

Both arguments were stupid. It was a pretty lame state of the game to be honest, because it had nothing to do with the actual state of the game.

Day9's argument is actually pretty airtight. Since people have trouble listening i'm going to lay it out as simple as possible. You can even argue this side without ever having played Starcraft 2.

Day9's Argument

1. There is a game with 2 players.
2. There is an optimal set of choices these 2 players can make to maximize their chance of victory. This is true of all games.
2a. (Starcraft specific) If this optimal set of choices does not include equality among race choice, the game can be said to be imbalanced.
3. If the optimal set of choices that maximize a player's chance for victory has not yet been discovered yet, then no one can conclusively say the game is imbalanced or not imbalanced.
4. In Starcraft 2,
-there is not enough data to support that the optimal set of choices has been reached.
-there has not been enough time to discover the optimal set of choices.
5. Thus, one cannot say say conclusively there exists imbalance.
6. Likewise, one cannot say conclusively there does not exist imbalance.

Idra's issue is he disagrees with tenet 4. He believes there is enough data to support that the optimal set of choices to win will not include equality among race choice. Specifically, he mentioned scouting. And with Idra's vast knowledge, he can cite specific examples for why failure to scout = death. I'm sure he has others reason's aside from that.

However, unless Idra is a godlike starcraft being with complete knowledge of of all initial conditions and variables, he cannot conclusively conclude Zerg is underpowered with his argument. He is by far closer to the correct conclusion than some others, but he cannot conclusively conclude the game is imbalanced yet. Likewise, however, no one in the show can conclude the game is balanced.

You can't continue the argument unless Idra was willing to admit he is not a godlike starcraft being with complete and total knowledge of the game. Idra pressed Day9 with essentially the question "Well what other unknowns are there then? What am i missing?" Obviously, Day9 can't respond to this. It's an unfair question. He has neither the expertise nor the position to answer such a question. Again, Idra believes he has explored the entirety of all Zerg options and cannot be swayed until either more options are presented to him.

Overall, you either accept Idra and other pro Zergs has explored the Zerg race conclusively, and thus game is imbalanced, or you accept Day9's tenet that there are still unknowns left to explore and thus one cannot conclude the game is imbalanced.

Personally, given the newness of this game and pure unbiased statistics I find it really hard to take Idra's side on this. In fact, I can only imagine other Zerg players taking Idra's side because they are the only ones with the opportunity to uncover all the unknown variables in this game.

Incontrol vs Tyler is way easier to break down.

It's a case of misunderstanding.
Tyler's argument
1. Tyler believes that Teamliquid's forums is TL's house. Indeed it probably is.
2. A "newcomer" to the TL forum from EG comes in and announces a team tournament on TL.
3. TL is notably absent from the tournament.
4. When asked why, the EG representative says "We invited them, and they declined."
5. There are a variety of reasons why TL declined the tournament. Tyler believes that EG's comment implies something negative towards TL. He takes additional offense that EG made this comment on the TL forums, ie in TL's own turf. Thus, the retaliation and his request that when making such comments, EG should explain all the details regardless whether or not it paints EG or TL in a negative light.

Incontrol disagrees with Tyler that what EG said implies any negativity. Secondly, he believes they do not have the right to post TL's side of the story because they are not TL. Furthermore, he believes EG or any other team should be allowed to paint their team in a non negative light on TL because it is THE SC community. I do however believe incontrol is in agreement with tyler that no team should be allowed to paint TL's team in a negative light on TL's own forums.

Incontrol and Tyler just interpreted the same thing differently with different sets of values.

Seriously, these 2 things were not interesting to listen to, but hey better than work.

On May 04 2011 18:04 Ksi wrote:


I think Zerg players should be given the option to pay 50 minerals to morph their overlord to a new unit. It will have 1000 hp, no attack, provides no supply, and flies at twice the speed of a slow overlord. It will be called a Zerg Sckarrab.

On May 04 2011 18:17 Benjilol wrote:


Idra just wants a way to scout and react to whatever your opponent is doing, as opposed to flipping a coin and hoping you guessed correct.

A single stalker takes a little while to kill an overlord.

On May 04 2011 18:22 Tyrant0 wrote:


If a protoss grabs two gas, and his second gateway unit is a stalker, you already know theres 100 gas unaccounted for. Even a simple poke with the lings can accomplish this; at least in zvp when counting sentries.

Relying on visibly seeing every corner of their base to spot their tech is one dimensional, and basically corners you into the thinking that as long as he walls in and denies overlord scouting, you will never know his tech.

On May 04 2011 18:19 zeru wrote:

I have learned that discussing in this thread isnt actually discussing. It's a clash of opinions that leads to nothing, no one is gonna change their minds over how they think, i recommend not trying to discuss the majority of subjects in here, of course some subjects can be productive, but that's rare.

People love to close their eyes, put their hands over their ears and yell out loud what they think over and over.

On May 04 2011 18:22 Medrea wrote:
Also. how come no one discusses the fact that you can cancel unnecessary building structures after you have ascertained that you are safe? Spanishiwa does this with spine crawlers all the time.

On May 04 2011 18:24 Medrea wrote:
They should make rocks in front of every natural to force mid game.

Air rocks too around the bases.

On May 04 2011 18:22 Tyrant0 wrote:


If a protoss grabs two gas, and his second gateway unit is a stalker, you already know theres 100 gas unaccounted for. Even a simple poke with the lings can accomplish this; at least in zvp when counting sentries.

Relying on visibly seeing every corner of their base to spot their tech is one dimensional, and basically corners you into the thinking that as long as he walls in and denies overlord scouting, you will never know his tech.

On May 04 2011 18:23 Azarkon wrote:
And just because there is forced randomness does not mean there is imbalance. Idra is arguably confusing his issues with the game design, which are legitimate, with the balance between the races.