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On May 04 2011 16:44 GhostFall wrote:
Sigh I don't really want to make a comment about the 2 arguments, but I'm bored at work soooo. here we go.
Both arguments were stupid. It was a pretty lame state of the game to be honest, because it had nothing to do with the actual state of the game.
Day9's argument is actually pretty airtight. Since people have trouble listening i'm going to lay it out as simple as possible. You can even argue this side without ever having played Starcraft 2.
Day9's Argument
1. There is a game with 2 players.
2. There is an optimal set of choices these 2 players can make to maximize their chance of victory. This is true of all games.
2a. (Starcraft specific) If this optimal set of choices does not include equality among race choice, the game can be said to be imbalanced.
3. If the optimal set of choices that maximize a player's chance for victory has not yet been discovered yet, then no one can conclusively say the game is imbalanced or not imbalanced.
4. In Starcraft 2,
-there is not enough data to support that the optimal set of choices has been reached.
-there has not been enough time to discover the optimal set of choices.
5. Thus, one cannot say say conclusively there exists imbalance.
6. Likewise, one cannot say conclusively there does not exist imbalance.
Idra's issue is he disagrees with tenet 4. He believes there is enough data to support that the optimal set of choices to win will not include equality among race choice. Specifically, he mentioned scouting. And with Idra's vast knowledge, he can cite specific examples for why failure to scout = death. I'm sure he has others reason's aside from that.
However, unless Idra is a godlike starcraft being with complete knowledge of of all initial conditions and variables, he cannot conclusively conclude Zerg is underpowered with his argument. He is by far closer to the correct conclusion than some others, but he cannot conclusively conclude the game is imbalanced yet. Likewise, however, no one in the show can conclude the game is balanced.
You can't continue the argument unless Idra was willing to admit he is not a godlike starcraft being with complete and total knowledge of the game. Idra pressed Day9 with essentially the question "Well what other unknowns are there then? What am i missing?" Obviously, Day9 can't respond to this. It's an unfair question. He has neither the expertise nor the position to answer such a question. Again, Idra believes he has explored the entirety of all Zerg options and cannot be swayed until either more options are presented to him.
Overall, you either accept Idra and other pro Zergs has explored the Zerg race conclusively, and thus game is imbalanced, or you accept Day9's tenet that there are still unknowns left to explore and thus one cannot conclude the game is imbalanced.
Personally, given the newness of this game and pure unbiased statistics I find it really hard to take Idra's side on this. In fact, I can only imagine other Zerg players taking Idra's side because they are the only ones with the opportunity to uncover all the unknown variables in this game.
Incontrol vs Tyler is way easier to break down.
It's a case of misunderstanding.
Tyler's argument
1. Tyler believes that Teamliquid's forums is TL's house. Indeed it probably is.
2. A "newcomer" to the TL forum from EG comes in and announces a team tournament on TL.
3. TL is notably absent from the tournament.
4. When asked why, the EG representative says "We invited them, and they declined."
5. There are a variety of reasons why TL declined the tournament. Tyler believes that EG's comment implies something negative towards TL. He takes additional offense that EG made this comment on the TL forums, ie in TL's own turf. Thus, the retaliation and his request that when making such comments, EG should explain all the details regardless whether or not it paints EG or TL in a negative light.
Incontrol disagrees with Tyler that what EG said implies any negativity. Secondly, he believes they do not have the right to post TL's side of the story because they are not TL. Furthermore, he believes EG or any other team should be allowed to paint their team in a non negative light on TL because it is THE SC community. I do however believe incontrol is in agreement with tyler that no team should be allowed to paint TL's team in a negative light on TL's own forums.
Incontrol and Tyler just interpreted the same thing differently with different sets of values.
Seriously, these 2 things were not interesting to listen to, but hey better than work.
Feel like this is a great post that sums of stuff nicely so that people don't even have to watch the VOD to understand what went down on this episode. Thanks.
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On May 04 2011 17:48 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:44 Mojar wrote:On May 04 2011 17:41 Executor1 wrote:On May 04 2011 17:37 reprise wrote:On May 04 2011 17:21 Executor1 wrote:
You dont need fast overlord speed to scout early game no player is going to have that many units out and usually before the 4 gates go up say your doing 4 gate you have about 1 stalker out, are you telling me you cant get into the base and see whats going on before 1 stalker kills your overlord, whoever thinks that must have terrible overlord control or something.
Sure there is a chance you wont see it i guess, but there are other ways of telling including poking at the ramp to see army composition if you see lots of sentries your most likely safe if you see lots of stalkers and zealots get up some damn spines.
It appears you have the entire matchup figured out. It's a shame people who play for a living haven't yet. Do you even watch pros play? On May 04 2011 17:21 Executor1 wrote:
Honestly its almost like saying " protoss never has a chance to scout terran because they can put turret parameters around their base" thats pretty much what idra was saying but he was replacing it with units Horrible argument. Don't make comparative statements that don't even hold. yes suggesting ways to scout with an overlord surely means i have the entire matchup figured out. Your a smart cookie aren't you your suggestion is mute as a terran or protoss can easily deny scouting with 1 stalker or a few marines, a slow overlord is useless if your playing a decent opponent. Okay im going to stop with the snarkiness but lets be reasonable here does anyone know exactly how long it takes for a stalker to kill an overlord or 2 marines to kill an overlord?
Not that long actually. It's obvious that you don't pay attention to Zergs playing. You suggest things known long ago and resort to ad hominem instead of attacking the argument. You pick out nonconclusive stats to reinforce your stance and accuse people of being IdrA followers because they simply share a similar opinion.
Make a non shitty post and people will happily converse with you. Otherwise, stop bringing up dead points, crap arguments, and insulting others.
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"State of the Game, better than work!"
lmao
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Loving the podcast, keep up the good work!
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On May 04 2011 17:48 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:44 Mojar wrote:On May 04 2011 17:41 Executor1 wrote:On May 04 2011 17:37 reprise wrote:On May 04 2011 17:21 Executor1 wrote:
You dont need fast overlord speed to scout early game no player is going to have that many units out and usually before the 4 gates go up say your doing 4 gate you have about 1 stalker out, are you telling me you cant get into the base and see whats going on before 1 stalker kills your overlord, whoever thinks that must have terrible overlord control or something.
Sure there is a chance you wont see it i guess, but there are other ways of telling including poking at the ramp to see army composition if you see lots of sentries your most likely safe if you see lots of stalkers and zealots get up some damn spines.
It appears you have the entire matchup figured out. It's a shame people who play for a living haven't yet. Do you even watch pros play? On May 04 2011 17:21 Executor1 wrote:
Honestly its almost like saying " protoss never has a chance to scout terran because they can put turret parameters around their base" thats pretty much what idra was saying but he was replacing it with units Horrible argument. Don't make comparative statements that don't even hold. yes suggesting ways to scout with an overlord surely means i have the entire matchup figured out. Your a smart cookie aren't you your suggestion is mute as a terran or protoss can easily deny scouting with 1 stalker or a few marines, a slow overlord is useless if your playing a decent opponent. Okay im going to stop with the snarkiness but lets be reasonable here does anyone know exactly how long it takes for a stalker to kill an overlord or 2 marines to kill an overlord?
I'm not trying to be snarky, either, but do you know what the speed of an overlord is? It is exactly half the speed of a floating building. Half the speed.
So a 50% speed buff to unupgraded overlord would still make it 3/4 the speed of a floating building.
Now floating buildings are not fast, mind you. In fact, they are slow as shit.
Sacrificing an overlord when a stalker or 2 marines attack at you will get the outer region of the base. It won't get you the interior, if the stalker and marines are already at the perimeter. You can try sacing two overlords, but it's not guaranteed, either, especially by that timing there will be more than just 2 marines.
Also to keep in mind is that in many maps it's not possible to get a 2nd overlord to the base within the critical timeframe.
If you could just sacrifice an overlord and be able to see essentially the entire base, there wouldn't be an issue of possible scouting. 100 minerals is really cheap in order to know if they are going to do a hardcore all-in on you. But you have to get lucky with that overlord. And it's not even possible on certain maps.
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Okay i just did a test on the unit tester using the platform in the middle as "the base"
I used the best possible scenario for the stalker assuming the player noticed right away and the stalker was right in position and hit the overlord just as he was approaching the ledge. The platform in the unit tester is easily as big as a normal base if not slightly bigger than some like xelnaga caverns.
So the stalker hits maybe 4 in game seconds before the overlord reaches the ledge this is assuming the best possible situation as unless you are standing right on the ledge or very close to it in the right position you will not see the overlord until it has passed the ledge. It took 27 in game seconds to kill the overlord and by that time it had completely scouted the entire platform except for 2 small corners (not enough space to fit a building without being seen)
i will no try it with 2 marines, obviously this is pretty subjective but it gives an idea of how easy / hard it is for zerg to scout in optimal condition for the protoss
ill try for the terran now
Edit: so i geuss it really depends on some precise timing for the OV scout if you do it when only 1 stalker is out i think you should have a pretty good chance at scouting the base, after a second glance at the unit tester platform it is defenetly bigger than an average base , although it is symmetrical unlike most bases.
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Have to agree with incontrol on this one.
edit: hopefully team websites will not become hostile towards other teams.
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On May 04 2011 16:44 GhostFall wrote:
Sigh I don't really want to make a comment about the 2 arguments, but I'm bored at work soooo. here we go.
Both arguments were stupid. It was a pretty lame state of the game to be honest, because it had nothing to do with the actual state of the game.
Day9's argument is actually pretty airtight. Since people have trouble listening i'm going to lay it out as simple as possible. You can even argue this side without ever having played Starcraft 2.
Day9's Argument
1. There is a game with 2 players.
2. There is an optimal set of choices these 2 players can make to maximize their chance of victory. This is true of all games.
2a. (Starcraft specific) If this optimal set of choices does not include equality among race choice, the game can be said to be imbalanced.
3. If the optimal set of choices that maximize a player's chance for victory has not yet been discovered yet, then no one can conclusively say the game is imbalanced or not imbalanced.
4. In Starcraft 2,
-there is not enough data to support that the optimal set of choices has been reached.
-there has not been enough time to discover the optimal set of choices.
5. Thus, one cannot say say conclusively there exists imbalance.
6. Likewise, one cannot say conclusively there does not exist imbalance.
Idra's issue is he disagrees with tenet 4. He believes there is enough data to support that the optimal set of choices to win will not include equality among race choice. Specifically, he mentioned scouting. And with Idra's vast knowledge, he can cite specific examples for why failure to scout = death. I'm sure he has others reason's aside from that.
However, unless Idra is a godlike starcraft being with complete knowledge of of all initial conditions and variables, he cannot conclusively conclude Zerg is underpowered with his argument. He is by far closer to the correct conclusion than some others, but he cannot conclusively conclude the game is imbalanced yet. Likewise, however, no one in the show can conclude the game is balanced.
You can't continue the argument unless Idra was willing to admit he is not a godlike starcraft being with complete and total knowledge of the game. Idra pressed Day9 with essentially the question "Well what other unknowns are there then? What am i missing?" Obviously, Day9 can't respond to this. It's an unfair question. He has neither the expertise nor the position to answer such a question. Again, Idra believes he has explored the entirety of all Zerg options and cannot be swayed until either more options are presented to him.
Overall, you either accept Idra and other pro Zergs has explored the Zerg race conclusively, and thus game is imbalanced, or you accept Day9's tenet that there are still unknowns left to explore and thus one cannot conclude the game is imbalanced.
Personally, given the newness of this game and pure unbiased statistics I find it really hard to take Idra's side on this. In fact, I can only imagine other Zerg players taking Idra's side because they are the only ones with the opportunity to uncover all the unknown variables in this game.
Incontrol vs Tyler is way easier to break down.
It's a case of misunderstanding.
Tyler's argument
1. Tyler believes that Teamliquid's forums is TL's house. Indeed it probably is.
2. A "newcomer" to the TL forum from EG comes in and announces a team tournament on TL.
3. TL is notably absent from the tournament.
4. When asked why, the EG representative says "We invited them, and they declined."
5. There are a variety of reasons why TL declined the tournament. Tyler believes that EG's comment implies something negative towards TL. He takes additional offense that EG made this comment on the TL forums, ie in TL's own turf. Thus, the retaliation and his request that when making such comments, EG should explain all the details regardless whether or not it paints EG or TL in a negative light.
Incontrol disagrees with Tyler that what EG said implies any negativity. Secondly, he believes they do not have the right to post TL's side of the story because they are not TL. Furthermore, he believes EG or any other team should be allowed to paint their team in a non negative light on TL because it is THE SC community. I do however believe incontrol is in agreement with tyler that no team should be allowed to paint TL's team in a negative light on TL's own forums.
Incontrol and Tyler just interpreted the same thing differently with different sets of values.
Seriously, these 2 things were not interesting to listen to, but hey better than work.
Yeah uh, Can we actually sticky this or something. This pretty much sums it up perfectly.
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Tyler and Incontrol's argument shows how text can be really misleading because you cant read body language or tone from it. I don't think EG meant offense but vague words can be interpreted in a few ways.
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damn i missed this episode ! gonna watch the vod asap :D
did we make the 20k to make IdrA fulfill his promise ? ^^
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On May 04 2011 16:44 GhostFall wrote:
Sigh I don't really want to make a comment about the 2 arguments, but I'm bored at work soooo. here we go.
Both arguments were stupid. It was a pretty lame state of the game to be honest, because it had nothing to do with the actual state of the game.
Day9's argument is actually pretty airtight. Since people have trouble listening i'm going to lay it out as simple as possible. You can even argue this side without ever having played Starcraft 2.
Day9's Argument
1. There is a game with 2 players.
2. There is an optimal set of choices these 2 players can make to maximize their chance of victory. This is true of all games.
2a. (Starcraft specific) If this optimal set of choices does not include equality among race choice, the game can be said to be imbalanced.
3. If the optimal set of choices that maximize a player's chance for victory has not yet been discovered yet, then no one can conclusively say the game is imbalanced or not imbalanced.
4. In Starcraft 2,
-there is not enough data to support that the optimal set of choices has been reached.
-there has not been enough time to discover the optimal set of choices.
5. Thus, one cannot say say conclusively there exists imbalance.
6. Likewise, one cannot say conclusively there does not exist imbalance.
Idra's issue is he disagrees with tenet 4. He believes there is enough data to support that the optimal set of choices to win will not include equality among race choice. Specifically, he mentioned scouting. And with Idra's vast knowledge, he can cite specific examples for why failure to scout = death. I'm sure he has others reason's aside from that.
However, unless Idra is a godlike starcraft being with complete knowledge of of all initial conditions and variables, he cannot conclusively conclude Zerg is underpowered with his argument. He is by far closer to the correct conclusion than some others, but he cannot conclusively conclude the game is imbalanced yet. Likewise, however, no one in the show can conclude the game is balanced.
You can't continue the argument unless Idra was willing to admit he is not a godlike starcraft being with complete and total knowledge of the game. Idra pressed Day9 with essentially the question "Well what other unknowns are there then? What am i missing?" Obviously, Day9 can't respond to this. It's an unfair question. He has neither the expertise nor the position to answer such a question. Again, Idra believes he has explored the entirety of all Zerg options and cannot be swayed until either more options are presented to him.
Overall, you either accept Idra and other pro Zergs has explored the Zerg race conclusively, and thus game is imbalanced, or you accept Day9's tenet that there are still unknowns left to explore and thus one cannot conclude the game is imbalanced.
Personally, given the newness of this game and pure unbiased statistics I find it really hard to take Idra's side on this. In fact, I can only imagine other Zerg players taking Idra's side because they are the only ones with the opportunity to uncover all the unknown variables in this game.
Incontrol vs Tyler is way easier to break down.
It's a case of misunderstanding.
Tyler's argument
1. Tyler believes that Teamliquid's forums is TL's house. Indeed it probably is.
2. A "newcomer" to the TL forum from EG comes in and announces a team tournament on TL.
3. TL is notably absent from the tournament.
4. When asked why, the EG representative says "We invited them, and they declined."
5. There are a variety of reasons why TL declined the tournament. Tyler believes that EG's comment implies something negative towards TL. He takes additional offense that EG made this comment on the TL forums, ie in TL's own turf. Thus, the retaliation and his request that when making such comments, EG should explain all the details regardless whether or not it paints EG or TL in a negative light.
Incontrol disagrees with Tyler that what EG said implies any negativity. Secondly, he believes they do not have the right to post TL's side of the story because they are not TL. Furthermore, he believes EG or any other team should be allowed to paint their team in a non negative light on TL because it is THE SC community. I do however believe incontrol is in agreement with tyler that no team should be allowed to paint TL's team in a negative light on TL's own forums.
Incontrol and Tyler just interpreted the same thing differently with different sets of values.
Seriously, these 2 things were not interesting to listen to, but hey better than work.
Thanks for summarizing it, I will still watch it because it sounds entertaining nonetheless.
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On May 04 2011 17:57 Frozenserpent wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:48 Executor1 wrote:On May 04 2011 17:44 Mojar wrote:On May 04 2011 17:41 Executor1 wrote:On May 04 2011 17:37 reprise wrote:On May 04 2011 17:21 Executor1 wrote:
You dont need fast overlord speed to scout early game no player is going to have that many units out and usually before the 4 gates go up say your doing 4 gate you have about 1 stalker out, are you telling me you cant get into the base and see whats going on before 1 stalker kills your overlord, whoever thinks that must have terrible overlord control or something.
Sure there is a chance you wont see it i guess, but there are other ways of telling including poking at the ramp to see army composition if you see lots of sentries your most likely safe if you see lots of stalkers and zealots get up some damn spines.
It appears you have the entire matchup figured out. It's a shame people who play for a living haven't yet. Do you even watch pros play? On May 04 2011 17:21 Executor1 wrote:
Honestly its almost like saying " protoss never has a chance to scout terran because they can put turret parameters around their base" thats pretty much what idra was saying but he was replacing it with units Horrible argument. Don't make comparative statements that don't even hold. yes suggesting ways to scout with an overlord surely means i have the entire matchup figured out. Your a smart cookie aren't you your suggestion is mute as a terran or protoss can easily deny scouting with 1 stalker or a few marines, a slow overlord is useless if your playing a decent opponent. Okay im going to stop with the snarkiness but lets be reasonable here does anyone know exactly how long it takes for a stalker to kill an overlord or 2 marines to kill an overlord? I'm not trying to be snarky, either, but do you know what the speed of an overlord is? It is exactly half the speed of a floating building. Half the speed. So a 50% speed buff to unupgraded overlord would still make it 3/4 the speed of a floating building. Now floating buildings are not fast, mind you. In fact, they are slow as shit. Sacrificing an overlord when a stalker or 2 marines attack at you will get the outer region of the base. It won't get you the interior, if the stalker and marines are already at the perimeter. You can try sacing two overlords, but it's not guaranteed, either, especially by that timing there will be more than just 2 marines. Also to keep in mind is that in many maps it's not possible to get a 2nd overlord to the base within the critical timeframe. If you could just sacrifice an overlord and be able to see essentially the entire base, there wouldn't be an issue of possible scouting. 100 minerals is really cheap in order to know if they are going to do a hardcore all-in on you. But you have to get lucky with that overlord. And it's not even possible on certain maps.
I think Zerg players should be given the option to pay 50 minerals to morph their overlord to a new unit. It will have 1000 hp, no attack, provides no supply, and flies at twice the speed of a slow overlord. It will be called a Zerg Sckarrab.
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You should also include the Tyler vs. Idra angle, which is an important part of the game theoretic argument. Tyler suggests that what Idra was talking about (easy denial of scouting leading to coin-flips) is not, in fact, a manifestation of imbalance but of intrinsic randomness in the game. This adds an extra dimension to the discussion because it implies that even if it were the case that the optimal set of choices included equality among race choice, it is still possible for a game to fail under Idra's standards because Idra believes that he should always beat someone who is worse than him, which is not guaranteed in games with randomness. Idra then admitted that what he was talking about might be more related to bad game design than imbalance.
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Okay so against terran with 2 marines it was significantly worse in an "optimal" situation for the terran, about 3/4 of the base was scouted using the same conditions as with the stalker , so about 4 in game seconds before the overlord hit the ledge it was getting hit by marines.
So although i do agree its alot harder to get the information you need it is by no means impossible if you time it right. If the protoss only has 1 stalker out even if it scouts the overlord before it passes the ledge you are likely to get a full scout off depending on angle and size of the base of course but the base i was using was larger than alot of maps.
Against terran under optimal conditions you will likely gather most of the information but you could easily missed key building hidden on opposite sides of the scout.
A trick for this may be just to have 2 overlords with 1 always being out of range and just scouting for hidden building around the parameter as you will most likely see all buildings placed in and around the center of the base by sacking an ov, assuming you time it right and 2 marines are out.
from testing though speed overlords or overseers should have no problem scouting mid to late game i dont really think thats the problem people are talking about though. Overseers with speed can easily outmaneuver most ground units between that and changelings it shouldnt really be a problem
people seem to forget to mention changelings when talking about zerg scouting, although i assume most people have a problem with the early game overlord sack, especially against terran.
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http://i.imgur.com/FVhM9.png
Was posted earlier but I don't think it got enough attention, check it out.
It shows how the game has evolved and how everything is very very quickly reaching an equilibrium as the data set is expanded and time is allowed for self correction.
Also it currently shows Zerg ahead of protoss in PvZ as of late.
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and thats 16 supply you risk losing!
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On May 04 2011 16:44 GhostFall wrote:
Sigh I don't really want to make a comment about the 2 arguments, but I'm bored at work soooo. here we go.
Both arguments were stupid. It was a pretty lame state of the game to be honest, because it had nothing to do with the actual state of the game.
Seriously, these 2 things were not interesting to listen to, but hey better than work.
And I couldn't have said it better myself..
Seriously this was a SotG without ANY sc2 talk about the actual STATE of the GAME. This was like Jp's dream episode of nothing but drama and little to no game analysis/strategy discussion.
Maybe next week they will talk about Starcraft 2 instead of carrying over arguements from TL.net threads into SotG.
If you don't give a shit about what podcast you watch/listen to, try this episode."
I hope we get more Starcraft 2 and Strategy than Soap opera next week =/.
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On May 04 2011 18:09 Medrea wrote:http://i.imgur.com/FVhM9.pngWas posted earlier but I don't think it got enough attention, check it out. It shows how the game has evolved and how everything is very very quickly reaching an equilibrium as the data set is expanded and time is allowed for self correction. Also it currently shows Zerg ahead of protoss in PvZ as of late.
Ive been posting this in quite a few forums where players are screaming imbalance, i wish more people would aknowledge this interesting set of data 
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On May 04 2011 18:14 zeru wrote:
It's like, Idra wants a way to 100% defend or a way to get perfect information against a player taking a risk/coin flip to get ahead but he doesn't want to take any risk himself. It would be pretty unfair and pointless if that was possible.
I also agree with day9s argument that discussing balance shouldn't be venting and can't be done the way idra wants it to, i kind of just facepalmed at idra during the whole day9 vs idra thing.
Idra just wants a way to scout and react to whatever your opponent is doing, as opposed to flipping a coin and hoping you guessed correct.
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EPT
