EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 932
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
resilve
United Kingdom678 Posts
| ||
|
SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
lol and then it came! | ||
|
Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote: How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? It blows my mind that people like you exist. In the PvT, observers can be in your opponents base at like the 6 minute mark. How can you argue the fact that Z does not have the same scouting opportunities? The 3 races all have different information at a different point in the game and there are situations when a scan is more favorable than an obs and a changeling and situations where creep tumors spot things faster than a terran would without randomly scanning the parameter. (Not arugeing for any race right now) But the races definitely do not have the same ways and opportunities to scout. | ||
|
VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
- Day9 is afraid to admit to himself that the game just might not be perfect - Nony knows he's wrong, but is too cocky to admit it in public - InControl was perfect and gets me gayer each time I watch him | ||
|
Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:37 Sephimos wrote: You're completely missing the corollary. It's not just that it's impossible for Z to scout (it is) it's that they also die incredibly easily to stuff that they can't scout. The opposite is not true. Even if the Protoss doesn't scout the Zerg especially well, a 3-gate expand doesn't really easily die to anything before the 6-7 minute mark, especially anything that isn't an insane all-in. Zerg's can totally die to weird void ray cheeses or gateway timings in the same time frame. So, Zerg can't scout, and they don't have a build that reacts reasonably well to all the Terran or Protoss's possible builds. This is a bullshit scenario for Zerg, because it means they have to both guess and react perfectly to whatever they think it is their opponent MIGHT be doing. So if they guess slightly wrong, they will basically get behind economically, or take massive damage from a cheese. This is IdrA's point, and it's completely correct. This is why a Zerg of greater skill will often lose to a Terran or Protoss of lesser skill, because they have this massive information deficit, which will often cripple them in one way or another for the mid and late game. On May 04 2011 15:37 Dfgj wrote: I didn't say he was wrong. Take another look at what I wrote. Just that the way he poses his statement is what leads to people not taking him fully seriously. I'm not arguing balance in the slightest, I'm bringing up a point as to why SotG discussion tends to be, well, trolly. Your whole post misses that. | ||
|
Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:37 Dfgj wrote: I didn't say he was wrong. Take another look at what I wrote. Just that the way he poses his statement is what leads to people not taking him fully seriously. The problem is that nobody takes any zerg seriously when they complain. Not Ret, machine, haypro, nor Sen. EVEN MORROW, an ex terran player. They tell him "learn to play more aggressive, etc" Even Fruit Dealer and NesTea complained, also ignored. | ||
|
Zeri
United States773 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The way I see it is that Colbi's statement was factually and objectively true. If, later on in time, details were to be discussed and there was to be elaboration on the subject (like, for instance, on SotG), so be it. However, he didn't give a personal opinion or say anything more than what he was supposed to. People had been asking from the very beginning why Liquid hadn't been invited. Colbi's reply was as short and neutral as possible, and provided clarity to the question of whether or not Liquid was actually invited, period. Truth is not what is important here. yes he said what is true. what is important is how will the certain truths you present be interpreted and what inferences will they cause? Will those inferences be close to what ACTUALLY happened? Now with that in mind. Think about the neutrality of the inferences from the statement "TL was invited but declined due to unresolvable server issues" <-- That is WAY more neutral. Its not about the truth of the statement (of course what he said was true). But will it lead to incorrect inferences? and is there a more fair way of saying it? These are the issues here. | ||
|
kytten
United States163 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:36 Theo wrote: IdrA and Day9 Tyler and Geoff You guys need to....Fuck it out. Just fuck it out guys. You'll feel alot better. <3 ...But Idra would be cheating on Machine then! That would be terrible! ...Threesome? :O | ||
|
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
As far as the whole Tyler -- Incontrol thing: Tyler said things that had no backing up and Incontrol made him look stupid for it. Is that right? I dunno, not my place to call. The fact that they were discussing that in a public forum, however, should have been an immediate alarm that this was definitely not the correct place to be holding this discussion. This is a private matter between the two teams that should be kept between the two teams. I mean if that wasn't enough to suggest it was a good idea to back off than I'd hope the clear uneasiness of everyone else on SoTG should have been some sort of indication. | ||
|
Syphon8
Canada298 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I 80% failed at expressing what I was trying to say. My message was somewhere in there When Geoff brought up the thing about you having your own agenda for Stride you should've said, "And I quote, 'If you don't give a fuck about the gum you chew'" You were 100% right. And weren't being hypocritical at all. You don't have any secret agenda, you don't mislead people. You're not going around saying "Stride gum is the best gum. Period" on the forum, you're saying "Chew Stride gum, it makes me money." It boggles my mind that Incontrol was on a University debate team. He's... So fucking bad at debating. | ||
|
Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote: 1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base. 2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path 3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting. 4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base. 5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base. A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. | ||
|
L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:39 SmoKim wrote: please post as soon as the the show is on bliptv  my poor F5 is close to breaking soon o.oi posted it earlier, but here it is again. http://itmejp.blip.tv/file/5101881/ | ||
|
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
| ||
|
skycaptain
United States101 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:29 Raiznhell wrote: I hate how hypocritical Tyler is being lately, just a few SotG's ago he was talking about winning and losing scenarios and how Zerg should lose once Toss gets that insane Deathball comparing it to Terran Mech play in BW where when Terran is maxed and at 3:3 that should be their victory. Yet when it's TvP in SCII and Terran maxes out on upgraded Thors Hellions and sends some SCVs to repair that shouldn't be a winning scenario for Terran. Toss should be able to instantly break that down by spamming Feedback on an army it takes a whole game to assemble. He didn't say it was overpowered or that Protoss *ought* to be able to just spam feedback to beat the strategy. All he said was that he had trouble with the strategy and he might need a lot of time to figure out a solution. I don't see how that could be construed as hypocritical AT ALL. All you're doing right now is projecting. | ||
|
Badred
Canada129 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:37 StUfF wrote: + Show Spoiler + A good percentage of people felt like there was a negative spin/connotation/PR in his response. He probably should have not said anything (wait for TL to respond), responded with all the details or basically said it it wouldn't be appropriate for them to speak on behalf of TL to why they declined. I think my big issue with Tyler's complaint about this whole thing is based on HIS first response to Colbi, which was "Liquid showed interest, but EG chose not to accommodate us." How is that any different (in terms of vagueness) from Colbi's original response? I'd say it's a statement that could be taken to be either neutral or negative just like Colbi's could be. It doesn't provide the whole story, which is what Tyler spent a large portion of tonight's SotG complaining about. It's felt a little hypocritical, to be honest. | ||
|
Pebbz
United States84 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote: Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it. 1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting.. Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem. | ||
|
Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:41 Mailing wrote: The problem is that nobody takes any zerg seriously when they complain. Not Ret, machine, haypro, nor Sen. Even Fruit Dealer and NesTea complained, also ignored. Ya I think that's more because of how people see Zerg complaints than because the points brought up lack merit. Firstly you have every race complaining about their race (many Zergs, many Protosses during the early GSL period like Genius, even MVP for T), and then there's such saturation of Zergs complaining that the opposite effect occurs - people stop paying attention to it. | ||
|
TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:41 Mailing wrote: The problem is that nobody takes any zerg seriously when they complain. Not Ret, machine, haypro, nor Sen. EVEN MORROW, an ex terran player. They tell him "learn to play more aggressive, etc" Even Fruit Dealer and NesTea complained, also ignored. Nobody took MVP that seriously when he complained about T being underpowered either-they laughed him off, was my general impression from that thread. On May 04 2011 15:41 mastergriggy wrote: This might seem somewhat off topic, but why the hell did Idra decided to change to Zerg if all he is gonna do is whine about how bad they are all the time? I'm not talking about right now, but at the start (not to mention the fact that he can easily have gotten to the same master had he switched after Zerg got "bad"). I believe IdrA is semi-on record with saying that he looked at the game and decided that Zerg was the race that would most reward his superior mechanics and give him the ability to grind out long, macro games where he could systematically gain advantages. Don't quote me on that, though. | ||
|
BluePabs
United States317 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:41 Syphon8 wrote: When Geoff brought up the thing about you having your own agenda for Stride you should've said, "And I quote, 'If you don't give a fuck about the gum you chew'" You were 100% right. And weren't being hypocritical at all. You don't have any secret agenda, you don't mislead people. You're not going around saying "Stride gum is the best gum. Period" on the forum, you're saying "Chew Stride gum, it makes me money." It boggles my mind that Incontrol was on a University debate team. He's... So fucking bad at debating. Yup, because this was a structured debate with rules and time limits like a real debate competition. Glad you were able to ascertain his accurate debate skill level. Good Job. | ||
|
Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:41 Syphon8 wrote: It boggles my mind that Incontrol was on a University debate team. He's... So fucking bad at debating. He's good at dodging the issue. If you can do that successfully, and the masses or judges buy it, then as a result you are in fact a good debater. That's how politicians keep their jobs for so long. As is often the case in the real world, he who is full of shit is usually more practised in convincing others that they are right. Those who are true and pure don't tend to get involved so much in the arts of deception. | ||
| ||
