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On May 04 2011 15:50 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:47 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions. and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well Yeah, but every protoss scouting option is a heavily investment, you get that? If zerg is the reactionary race as you say, maybe they should change their playstyle from "i need to know what my enemy is doing" to creating builds that make them safe from anything while not falling behind in economy? Protoss did the same with 3 gate sentry expand into hallucination. And LoL @ zerg should have the best scouting, how are you going to beat them? You can ask every high level zerg, if they know what coming they can deflect ANYTHING with ease and be so much ahead that it's impossible to lose if you're not a total noob.
Yes, P scouting options also cost a lot and take investment, but P also requires less adjustment to adapt to situations, especially early on. If SC2 was about 'ways to instantly die to things that suddenly appeared', Z>P(>T) every day.
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Can someone please link me to the latest ep37 Mp3? I can't find it.
Thanks in advance 
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On May 04 2011 15:40 VIB wrote:
- Idra was right about imbalance, but wasn't able to put his thoughts into words as well as he wanted
- Day9 is afraid to admit to himself that the game just might not be perfect
- Nony knows he's wrong, but is too cocky to admit it in public
- InControl was perfect and gets me gayer each time I watch him
In a single post you managed to capture 100 percent of what I completely disagree with. It is like you are trolling me specifically! Bravo to you sir.
- In a way, Idra is right, but it turns out he wasn't actually talking about imbalance he was talking about game design. I thought most people were of the opinion that we don't know enough to make definitive balance statements, yet IdrA believes he can (rather he thinks it should be discussed as fact rather than be up for debate). Time will prove out on this, so I think all one can do here is wait and see. "Seek first to understand before you try to be understood."
- Day9 is afraid of nothing. Take that back. The guy drinks bear semen for Christ's sake.
- Nony aka Tyler knows he failed to make his point and admitted as much here in this thread. Your assessment is unfair and inaccurate given how honest and open he was here right after the debate/debacle.
- iNcontrol paid little respect to the facts of the discusion, attempted to turn portions of statements against Tyler and used agressive profaine laungage not to justify, but to intimidate. I don't find those appealing qualities. I think you will find that this will make you the sub + bottom in your gay fantasy if this is what you look for in a man. Not saying this is bad, as everyone has their own taste...
**FYI: I am using some humor and nuance for parts of my reply. I'll let you decide where I have applied it, however.
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On May 04 2011 15:50 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:45 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:41 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Essentia wrote:On May 04 2011 15:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight. Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race. He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot. Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way. uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game. So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair. I didn't say he was wrong. Take another look at what I wrote. Just that the way he poses his statement is what leads to people not taking him fully seriously. The problem is that nobody takes any zerg seriously when they complain. Not Ret, machine, haypro, nor Sen. EVEN MORROW, an ex terran player. They tell him "learn to play more aggressive, etc" Even Fruit Dealer and NesTea complained, also ignored. Well I think the problem is that it's hard decipher whining from actual complaint Zerg complaint - Two bunkers are the bottom of the ramp is too strong, too hard to hold off for how easy it is to execute. Terran - You are whining (notice this word), there is nothing wrong, pull more drones, learn to beat it. This happens every time idra opens his mouth. They don't even consider what he says might be too strong. A month or two passes, and what happens? A patch comes out and that 2 bunker block is gone. Terran are still doing fine, zerg are now more often able to survive the early game. Obviously not everything idra says is true and a lot is exaggerated, but no, not everything is "whine or zerg QQ"
I don't understand, are you just talking about people from teamliquid?
if so, okay, but I don't see how that's unique to the zergs. Watch how what MVP said was received. (LOL HE MUST BE OUT OF HIS MIND)
and if you're talking about blizzard, a source would be nice...
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On May 04 2011 15:48 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:43 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:
[quote]
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist. Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it. 1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting.. Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem. How the fuck is any of that an argument against Z having the same scouting opportunities as T and P? You think T and P can get in each other's base and know exactly what's going on? What applies to Z applies to everyone else. It's just that Z builds are currently more fragile than everyone else's builds. The point Idra is making is that this fragility requires Z to have perfect scouting. Which is exactly what I said.
Observers? In PvT, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Terran is doing by the 7 minute mark. In PvZ, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Zerg is doing around the 8 minute mark.
Terran has scans. While it has economic ramifications, it is still quite effective.
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I think Tyler was completely right about the PR thing. Being a forum this is a place of discussion. If a discussion takes place based on incomplete information then its bullshit. What Colbi said was technically true but it was phrased in a negative manner and it was incomplete information. Without further qualifying Colbi's explanation it makes Liquid look like a bunch of stuck up pricks, which is absolutely not the case.
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On May 04 2011 15:51 Sephimos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:41 Syphon8 wrote:On May 04 2011 14:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I 80% failed at expressing what I was trying to say. My message was somewhere in there When Geoff brought up the thing about you having your own agenda for Stride you should've said, "And I quote, 'If you don't give a fuck about the gum you chew'" You were 100% right. And weren't being hypocritical at all. You don't have any secret agenda, you don't mislead people. You're not going around saying "Stride gum is the best gum. Period" on the forum, you're saying "Chew Stride gum, it makes me money." It boggles my mind that Incontrol was on a University debate team. He's... So fucking bad at debating. By Tyler's own logic, he would have to say every time, every interview "I advise you to chew Stride gum. Not because I do, I like Wrigley, but because they give me some money to say so". Anything else is "deceptive", and "not explaining everything". Also, people don't get to insert their pet meaning into Colbi's statement. "We invited Liquid, they chose not to attend" is a completely neutral statement. If someone can't process that, it's their own issue.
No, by his own logic, Tyler would NOT go into a gum flavor enthusiast thread and say "you should get stride" You can't really give a good corollary as you are comparing apples and oranges with personal sponsorships. Tyler addressed it on the show.
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On May 04 2011 15:48 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:43 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:
[quote]
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist. Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it. 1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting.. Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem. How the fuck is any of that an argument against Z having the same scouting opportunities as T and P? You think T and P can get in each other's base and know exactly what's going on? What applies to Z applies to everyone else. It's just that Z builds are currently more fragile than everyone else's builds. The point Idra is making is that this fragility requires Z to have perfect scouting. Which is exactly what I said.
I'm sorry but that made me chuckle scan is literally exactly that. Protoss don't have a super great scouting option until halluc or obs. but they also have builds that pretty much hold up against everything, like Idra was saying.
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On May 04 2011 15:51 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:49 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:47 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions. and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well I, and others, have already addressed the hallucination point. And getting real phoenixes and observers are both "major" decisions. You don't just drop a robo and go back to 4 gating. what scouting do you need to do when youre 4gating lol If you are 4gating the onus is on the other player to adapt to the aggression. you dont need to scout when you 4gate.
No shit? Well guess what, 4 gate is a coin flip. Because if you 4 gate against someone who is prepared against it you basically lose. It's no different than a Zerg roach ling all-in that fails and then they lose. Idra is pissed that he can be beaten by coin flips which is the whole reason for his rant against Day9 on SOTG. But as Tyler pointed out, it's not just Zerg who has to deal with coin flips. 3 gate expand isn't safe against many builds - Idra simply refuses to acknowledge it because every time Protoss loses he just calls the player bad.
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On May 04 2011 15:50 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:45 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:41 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Essentia wrote:On May 04 2011 15:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight. Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race. He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot. Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way. uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game. So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair. I didn't say he was wrong. Take another look at what I wrote. Just that the way he poses his statement is what leads to people not taking him fully seriously. The problem is that nobody takes any zerg seriously when they complain. Not Ret, machine, haypro, nor Sen. EVEN MORROW, an ex terran player. They tell him "learn to play more aggressive, etc" Even Fruit Dealer and NesTea complained, also ignored. Well I think the problem is that it's hard decipher whining from actual complaint Zerg complaint - Two bunkers are the bottom of the ramp is too strong, too hard to hold off for how easy it is to execute. Terran - You are whining (notice this word), there is nothing wrong, pull more drones, learn to beat it. This happens every time idra opens his mouth. They don't even consider what he says might be too strong. A month or two passes, and what happens? A patch comes out and that 2 bunker block is gone. Terran are still doing fine, zerg are now more often able to survive the early game. Obviously not everything idra says is true and a lot is exaggerated, but no, not everything is "whine or zerg QQ"
doesn't mean everything he says is correct either....
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On May 04 2011 15:54 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:48 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:43 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist. Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it. 1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting.. Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem. How the fuck is any of that an argument against Z having the same scouting opportunities as T and P? You think T and P can get in each other's base and know exactly what's going on? What applies to Z applies to everyone else. It's just that Z builds are currently more fragile than everyone else's builds. The point Idra is making is that this fragility requires Z to have perfect scouting. Which is exactly what I said. Observers? In PvT, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Terran is doing by the 7 minute mark. In PvZ, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Zerg is doing around the 8 minute mark. Terran has scans. While it has economic ramifications, it is still quite effective.
Hilarious. You realize by the time a robo is down the Protoss has already committed to his tech path for the mid-game? And you realize a scan is a coin flip because only idiots hide their buildings at obvious scan locations? Any tactic used to deny overlord scouting can also be used to deny scan scouting.
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So Idra said Zerg is the defensive race tonight. I'm just curious, because if this is true, and I don't mean to say it is or it isn't, why don't they play like it? I just don't see Zerg's playing defensive. This doesn't mean I see them playing aggressive either. Quite frankly I see them doing neither. I see them trapped in the middle.
If Zerg is the defensive race, I expect more spines and more queens. Look at Spanishiwa. Don't take this as he is the best Zerg ever and knows everything. But he has had a lot of success with his style. Is it a coincidence that he produces more queens and spines and he is winning a lot of games? I don't think so. And I think it goes past the fact that it is a new style of play that people aren't used to.
So if Zerg is truly the defensive race, then why aren't more players playing defensive?
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On May 04 2011 15:54 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:48 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:43 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist. Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it. 1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting.. Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem. How the fuck is any of that an argument against Z having the same scouting opportunities as T and P? You think T and P can get in each other's base and know exactly what's going on? What applies to Z applies to everyone else. It's just that Z builds are currently more fragile than everyone else's builds. The point Idra is making is that this fragility requires Z to have perfect scouting. Which is exactly what I said. Observers? In PvT, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Terran is doing by the 7 minute mark. In PvZ, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Zerg is doing around the 8 minute mark. Terran has scans. While it has economic ramifications, it is still quite effective.
But when you combine detection with observers...Protoss don't have a guarantee to know exactly what is going on. Heck, there are some builds (the 2rax --> sky terran) that rely on ravens/thors to disguise what is actually going on, and can be quite effective provided you know times and have a keen eye. If the Zerg morphs an overseer at their natural to be safe, they can do the same (and often do in games I see high level zergs play).
All scouting is somewhat limited, that's part of the game. Scans, for example, have a locked in area (that may actually too big, and that's coming from a Terran haha). Anything outside that and you're screwed unless you drop more.
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On May 04 2011 15:56 AKcommie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:48 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:43 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist. Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it. 1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting.. Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem. How the fuck is any of that an argument against Z having the same scouting opportunities as T and P? You think T and P can get in each other's base and know exactly what's going on? What applies to Z applies to everyone else. It's just that Z builds are currently more fragile than everyone else's builds. The point Idra is making is that this fragility requires Z to have perfect scouting. Which is exactly what I said. I'm sorry but that made me chuckle scan is literally exactly that. Protoss don't have a super great scouting option until halluc or obs. but they also have builds that pretty much hold up against everything, like Idra was saying. [/b][/b][/b][/b]
like what?
i mean zerg also has builds that can hold up against anything, the problem at the hand is that they're very inefficient & put you behind far. To my knowledge toss builds that can hold anything are also inefficient & put you behind far if the expected strategies do not come in..
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On May 04 2011 15:49 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:34 Essentia wrote:On May 04 2011 15:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight. Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race. He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot. Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way. uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game. So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair. I don't really understand why Zergs feel they are so incredibly reactive. Want to stop Air tech blindly. build ONE Spore Crawler near the minerals lines of your main and Nat. Terran have to do the same thing practically every time they face a Zerg because GUARANTEED there's gunna be either Mutas, burrowed Infestors or if the Zerg is weird burrowed Roaches. Practically everything I do is reactive to Zerg in TvZ. I 2 rax because he's gunna 14 hatch. I bunker up and wallin with a crap load of buildings because of Zergling runbys and Baneling busts. I build crap loads of Turrets so I don't lose all my SCVs to Mutas. I make Tanks because he's gunna have a crap load more units than me so i need some sort of splash. Like I don't get how Zerg is the "reactive race" when pretty much everything you do in SCII regardless of the races is going to be a reaction to the action of your opponent even if it's on offensive reaction like say trying to rush a fast expander. Besides Terran scans are never wasted that early on because we need the MULES just to keep up with the other races in the early game. We scout the same way a Zerg should be able to scout with a worker looking all over the map for hidden things and doing pokes at the front. by the time we actually scan for tech a Zerg should probably have an overlord in the opponents base. =/ And saying that the overlord can be killed is poitnless because a scan can equally be fooled and wasted. Overlord costs 100 mins, MULE costs 300.
To also expand on my earlier point and as Geoff noted. IdrA has always whined about his race even in BW. He played Terran and Terran has the most bonjwas and Protoss has NONE. If Idra wanted some lessons on TvP he shoulda watched Flash with his 71+% victory rate against Protoss.....
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I think JP should consider at least playing somewhat of a host/moderator role when these debates happen. The Day9 and idrA bit was excusable because it sort of sparked on its own. However, the whole team league ordeal was even on the show's agenda, and not to be critical of JP, but it's obvious the subsequent discussion between Geoff and Tyler would be heated; and it's not in the greatest taste to let them just go at it without at least some kind of host/moderator element keeping things in track.
The first 30min-1hour or so were great, though. Geoff and Machine were especially humorous and provided a lot of comic relief (kind of weird saying that for a podcast). I guess it just leaves a lot to be desired with such a loaded cast and most of the time devoted to other things. Also, the cameo by Nick was awesome and I hope he doesn't get turned off by the atmosphere of the show tonight and comes back often.
I hate to go into the arguments but, they should not have been as heated and serious as they were. I actually don't remember why or how the Day9 and idrA thing began or why it lasted as long as it did, but I feel like Sean wasn't intending to provoke a response, but idrA took it the wrong way. Not to blame Greg or anything, but he was more combative than usual. Who knows, maybe it was the alcohol.
I know the whole episode was very impromptu, but it would've been cool so see some kind of Zerg vs Protoss debate with idra and machine vs incontrol and tyler, and Nick and Sean putting their thoughts in in general.
Great podcast and many thanks as always to JP and everyone involved, but hoping to see a bit less intensity next cast or just some kind of order in any future debates.
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On May 04 2011 15:54 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:48 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:43 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist. Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it. 1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting.. Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem. How the fuck is any of that an argument against Z having the same scouting opportunities as T and P? You think T and P can get in each other's base and know exactly what's going on? What applies to Z applies to everyone else. It's just that Z builds are currently more fragile than everyone else's builds. The point Idra is making is that this fragility requires Z to have perfect scouting. Which is exactly what I said. Observers? In PvT, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Terran is doing by the 7 minute mark. In PvZ, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Zerg is doing around the 8 minute mark. Terran has scans. While it has economic ramifications, it is still quite effective.
And if terran opens for an economy greedy opening you are infinitely behind as protoss if you go for observers. You sacrified safety against economy.
Zerg can surely do the same if they search for those options, 100%.
In PvZ protoss has to do the same. 3 gate sentry expand is never on equal economy foot than a zerg going for hatch first for example or a greedy speedling opening.
Protoss sacrified safety against economy.
On May 04 2011 15:52 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:50 Elefanto wrote:On May 04 2011 15:47 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions. and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well Yeah, but every protoss scouting option is a heavily investment, you get that? If zerg is the reactionary race as you say, maybe they should change their playstyle from "i need to know what my enemy is doing" to creating builds that make them safe from anything while not falling behind in economy? Protoss did the same with 3 gate sentry expand into hallucination. And LoL @ zerg should have the best scouting, how are you going to beat them? You can ask every high level zerg, if they know what coming they can deflect ANYTHING with ease and be so much ahead that it's impossible to lose if you're not a total noob. Yes, P scouting options also cost a lot and take investment, but P also requires less adjustment to adapt to situations, especially early on. If SC2 was about 'ways to instantly die to things that suddenly appeared', Z>P(>T) every day.
Maybe zergs are using risky builds to get an edge in the economy.
Maybe there are builds for zergs that let them gain more safety and sacrifice an edge in economy
and let them be on equal footing or slightly behind?
We can't say right now, but it may be possible.
Spanishiwas style seems to hint at that.
Zergs, especially idra, want everything at once.
Starcraft is a game about limited information, learn to deal with the consequences.
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On May 04 2011 15:49 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:34 Essentia wrote:On May 04 2011 15:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight. Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race. He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot. Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way. uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game. So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair. I don't really understand why Zergs feel they are so incredibly reactive. Want to stop Air tech blindly. build ONE Spore Crawler near the minerals lines of your main and Nat. Terran have to do the same thing practically every time they face a Zerg because GUARANTEED there's gunna be either Mutas, burrowed Infestors or if the Zerg is weird burrowed Roaches. Practically everything I do is reactive to Zerg in TvZ. I 2 rax because he's gunna 14 hatch. I bunker up and wallin with a crap load of buildings because of Zergling runbys and Baneling busts. I build crap loads of Turrets so I don't lose all my SCVs to Mutas. I make Tanks because he's gunna have a crap load more units than me so i need some sort of splash. Like I don't get how Zerg is the "reactive race" when pretty much everything you do in SCII regardless of the races is going to be a reaction to the action of your opponent even if it's on offensive reaction like say trying to rush a fast expander. Besides Terran scans are never wasted that early on because we need the MULES just to keep up with the other races in the early game. We scout the same way a Zerg should be able to scout with a worker looking all over the map for hidden things and doing pokes at the front. by the time we actually scan for tech a Zerg should probably have an overlord in the opponents base. =/ And saying that the overlord can be killed is poitnless because a scan can equally be fooled and wasted. Overlord costs 100 mins, MULE costs 300.
Going to address this point by point. Zerg is considered the reactive race because their build is based off of your build. Mutas will not likely come out if a Terran goes mass Marine/No Tank, for example. Not all Zergs 14 hatch, Bunkers are free. Well, they won't be soon, but for now, still free. Spore crawlers require, effectively, four larva to create (Two drones, two drones to replace those two on the mineral line). Four larva can't be frittered away earlygame.
Workers can't get past a wallin. Zerg physically cannot wallin until they're spreading creep. Doing this with anything but an excess queen means losing four larva, which again, is a terrible idea. Overlords die to marines easily, and quickly. Oh, and they can be fooled just as easily as a scan, but scans can't be killed. You're guaranteed a large field of vision. This field requires more than four overlords to attain, costing more minerals and more importantly, more larva. Oh, and this is paid upfront as opposed to over a period of mining time.
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On May 04 2011 15:50 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:47 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions. and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well Yeah, but every protoss scouting option is a heavily investment, you get that? If zerg is the reactionary race as you say, maybe they should change their playstyle from "i need to know what my enemy is doing" to creating builds that make them safe from anything while not falling behind in economy? Protoss did the same with 3 gate sentry expand into hallucination. And LoL @ zerg should have the best scouting, how are you going to beat them? You can ask every high level zerg, if they know what coming they can deflect ANYTHING with ease and be so much ahead that it's impossible to lose if you're not a total noob.
thats the problem, you simply cant have a build as zerg that is safe from everything and doesnt fall behind in economy. If there was such a build, then zergs would use it, but its physically impossible to do such a build, it doesnt exist.
and no protoss scouting is not a heavy investment, halluc costs 100/100, hows that expensive? for the information gained its an amazing investment, free scouting all game? yes please! and an observer isnt an investment either, you will prob be getting a robo at some point with almost every build anyway, from their its 25/75, which is next to nothing for how useful they are.
And dont take what i say to the extreme, having the best scouting doesnt mean they would always know what is coming. i agree if zergs had an effective MH for scouting, they wouldnt lose, but NO ONE is saying they should have that....
also dont talk down to me with this "you get that" crap
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On May 04 2011 15:54 Zeri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:51 Sephimos wrote:On May 04 2011 15:41 Syphon8 wrote:On May 04 2011 14:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I 80% failed at expressing what I was trying to say. My message was somewhere in there When Geoff brought up the thing about you having your own agenda for Stride you should've said, "And I quote, 'If you don't give a fuck about the gum you chew'" You were 100% right. And weren't being hypocritical at all. You don't have any secret agenda, you don't mislead people. You're not going around saying "Stride gum is the best gum. Period" on the forum, you're saying "Chew Stride gum, it makes me money." It boggles my mind that Incontrol was on a University debate team. He's... So fucking bad at debating. By Tyler's own logic, he would have to say every time, every interview "I advise you to chew Stride gum. Not because I do, I like Wrigley, but because they give me some money to say so". Anything else is "deceptive", and "not explaining everything". Also, people don't get to insert their pet meaning into Colbi's statement. "We invited Liquid, they chose not to attend" is a completely neutral statement. If someone can't process that, it's their own issue. No, by his own logic, Tyler would NOT go into a gum flavor enthusiast thread and say "you should get stride" You can't really give a good corollary as you are comparing apples and oranges with personal sponsorships. Tyler addressed it on the show.
He didn't address it at all. Incontrol pressed him on his sudden fascination with full disclosure and honesty, and Tyler fell apart because he has no fucking point. If Tyler is now the internet arbiter of justice and truth, I want to hear what he really thinks of all of his sponsors. I want to hear how many TLAF apps he uses, daily, I want to hear how much Stride he chews and why, I want to hear everything about everything, because otherwise he's just a shill selling out the man and towing the line, yo.
Tyler wanted to play Team Liquid pit bull and be an internet tough guy on the forums, and EG decided to play it classy, even going to length to say how much they respected TL as an organization. Even then saying they would consider server swapping in the next tournament, as TL suggested. Tyler didn't have a leg to stand on. Incontrol and Idra repeatedly questioned him on the issue, and he kept falling back on "i feel, i feel" giving no justification for his offensive treatment of Colbi and Scoots, who are doing the community an enormous service by hosting a huge tournament with an innovative format.
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