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On May 04 2011 16:02 Sephimos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:54 Zeri wrote:On May 04 2011 15:51 Sephimos wrote:On May 04 2011 15:41 Syphon8 wrote:On May 04 2011 14:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I 80% failed at expressing what I was trying to say. My message was somewhere in there When Geoff brought up the thing about you having your own agenda for Stride you should've said, "And I quote, 'If you don't give a fuck about the gum you chew'" You were 100% right. And weren't being hypocritical at all. You don't have any secret agenda, you don't mislead people. You're not going around saying "Stride gum is the best gum. Period" on the forum, you're saying "Chew Stride gum, it makes me money." It boggles my mind that Incontrol was on a University debate team. He's... So fucking bad at debating. By Tyler's own logic, he would have to say every time, every interview "I advise you to chew Stride gum. Not because I do, I like Wrigley, but because they give me some money to say so". Anything else is "deceptive", and "not explaining everything". Also, people don't get to insert their pet meaning into Colbi's statement. "We invited Liquid, they chose not to attend" is a completely neutral statement. If someone can't process that, it's their own issue. No, by his own logic, Tyler would NOT go into a gum flavor enthusiast thread and say "you should get stride" You can't really give a good corollary as you are comparing apples and oranges with personal sponsorships. Tyler addressed it on the show. He didn't address it at all. Incontrol pressed him on his sudden fascination with full disclosure and honesty, and Tyler fell apart because he has no fucking point. If Tyler is now the internet arbiter of justice and truth, I want to hear what he really thinks of all of his sponsors. I want to hear how many TLAF apps he uses, daily, I want to hear how much Stride he chews and why, I want to hear everything about everything, because otherwise he's just a shill selling out the man and towing the line, yo. Tyler wanted to play Team Liquid pit bull and be an internet tough guy on the forums, and EG decided to play it classy, even going to length to say how much they respected TL as an organization. Even then saying they would consider server swapping in the next tournament, as TL suggested. Tyler didn't have a leg to stand on. Incontrol and Idra repeatedly questioned him on the issue, and he kept falling back on "i feel, i feel" giving no justification for his offensive treatment of Colbi and Scoots, who are doing the community an enormous service by hosting a huge tournament with an innovative format.
Thank you for this. I would also like to mention that, to me, when iNcontrol started getting loud and cursing at Tyler, it really seemed friendly. It was clear to me that they were two friends discussing/arguing about something they are both very passionate about, and Tyler making no sense most of the time and wasting time.
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On May 04 2011 16:05 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:00 Ihpares wrote:On May 04 2011 15:49 Raiznhell wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Essentia wrote:On May 04 2011 15:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight. Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race. He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot. Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way. uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game. So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair. I don't really understand why Zergs feel they are so incredibly reactive. Want to stop Air tech blindly. build ONE Spore Crawler near the minerals lines of your main and Nat. Terran have to do the same thing practically every time they face a Zerg because GUARANTEED there's gunna be either Mutas, burrowed Infestors or if the Zerg is weird burrowed Roaches. Practically everything I do is reactive to Zerg in TvZ. I 2 rax because he's gunna 14 hatch. I bunker up and wallin with a crap load of buildings because of Zergling runbys and Baneling busts. I build crap loads of Turrets so I don't lose all my SCVs to Mutas. I make Tanks because he's gunna have a crap load more units than me so i need some sort of splash. Like I don't get how Zerg is the "reactive race" when pretty much everything you do in SCII regardless of the races is going to be a reaction to the action of your opponent even if it's on offensive reaction like say trying to rush a fast expander. Besides Terran scans are never wasted that early on because we need the MULES just to keep up with the other races in the early game. We scout the same way a Zerg should be able to scout with a worker looking all over the map for hidden things and doing pokes at the front. by the time we actually scan for tech a Zerg should probably have an overlord in the opponents base. =/ And saying that the overlord can be killed is poitnless because a scan can equally be fooled and wasted. Overlord costs 100 mins, MULE costs 300. Going to address this point by point. Zerg is considered the reactive race because their build is based off of your build. Mutas will not likely come out if a Terran goes mass Marine/No Tank, for example. Not all Zergs 14 hatch, Bunkers are free. Well, they won't be soon, but for now, still free. Spore crawlers require, effectively, four larva to create (Two drones, two drones to replace those two on the mineral line). Four larva can't be frittered away earlygame. Workers can't get past a wallin. Zerg physically cannot wallin until they're spreading creep. Doing this with anything but an excess queen means losing four larva, which again, is a terrible idea. Overlords die to marines easily, and quickly. Oh, and they can be fooled just as easily as a scan, but scans can't be killed. You're guaranteed a large field of vision. This field requires more than four overlords to attain, costing more minerals and more importantly, more larva. Oh, and this is paid upfront as opposed to over a period of mining time. btw, bunkers aren't free, it takes scvs to build them which means loss of mining time not that it's important but it seems every zerg forgets about that  and I have no idea how a spore crawler takes 4 larva to create, unless you're including evo chamber as well... but that's like saying a turret takes 225 minerals + scvs not mining for the duration of building the ebay and turret. No, a turret costs 100 minerals + the mining time just for the turret. and zerg physically cannot wall in but once lings+queens are out all scouting by worker is cut off pretty. Not sure how you're equating 4 overlords sight to a scan. I'm not disagreeing entirely with what Idra was saying but your post just has a lot of wrong points...
I was ignoring mining time as that could be taken out of all three races (Less so for Protoss, but I'll give them a break).
Evo chamber that early in the game is just going to sit and be wasted, and thus should not be built UNLESS it's absolutely needed. By the time the EBay is actually needed (For muta harass), one should be out to start working on upgrades anyway as you're already in the mid-late game. Lings can be outrun before speed, and by the time speed is out, scan is available. The potential to scout is present. Scans radius is humongous, all I'm saying there. In order to get that coverage, you'd need 3-4 overlords.
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On May 04 2011 16:06 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:03 Creep wrote:On May 04 2011 15:49 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:47 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions. and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well I, and others, have already addressed the hallucination point. And getting real phoenixes and observers are both "major" decisions. You don't just drop a robo and go back to 4 gating. Why would you 4gate every game? I'm pretty sure robo tech is standard for Protoss, isn't it? The only time I can think of when a Protoss DOESN'T make a robo against Z is when they do that Void Ray/Phoenix thing really early and go for the Queens. Even then, if that doesn't win you the game automatically (because the Zerg can't scout it unless they get lucky with their slow Overlords) you're going to have to make a robo eventually to get Colossus or Immortals or you are going to lose. Robo is definitely NOT a major decision to get or not to get. Hallucination maybe, but it's cheaper than sending two or three Overlords to die just so you can see whats in the Protoss base. You already have the Cyber, the only thing stopping you from getting Hallucination is that you don't want to spend 100/100 after you get Warpgates. Which is a pretty silly thing to say when you expect Zerg to suicide Overlords (which are also used for Supply, mind you) every time they want to see what you're making. The bit about hallucination kinda applies to Zerg, too. 100/100 is exactly how much overlord speed costs, it researches faster than Hallucination (absent chrono boost, about the same with boost I think) and you don't have to suicide overlords if you have speed unless they have really good reaction and very high stalker numbers (which is worth 100 mins to find out, probably). It's also in a tech path you absolutely have to get.
I agree that the Hallucination and Observer speed are very very similar, but what about the Robo thing? When have you not seen a Protoss make a robo against a Zerg (or Terran for that matter)? Like I said, the only time you see that is when Protoss do that VR/Phoenix opening thing to harass extremely early and they win right then and there. They always make the robo right after eventually.
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On May 04 2011 16:02 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:51 Sephimos wrote:Also, people don't get to insert their pet meaning into Colbi's statement. "We invited Liquid, they chose not to attend" is a completely neutral statement. If someone can't process that, it's their own issue. Colbi's response may have been sufficient for EG to be in the clear, but at the same time left TL with little to no graceful way to pick it up from there. At the very least, a sensible PR person should know the code of conduct between business partners.
i agree with your post and said the similar thing a page or 2 back. But also remember colbi is probably a sensible pr person. They are competing brands. So using wording to promote his brand is very smart. Because look at the outcome tyler looks like ass, tyler is a representative of tl so it makes tl look bad(partly), and he comes off scott free(for the most part).
Which is why im not a fan of eg, they're shady and do alot of shaddy shit to push their brand. When other brands are actually about the community
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On May 04 2011 16:00 Ihpares wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:49 Raiznhell wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Essentia wrote:On May 04 2011 15:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight. Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race. He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot. Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way. uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game. So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair. I don't really understand why Zergs feel they are so incredibly reactive. Want to stop Air tech blindly. build ONE Spore Crawler near the minerals lines of your main and Nat. Terran have to do the same thing practically every time they face a Zerg because GUARANTEED there's gunna be either Mutas, burrowed Infestors or if the Zerg is weird burrowed Roaches. Practically everything I do is reactive to Zerg in TvZ. I 2 rax because he's gunna 14 hatch. I bunker up and wallin with a crap load of buildings because of Zergling runbys and Baneling busts. I build crap loads of Turrets so I don't lose all my SCVs to Mutas. I make Tanks because he's gunna have a crap load more units than me so i need some sort of splash. Like I don't get how Zerg is the "reactive race" when pretty much everything you do in SCII regardless of the races is going to be a reaction to the action of your opponent even if it's on offensive reaction like say trying to rush a fast expander. Besides Terran scans are never wasted that early on because we need the MULES just to keep up with the other races in the early game. We scout the same way a Zerg should be able to scout with a worker looking all over the map for hidden things and doing pokes at the front. by the time we actually scan for tech a Zerg should probably have an overlord in the opponents base. =/ And saying that the overlord can be killed is poitnless because a scan can equally be fooled and wasted. Overlord costs 100 mins, MULE costs 300. Going to address this point by point. Zerg is considered the reactive race because their build is based off of your build. Mutas will not likely come out if a Terran goes mass Marine/No Tank, for example. Not all Zergs 14 hatch, Bunkers are free. Well, they won't be soon, but for now, still free. Spore crawlers require, effectively, four larva to create (Two drones, two drones to replace those two on the mineral line). Four larva can't be frittered away earlygame. Workers can't get past a wallin. Zerg physically cannot wallin until they're spreading creep. Doing this with anything but an excess queen means losing four larva, which again, is a terrible idea. Overlords die to marines easily, and quickly. Oh, and they can be fooled just as easily as a scan, but scans can't be killed. You're guaranteed a large field of vision. This field requires more than four overlords to attain, costing more minerals and more importantly, more larva. Oh, and this is paid upfront as opposed to over a period of mining time.
Going to address this point by point. So what's the reaction involved in the 14 hatch builds? Also all Terran and Protoss builds are in there own right a reaction to whatever Zerg may be doing. So you'd rather lose the game instead of losing 4 larva? The mining time of 2 workers I don't think means that much considering Zerg is always ahead in workers anyways besides building a Turret that early costs us Terrans 200-400 minerals = 8 Marines, 4 supply depots, 2 barracks, a command centre and a bunch of other costs for the gain of safety.
A scans field of vision of not equivalent to 4 overlords so that entire point is not even a point. And 100 minerals is still more than 300.
Zerg pretty much gets not very much less scouting options than the other two races and with a unit like the Zergling that you get for 25 minerals and half a larva. Zerg has no excuse to not poke the front and see what the other player might have.
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On May 04 2011 16:08 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:54 TreDawg wrote:
I think Tyler was completely right about the PR thing. Being a forum this is a place of discussion. If a discussion takes place based on incomplete information then its bullshit. What Colbi said was technically true but it was phrased in a negative manner and it was incomplete information. Without further qualifying Colbi's explanation it makes Liquid look like a bunch of stuck up pricks, which is absolutely not the case. Actually... it was a neutral statement. It is only when people get upset over it that it looks negative. Am I seriously the only one here (regardless of which side you are on) that thinks it is ridiculous to react this much to a single sentence? I'm no longer aloud to quote it as the topic was closed for whatever reason... but this was a direct quote from Tyler if you want to look it up. "Liquid showed interest, but EG chose not to accommodate us. Ah, perspective!" - Liquid Tyler Now let me quote you. "If a discussion takes place based on incomplete information then its bullshit" "... but it was phrased in a negative manner and it was incomplete information." "Without further qualifying [Tyler's] explanation it makes [EG] look like a bunch of stuck up pricks, which is absolutely not the case." I have a few things to say here... and I will start with the last part. So I switched the roles. Now based off Tyler's response it looks like EG are some snotty greedy group of guys who doesn't want TL taking their money, so they purposely chose not to accommodate TL (based off how you interpret things). Why are people not getting angry with Tyler? Well that's because of bias. I also don't feel that people should attack Tyler for that statement, but the same thing is being done to Colbi just because it was mentioned when a notable player said it while in an emotional state. Also... the more obvious part is that what he (Tyler) said also lacked information... and if I were to look at it how you looked at Colbi's response... then I could argue that it is negative. Here is the fact. It is a single... fucking... sentence. He clearly was not trying to be a dick. Many teams and players have declined from events in the past... and guess what... we often got a "they declined" response and it wasn't a big deal. The same thing happened here... except it got attention from a very notable person so people are blowing it out of proportion. Please tell me where I am going wrong. I am not saying nit pick the small details, but address my overall argument that it is a single sentence that is being blown way out of proportion... and that he shouldn't be held so accountable for a single wording that can very easily be interpreted as neutral.
Hmm. yes. Tyler's responses in the thread were not neutral at all. this is true. But the initial point is what colbi said is NOT the most neutral statement he could have made for that situation as it does not void both parties of responsibility. There are plenty of posts explaining this in detail on the recent pages of this thread so read them. I feel all Tyler was doing was calling colbi out for (whether intentionally or not) handling the situation less than optimally for those on the TL end.
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On May 04 2011 15:52 riboflavin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:40 VIB wrote:
- Idra was right about imbalance, but wasn't able to put his thoughts into words as well as he wanted
- Day9 is afraid to admit to himself that the game just might not be perfect
- Nony knows he's wrong, but is too cocky to admit it in public
- InControl was perfect and gets me gayer each time I watch him In a single post you managed to capture 100 percent of what I completely disagree with. It is like you are trolling me specifically! Bravo to you sir. - In a way, Idra is right, but it turns out he wasn't actually talking about imbalance he was talking about game design. I thought most people were of the opinion that we don't know enough to make definitive balance statements, yet IdrA believes he can (rather he thinks it should be discussed as fact rather than be up for debate). Time will prove out on this, so I think all one can do here is wait and see. "Seek first to understand before you try to be understood."
idra wasn't right at all and day9 responded correctly. i believe tyler made a post somewhere about how idra's train of thought is flawed (the whole door analogy).
day9 was flustered because idra's response made no sense to his own. he was basically saying it will take time to decide whether zerg is underpowered or not and talking about balance issues now doesn't help the race progress. to which idra responds yeah but zerg is underpowered right now, you have no solution therefore it will always be underpowered. and day9 goes yeah but if it really is underpowered the progression of the game will show it aka his whole balancing metagame thing. idra responds that it is underpowered NOW and day9 has no solution NOW therefore it is imbalanced.
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On May 04 2011 15:59 djcube wrote:
I think JP should consider at least playing somewhat of a host/moderator role when these debates happen. The Day9 and idrA bit was excusable because it sort of sparked on its own. However, the whole team league ordeal was even on the show's agenda, and not to be critical of JP, but it's obvious the subsequent discussion between Geoff and Tyler would be heated; and it's not in the greatest taste to let them just go at it without at least some kind of host/moderator element keeping things in track.
I second this. It would be nice to see JP play more of a moderator role and move the show on when arguments stagnate, and before they become personal. I think both of the major arguments tonight could of been stopped 2/3 of the way though without loosing much (though, I did like Tyler's perspective on the balance discussion). Not an easy role for JP to play, but I think he is up to the task.
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On May 04 2011 16:00 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:54 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:48 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:43 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:
[quote]
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist. Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it. 1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting.. Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem. How the fuck is any of that an argument against Z having the same scouting opportunities as T and P? You think T and P can get in each other's base and know exactly what's going on? What applies to Z applies to everyone else. It's just that Z builds are currently more fragile than everyone else's builds. The point Idra is making is that this fragility requires Z to have perfect scouting. Which is exactly what I said. Observers? In PvT, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Terran is doing by the 7 minute mark. In PvZ, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Zerg is doing around the 8 minute mark. Terran has scans. While it has economic ramifications, it is still quite effective. And if terran opens for an economy greedy opening you are infinitely behind as protoss if you go for observers. You sacrified safety against economy. Zerg can surely do the same if they search for those options, 100%. In PvZ protoss has to do the same. 3 gate sentry expand is never on equal economy foot than a zerg going for hatch first for example or a greedy speedling opening. Protoss sacrified safety against economy.
All those decisions are made from the information a probe gathers. It's not imperative you slam down a robo when you see a Terran not take gas. As for a Zerg 15 hatch, we already see how that can be easily adjusted/abused.
Only a novice player goes into a game, does his "safe" build, and not react to what he sees when scouting with the initial probe.
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On May 04 2011 16:04 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:00 Elefanto wrote:On May 04 2011 15:54 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:48 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:43 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
Le sigh.
Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing.
By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist. Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it. 1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting.. Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem. How the fuck is any of that an argument against Z having the same scouting opportunities as T and P? You think T and P can get in each other's base and know exactly what's going on? What applies to Z applies to everyone else. It's just that Z builds are currently more fragile than everyone else's builds. The point Idra is making is that this fragility requires Z to have perfect scouting. Which is exactly what I said. Observers? In PvT, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Terran is doing by the 7 minute mark. In PvZ, a Protoss can know EXACTLY what a Zerg is doing around the 8 minute mark. Terran has scans. While it has economic ramifications, it is still quite effective. And if terran opens for an economy greedy opening you are infinitely behind as protoss if you go for observers. You sacrified safety against economy. Zerg can surely do the same if they search for those options, 100%. In PvZ protoss has to do the same. 3 gate sentry expand is never on equal economy foot than a zerg going for hatch first for example or a greedy speedling opening. Protoss sacrified safety against economy. On May 04 2011 15:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:50 Elefanto wrote:On May 04 2011 15:47 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions. and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well Yeah, but every protoss scouting option is a heavily investment, you get that? If zerg is the reactionary race as you say, maybe they should change their playstyle from "i need to know what my enemy is doing" to creating builds that make them safe from anything while not falling behind in economy? Protoss did the same with 3 gate sentry expand into hallucination. And LoL @ zerg should have the best scouting, how are you going to beat them? You can ask every high level zerg, if they know what coming they can deflect ANYTHING with ease and be so much ahead that it's impossible to lose if you're not a total noob. Yes, P scouting options also cost a lot and take investment, but P also requires less adjustment to adapt to situations, especially early on. If SC2 was about 'ways to instantly die to things that suddenly appeared', Z>P(>T) every day. Maybe zergs are using risky builds to get an edge in the economy. Maybe there are builds for zergs that let them gain more safety and sacrifice an edge in economy and let them be on equal footing or slightly behind? We can't say right now, but it may be possible. Spanishiwas style seems to hint at that. Zergs, especially idra, want everything at once. Starcraft is a game about limited information, learn to deal with the consequences. Yes, it's a game about limited information, but games aren't either 'limited' or 'total' information. SCBW was also a game of limited information, but you were a lot less prone to instant death. The question is whether that is a good or bad thing. Personally I think SC2 can be a little too knife-edged, it's too easy to just instantly win with one attack that wasn't perfectly prepared for, or one hidden building that wasn't scouted. I agree with a number of IdrA's points, and I agree with the points in your post, and don't think this is mutually exclusive - Z's a little weak in terms of being reactive in the earlygame because there's more to punish, but risky builds should give edges. How much of an edge is the issue. I don't think any of that is necessarily in disagreement with day9's view, which is 'let's keep working at things and see what develops.'
Yeah, i think we can agree on these points. Sometimes Sc2 feels really really volatile.
But most of the time it comes down to them beeing one player choosing to take a bigger risk and dying cause of it. It's true, in bw you didn't right away, but you were so far behind, it was most of the time impossible to win these games, hands down.
But its more a point of the game design in Sc2, not about balancing imo.
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On May 04 2011 16:11 _civ_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:59 djcube wrote:
I think JP should consider at least playing somewhat of a host/moderator role when these debates happen. The Day9 and idrA bit was excusable because it sort of sparked on its own. However, the whole team league ordeal was even on the show's agenda, and not to be critical of JP, but it's obvious the subsequent discussion between Geoff and Tyler would be heated; and it's not in the greatest taste to let them just go at it without at least some kind of host/moderator element keeping things in track.
I second this. It would be nice to see JP play more of a moderator role and move the show on when arguments stagnate, and before they become personal. I think both of the major arguments tonight could of been stopped 2/3 of the way though without loosing much (though, I did like Tyler's perspective on the balance discussion). Not an easy role for JP to play, but I think he is up to the task.
Yeah totally. All the points were made in both arguments and nothing new was shared after a certain point. JP shoulda moved along.
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for the people who just got up and are waiting for the podcast, its up @ itmejp.blip.tv
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On May 04 2011 16:09 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:04 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:49 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:47 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions. and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well I, and others, have already addressed the hallucination point. And getting real phoenixes and observers are both "major" decisions. You don't just drop a robo and go back to 4 gating. Are you telling me you need complete scouting info when you're doing an all-in? Isn't that what Idra is saying, at least partly? The correct response to many greed builds from Terran and Protoss is to do an all-in attack, but in order to do this Idra feels like he has to know that the opponent is going these greed builds, which is not what happens when a Protoss 4-gates or a Terran marine SCV all-ins. No, they're gambling. So is it unfair when Zerg has to do the same?
ummmm what? no. just no.
The correct response, or at least one correct response (sometimes an all in is an option but but by no means a necessity), to a greed build (i assume you mean an eco build)
Also a zerg can scout a greed/eco build, speedlings will be able to see when an expo is taken etc. Its when a player walls in and you dont know what tech or build he is doing that you are in trouble. i dont think thats what idra was saying, even partly, at all.
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On May 04 2011 16:02 Sephimos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:54 Zeri wrote:On May 04 2011 15:51 Sephimos wrote:On May 04 2011 15:41 Syphon8 wrote:On May 04 2011 14:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I 80% failed at expressing what I was trying to say. My message was somewhere in there When Geoff brought up the thing about you having your own agenda for Stride you should've said, "And I quote, 'If you don't give a fuck about the gum you chew'" You were 100% right. And weren't being hypocritical at all. You don't have any secret agenda, you don't mislead people. You're not going around saying "Stride gum is the best gum. Period" on the forum, you're saying "Chew Stride gum, it makes me money." It boggles my mind that Incontrol was on a University debate team. He's... So fucking bad at debating. By Tyler's own logic, he would have to say every time, every interview "I advise you to chew Stride gum. Not because I do, I like Wrigley, but because they give me some money to say so". Anything else is "deceptive", and "not explaining everything". Also, people don't get to insert their pet meaning into Colbi's statement. "We invited Liquid, they chose not to attend" is a completely neutral statement. If someone can't process that, it's their own issue. No, by his own logic, Tyler would NOT go into a gum flavor enthusiast thread and say "you should get stride" You can't really give a good corollary as you are comparing apples and oranges with personal sponsorships. Tyler addressed it on the show. He didn't address it at all. Incontrol pressed him on his sudden fascination with full disclosure and honesty, and Tyler fell apart because he has no fucking point. If Tyler is now the internet arbiter of justice and truth, I want to hear what he really thinks of all of his sponsors. I want to hear how many TLAF apps he uses, daily, I want to hear how much Stride he chews and why, I want to hear everything about everything, because otherwise he's just a shill selling out the man and towing the line, yo. Tyler wanted to play Team Liquid pit bull and be an internet tough guy on the forums, and EG decided to play it classy, even going to length to say how much they respected TL as an organization. Even then saying they would consider server swapping in the next tournament, as TL suggested. Tyler didn't have a leg to stand on. Incontrol and Idra repeatedly questioned him on the issue, and he kept falling back on "i feel, i feel" giving no justification for his offensive treatment of Colbi and Scoots, who are doing the community an enormous service by hosting a huge tournament with an innovative format.
No. Tyler did address it when talking about steelseries keyboards. go watch the vod. the rest not worth discussing with you. you are clearly deluded, and the points have been made over and over in this thread. feel free to PM if you want an explanation. I have shit to do so I'll procrastinate by telling you why you are so incredibly far from anything factual.
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On May 04 2011 16:10 Creep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:06 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 04 2011 16:03 Creep wrote:On May 04 2011 15:49 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:47 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions. and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well I, and others, have already addressed the hallucination point. And getting real phoenixes and observers are both "major" decisions. You don't just drop a robo and go back to 4 gating. Why would you 4gate every game? I'm pretty sure robo tech is standard for Protoss, isn't it? The only time I can think of when a Protoss DOESN'T make a robo against Z is when they do that Void Ray/Phoenix thing really early and go for the Queens. Even then, if that doesn't win you the game automatically (because the Zerg can't scout it unless they get lucky with their slow Overlords) you're going to have to make a robo eventually to get Colossus or Immortals or you are going to lose. Robo is definitely NOT a major decision to get or not to get. Hallucination maybe, but it's cheaper than sending two or three Overlords to die just so you can see whats in the Protoss base. You already have the Cyber, the only thing stopping you from getting Hallucination is that you don't want to spend 100/100 after you get Warpgates. Which is a pretty silly thing to say when you expect Zerg to suicide Overlords (which are also used for Supply, mind you) every time they want to see what you're making. The bit about hallucination kinda applies to Zerg, too. 100/100 is exactly how much overlord speed costs, it researches faster than Hallucination (absent chrono boost, about the same with boost I think) and you don't have to suicide overlords if you have speed unless they have really good reaction and very high stalker numbers (which is worth 100 mins to find out, probably). It's also in a tech path you absolutely have to get. I agree that the Hallucination and Observer speed are very very similar, but what about the Robo thing? When have you not seen a Protoss make a robo against a Zerg (or Terran for that matter)? Like I said, the only time you see that is when Protoss do that VR/Phoenix opening thing to harass extremely early and they win right then and there. They always make the robo right after eventually.
That's why I specifically said "the bit about hallucination" in my post  . I'm honestly not that up to date with the PvZ matchup right now, but from games I watch the standard on macro maps is FE --> Stargate ---> Robo. That scouting information of that build is very good, but comes at the price of vulnerability to things like early Roach/Hydra attacks (why they eventually have to make the robo).
In PvT, the robo fades in and out of popularity versus those double forges. In both matchups they almost have to be constantly producing Colossi after a certain point, so random observer snipes are huge as agents against P scouting.
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On May 04 2011 16:04 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:49 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:47 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them! You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race. Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions. and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well I, and others, have already addressed the hallucination point. And getting real phoenixes and observers are both "major" decisions. You don't just drop a robo and go back to 4 gating. Are you telling me you need complete scouting info when you're doing an all-in?
Way to be a complete moron and miss the point of his post.
The point he was trying to make that whichever build the toss choses to go (4 gate being an example for a build), he is pigeonholed into making a robot in order to stay safe. For example he cant afford to open straight twilight council into chargelot/HT, or risk dying to a straight up cloaked banshees.
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On May 04 2011 16:10 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:02 rotegirte wrote:On May 04 2011 15:51 Sephimos wrote:Also, people don't get to insert their pet meaning into Colbi's statement. "We invited Liquid, they chose not to attend" is a completely neutral statement. If someone can't process that, it's their own issue. Colbi's response may have been sufficient for EG to be in the clear, but at the same time left TL with little to no graceful way to pick it up from there. At the very least, a sensible PR person should know the code of conduct between business partners. i agree with your post and said the similar thing a page or 2 back. But also remember colbi is probably a sensible pr person. They are competing brands. So using wording to promote his brand is very smart. Because look at the outcome tyler looks like ass, tyler is a representative of tl so it makes tl look bad(partly), and he comes off scott free(for the most part).
EG definitely could have been more forthcoming, but Tyler's response brought it to a new level of negativity. The first was a neutral PR response that omitted some information in a way that some view as shady. Tyler's response pushed his frustration and anger overtly into the spotlight, and explicitly made EG's statement seem like it was a premeditated post to make TL look bad.
All in all, it mostly looks like a bunch of people got up on the wrong side of the bed several mornings in a row.
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On May 04 2011 16:11 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:52 riboflavin wrote:On May 04 2011 15:40 VIB wrote:
- Idra was right about imbalance, but wasn't able to put his thoughts into words as well as he wanted
- Day9 is afraid to admit to himself that the game just might not be perfect
- Nony knows he's wrong, but is too cocky to admit it in public
- InControl was perfect and gets me gayer each time I watch him In a single post you managed to capture 100 percent of what I completely disagree with. It is like you are trolling me specifically! Bravo to you sir. - In a way, Idra is right, but it turns out he wasn't actually talking about imbalance he was talking about game design. I thought most people were of the opinion that we don't know enough to make definitive balance statements, yet IdrA believes he can (rather he thinks it should be discussed as fact rather than be up for debate). Time will prove out on this, so I think all one can do here is wait and see. "Seek first to understand before you try to be understood."
idra wasn't right at all and day9 responded correctly. i believe tyler made a post somewhere about how idra's train of thought is flawed (the whole door analogy). day9 was flustered because idra's response made no sense to his own. he was basically saying it will take time to decide whether zerg is underpowered or not and talking about balance issues now doesn't help the race progress. to which idra responds yeah but zerg is underpowered right now, you have no solution therefore it will always be underpowered. and day9 goes yeah but if it really is underpowered the progression of the game will show it aka his whole balancing metagame thing. idra responds that it is underpowered NOW and day9 has no solution NOW therefore it is imbalanced.
I don't see it that way. I see it that IdrA's current frustrations have no visible solution. While there is that process of opening doors as Tyler so eloquently put, but IdrA says that the Zergs have a fundamental problem, which is scouting. He claims that there should either be a way for Zerg to obtain good scouting information or have a super safe, efficient opening (like 3gate expand) that can keep them alive and push it to the midgame.
IdrA sees the former option to be impossible, he only turns to the other option and that is why I believe he asked Day9 for a suggestion. But who's anyone kidding? IdrA knew Day9 had no response for that question because, quite simply, Day9 doesn't play SC2 enough.
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On May 04 2011 16:05 flowSthead wrote:
Day9 correctly pointed out that the better player is the one that wins..
You just wrote a novel, but I stopped here.
It's this simple people - in any game where the participants are not given an exact level playing field, then poor game design can inaccurately produce results. Stating that "winning" in a non-equal environment somehow implies "better" violates so many laws of logic that no one should take anything else you say seriously.
Until Day9 starts to acknowledge the concept of game design and doesn't continually fallback to the "the game is so young, we don't know anything yet" company line, nothing he says concerning balance or "the state of the game" can be taken seriously by anyone with a high functioning reasoning skills. This doesn't mean idra is right, it just means Day9 is 100% wrong on his winning=better premise.
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On May 04 2011 16:13 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:11 _civ_ wrote:On May 04 2011 15:59 djcube wrote:
I think JP should consider at least playing somewhat of a host/moderator role when these debates happen. The Day9 and idrA bit was excusable because it sort of sparked on its own. However, the whole team league ordeal was even on the show's agenda, and not to be critical of JP, but it's obvious the subsequent discussion between Geoff and Tyler would be heated; and it's not in the greatest taste to let them just go at it without at least some kind of host/moderator element keeping things in track.
I second this. It would be nice to see JP play more of a moderator role and move the show on when arguments stagnate, and before they become personal. I think both of the major arguments tonight could of been stopped 2/3 of the way though without loosing much (though, I did like Tyler's perspective on the balance discussion). Not an easy role for JP to play, but I think he is up to the task. Yeah totally. All the points were made in both arguments and nothing new was shared after a certain point. JP shoulda moved along.
JP said he felt this conversation needed to happen, which is why he didn't end it sooner than he did. You want to let them talk to try and see if it gets to some resolution point. JP may have let it go on a little too long, but at the same time he doesn't want to cut either off. Its a sticky situation and there isn't a great way to deal with it.
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EPT
