On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote: I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout". "I don't know that I agree" "So, how can they scout?" "Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight.
Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race.
He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot.
Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way.
uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game.
So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair.
I didn't say he was wrong. Take another look at what I wrote.
Just that the way he poses his statement is what leads to people not taking him fully seriously.
The problem is that nobody takes any zerg seriously when they complain. Not Ret, machine, haypro, nor Sen.
EVEN MORROW, an ex terran player. They tell him "learn to play more aggressive, etc"
Even Fruit Dealer and NesTea complained, also ignored.
Well I think the problem is that it's hard to decipher whining from actual complaint
On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote: he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly.
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
Le sigh.
Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing.
By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments.
Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed.
Actually, strictly speaking from a time perspective, lair + overlord speed takes as long as warpgate research alone to finish (unchronoboosted). The total time for Lair+ovie speed is 140 seconds, while warp gate+hallucinate is 220 seconds (soon to be 240 seconds). I'm fairly sure that's longer than lair + hallucinate, even if you only chrono'd the core.
The costs are different (250/200 vs. 150/150), I suppose, but you also don't need 100 energy form a sentry to use ovie speed and you don't need a 50/100 gas unit.
I guess I just would like to know what you mean by "less" here?
I don't think people are quite understanding the problem correctly. Zerg are the REACTIVE race, yes? This means they must react to what their opponent is going to throw at them - their unit decision is based entirely off of what their opponent is doing. In ZvP, this really isn't so bad, as there are a limited number of viable choices for the protoss to go (Forge FE, 4-gate, or some kind of early-pressure 3/2-gate FE build). These limited choices are all countered by pretty much the same things, mass lings/roaches, and in the case of a fast expand, apply pressure.
It's not quite the same in ZvT. Hellions, an early tank push, thor drop rush, early marine drops, Hellion harass, 3-gate allins, these all require vastly different responses on the part of the Zerg. And scouting is necessary, but nigh impossible in this situation. This leads to a lot of problems.
I mean, think about it, it's sad when Terran can scout more effectively, and with nearly the same price by flying over a BARRACKS into their opponents base as a Zerg can by sacrificing an overlord. And Zerg can barely hit air early game.
As for the argument between Ovie Speed versus Hallucination, I honestly don't know why people would opt not to rush for lair, other than that you need the minerals to expand to maintain an equal footing, and you need the hatchery for queens in case of an air rush in the first place. Fast speed-ovies are worthless if all they scout is voidrays or banshees coming at you.
On May 04 2011 15:42 syllogism wrote: There should be a whole episode dedicated to discussing the word "metagame" so everyone in this can stop using it or alternatively so we can have a 50 page debate/derail about it
Every time someone misuses the word "metagame", Chill ages 10 extra years.
I think he's turning 5002037 years old next month.
On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote: he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly.
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
Le sigh.
Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing.
By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments.
Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed.
Actually, strictly speaking from a time perspective, lair + overlord speed takes as long as warpgate research alone to finish (unchronoboosted). The total time for Lair+ovie speed is 140 seconds, while warp gate+hallucinate is 220 seconds (soon to be 240 seconds). I'm fairly sure that's longer than lair + hallucinate, even if you only chrono'd the core.
The costs are different (250/200 vs. 150/150), I suppose, but you also don't need 100 energy form a sentry to use ovie speed and you don't need a 50/100 gas unit.
I guess I just would like to know what you mean by "less" here?
I don't think people are quite understanding the problem correctly. Zerg are the REACTIVE race, yes? This means they must react to what their opponent is going to throw at them - their unit decision is based entirely off of what their opponent is doing. In ZvP, this really isn't so bad, as there are a limited number of viable choices for the protoss to go (Forge FE, 4-gate, or some kind of early-pressure 3/2-gate FE build). These limited choices are all countered by pretty much the same things, mass lings/roaches, and in the case of a fast expand, apply pressure.
It's not quite the same in ZvT. Hellions, an early tank push, thor drop rush, early marine drops, Hellion harass, 3-gate allins, these all require vastly different responses on the part of the Zerg. And scouting is necessary, but nigh impossible in this situation. This leads to a lot of problems.
I mean, think about it, it's sad when Terran can scout more effectively, and with nearly the same price by flying over a BARRACKS into their opponents base as a Zerg can by sacrificing an overlord. And Zerg can barely hit air early game.
As for the argument between Ovie Speed versus Hallucination, I honestly don't know why people would opt not to rush for lair, other than that you need the minerals to expand to maintain an equal footing, and you need the hatchery for queens in case of an air rush in the first place. Fast speed-ovies are worthless if all they scout is voidrays or banshees coming at you.
For the record that post was independent of ease of zerg scouting, I was just wondering how hallucination takes "less" than Ovie Speed.
On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote: 1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base. 2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path 3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting. 4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base. 5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them!
You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race.
Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions.
and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true
Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well
On May 04 2011 15:41 mastergriggy wrote: This might seem somewhat off topic, but why the hell did Idra decided to change to Zerg if all he is gonna do is whine about how bad they are all the time? I'm not talking about right now, but at the start (not to mention the fact that he can easily have gotten to the same master had he switched after Zerg got "bad").
I believe he said it was because him and Artosis talked about it, and both decided Zerg was going to be the best race.
Looking at things now though, Artosis switched to Protoss and IdrA just gets mad all the time. Either IdrA has a higher tolerance than Artosis, or (like Incontrol was implying on SOTG) IdrA just likes to play the UP race like he did in BW (Terran).
On May 04 2011 15:42 syllogism wrote: There should be a whole episode dedicated to discussing the word "metagame" so everyone in this can stop using it or alternatively so we can have a 50 page debate/derail about it
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
Le sigh.
Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing.
By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments.
Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed.
1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords
the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting
How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist.
Because they do.
You have:
1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.?
Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting?
Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it.
1. Speedlings - While you can get information from what units the protoss is making, a lot of guesswork is involved 2. Overlords - Look at Crossfire and tell me how the hell you can get an overlord in. 3. Too late. 4. If you scout with creep, I don't know how you exist. 5. That is not scouting..
Zerg has no definite way of scouting until Lair tech. To all the one base all-ins that currently happen, that is a huge problem.
How the fuck is any of that an argument against Z having the same scouting opportunities as T and P? You think T and P can get in each other's base and know exactly what's going on? What applies to Z applies to everyone else. It's just that Z builds are currently more fragile than everyone else's builds. The point Idra is making is that this fragility requires Z to have perfect scouting. Which is exactly what I said.
On May 04 2011 14:21 trias_e wrote: Tyler is in the right, but doing a poor job of explaining it.
I think that, he's on the right line on a moral point of view but i think it's really hard to articulate it.
Yeah.
Colbi is representing EG. EG invited Liquid and Liquid declines for X reason. All Colbi says is that Liquid declined.
That is not the same as Liquid declined for X reason. So in reality, Colbi is lying and giving off false perceptions.
I think the entire discussion about Stride Gum/Hot Bid or whatever is weird and maybe not important at all. It's basically the same thing, except with gum and HB the incentive is monetary, whereas with Colbi the monetary incentive to lie is non-existent, so leaving out the comment about Liquid can only come from two places: A) Colbi does not want Liquid to look good and B) Colbi wants EG to look good.
Yes those are the only two possibilities...... -_-
Tyler's position (and he did get heated, which he admitted to be wrong in a weird convoluted way) is that Colbi should have just given the whole story, because the only reasons not to were hostile to the TEAM team liquid, which in turn, damage the very income of the SITE team liquid, upon which Colbi is ironically posting this.
TL;DR - Colbi is intentionally leaving out part of a story which makes TL look bad on the TL forums, and Tyler dont take no shit from that fucking kid yo
What makes you so certain that Colbi intentionally left that part out? It was probably just carelessness, not being deceptive.
Tyler's response to Colbi was childish. And his defense in being immature is literally "I'm somebody, Colbi is nobody" Please.
Thats exactlys colbis job. Is to make his brand look better then everyone elses and make everyone elses bad. Pr people just dont make random responses without thought behind it.
And that wasnt tylers response. His response was poorly presented and picked apart by someone who was trained to do just that. EG is known through any game to do anything to push their brand ahead no matter who it affects
No it was tyler's response. He said "I'm somebody because I have 5000+ posts, Colbi is nobody because he's an outsider" That's not an exact quote but he said something to that effect. And apparently he called Colbi "pathetic" in one of his posts also.
All in all, whether you think Colbi was intentionally being deceptive or just doing his job, the fact of the matter is that Tyler has been very childish during the whole thing.
i dont disagree tyler was being childish. And imo players should shut their mouth when it comes to shit like this imo(being a ex manager for a medium sized old cs team) because players get emotional and pr people wont. They will work off that and make you look like a fool and pick you apart(ie incontrol having the same emotionless expression on his face through the debate...while tyler was visably getting more upset).
But i think intially colbi was in the wrong, it was up to the team to explain why they were not attending a event. Not up to the event. If it was any other team who wasnt attending the event organizers wouldnt have given a explanation but they know tl is massive, so they need to spin it in their favor before their event is shown negatively by not working with the biggest na team to come to a compromise.
I don't get this at all. They post about a tournament on the team liquid site and posters were within the first posts asking why the team liquid wasn't in it. Colbi made a post that did in no way explain why they didn't attend the event, I don't know where you have got that idea from. How exactly did he spin it in any direction with his first post?
He did kind of explain it tho. His wording was pretty clear. "We invited Team Liquid, and they chose not to attend" is misleading and spin. If he said "We invited Team Liquid, and because of a irreconcilable difference they chose not to attend" is typical pr bullshit response that doesnt put a negative light on any side but you still answer the question but dont say anything. The first response is more of a hey we offered but they didnt want to, not our fault.
If you look at dana white for example(he is known for not giving the best pr answers) when people were on him to get fedor into the league for a looooooong time he was like me and his management are having differences in the contract and cant come to terms. Which is unusual for dana to be so neutral, usually he speaks his mind. But he relizes when talking about a relationship you want to keep healthy you dont say anything that can be seen as putting a bad light on the other person. Like the "they chose not attend" comment did because people were like right away "wtf why not, thats dumb"
.....now that being said after a month of hounding for a answer he called fedors managers morons etc and started to promote his league and try to damage the fedor brand after he relized a agreement wasnt going to be met.
On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote: I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout". "I don't know that I agree" "So, how can they scout?" "Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight.
Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race.
He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot.
Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way.
uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game.
So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair.
I don't really understand why Zergs feel they are so incredibly reactive. Want to stop Air tech blindly. build ONE Spore Crawler near the minerals lines of your main and Nat. Terran have to do the same thing practically every time they face a Zerg because GUARANTEED there's gunna be either Mutas, burrowed Infestors or if the Zerg is weird burrowed Roaches.
Practically everything I do is reactive to Zerg in TvZ. I 2 rax because he's gunna 14 hatch. I bunker up and wallin with a crap load of buildings because of Zergling runbys and Baneling busts. I build crap loads of Turrets so I don't lose all my SCVs to Mutas. I make Tanks because he's gunna have a crap load more units than me so i need some sort of splash. Like I don't get how Zerg is the "reactive race" when pretty much everything you do in SCII regardless of the races is going to be a reaction to the action of your opponent even if it's on offensive reaction like say trying to rush a fast expander.
Besides Terran scans are never wasted that early on because we need the MULES just to keep up with the other races in the early game. We scout the same way a Zerg should be able to scout with a worker looking all over the map for hidden things and doing pokes at the front. by the time we actually scan for tech a Zerg should probably have an overlord in the opponents base. =/
And saying that the overlord can be killed is poitnless because a scan can equally be fooled and wasted. Overlord costs 100 mins, MULE costs 300.
On May 04 2011 15:26 iNcontroL wrote: talk about me more plz!!!!!!!!!
No need to get defensive and sour here. People legitimately are trying to figure out what other people think about these issues. There is a lot of miscommunication and some people genuinely want to know if certain wording provides for unnecessarily negative connotations and if so how do we avoid these? Getting heated is not something that needs to be going on. I'm a huge fan of yours and lines like that make me question what your goals are...
If you believe its all silly and doesn't matter and everyones just raging and picking sides on the internet thats completely fine too. I just don't see any point other than self serving and I really want to see another motive for your post (if it is indeed to show us that we are all just being stupid just let us know <3)
On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote: 1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base. 2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path 3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting. 4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base. 5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them!
You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race.
Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions.
and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true
Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well
I, and others, have already addressed the hallucination point. And getting real phoenixes and observers are both "major" decisions. You don't just drop a robo and go back to 4 gating.
On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote: 1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base. 2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path 3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting. 4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base. 5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them!
You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race.
Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions.
and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true
Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well
Yeah, but every protoss scouting option is a heavily investment, you get that? If zerg is the reactionary race as you say, maybe they should change their playstyle from "i need to know what my enemy is doing" to creating builds that make them safe from anything while not falling behind in economy? Protoss did the same with 3 gate sentry expand into hallucination.
And LoL @ zerg should have the best scouting, how are you going to beat them? You can ask every high level zerg, if they know what coming they can deflect ANYTHING with ease and be so much ahead that it's impossible to lose if you're not a total noob.
On May 04 2011 15:32 nihlon wrote: I don't get this at all. They post about a tournament on the team liquid site and posters were within the first posts asking why the team liquid wasn't in it. Colbi made a post that did in no way explain why they didn't attend the event, I don't know where you have got that idea from. How exactly did he spin it in any direction with his first post?
A good percentage of people felt like there was a negative spin/connotation/PR in his response.
He probably should have not said anything (wait for TL to respond), responded with all the details or basically said it it wouldn't be appropriate for them to speak on behalf of TL to why they declined.
I think my big issue with Tyler's complaint about this whole thing is based on HIS first response to Colbi, which was "Liquid showed interest, but EG chose not to accommodate us." How is that any different (in terms of vagueness) from Colbi's original response? I'd say it's a statement that could be taken to be either neutral or negative just like Colbi's could be. It doesn't provide the whole story, which is what Tyler spent a large portion of tonight's SotG complaining about. It's felt a little hypocritical, to be honest.
This is a pretty good point which I almost forgot about.
On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote: I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout". "I don't know that I agree" "So, how can they scout?" "Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight.
Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race.
He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot.
Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way.
uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game.
So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair.
I didn't say he was wrong. Take another look at what I wrote.
Just that the way he poses his statement is what leads to people not taking him fully seriously.
The problem is that nobody takes any zerg seriously when they complain. Not Ret, machine, haypro, nor Sen.
EVEN MORROW, an ex terran player. They tell him "learn to play more aggressive, etc"
Even Fruit Dealer and NesTea complained, also ignored.
Well I think the problem is that it's hard decipher whining from actual complaint
Zerg complaint - Two bunkers are the bottom of the ramp is too strong, too hard to hold off for how easy it is to execute.
Terran - You are whining (notice this word), there is nothing wrong, pull more drones, learn to beat it.
This happens every time idra opens his mouth. They don't even consider what he says might be too strong. A month or two passes, and what happens? A patch comes out and that 2 bunker block is gone. Terran are still doing fine, zerg are now more often able to survive the early game.
Obviously not everything idra says is true and a lot is exaggerated, but no, not everything is "whine or zerg QQ"
On May 04 2011 14:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I 80% failed at expressing what I was trying to say. My message was somewhere in there
When Geoff brought up the thing about you having your own agenda for Stride you should've said, "And I quote, 'If you don't give a fuck about the gum you chew'"
You were 100% right. And weren't being hypocritical at all. You don't have any secret agenda, you don't mislead people. You're not going around saying "Stride gum is the best gum. Period" on the forum, you're saying "Chew Stride gum, it makes me money."
It boggles my mind that Incontrol was on a University debate team. He's... So fucking bad at debating.
By Tyler's own logic, he would have to say every time, every interview "I advise you to chew Stride gum. Not because I do, I like Wrigley, but because they give me some money to say so". Anything else is "deceptive", and "not explaining everything".
Also, people don't get to insert their pet meaning into Colbi's statement. "We invited Liquid, they chose not to attend" is a completely neutral statement. If someone can't process that, it's their own issue.
On May 04 2011 15:39 L3g3nd_ wrote: 1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base. 2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path 3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting. 4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base. 5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them!
You're arguing a completely different point. Read what I was responding to. The guy was arguing that Zerg can't scout as well as Protoss and Terran. I'm sorry, but a Terran doing 7 rax can deny Protoss scouting as well as he can deny Zerg scouting. And while Terrans have scans, you can hide your buildings from scans just as you can hide them from overlords. It's the same story with scouting. The difference is that Idra believes that Zerg has to react perfectly whereas other races don't because Zerg is a reactive race.
Protoss has observers and hallucination, and phnx. that is great for scouting, vs zerg hallicu is standard straight after warp gate. against terran an early robo build (such as what tyler loves) gets an obs in their base fairly early, before you need to make major decisions.
and zerg is a reactive race...what idra "belives" is true
Zerg needs to drone up when their opponent is macroing, and build units when they are doing pressure. With terran and protoss you are constantly building units and workers, as zerg you build drones until either about 70 or 80, or when your opponent is going to attack you. really then zerg scouting should be the best, not the worst. IdrA is 100% right and knows the game very well
I, and others, have already addressed the hallucination point. And getting real phoenixes and observers are both "major" decisions. You don't just drop a robo and go back to 4 gating.
what scouting do you need to do when youre 4gating lol
If you are 4gating the onus is on the other player to adapt to the aggression.
On May 04 2011 15:26 iNcontroL wrote: talk about me more plz!!!!!!!!!
No need to get defensive and sour here. People legitimately are trying to figure out what other people think about these issues. There is a lot of miscommunication and some people genuinely want to know if certain wording provides for unnecessarily negative connotations and if so how do we avoid these? Getting heated is not something that needs to be going on. I'm a huge fan of yours and lines like that make me question what your goals are...
If you believe its all silly and doesn't matter and everyones just raging and picking sides on the internet thats completely fine too. I just don't see any point other than self serving and I really want to see another motive for your post (if it is indeed to show us that we are all just being stupid just let us know <3)
How did you get "defensive and sour" from that...? He's just choosing not to give these trolls and/or haters any attention.
From my perspective, if there's something good to be said about iNc, his fans will say it. No need for him to dirty his hands.
EPT
