|
On May 04 2011 15:32 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:
[quote]
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? It blows my mind that people like you exist. In the PvT, observers can be in your opponents base at like the 6 minute mark. i didnt argue shit, stop being paranoid. all i said was hallucinate is just for scouting, while overlord speed can be useful in other ways
Before obs P is generally blind as well, unless you get a bunch of sentries + hallu.
The bigger issue imo is that P doesn't have to do as much to react to something, while Z needs to really adjust production to handle various things, and thus can die if they don't have precise information. I'd rather see that aspect smoothened out slightly with better reactive options.
|
On May 04 2011 15:30 Horse...falcon wrote:from Reddit XD ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KOccs.png) Looks like you owe Anna some drinks too JP
That. Is. AWFUL.
*sigh*
|
The situation with the EG cup was handled fine..Tyler is basically mad at human nature and just wants to focus that anger on someone who is easy to vent at for frustrations that are more deep seeded. The public/community will naturally assume things all the time; being vague doesn't cause more harm (like inc/Idra said). No matter what is done, you cannot please everyone.
Oh, and I loved how "real" this show was, but I hope not every week from here on is as intense.
|
IdrA and Day9
Tyler and Geoff
You guys need to....Fuck it out. Just fuck it out guys. You'll feel alot better.
<3
|
They talked about a Sen vs Naniwa game that was supposedly epic. I missed the where and when of that game. Does someone recall what game that was?
|
On May 04 2011 15:28 StUfF wrote:I think alot of the issue comes down to how you interpreted Colbi's words. Even though he had the facts his statment of "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate." I felt had a negative connotation towards TL (especially since this is his JOB) and well withholding information is always I feel a bit shady. He only provided further facts when responding to Tyler's needling. His PR talk also tries to paint that all the EU teams agree when if you read closely they have not even been consulted. How were you affected by his response? + Show Spoiler +Poll: "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate."Neutral Response (75) 60% Negative Response (49) 39% Positive Response (2) 2% 126 total votes Your vote: "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate." (Vote): Negative Response
(Vote): Neutral Response
(Vote): Positive Response
The way I see it is that Colbi's statement was factually and objectively true. If, later on in time, details were to be discussed and there was to be elaboration on the subject (like, for instance, on SotG), so be it. However, he didn't give a personal opinion or say anything more than what he was supposed to. People had been asking from the very beginning why Liquid hadn't been invited. Colbi's reply was as short and neutral as possible, and provided clarity to the question of whether or not Liquid was actually invited, period.
|
On May 04 2011 15:34 Essentia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight. Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race. He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot. Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way. uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game. So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair.
I didn't say he was wrong. Take another look at what I wrote.
Just that the way he poses his statement is what leads to people not taking him fully seriously.
|
On May 04 2011 15:33 PeggyHill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:26 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:20 PeggyHill wrote:
Definatly still on day9's side re the balance debate. It's a very futile argument idra makes, ok so zerg have a hard time scouting early game, deal with it. Also very wrong to put day9 on the spot asking about a specific problem idra is having, no way could he come up with a solution on the spot. What's so wrong about that? While I do imagine IdrA knew Day9 had no response to that question, it still shows Day9's lack of direct involvement in the metagame of SC2. You are saying Day9 isn't involved in SC2 metagame? The man dedicates hours upon hours to the game, I'm sure he has some idea what is going on. It's just unrealistic to expect him (or anyone, even Idra) to come up with an answer on the spot like that.
Yes, he analyzes the metagame. He is literally one step behind the curve. Unless Day9 is slipping the pro players some crazy insight, I can't see how Day9 is actively affecting the metagame.
IdrA has played and analysed the game so much that all of this is second nature to him. All his frustrations are repeatedly abused and brought up, but whether not that is truly imbalanced, that's another topic. There was a reason why Tyler had to step into the balance discussion.
|
On May 04 2011 15:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight. Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race. He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot. Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way.
You're completely missing the corollary. It's not just that it's impossible for Z to scout (it is) it's that they also die incredibly easily to stuff that they can't scout. The opposite is not true. Even if the Protoss doesn't scout the Zerg especially well, a 3-gate expand doesn't really easily die to anything before the 6-7 minute mark, especially anything that isn't an insane all-in. Zerg's can totally die to weird void ray cheeses or gateway timings in the same time frame.
So, Zerg can't scout, and they don't have a build that reacts reasonably well to all the Terran or Protoss's possible builds. This is a bullshit scenario for Zerg, because it means they have to both guess and react perfectly to whatever they think it is their opponent MIGHT be doing. So if they guess slightly wrong, they will basically get behind economically, or take massive damage from a cheese. This is IdrA's point, and it's completely correct. This is why a Zerg of greater skill will often lose to a Terran or Protoss of lesser skill, because they have this massive information deficit, which will often cripple them in one way or another for the mid and late game.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2011 15:29 Raiznhell wrote:
I hate how hypocritical Tyler is being lately, just a few SotG's ago he was talking about winning and losing scenarios and how Zerg should lose once Toss gets that insane Deathball comparing it to Terran Mech play in BW where when Terran is maxed and at 3:3 that should be their victory. Yet when it's TvP in SCII and Terran maxes out on upgraded Thors Hellions and sends some SCVs to repair that shouldn't be a winning scenario for Terran. Toss should be able to instantly break that down by spamming Feedback on an army it takes a whole game to assemble.
SotG has turned into an incredibly Protoss biased show now where any concerns Terran and Zerg have are washed aside and all things Protoss related are discussed in insane detail.
SlayerS_MMA, IMLosira and STBomber are doing amazingly lately and MMA's amazing "Legend Killer" status in the GSTL were never discussed in depth but yet any boring PvP ever played is like completely broken down and analyzed.
Yeah I get there's the one off time where like Thorzain, Jinro and Idra are discussed but what about Korean players. Also iNcontroL calling IMMvp stale when he's one of two Terrans that have ever done Mech in TvP on GSL EVER I mean the guy mixes things up a lot.
I believe you have some valid points, mate. Just wanna say that.
|
On May 04 2011 15:32 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:13 Falcor wrote:On May 04 2011 15:04 happyness wrote:On May 04 2011 14:46 Falcor wrote:On May 04 2011 14:42 happyness wrote:On May 04 2011 14:30 Oreo7 wrote:On May 04 2011 14:22 TheHova wrote:On May 04 2011 14:21 trias_e wrote:
Tyler is in the right, but doing a poor job of explaining it. I think that, he's on the right line on a moral point of view but i think it's really hard to articulate it. Yeah. Colbi is representing EG. EG invited Liquid and Liquid declines for X reason. All Colbi says is that Liquid declined. That is not the same as Liquid declined for X reason. So in reality, Colbi is lying and giving off false perceptions. I think the entire discussion about Stride Gum/Hot Bid or whatever is weird and maybe not important at all. It's basically the same thing, except with gum and HB the incentive is monetary, whereas with Colbi the monetary incentive to lie is non-existent, so leaving out the comment about Liquid can only come from two places: A) Colbi does not want Liquid to look good and B) Colbi wants EG to look good. Yes those are the only two possibilities...... -_- Tyler's position (and he did get heated, which he admitted to be wrong in a weird convoluted way) is that Colbi should have just given the whole story, because the only reasons not to were hostile to the TEAM team liquid, which in turn, damage the very income of the SITE team liquid, upon which Colbi is ironically posting this.
TL;DR - Colbi is intentionally leaving out part of a story which makes TL look bad on the TL forums, and Tyler dont take no shit from that fucking kid yo What makes you so certain that Colbi intentionally left that part out? It was probably just carelessness, not being deceptive. Tyler's response to Colbi was childish. And his defense in being immature is literally "I'm somebody, Colbi is nobody" Please. Thats exactlys colbis job. Is to make his brand look better then everyone elses and make everyone elses bad. Pr people just dont make random responses without thought behind it. And that wasnt tylers response. His response was poorly presented and picked apart by someone who was trained to do just that. EG is known through any game to do anything to push their brand ahead no matter who it affects No it was tyler's response. He said "I'm somebody because I have 5000+ posts, Colbi is nobody because he's an outsider" That's not an exact quote but he said something to that effect. And apparently he called Colbi "pathetic" in one of his posts also. All in all, whether you think Colbi was intentionally being deceptive or just doing his job, the fact of the matter is that Tyler has been very childish during the whole thing. i dont disagree tyler was being childish. And imo players should shut their mouth when it comes to shit like this imo(being a ex manager for a medium sized old cs team) because players get emotional and pr people wont. They will work off that and make you look like a fool and pick you apart(ie incontrol having the same emotionless expression on his face through the debate...while tyler was visably getting more upset). But i think intially colbi was in the wrong, it was up to the team to explain why they were not attending a event. Not up to the event. If it was any other team who wasnt attending the event organizers wouldnt have given a explanation but they know tl is massive, so they need to spin it in their favor before their event is shown negatively by not working with the biggest na team to come to a compromise. I don't get this at all. They post about a tournament on the team liquid site and posters were within the first posts asking why the team liquid wasn't in it. Colbi made a post that did in no way explain why they didn't attend the event, I don't know where you have got that idea from. How exactly did he spin it in any direction with his first post?
Poll: "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate."Neutral Response (75) 60% Negative Response (49) 39% Positive Response (2) 2% 126 total votes Your vote: "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate." (Vote): Negative Response
(Vote): Neutral Response
(Vote): Positive Response
A good percentage of people felt like there was a negative spin/connotation/PR in his response.
He probably should have not said anything (wait for TL to respond), responded with all the details or basically said it it wouldn't be appropriate for them to speak on behalf of TL to why they declined.
|
On May 04 2011 15:36 KSMB wrote:
They talked about a Sen vs Naniwa game that was supposedly epic. I missed the where and when of that game. Does someone recall what game that was?
The final game of the GCPL, I believe it was. Can't track down a VOD right now, unfortunately. 
|
Hello,
Just wanted to say that the show was great. I wanted to weigh in on the two major discussions:
The Tyler and Incontrol discussion: They each had good points that they felt strongly about. One of the biggest draws of the American Starcraft scene is watching it transition from carefree gaming to high dollar professional content... these are the growing pains.
The Idra and Day9 balance discussion: I would love to hear those two (actually all of the community leaders) in a long prepared discussion on the topic. Personally, I just hope that blizzard never completely gets rid of the 'gambling' (coinflip) element of starcraft because that is a proven component in competitive and entertaining contests (kind of like going for it on 4th down in the NFL, or going all-in on a bluff in poker). I think the 'balance' of the game could be discussed in terms of the risk/reward, the viable builds, and the relative amount of skill required for each build. That being said the game is still pretty new and I'm sure there are many more builds and micro-type tricks that will be discovered for each race.
Loving it.
|
On May 04 2011 15:36 acrimoneyius wrote:
The situation with the EG cup was handled fine..Tyler is basically mad at human nature and just wants to focus that anger on someone who is easy to vent at for frustrations that are more deep seeded. The public/community will naturally assume things all the time; being vague doesn't cause more harm (like inc/Idra said). No matter what is done, you cannot please everyone.
Oh, and I loved how "real" this show was, but I hope not every week from here on is as intense.
Ugh. no. but you can do better than what colbi did. Tyler's entire point is the "TL was invited but declined" is not as neutral as "TL was invited but declined due to unresolvable time issues" The second leaves all connotation WAY more neutral that the former, and colbi should have done that.
|
On May 04 2011 15:26 iNcontroL wrote:
talk about me more plz!!!!!!!!!
If this is how you get to 26K+ posts, then I don't know how much 'cred' post count buys you these days. Tyler was almost begging for open, honest, good quality contributions -- consider that point please.
Geoff/iNcontrol, I have a direct question for you. When you look back at an accomplishment do you savor the accomplishment itself or the way in which you achieved that goal?
|
On May 04 2011 15:34 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:32 garlicface wrote:On May 04 2011 15:28 Sephimos wrote:On May 04 2011 15:23 Jiddra wrote:On May 04 2011 15:20 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 Jiddra wrote:On May 04 2011 15:13 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:09 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:05 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote:
[quote]
Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler.
Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time.
Is he intentional? No.
And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct." Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument? Do you not argue to win? Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win? It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you. Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun. Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler. But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good. When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid. Tyler was given many chanses to explain, but only repeted his strange view. What can you do, at some time you kind of must go with what the person is saying. It's not kindergarten, tyler was even planning on going to law school so he should be able to live with the fact that ha made som major mistakes and was finally shown how the logic is not working. Exactly this. Incontrol was really calm and serious, Tyler was being completely unreasonable. Colbi was not acting maliciously, he was not acting deceptively. Tyler was being a bully, for an insane reason, and was getting called out on it. His position was absurd and he got busted on it, hard. I used to really, really like Tyler. Chalk me up for the anti-fan club now. This whole thing has been a ridiculous sideshow, and he's acted like a child throughout. Wow. I agree with your first three paragraphs. In fact, Tyler would even agree with your first - he couldn't properly articulate what he wanted to say (~20 pages ago?). But to join this hypothetical "anti-fan club"? I basically just read your post as 3 body paragraphs explaining how to act mature, followed by a conclusion with the perfect example of how to act immature. hope you're not talking about me, I didn't mention no hate club or w/e
Sorry. Hm... In the midst of all these posts and replies, I got a few mixed up. Well what you posted were paragraphs 3 and 4. (I mentioned 3 body paragraphs and a conclusion. Conclusion = 4).
I can't find who posted the first 2 or where they even are now.
That post combined with yours just looked like a complete post when I quoted you, I guess.
+ After going through the posts again, I realized it was Jiddra's and then Sephimos' posts that looked like 1 complete set.
What I mistakenly saw:
Tyler was given many chanses to explain, but only repeted his strange view. What can you do, at some time you kind of must go with what the person is saying.
It's not kindergarten, tyler was even planning on going to law school so he should be able to live with the fact that ha made som major mistakes and was finally shown how the logic is not working.
Exactly this. Incontrol was really calm and serious, Tyler was being completely unreasonable. Colbi was not acting maliciously, he was not acting deceptively. Tyler was being a bully, for an insane reason, and was getting called out on it. His position was absurd and he got busted on it, hard.
I used to really, really like Tyler. Chalk me up for the anti-fan club now. This whole thing has been a ridiculous sideshow, and he's acted like a child throughout.
|
On May 04 2011 15:35 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:32 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? It blows my mind that people like you exist. In the PvT, observers can be in your opponents base at like the 6 minute mark. i didnt argue shit, stop being paranoid. all i said was hallucinate is just for scouting, while overlord speed can be useful in other ways Before obs P is generally blind as well, unless you get a bunch of sentries + hallu. The bigger issue imo is that P doesn't have to do as much to react to something, while Z needs to really adjust production to handle various things, and thus can die if they don't have precise information. I'd rather see that aspect smoothened out slightly with better reactive options.
They have queens and creep.
Queens are ridiculously good anti air, and in combination with spine crawlers, that are
movable to every location on creep where you need it, a very powerful defensive tool.
the more queens you have, the faster you can move those crawler and the more mobility gains the queen.
Queens don't eat up larva as well.
Zerg has the defensive tools.
|
On May 04 2011 15:20 PeggyHill wrote:
Definatly still on day9's side re the balance debate. It's a very futile argument idra makes, ok so zerg have a hard time scouting early game, deal with it. Also very wrong to put day9 on the spot asking about a specific problem idra is having, no way could he come up with a solution on the spot.
Personally I find it hard to scout a zerg (pvz) after he gets lings out early game, I'm only high diamond though. Thats how the game is.
One of the big thing idra doesn't understand is that in sports the 'better player' doesn't always win, that would be boring.
Also big props to day9 about the only metric we have is wins, it's pretty hard for idra to talk about zerg being imbalanced when he just won a tournament.
.
Yes, a P has a hard time scouting a zerg when lings are out (until like hallucinate, which is AMAZING scouting and comes out quickly but back to the point), but the zerg can DIE to a multitude fo aggressive protoss openings if he doesnt prepare correctly. There are less consequences of not scouting for the protoss. Sure, an unscouted roach bust or bling bust is dangerous (and possibly win games), but proper FF and building placement can hold off outrageous amounts of aggression against the melee, short ranged zerg units
Unscouted protoss aggression, on the other hand, is insanely game-ending 4 gae, 6gate after expanding, fake expanding 5 gate, vr openings can all just insta kill a zerg if not scouted perfectly (look at Idra vs socke game 1 nasl). And if the zerg just plays defensively and doesnt die, the protoss can just expand because of the lack of aggressive threat and be miles ahead economically.
Protoss are only gonna get better at exploiting this "zerg catch 22" because of a lack of aggressive options and Idra knows that, and is trying to convey that message, while day9 is like "well you need to explore more builds and talking about balance isnt productive"
|
On May 04 2011 15:34 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:
[quote]
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist. Because they do. You have: 1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe 2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.) 3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings 4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped 5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.? Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting? Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it.
1. Speedlings arent going to tell you whats going on, you wont scout a 4gate or a starport or a stargate with speedlings, you cant get inside their base.
2. again, they are so slow that you will get denied by stalker/marine/sentry before seeing their tech path
3. overseers with speed come when its too late to prepare for a 4gate (and if you rush to them youre going to die because of the investment) they simply come too late for good early game scouting.
4. again, it wont scout inside their base, though its good for map control i agree, but still it wont scout inside their base.
5. yes, but again it wont be inside their base.
A good player can deny the zerg from knowning what they are doing inside their base. a terran could come out with a 7rax no gas build and could have completly denied a zergs scouting of it, while at the same time could have done a 1rax expand with an in base CC or a double starport build. you cant prepare for all of them!
|
please post as soon as the the show is on bliptv  my poor F5 is close to breaking soon o.o
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
