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On May 04 2011 15:26 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. Except you don't need Overlord speed to scout.
Against an idiot maybe. I've yet to see a Protoss or Terran player who has a clue who will actually let you scout their tech with a normal Overlord.
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On May 04 2011 15:23 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:20 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 Jiddra wrote:On May 04 2011 15:13 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:09 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:05 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:00 trias_e wrote:On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote:
I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power. As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that. Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct." Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument? Do you not argue to win? Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win? It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you. Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun. Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler. But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good. When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid. Tyler was given many chanses to explain, but only repeted his strange view. What can you do, at some time you kind of must go with what the person is saying. It's not kindergarten, tyler was even planning on going to law school so he should be able to live with the fact that ha made som major mistakes and was finally shown how the logic is not working.
Exactly this. Incontrol was really calm and serious, Tyler was being completely unreasonable. Colbi was not acting maliciously, he was not acting deceptively. Tyler was being a bully, for an insane reason, and was getting called out on it. His position was absurd and he got busted on it, hard.
I used to really, really like Tyler. Chalk me up for the anti-fan club now. This whole thing has been a ridiculous sideshow, and he's acted like a child throughout.
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On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight.
Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race.
He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot.
Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way.
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On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting
Or he can just make a fucking overseer. All Zerg needs for easy scouting is a Lair; most Zergs right now delay their lair and that is why they feel like they can't. Though even then it's an exaggeration because you can always sacrifice overlords.
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I think alot of the issue comes down to how you interpreted Colbi's words.
Even though he had the facts his statment of
"Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate."
I felt had a negative connotation towards TL (especially since this is his JOB) and well withholding information is always I feel a bit shady. He only provided further facts when responding to Tyler's needling. His PR talk also tries to paint that all the EU teams agree when if you read closely they have not even been consulted.
How were you affected by his response?
Poll: "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate."Neutral Response (75) 60% Negative Response (49) 39% Positive Response (2) 2% 126 total votes Your vote: "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate." (Vote): Negative Response
(Vote): Neutral Response
(Vote): Positive Response
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On May 04 2011 15:27 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:25 Daralii wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? If a toss sits on 3-4 gates without upgrades until hallucinate is done, he's going to be at a huge disadvantage for a long while. While he's getting hallucinate, he'll be either making more gates or teching. Because of the way the race is built(low tier units are relatively weak unless in large numbers, but high tier units are incredibly strong), we can't afford to just sit back until we know what our opponent's doing and then commit to a path. Then why not allow zerg to get OV speed on hatch tech? We now have the option to DELAY LAIR, delay bane and roach speed, and delay our agression with banes or roaches, in exchange for being more safe. How is this unfair in comparison to hallucinate?
It's not unfair. It also might not be necessary, or it might be the wrong thing.
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On May 04 2011 15:26 iNcontroL wrote:
talk about me more plz!!!!!!!!!
I love you and your discussions on the show <3
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On May 04 2011 15:26 iNcontroL wrote:
talk about me more plz!!!!!!!!!
Can you debate while playing DDR? Are you that versatile of a human being?
EDIT: Cool, I hit post #5000 somewhere on this thread... 
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On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting
How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? It blows my mind that people like you exist.
In the PvT, observers can be in your opponents base at like the 6 minute mark.
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Stopping in to confirm that controversy is what makes SotG great. This episode had plenty.
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I hate how hypocritical Tyler is being lately, just a few SotG's ago he was talking about winning and losing scenarios and how Zerg should lose once Toss gets that insane Deathball comparing it to Terran Mech play in BW where when Terran is maxed and at 3:3 that should be their victory. Yet when it's TvP in SCII and Terran maxes out on upgraded Thors Hellions and sends some SCVs to repair that shouldn't be a winning scenario for Terran. Toss should be able to instantly break that down by spamming Feedback on an army it takes a whole game to assemble.
SotG has turned into an incredibly Protoss biased show now where any concerns Terran and Zerg have are washed aside and all things Protoss related are discussed in insane detail.
SlayerS_MMA, IMLosira and STBomber are doing amazingly lately and MMA's amazing "Legend Killer" status in the GSTL were never discussed in depth but yet any boring PvP ever played is like completely broken down and analyzed.
Yeah I get there's the one off time where like Thorzain, Jinro and Idra are discussed but what about Korean players. Also iNcontroL calling IMMvp stale when he's one of two Terrans that have ever done Mech in TvP on GSL EVER I mean the guy mixes things up a lot.
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On May 04 2011 15:26 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:20 PeggyHill wrote:
Definatly still on day9's side re the balance debate. It's a very futile argument idra makes, ok so zerg have a hard time scouting early game, deal with it. Also very wrong to put day9 on the spot asking about a specific problem idra is having, no way could he come up with a solution on the spot. What's so wrong about that? While I do imagine IdrA knew Day9 had no response to that question, it still shows Day9's lack of direct involvement in the metagame of SC2.
Honestly, they were arguing two separate things. Day9's debate was rooted more in the design of the game's mechanics and the evolution of the metagame, while IdrA was talking about specific aspects of Zerg.
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On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
This part is true, and I'd love if on of the other pro's had brought this up. However I feel that there's more to Idra's argument.
1. Walling off, Toss and terran both get to wall off, and deny scouting except for overlords, which with a few stalkers/marines becomes easy to kill before they scout. Zerg cant wall off. The best they can do in the early game is either go with spanishiwa's build, or some pre-emptive zerglings that you place closer to their base, praying they didn't already put a pylon elsewhere and warp.
2. I dont think he necessarily believes (I could be wrong) that zerg needs a buff here, but either that or a nerf to early game wall offs for example. Because even if he manages to scout a 2rax and holds it off with zerglings, if he has 15 left over, he can't go attack the terran base and punish them. He has to make banelings first. If a terran catches a zerg going heavy early zergling attack, or baneling, and holds it usually he can punish the zerg. I believe this is what drives Idra crazy.
So even if he holds something off, he 1. must counter, which would fail to a wall off. or 2. let all the resources spent on those early zerglings be wasted and try and catch up on the macro game.
Once again, I'm not Idra, nor a pro gamer. However I believe thats the type of argument Idra was attempting to make.
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rabble rabble rabble the show was awesome! rabble rabble rabble
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from Reddit XD
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KOccs.png)
Looks like you owe Anna some drinks too JP
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On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting
Protoss gets its free Scouting at the 7 min mark. Thats insanely good. If a zerg even has ovi speed by that time he is still just behind if the protoss just did a regular 3 gate expo Because the zerg sacrificed alot of econ to tech that fast
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On May 04 2011 15:29 Raiznhell wrote:
I hate how hypocritical Tyler is being lately, just a few SotG's ago he was talking about winning and losing scenarios and how Zerg should lose once Toss gets that insane Deathball comparing it to Terran Mech play in BW where when Terran is maxed and at 3:3 that should be their victory. Yet when it's TvP in SCII and Terran maxes out on upgraded Thors Hellions and sends some SCVs to repair that shouldn't be a winning scenario for Terran. Toss should be able to instantly break that down by spamming Feedback on an army it takes a whole game to assemble.
SotG has turned into an incredibly Protoss biased show now where any concerns Terran and Zerg have are washed aside and all things Protoss related are discussed in insane detail.
SlayerS_MMA, IMLosira and STBomber are doing amazingly lately and MMA's amazing "Legend Killer" status in the GSTL were never discussed in depth but yet any boring PvP ever played is like completely broken down and analyzed.
Yeah I get there's the one off time where like Thorzain, Jinro and Idra are discussed but what about Korean players. Also iNcontroL calling IMMvp stale when he's one of two Terrans that have ever done Mech in TvP on GSL EVER I mean the guy mixes things up a lot.
I'm a Terran but I'm not sure comparing TvP and PvZ equally makes any sense, getting to a 200/200 army as a terran vs toss, and as a toss vs zerg is obviously entirely different, whether it be easier for the terran or the toss
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On May 04 2011 15:29 Raiznhell wrote:
I hate how hypocritical Tyler is being lately, just a few SotG's ago he was talking about winning and losing scenarios and how Zerg should lose once Toss gets that insane Deathball comparing it to Terran Mech play in BW where when Terran is maxed and at 3:3 that should be their victory. Yet when it's TvP in SCII and Terran maxes out on upgraded Thors Hellions and sends some SCVs to repair that shouldn't be a winning scenario for Terran. Toss should be able to instantly break that down by spamming Feedback on an army it takes a whole game to assemble.
SotG has turned into an incredibly Protoss biased show now where any concerns Terran and Zerg have are washed aside and all things Protoss related are discussed in insane detail.
SlayerS_MMA, IMLosira and STBomber are doing amazingly lately and MMA's amazing "Legend Killer" status in the GSTL were never discussed in depth but yet any boring PvP ever played is like completely broken down and analyzed.
Yeah I get there's the one off time where like Thorzain, Jinro and Idra are discussed but what about Korean players. Also iNcontroL calling IMMvp stale when he's one of two Terrans that have ever done Mech in TvP on GSL EVER I mean the guy mixes things up a lot.
No he does not say that Thor hellions were imbalanced. He said he was glad he did not have to think about solutions to it. Thats different
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On May 04 2011 15:28 Sephimos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:23 Jiddra wrote:On May 04 2011 15:20 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 Jiddra wrote:On May 04 2011 15:13 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:09 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:05 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:00 trias_e wrote:On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote:
I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power. As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that. Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct." Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument? Do you not argue to win? Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win? It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you. Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun. Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler. But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good. When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid. Tyler was given many chanses to explain, but only repeted his strange view. What can you do, at some time you kind of must go with what the person is saying. It's not kindergarten, tyler was even planning on going to law school so he should be able to live with the fact that ha made som major mistakes and was finally shown how the logic is not working. Exactly this. Incontrol was really calm and serious, Tyler was being completely unreasonable. Colbi was not acting maliciously, he was not acting deceptively. Tyler was being a bully, for an insane reason, and was getting called out on it. His position was absurd and he got busted on it, hard. I used to really, really like Tyler. Chalk me up for the anti-fan club now. This whole thing has been a ridiculous sideshow, and he's acted like a child throughout.
I actually laughed at reading this whole post. but mostly the bold part. Geoff gets really defensive and it showed. Also. REALLY? you are completely going 180% on Tyler just because he got heated and defensive about an issue concerning his team? what is wrong with you?
I'm a fan of both Incontrol and Tyler. I don't see how one heated argument between the two about something thats sort of silly anyway can change your mind about that. They aren't arguing about their views on fucking life here.
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On May 04 2011 15:26 iNcontroL wrote:
talk about me more plz!!!!!!!!!
I gained a whole new level of respect for you tonight.
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EPT
