On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote: I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power.
As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that.
Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler.
Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time.
Is he intentional? No.
And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines.
I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct."
Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument?
Do you not argue to win?
Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win?
It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you.
Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun.
Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler.
metaphors are different from the originally situation because they are metaphors.
And......am I the only one who sees a lot of shit talking by professional sportsmen?
Sports are supposed to be about passion, and that means you don't have to speak like you are writing a business case study.
He was passionately disagreeing with Tyler, and when you are passionately disagreeing with someone, you will not be thinking "hmm, I want to win this argument, but maybe I should not use this tool I developed during the past 10 years for arguing, because that will be dirty".
Besides, even for me, as a person who agrees with Tyler, he made some really bad arguments and he was terrible at explaining himself, it almost made himself look stupid.
I can imagin how frustrated myself would be if I'm arguing with him.
Except, the point of the whole thing is to communicate, not to "win" it. That's an extremely childish view of a discussion. I personally don't think passion what incontrol did (I don't even think passion was relevant to the way how he handled it).
On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote: I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power.
As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that.
Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler.
Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time.
Is he intentional? No.
And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines.
I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct."
Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument?
Do you not argue to win?
Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win?
It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you.
Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun.
Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler.
But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good.
When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid.
This thread is always such a shitstorm of emotions after the show =\ It's difficult to take most of these posts seriously when 9/10 of it is bias towards a race or towards/against a player instead of actual constructive discussion.
On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote: I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power.
As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that.
Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler.
Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time.
Is he intentional? No.
And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines.
I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct."
Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument?
Do you not argue to win?
Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win?
It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you.
Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun.
Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler.
But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good.
When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid.
Tyler was given many chanses to explain, but only repeted his strange view. What can you do, at some time you kind of must go with what the person is saying.
It's not kindergarten, tyler was even planning on going to law school so he should be able to live with the fact that ha made som major mistakes and was finally shown how the logic is not working.
This was the best SotG i've seen, i've only seen a handful, and this has got to be my favorite. Good job tonight guys. Tyler had me yelling at and shaking my monitor during his ...discussion... with Incontrollololol, but having Nick on the show just made everything better. Loved it.
On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote: he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly.
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
Le sigh.
Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing.
By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments.
Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed.
On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote: I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power.
As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that.
Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler.
Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time.
Is he intentional? No.
And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines.
I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct."
Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument?
Do you not argue to win?
Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win?
It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you.
Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun.
Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler.
But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good.
When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid.
Tyler was given many chanses to explain, but only repated his strange view. What can you do, at some time you kind of must go with what the person is saying.
It's not kindergarten, tyler was even planning on going to law school so he should be able to live with the fact that ha made som major mistakes and was finally shown how the logic is not working.
no, I'm saying incontrol should have explained why he thinks Tyler's view is weird, not Tyler... not sure how something about tyler going to lawschool is relevant to this
On May 04 2011 15:22 cozzE wrote: Lol at IdrA taking a dump on the game that gives him his livelihood. Maybe for once suck up some unfair parts of the game instead of providing more negative cannon fodder for trolls to circulate around the community. IdrA's game sense/skill is unparalleled in the US at the moment, but that does not give the right to talk down or talk crap to other 'professionals'. It just sets such a bad example and if i were EG I wouldn't be happy at all..
You know he cares about the game right? He's not just so selfish as to care about his own livelihood.
Balance in the game = respect as an ESPORT = longevity.
I think this episode was the last straw for me. I think you guys need a Terran player on the show ( as well as at least 1 Zerg player ), because 1.3.3. was not discussed with any good Terran point of view. Day9 does not talk about balance enough so random does not count.
Gretorp was great, and he gets my vote to be on state of the game every week.
On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote: I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power.
Many of us have posted here. It was pretty disgusting to watch.
I was on that train long ago. I really don't understand how people can't see through him....he's just a very self-centered person
While it may be true that Incontrol is a moderately self-centered person, I think it's going a bit far to assume his motives are manipulative. It's also just kind of silly to infer what Geoff is like in real life because of his behavior on the internet. Relative anonymity changes things a great deal.
I'm not trying to defend Incontrol being a condescending asshole at times, but really everyone on SoTG is guilty of that at one point or another. There is just no point in discussing this "self-centeredness"(we'll ignore the irony here for now) because it really feeds into itself.
People comment on Geoff's comments in threads, and then he comes in and makes a snarky comment about his impact on thread-making, and really all it's doing is feeding into any narcissistic tendencies that he may have.
TL:DR: Endlessly talking about how Incontrol is self-centered is just going to egg him on into acting that way. Frankly people should stop hyper-analyzing everything the guy says, but MOST OF ALL, he should stop worrying so much about what people are saying about him. Constantly talking about people talking about you is not a good argument against your own narcissism.
On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote: he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly.
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
If a toss sits on 3-4 gates without upgrades until hallucinate is done, he's going to be at a huge disadvantage for a long while. While he's getting hallucinate, he'll be either making more gates or teching. Because of the way the race is built(low tier units are relatively weak unless in large numbers, but high tier units are incredibly strong), we can't afford to just sit back until we know what our opponent's doing and then commit to a path.
I was a fan of Idra and Incontrol, but after the show, both of them were so disappointing. Idra just seems like a cry baby. He continuously whines and whines. I do agree that sc2 in some ways is flawed, but by no means is zerg unbalanced right now. I like Sheth's approach to it. Sheth said that the game may be imbalanced, but no one is good enough to know right now. We can't tell, new strategies will develop to counter another strategy. Also, his cry on terran being underpowered in BW (aka idra's race) was a bunch of whining. Terrans and zerg have been the more successful than protoss, but according to idra terran and zerg are the weakest.... Incontrol just lost his composure today
On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote: he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly.
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
Le sigh.
Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing.
By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments.
Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed.
1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords
the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting
On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote: he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly.
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
Le sigh.
Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing.
By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments.
Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed.
On May 04 2011 15:20 PeggyHill wrote: Definatly still on day9's side re the balance debate. It's a very futile argument idra makes, ok so zerg have a hard time scouting early game, deal with it. Also very wrong to put day9 on the spot asking about a specific problem idra is having, no way could he come up with a solution on the spot.
What's so wrong about that? While I do imagine IdrA knew Day9 had no response to that question, it still shows Day9's lack of direct involvement in the metagame of SC2.
On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote: I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power.
As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that.
Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler.
Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time.
Is he intentional? No.
And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines.
I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct."
Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument?
Do you not argue to win?
Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win?
It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you.
Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun.
Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler.
But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good.
When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid.
Tyler was given many chanses to explain, but only repated his strange view. What can you do, at some time you kind of must go with what the person is saying.
It's not kindergarten, tyler was even planning on going to law school so he should be able to live with the fact that ha made som major mistakes and was finally shown how the logic is not working.
no, I'm saying incontrol should have explained why he thinks Tyler's view is weird, not Tyler... not sure how something about tyler going to lawschool is relevant to this
I think that whole arguement just got way to personal to all of them because it turned into them almost attacking each other... Incontrolololol is just strongly opinionated and expressed himself better then Tyler... They both had valid points I guess, the whole thing is just meh... Thats the one part of the episode I could have done without...
On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote: he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly.
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
If a toss sits on 3-4 gates without upgrades until hallucinate is done, he's going to be at a huge disadvantage for a long while. While he's getting hallucinate, he'll be either making more gates or teching. Because of the way the race is built(low tier units are relatively weak unless in large numbers, but high tier units are incredibly strong), we can't afford to just sit back until we know what our opponent's doing and then commit to a path.
Then why not allow zerg to get OV speed on hatch tech?
We now have the option to DELAY LAIR, delay bane and roach speed, and delay our agression with banes or roaches, in exchange for being more safe.
I really don't see why the EG tournament thing was such a big deal. It seemed like there's something more personal going on behind the scenes, I'm probably wrong but I really couldn't understand why it was getting so heated. For the things that were actually said in the thread and the level of arguing that was going on just confused me. I know there are people that have problems with TL being the community site and housing a pro team at the same time and they would like nothing more than to see that argument play out longer for their personal agendas but man come on.
EPT
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