On May 04 2011 14:32 Chro wrote: I think tyler's idea is basically EG shouldnt have said anything on the fourm about team liquid being in it or not. Let the community ask team liquid if they're in it or not, EG should either say everything, or nothing.
He gave the community half the information, and as neutral as it was, leaving out information can be seen as aggressive. If we went to war and france didnt show up to the UN meeting and the media said "France didnt accept the invite to the meeting" then there would be a HUGE negative backlash no mater the reason. Its a very subtle way to attack someone.
pretty much this... incontrol is saying colbi's response was neutral or w/e, but leaving out information can be interpreted in a lot of different ways.
He left out information on both sides. He didn't just post EG's "side" and leave it at that. His initial post that started the whole ball rolling was: "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate."
Is that fairly vague and absent of information? Of course, because it would've been a dick move to only post EG's side, or presumptuously post Liquid's reasoning.
Yes it is fairly vague and absent of information. If I said "i invited a man named john to eat lunch, he declined" what are your immediate inferences? what do you think happened?
Now. what if I said "i invited a man named john to eat lunch and he declined because of unresolvable timing issues" what are your immediate inferences? what do you think happened?
actually a BIG difference. The second one is more neutral and truthful actually. and if you are john and here that story told about you in the FIRST way. would you not be offended that the second version was not told instead?
What if your friend John was using that time to get to his lady on the side he was hiding from his wife, and now I just found out? Quite frankly, "unresolvable timing issues" gives me more questions than the first question. The first question is vague to the point that speculation is meaningless. I don't think it's Colbi's job to say Teamliquid's reasoning in the least. He didn't post EG's side, he stated the facts and allowed TL to post as much or as little as they wanted.
No it really doesn't. The first one is way more open to speculation and the general speculations from the first version are way more negative towards john (TL) and the second one, the speculations are way more fair about the possibilities. You can't really say that it doesn't
Should Colbi give any inference as to why Liquid declined? All it does is say information that Liquid may or may not want to be given out. The only reason anybody is ok with thinking Colbi said more is because they agree with TeamLiquid's stance.
For ridiculousness's sake, let's say they decided not to participate because all of their members who were in Korea caught the clap from a dirty broad. Is Colbi supposed to say they can't attend due to medical problems? To illness? Where do you draw the line? The best place to draw the line is at the very start and post nothing that leads to inferences.
He should give inferences to the nature of the declination. A statement like the second one I made gives enough inference to not associate blame more on one party than the other. Whereas the first one does not. Thats it. Thats all there is.
And that's where your bias exists. There is only "blame" if you assume they were attempting to place any. There only exists "blame" after emotions and passion after further posting was done. You're looking back at the issue instead of where it began.
edit: Also, I still disagree wholeheartedly that he should attempt to put any of Liquid's reasonings down. They are Liquid's, and if they wanted to they have plenty of space if they desire to do so. Posting anything that hints at reasoning is presumptuous on Colbi's part. The only reason people think he should have is because Liquid's side is relatively harmless. But in the example I offered, there is no way to suggest a problem that isn't personal or more problematic.
Theres no bias. I said general inferences. That is ALL the possible inferences that could come from a statement by anyone and which ones are more common/likely based on the word choice used. Its a global response average thing not a me, personally thing. Maybe blame is too strong a word initially. But it is a milder form. perhaps responsibility. Either way, my point remains the second point I made is more neutral/fair than the first, which is why you see language like that EVERYWHERE in official statements.
(theres nothing about putting liquid's reasonings downs..its demonstrating with neutral wording that there was an unresolvable issue on both sides. Which has to be demonstrated in any sort of official response to that particular question in order to eliminate finger pointing)
On May 04 2011 15:01 Kewlots wrote: idra really won me over in this sotg
day 9 was a bit sketchy in his argument imo
day9 doesn't like talking balance. He doesn't feel he is in a position to do so. And his usual arguments don't work as well on someone like IdRa who feels like he has every right to talk about balance. I kinda feel that the argument with them went on too long and was too circular. Day was trying to be the open minded philosophic and IdRa was being the cynic.
Not gonna say either was right because thats all opinion. Both ideas have merit and idra does have more right to talk about balance than most other people. But as Day was trying to say, he was a bit biased towards his own race.
I couldn't really get what day 9 was getting at thanks for clearing that up for me
On May 04 2011 15:02 ExO_ wrote: Cobli has no business divulging why liquid declined. You do not speak for another team. imagine if you as a player had somebody else telling others why you made your decisions. Wouldn't it piss you off if somebody was speaking for you?
It's the same principle here. colbi said what happened, nothing more nothing less. Just because Tyler thinks Colbi should go out of his way to make TL look golden, doesn't mean he should. had he done that, he would be speaking for TL, and TL might be pissed that somebody else is telling everybody else their opinion in their place.
Colbi may have no business spilling why Liquid declined, but he should have offered Liquid the courtesy as a representative of the organizers of allowing Team Liquid to provide their statement about the issue.
Similar to the release of recent news in the Fighting Games community, where the organizers there allowed EG to have their statements published along with the news about issues concerning their players in order to allow readers to have the full story.
I think SOTG can have arguments like what happened on today's, but JP has to be more active in moderating them. The Tyler vs Incontrol argument kind of didn't go anywhere after the two made their initial points and went on way longer than it should have.
On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote: I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power.
As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that.
Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler.
Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time.
Is he intentional? No.
And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines.
I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct."
Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument?
Do you not argue to win?
Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win?
It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you.
Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun.
Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler.
On May 04 2011 14:21 trias_e wrote: Tyler is in the right, but doing a poor job of explaining it.
I think that, he's on the right line on a moral point of view but i think it's really hard to articulate it.
Yeah.
Colbi is representing EG. EG invited Liquid and Liquid declines for X reason. All Colbi says is that Liquid declined.
That is not the same as Liquid declined for X reason. So in reality, Colbi is lying and giving off false perceptions.
I think the entire discussion about Stride Gum/Hot Bid or whatever is weird and maybe not important at all. It's basically the same thing, except with gum and HB the incentive is monetary, whereas with Colbi the monetary incentive to lie is non-existent, so leaving out the comment about Liquid can only come from two places: A) Colbi does not want Liquid to look good and B) Colbi wants EG to look good.
Yes those are the only two possibilities...... -_-
Tyler's position (and he did get heated, which he admitted to be wrong in a weird convoluted way) is that Colbi should have just given the whole story, because the only reasons not to were hostile to the TEAM team liquid, which in turn, damage the very income of the SITE team liquid, upon which Colbi is ironically posting this.
TL;DR - Colbi is intentionally leaving out part of a story which makes TL look bad on the TL forums, and Tyler dont take no shit from that fucking kid yo
What makes you so certain that Colbi intentionally left that part out? It was probably just carelessness, not being deceptive.
Tyler's response to Colbi was childish. And his defense in being immature is literally "I'm somebody, Colbi is nobody" Please.
Thats exactlys colbis job. Is to make his brand look better then everyone elses and make everyone elses bad. Pr people just dont make random responses without thought behind it.
And that wasnt tylers response. His response was poorly presented and picked apart by someone who was trained to do just that. EG is known through any game to do anything to push their brand ahead no matter who it affects
No it was tyler's response. He said "I'm somebody because I have 5000+ posts, Colbi is nobody because he's an outsider" That's not an exact quote but he said something to that effect. And apparently he called Colbi "pathetic" in one of his posts also.
All in all, whether you think Colbi was intentionally being deceptive or just doing his job, the fact of the matter is that Tyler has been very childish during the whole thing.
i dont disagree tyler was being childish. And imo players should shut their mouth when it comes to shit like this imo(being a ex manager for a medium sized old cs team) because players get emotional and pr people wont. They will work off that and make you look like a fool and pick you apart(ie incontrol having the same emotionless expression on his face through the debate...while tyler was visably getting more upset).
But i think intially colbi was in the wrong, it was up to the team to explain why they were not attending a event. Not up to the event. If it was any other team who wasnt attending the event organizers wouldnt have given a explanation but they know tl is massive, so they need to spin it in their favor before their event is shown negatively by not working with the biggest na team to come to a compromise.
On May 04 2011 15:02 ExO_ wrote: Cobli has no business divulging why liquid declined. You do not speak for another team. imagine if you as a player had somebody else telling others why you made your decisions. Wouldn't it piss you off if somebody was speaking for you?
It's the same principle here. colbi said what happened, nothing more nothing less. Just because Tyler thinks Colbi should go out of his way to make TL look golden, doesn't mean he should. had he done that, he would be speaking for TL, and TL might be pissed that somebody else is telling everybody else their opinion in their place.
Agree 100%. Tyler very well could have been angry if Colbi had said more. Overall this whole thing is just Tyler getting mad at Colbi coming on what he sees as his turf even though it's a public forum.
I honestly have had less and less respect for Tyler as time has gone on. He has shown that he is a very arrogant and proud person.
On May 04 2011 15:08 1oo wrote: Great show again, altho the "motherfucker" from incontrol was so so uncalled for.
I think the entire debate was uncalled for. This is one of the kind of things that one just has to say "I'l not do it in the future" and leave it at that. One person was defending their neglegence and the other was whining about it. Neither person has a real goal that actually has substance and both people propogate more arguements.
On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote: he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly.
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
The point of argument is, does zerg really have less scouting abilities and also lack the flexibility to deal with such a deficit?
On May 04 2011 15:12 AzurewinD wrote: The only thing I found disappointing is that Tasteless happened to make his debut (was it his debut?) on a such a tumultuous episode. I hope it doesn't discourage him from coming on the show in the future where there might be more room for his insight
Especially when other discussions he can't comment much on are off the table.
No tasteless was on a long time ago afaik. One of the first few episodes.
And don't worry the guy has survived broodwar , he is probably very used to this kind of "fights" Not to mention he is very close with artosis and idra.
On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote: I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power.
As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that.
Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler.
Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time.
Is he intentional? No.
And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines.
I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct."
Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument?
Do you not argue to win?
Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win?
It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you.
Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun.
You don't get into discussions to "win". It's about communicating ideas.
On May 04 2011 15:01 Kewlots wrote: idra really won me over in this sotg
day 9 was a bit sketchy in his argument imo
day9 doesn't like talking balance. He doesn't feel he is in a position to do so. And his usual arguments don't work as well on someone like IdRa who feels like he has every right to talk about balance. I kinda feel that the argument with them went on too long and was too circular. Day was trying to be the open minded philosophic and IdRa was being the cynic.
Not gonna say either was right because thats all opinion. Both ideas have merit and idra does have more right to talk about balance than most other people. But as Day was trying to say, he was a bit biased towards his own race.
Well of course he's going to be biased in his own race, because he feels imbalance lies in it. He wouldn't comment on TvP imbalance because he doesn't play the match up enough.
Absolutely. He has the most experience around the zerg match ups. So its much easier for him to see flaws in that. I'm not saying its a bad thing. But talks on balance need to include all sides. So I'm saying his points aren't valid. I'm in no position to say what is or isn't balanced.
If anything his insight is more valuable now as zerg seems the most imbalanced, as opposed to beta where they were a bit OP. And he was not as vocal about it, since he didn't need to be.
But yea. Love Idra and love day9. Not gonna say either is right, they represent different schools of thought on balance. Idra can't find a solution at the moment. day9 thinks one could be out there. Idra plays way more and is more need of an immediate answer as it is his livelihood.
Gonna say I kinda side with Idra on this but I'm trying to be objective
In regards to the Zerg balance argument. It seems to me (and I may be completely off, since I am not a progamer) that a lot of zerg either have a faulty sense of 'ahead' and 'behind' or are stuck in a logic of brood war concepts of 'ahead' and 'behind.'
What I mean is, it's an accepted thought that zerg needs to be a base ahead against terran or protoss to be on equal footing throughout the game. While this may be true in the early game, it is not necessarily the case as the game continues. Now exactly how many bases do you have to be ahead to be on equal footing? I don't know, and the lack of experience in general would indicate there's likely no solid answer for that yet. If, for example, zerg and either P or T are both on 3 bases, but the zerg has those fully saturated, but the other player is just starting to mine from that base, is that enough of an economic advantage for them to be considered 'ahead' or 'behind?'
At the same time, a lot of zergs (not saying idra is included in this list) seem to compare themselves to a theoretical zerg. If you think in terms of "If I had perfect scouting information, and knew for certain I only needed X units at this point, I could have Y more drones instead, so therefore I'm behind." While this is true for a mirror matchup, where things are rather clear, the logic doesn't hold as well for ZvP or ZvT. There's more to 'ahead' or 'behind' than worker count, income, or army supply, which is the metric that is all-too-often considered when making a judgment about a game in progress.
Overall, I suppose the point I'm trying to make, is that to say "If I do this I'm ahead" or "If I do this I'm behind" are quite general and run the risk of being entirely incorrect. Additionally, the relative margin of 'ahead' or 'behind' bears on the distance to the end of the game. If you're slightly behind, but the game will continue for another 30 minutes, then there is plenty of time to catch up or fall farther behind.
I know times are tough for Zerg, and a lot of them are frustrated, and feel the game is imbalanced, and they may well be correct. I won't take the approach of 'just play better' because that seems somewhat ridiculous. At the same time, though, there are a number of strategies in BW that seemed ridiculous on paper, but were, when experimented with, quite solid. There may be something that makes no sense on paper, or seems like it would put you 'behind' when, in fact, it is the 'correct' thing to do in a circumstance.
On May 04 2011 15:02 ExO_ wrote: Cobli has no business divulging why liquid declined. You do not speak for another team. imagine if you as a player had somebody else telling others why you made your decisions. Wouldn't it piss you off if somebody was speaking for you?
It's the same principle here. colbi said what happened, nothing more nothing less. Just because Tyler thinks Colbi should go out of his way to make TL look golden, doesn't mean he should. had he done that, he would be speaking for TL, and TL might be pissed that somebody else is telling everybody else their opinion in their place.
Colbi may have no business spilling why Liquid declined, but he should have offered Liquid the courtesy as a representative of the organizers of allowing Team Liquid to provide their statement about the issue.
Similar to the release of recent news in the Fighting Games community, where the organizers there allowed EG to have their statements published along with the news about issues concerning their players in order to allow readers to have the full story.
Ya it's so unfortunate that after making that post he closed the thread and no TL members were allowed to make several posts that spanned MANY pages. Oh wait.....
He said a generic TRUE statement without speaking on their behalf, and then TL had the chance to respond, which they did. Seriously... people are taking their bias way to far. In any other life situation you would look at 2 people arguing over the way someone generically responded and say.. "really? Is it THAT big of a deal?"
On May 04 2011 15:02 ExO_ wrote: Cobli has no business divulging why liquid declined. You do not speak for another team. imagine if you as a player had somebody else telling others why you made your decisions. Wouldn't it piss you off if somebody was speaking for you?
It's the same principle here. colbi said what happened, nothing more nothing less. Just because Tyler thinks Colbi should go out of his way to make TL look golden, doesn't mean he should. had he done that, he would be speaking for TL, and TL might be pissed that somebody else is telling everybody else their opinion in their place.
Agree 100%. Tyler very well could have been angry if Colbi had said more. Overall this whole thing is just Tyler getting mad at Colbi coming on what he sees as his turf even though it's a public forum.
I honestly have had less and less respect for Tyler as time has gone on. He has shown that he is a very arrogant and proud person.
its a public forum because teamliquid chooses to make it so, therefore people from other communities coming here to post SHOULD extend some additional courtesy and not just rely on "well if you ban us then you are really just hurting esports."
On May 04 2011 15:06 MaestroSC wrote: this SotG was about drama... so it was a SotG cast that Jp probably loved, because everyone knows he cares more about the drama and soap opera scene of the SC2 community than the actual games. O and he got 20,000 people to watch so he made lots of money off of stream revenue thanks to idra.
but seriously SotG this week had VERY little Starcraft 2 actually in it. The balance talk between Idra and Sean was semi-interesting but basically coming down to Sean saying "i dont think its imbalanced" and Greg said "yes it is. i am the best player in the world and occasionally i lose to players who i consider worse so its obviously imbalanced".
then Geoff and Tyler argued about Tyler hurting EG's feelings and Geoff saying "Well im from EG so fuck you" sort of stuff. Whatever what do you expect from him and Idra when they are from EG. Geoff is a master arguer coming from a background in debate and it was clear with his usage of common techniques that efficient debaters always possess... and this cat fight took up like an hour.
Was kinda lame. <3'ed Tasteless being on it tho, is still the most handsome nerd of them all for sure. IDk this SotG had very little actual sc2 related info.
And the Idra and Machine "twins" will be forever entrenched in my brain whenever i see either of them. Because they were actually hysterical together. Machine is such a cool guy who really doesn't care much about how he comes off, he just comes off as such a genuine nice guy. These two tho were the only interesting thing of the night truely =/
IDK wish they would have discussed the Losira ZvP opener/build because i think there is a LOT to it and I think pro's are under estimating it.
First of all, those are some pretty bad generalizations. I'm pretty sure the argument went a little bit deeper than "hurting EG's feelings." Yes, it escalated a bit more than it should have at points, but both Geoff's and Tyler's arguments were pretty sensible, and you can't just deride them like that.
Honestly, I think that this was one of the most interesting shows yet. Sure, it wasn't as lightheartedly hilarious as the drunk episode, but I don't think the Tyler-Geoff debate was irrelevant drama. Sure, it may have only been partially connected to Starcraft, but it really got into what it means to be part of a community and what it means to represent an organization. It definitely can be applied to other posts here on Team Liquid, and they reflect on forum behavior in general.
Importantly, they're all close friends. There was a bit of hostility tonight, but they're not gonna hold grudges against each other. I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't get to hear more from Machine or Tasteless, but maybe that'll be another time.
On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote: he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly.
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra.
That's not the way you approach this argument.
Stop. It.
That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack".
Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip.
This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
EPT
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