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On May 04 2011 15:07 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:00 trias_e wrote:On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote:
I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power. As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that. Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. Yes, but I'm a protoss player and I find that even if a pro of Idra's level has something to say about imbalance, its worth listening too. And if there is a solution, the other pro's in the call could point out his problem. I think incontrol just shuts him down because Idra thinks protoss takes no skill, and he plays protoss. So stop shutting him down, and make your points clear on the podcast. Especially tonights podcast, the most viewed one they've ever had. And as far as using debate tactics, thats fine when making your point. However to throw in swear words directly at your opponent, and then beat them while there down in a friendly podcast? Come on now...
Well I don't think SotG is the best place for them to solve ZvP. They should keep that to themselves for as long as possible for a competitive advantage.
On May 04 2011 15:09 GriNn wrote:
I don't understand how it's EG's right to explain why teamliquid declined the invite. They did the right thing in stating exactly what happened, and then letting TL explain their own reasoning.
If people had misconceptions about why TL declined, then that's they're own fault for making dumb assumptions.
Anyway, not looking forward to the insane amount of pages we'll see discussing this discussion, lol.
I've got to agree with your first and third paragraphs. The ball wasn't even in play, but TL had the next possession regarding the invites and explanations.
An amazing show in my opinion. An EXCELLENT cast tonight, some good SC2 talk in the beginning, LOTS of player talk, some heat - just a great combination. Time to sleep with visions of vampire Tasteless dancing in my head.
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On May 04 2011 15:05 Fates wrote:
Secondly, about the incontrol and tyler thing, I can see both of their points. I think maybe tyler took colbi's statement the wrong way, as it was just a simple statement.
I quite agree. Tyler read too much into what Colbi was saying. It seems like quite a territorial reaction from Tyler, he felt his `home` was threatened. I think he'll realize it was all just a big misunderstanding once the testosterone drops, but I think his own posts are entirely excusable once you grant him that he misunderstood the intent of Colbi.
Also hurray for all things related to MoOse.
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On May 04 2011 15:13 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:09 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:05 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:00 trias_e wrote:On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote:
I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power. As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that. Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct." Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument? Do you not argue to win? Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win? It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you. Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun. Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler.
But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didn't mean it the way it sounded, but it was not good.
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On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path.
What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
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On May 04 2011 15:13 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:09 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:05 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:00 trias_e wrote:On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote:
I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power. As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that. Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct." Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument? Do you not argue to win? Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win? It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you. Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun. Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler.
metaphors are different from the original situations because they are metaphors.
And......am I the only one who sees a lot of shit talking by professional sportsmen?
Sports are supposed to be about passion, and that means you don't have to speak like you are writing a business case study.
He was passionately disagreeing with Tyler, and when you are passionately disagreeing with someone, you will not be thinking "hmm, I want to win this argument, but maybe I should not use this tool I developed during the past 10 years for arguing, because that will be dirty".
Besides, even for me, as a person who agrees with Tyler, he made some really bad arguments and he was terrible at explaining himself, it almost made himself look stupid.
I can imagin how frustrated myself would be if I'm arguing with him.
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On May 04 2011 15:14 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". The point of argument is, does zerg really have less scouting abilities and also lack the flexibility to deal with such a deficit?
IdrA should play chess where everyone has the same pieces and options. Then we could all sit back and watch his head explode when he cannot define the imbalance that causes him to lose.
Honestly, his inability to consider an alternative point of view makes the conversation die before it starts. Even if Day9 managed to make a strongly worded defense, which he kinda failed to do, then it still would have netted the same result. IdrA has his reality, and everyone else has theirs. How does Day9 not know this already? Shame on him for even engaging that way. Tyler saved the conversation by using rational language and explinations, but I was shocked to see how little that resonated with the panel.
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I always come back to the point in the imbalance conversation that playing zerg is just harder than playing any other race. Is that imbalance? Should each race be as easy to play as the others?
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Definatly still on day9's side re the balance debate. It's a very futile argument idra makes, ok so zerg have a hard time scouting early game, deal with it. Also very wrong to put day9 on the spot asking about a specific problem idra is having, no way could he come up with a solution on the spot.
Personally I find it hard to scout a zerg (pvz) after he gets lings out early game, I'm only high diamond though. Thats how the game is.
One of the big thing idra doesn't understand is that in sports the 'better player' doesn't always win, that would be boring.
Also big props to day9 about the only metric we have is wins, it's pretty hard for idra to talk about zerg being imbalanced when he just won a tournament.
tl;dr - I love you day9 
Also on the eg vs liquid thing, thought it was very pathetic, both sides need to grow up. SC2 is a business now, people need to keep emotions out of it.
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The best SotG I have seen in a long time. Back to its controversial roots ^^
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On May 04 2011 15:18 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:13 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:09 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:05 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:00 trias_e wrote:On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote:
I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power. As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that. Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct." Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument? Do you not argue to win? Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win? It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you. Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun. Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler. But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good.
When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid.
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Any clue when it will be up? I'm so sad I missed it.
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On May 04 2011 15:14 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". The point of argument is, does zerg really have less scouting abilities and also lack the flexibility to deal with such a deficit?
Zerg definitely is the easiest to exploit, so even if they had 'equal' scouting opportunities, it wouldn't necessarily mean equality, just because of how the race is designed, and the power of aggressive options. imo, giving slightly better reactive abilities (spine time, for instance) is more important than just powering up scouting.
sotg's discussion is obviously going to degenerate into trolling when one side poses any specific balance weakness as 'my race is broken', backed by what really feels like an assumption that he 'should' win in a balanced situation - and the other taking the more passive view that the former view is unproductive. Obviously you can't solve rather inflated grievances right there, and there's so much bias, that, well... entertainment.
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I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight.
As far as Tyler goes, any objective observer would realize how insane his stance is. Colbi did exactly what he should have. He gave the bare minimum facts, and didn't try to speak for Team Liquid. Tyler was being a bully, and I'm glad that TL's administration strongly countered him in the thread in question.
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Machine is so cute when you guys make fun of him hahaha, he kinda like, turtles up with a grin on his face haha, I love Bryce, nicest guy ever.
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I think I know what Tyler was getting at...
I'm reminded of a person I knew back in high school. His mom would ask if he was going out that night, and told him to stay out of trouble. He would reassure her, saying, "I won't be drinking, don't worry." Of course then he'd go out and just get blazed. So what he said wasn't technically a LIE, but he was certainly being deceptive, and I feel that's what Tyler was driving at. Colbi didn't actually LIE, but he was supposedly being deceptive.
However, in MY example there's some obvious ill intent, and the deception is done maliciously. In the case of Colbi, I feel like Colbi was just trying to handle the situation as diplomatically as possible, and for him that meant not starting any drama by just stating the bare facts. The problem, however, seems to be that Tyler sensed some malicious intent to deceive, where I believe there was in fact none.
I really think it's more of a misunderstanding than anything, but at the same time Tyler probably should have exercised more restraint, rather than getting so indignant (even if it was righteous indignation in his mind).
Have I teased out any of the nuances here? I hate to see people simply hate on Tyler when they misunderstand his argument. Tyler's one of the more thoughtful people on TL, but at the same time I don't think he's treating Colbi charitably here.
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Incontrol and Tyler Debate was great. I really like well reasoned discussions. They both had their own view on the matter and allthough i can't agree 100% with any of them it was interressting listening to ....until Incontrol badly insulted Tyler and brought it down to a personal level. Too bad 
I also liked the discussion between Day9 and idrA but it was obvious that Day9 wasn't really prepared for it and instead of stopping at one point he followed idrA's reasoning into the little details were no solution can be found.
Regarding the balance discussion: I would suggest to make an episode "State of the Game: Balance Edition" and have them only talking about various Balance Views/Standpoints with preparation. I could imagine that it would be the most viewed "State of the Game" ever.
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On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about?
Le sigh.
Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means it comes into play so late that you've already missed the timings for numerous strategies, since the exact moment warp gate research finishes is usually when a lot of the warp gate timing attacks, marine scv all ins, and roach all ins start hitting.
By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments.
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On May 04 2011 15:17 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:13 happyness wrote:On May 04 2011 15:02 ExO_ wrote:
Cobli has no business divulging why liquid declined. You do not speak for another team. imagine if you as a player had somebody else telling others why you made your decisions. Wouldn't it piss you off if somebody was speaking for you?
It's the same principle here. colbi said what happened, nothing more nothing less. Just because Tyler thinks Colbi should go out of his way to make TL look golden, doesn't mean he should. had he done that, he would be speaking for TL, and TL might be pissed that somebody else is telling everybody else their opinion in their place. Agree 100%. Tyler very well could have been angry if Colbi had said more. Overall this whole thing is just Tyler getting mad at Colbi coming on what he sees as his turf even though it's a public forum. I honestly have had less and less respect for Tyler as time has gone on. He has shown that he is a very arrogant and proud person. its a public forum because teamliquid chooses to make it so, therefore people from other communities coming here to post SHOULD extend some additional courtesy and not just rely on "well if you ban us then you are really just hurting esports."
Oh my god... what is this? Seriously... are you thinking things through?
Colbi didn't walk in and say "Hey mother fuckers I'm hosting a tournament and I can do what the fuck I want. Tyler shut the fuck up because if you ban me then you guys lose publicity."
Yet your response seemed to be a response to that kind of a post. By no means did he come across as "well if you ban us then you are really just hurting esports." (and your reply was in a direct response to someone talking about the Colbi situation... so don't realize you were wrong and say... "ohhh I was just talking about other things... in general...")
Also "its a public forum because teamliquid chooses to make it so" is true, but their popularity has to do with the public.. not the team alone. Now this is where I can understand if people disagree with me... but personally I don't think TL players should be treated like Gods here because its success is due to being an open place of discussion, not some fan club.
REGARDLESS, "therefore people from other communities coming here to post SHOULD extend some additional courtesy" is... why is this a direct response to the Colbi situation? He wasn't even being disrespectful... what... god there seems to be so much bias.
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One of my professors had a good saying: "proof by incomplete imagination is not a proof." I mean, they both had good points, but it's a young and complicated game.
The debate between incontrol and Tyler was retarded. Non-issue being blown out of proportion. Hope nothing like that ever comes up again.
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Lol at IdrA taking a dump on the game that gives him his livelihood. Maybe for once suck up some unfair parts of the game instead of providing more negative cannon fodder for trolls to circulate around the community. IdrA's game sense/skill is unparalleled in the US at the moment, but that does not give the right to talk down or talk crap to other 'professionals'. It just sets such a bad example and if i were EG I wouldn't be happy at all..
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EPT
