EPT
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 924
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:00 Glowbox wrote: Tyler looked very mad at the ending! Anyhoo, great show. Idra and Day9 finally get a little bit more indepth on ZvX and (im)balance. I'd really like to see these guys debate longer on this subject! Also loved to see the Zergs (idra,machine) representin! And of course bringing Tasteless on is always awesome. I think we'd know if Tyler was actually mad. You'll recall that last time he was angry, he broke his headset. :D I do think it'd be good for IdrA and Sean to have a formal discussion on the matter so long as both parties are given time to form their points. Sean was effectively asked to fix zerg strategy on the spot, and that really doesn't seem fair to him. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:46 Falcor wrote: Thats exactlys colbis job. Is to make his brand look better then everyone elses and make everyone elses bad. Pr people just dont make random responses without thought behind it. And that wasnt tylers response. His response was poorly presented and picked apart by someone who was trained to do just that. EG is known through any game to do anything to push their brand ahead no matter who it affects No it was tyler's response. He said "I'm somebody because I have 5000+ posts, Colbi is nobody because he's an outsider" That's not an exact quote but he said something to that effect. And apparently he called Colbi "pathetic" in one of his posts also. All in all, whether you think Colbi was intentionally being deceptive or just doing his job, the fact of the matter is that Tyler has been very childish during the whole thing. | ||
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eNbee
Belgium487 Posts
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:01 Macabre wrote: I 100% agree with Tyler on his debate over fake persona on the forums to create a professional image for yourself. But nah let's have everyone turn into mindless hand shaking GG zombies. Do you really not see the flip side to that argument? Would you rather everyone turn into complete trolling assholes who only look out for their best interests? Of course not... there needs to be a balance, and guess what... that's what we have now. You still see controversy, but at the same time people are expected to "behave" for MANY reasons such as representing an organization, improving their image (which again is for many reasons) or simply to not get banned. It is incredibly easy to say "I agree I would not like everyone to be mindless hand shaking GG zombies" but you aren't even arguing anything. You are just looking at one extreme situation and saying you disagree with it in a way that looks like you are disagreeing with someone else (incontrol in this case) when I am sure he would also agree that he doesn't want everyone to be like that since that isn't even what he is saying. | ||
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Namu
United States826 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote: Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct." | ||
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
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Fates
United States91 Posts
Secondly, about the incontrol and tyler thing, I can see both of their points. I think maybe tyler took colbi's statement the wrong way, as it was just a simple statement. | ||
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CScythe
Canada810 Posts
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
but seriously SotG this week had VERY little Starcraft 2 actually in it. The balance talk between Idra and Sean was semi-interesting but basically coming down to Sean saying "i dont think its imbalanced" and Greg said "yes it is. i am the best player in the world and occasionally i lose to players who i consider worse so its obviously imbalanced". then Geoff and Tyler argued about Tyler hurting EG's feelings and Geoff saying "Well im from EG so fuck you" sort of stuff. Whatever what do you expect from him and Idra when they are from EG. Geoff is a master arguer coming from a background in debate and it was clear with his usage of common techniques that efficient debaters always possess... and this cat fight took up like an hour. Was kinda lame. <3'ed Tasteless being on it tho, is still the most handsome nerd of them all for sure. IDk this SotG had very little actual sc2 related info. And the Idra and Machine "twins" will be forever entrenched in my brain whenever i see either of them. Because they were actually hysterical together. Machine is such a cool guy who really doesn't care much about how he comes off, he just comes off as such a genuine nice guy. These two tho were the only interesting thing of the night truely =/ IDK wish they would have discussed the Losira ZvP opener/build because i think there is a LOT to it and I think pro's are under estimating it. | ||
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FezTheCaliph
United States492 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:01 Kewlots wrote: idra really won me over in this sotg day 9 was a bit sketchy in his argument imo day9 doesn't like talking balance. He doesn't feel he is in a position to do so. And his usual arguments don't work as well on someone like IdRa who feels like he has every right to talk about balance. I kinda feel that the argument with them went on too long and was too circular. Day was trying to be the open minded philosophic and IdRa was being the cynic. Not gonna say either was right because thats all opinion. Both ideas have merit and idra does have more right to talk about balance than most other people. But as Day was trying to say, he was a bit biased towards his own race. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45320 Posts
I did enjoy the throwdowns they had too | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:02 Zeri wrote: He should give inferences to the nature of the declination. A statement like the second one I made gives enough inference to not associate blame more on one party than the other. Whereas the first one does not. Thats it. Thats all there is. And that's where your bias exists. There is only "blame" if you assume they were attempting to place any. There only exists "blame" after emotions and passion after further posting was done. You're looking back at the issue instead of where it began. edit: Also, I still disagree wholeheartedly that he should attempt to put any of Liquid's reasonings down. They are Liquid's, and if they wanted to they have plenty of space if they desire to do so. Posting anything that hints at reasoning is presumptuous on Colbi's part. The only reason people think he should have is because Liquid's side is relatively harmless. But in the example I offered, there is no way to suggest a problem that isn't personal or more problematic. | ||
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Flowjo
United States928 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:00 Namu wrote: Many of us have posted here. It was pretty disgusting to watch. I was on that train long ago. I really don't understand how people can't see through him....he's just a very self-centered person | ||
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last.resistance
Canada543 Posts
I feel like it's 100% unless Wheat beats him to it. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
How long does it usually take for the VOD to go up? | ||
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Fates
United States91 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:06 FezTheCaliph wrote: day9 doesn't like talking balance. He doesn't feel he is in a position to do so. And his usual arguments don't work as well on someone like IdRa who feels like he has every right to talk about balance. I kinda feel that the argument with them went on too long and was too circular. Day was trying to be the open minded philosophic and IdRa was being the cynic. Not gonna say either was right because thats all opinion. Both ideas have merit and idra does have more right to talk about balance than most other people. But as Day was trying to say, he was a bit biased towards his own race. Well of course he's going to be biased in his own race, because he feels imbalance lies in it. He wouldn't comment on TvP imbalance because he doesn't play the match up enough. | ||
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ronpaul012
United States769 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote: Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. Yes, but I'm a protoss player and I find that even if a pro of Idra's level has something to say about imbalance, its worth listening too. And if there is a solution, the other pro's in the call could point out his problem. I think incontrol just shuts him down because Idra thinks protoss takes no skill, and he plays protoss. So stop shutting him down, and make your points clear on the podcast. Especially tonights podcast, the most viewed one they've ever had. And as far as using debate tactics, thats fine when making your point. However to throw in swear words directly at your opponent, and then beat them while there down in a friendly podcast? Come on now... | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote: But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as the opponent. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Failing that, he wants a perfect build that is safe against all cheese and which still allows him to macro as greedy as the opponent. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. You approach it by saying that the inability to make perfect reads isn't indicative of balance problems, which is sort of what Tyler said. It's indicative of a game that has an element of chance. But how much chance - that's something yet to be determined, and this is what Day9 should've been arguing - it's too early to say that it's all a giant coin-flip just because you haven't found a better build. Zergs have developed builds that are safe against all sorts of early Terran pressure since.the Beta days, when cloaked banshees auto-won games against Zerg (could you imagine that?) There's no reason to believe that we've reached the end of the meta-game evolution. That's always been Day9's main point and this did not come through in the debate not because it's a weak argument, but because Day9 did not express it well enough. | ||
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1oo
Portugal876 Posts
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