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On May 04 2011 15:28 Sephimos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:23 Jiddra wrote:On May 04 2011 15:20 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 Jiddra wrote:On May 04 2011 15:13 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:09 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:05 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:00 trias_e wrote:On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote:
I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power. As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that. Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct." Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument? Do you not argue to win? Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win? It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you. Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun. Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler. But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good. When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid. Tyler was given many chanses to explain, but only repeted his strange view. What can you do, at some time you kind of must go with what the person is saying. It's not kindergarten, tyler was even planning on going to law school so he should be able to live with the fact that ha made som major mistakes and was finally shown how the logic is not working. Exactly this. Incontrol was really calm and serious, Tyler was being completely unreasonable. Colbi was not acting maliciously, he was not acting deceptively. Tyler was being a bully, for an insane reason, and was getting called out on it. His position was absurd and he got busted on it, hard. I used to really, really like Tyler. Chalk me up for the anti-fan club now. This whole thing has been a ridiculous sideshow, and he's acted like a child throughout.
Wow. I agree with your first three paragraphs. In fact, Tyler would even agree with your first - he couldn't properly articulate what he wanted to say (~20 pages ago?). But to join this hypothetical "anti-fan club"?
I basically just read your post as 3 body paragraphs explaining how to act mature, followed by a conclusion with the perfect example of how to act immature.
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On May 04 2011 15:29 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:26 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:20 PeggyHill wrote:
Definatly still on day9's side re the balance debate. It's a very futile argument idra makes, ok so zerg have a hard time scouting early game, deal with it. Also very wrong to put day9 on the spot asking about a specific problem idra is having, no way could he come up with a solution on the spot. What's so wrong about that? While I do imagine IdrA knew Day9 had no response to that question, it still shows Day9's lack of direct involvement in the metagame of SC2. Honestly, they were arguing two separate things. Day9's debate was rooted more in the design of the game's mechanics and the evolution of the metagame, while IdrA was talking about specific aspects of Zerg.
Yep. And that's why it was clearly seen that Day9 was deflecting and trying to get out of the discussion of balance.
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On May 04 2011 15:13 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:04 happyness wrote:On May 04 2011 14:46 Falcor wrote:On May 04 2011 14:42 happyness wrote:On May 04 2011 14:30 Oreo7 wrote:On May 04 2011 14:22 TheHova wrote:On May 04 2011 14:21 trias_e wrote:
Tyler is in the right, but doing a poor job of explaining it. I think that, he's on the right line on a moral point of view but i think it's really hard to articulate it. Yeah. Colbi is representing EG. EG invited Liquid and Liquid declines for X reason. All Colbi says is that Liquid declined. That is not the same as Liquid declined for X reason. So in reality, Colbi is lying and giving off false perceptions. I think the entire discussion about Stride Gum/Hot Bid or whatever is weird and maybe not important at all. It's basically the same thing, except with gum and HB the incentive is monetary, whereas with Colbi the monetary incentive to lie is non-existent, so leaving out the comment about Liquid can only come from two places: A) Colbi does not want Liquid to look good and B) Colbi wants EG to look good. Yes those are the only two possibilities...... -_- Tyler's position (and he did get heated, which he admitted to be wrong in a weird convoluted way) is that Colbi should have just given the whole story, because the only reasons not to were hostile to the TEAM team liquid, which in turn, damage the very income of the SITE team liquid, upon which Colbi is ironically posting this.
TL;DR - Colbi is intentionally leaving out part of a story which makes TL look bad on the TL forums, and Tyler dont take no shit from that fucking kid yo What makes you so certain that Colbi intentionally left that part out? It was probably just carelessness, not being deceptive. Tyler's response to Colbi was childish. And his defense in being immature is literally "I'm somebody, Colbi is nobody" Please. Thats exactlys colbis job. Is to make his brand look better then everyone elses and make everyone elses bad. Pr people just dont make random responses without thought behind it. And that wasnt tylers response. His response was poorly presented and picked apart by someone who was trained to do just that. EG is known through any game to do anything to push their brand ahead no matter who it affects No it was tyler's response. He said "I'm somebody because I have 5000+ posts, Colbi is nobody because he's an outsider" That's not an exact quote but he said something to that effect. And apparently he called Colbi "pathetic" in one of his posts also. All in all, whether you think Colbi was intentionally being deceptive or just doing his job, the fact of the matter is that Tyler has been very childish during the whole thing. i dont disagree tyler was being childish. And imo players should shut their mouth when it comes to shit like this imo(being a ex manager for a medium sized old cs team) because players get emotional and pr people wont. They will work off that and make you look like a fool and pick you apart(ie incontrol having the same emotionless expression on his face through the debate...while tyler was visably getting more upset). But i think intially colbi was in the wrong, it was up to the team to explain why they were not attending a event. Not up to the event. If it was any other team who wasnt attending the event organizers wouldnt have given a explanation but they know tl is massive, so they need to spin it in their favor before their event is shown negatively by not working with the biggest na team to come to a compromise.
I don't get this at all. They post about a tournament on the team liquid site and posters were within the first posts asking why the team liquid wasn't in it. Colbi made a post that did in no way explain why they didn't attend the event, I don't know where you have got that idea from. How exactly did he spin it in any direction with his first post?
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On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? It blows my mind that people like you exist. In the PvT, observers can be in your opponents base at like the 6 minute mark.
i didnt argue shit, stop being paranoid. all i said was hallucinate is just for scouting, while overlord speed can be useful in other ways
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On May 04 2011 15:29 Raiznhell wrote:
I hate how hypocritical Tyler is being lately, just a few SotG's ago he was talking about winning and losing scenarios and how Zerg should lose once Toss gets that insane Deathball comparing it to Terran Mech play in BW where when Terran is maxed and at 3:3 that should be their victory. Yet when it's TvP in SCII and Terran maxes out on upgraded Thors Hellions and sends some SCVs to repair that shouldn't be a winning scenario for Terran. Toss should be able to instantly break that down by spamming Feedback on an army it takes a whole game to assemble.
That's because in BW, T was the race that wanted to get their high-power composition together, but was weaker in small scale battles (TvP).
That's not the case in SC2. T wins the small scale battles typically, and P is the race that wants to get it together to hammer down on T. The specific timings Tyler was bringing up are basically situations where T gets it both ways, and hence he mentioned he had no idea what to do against them.
Thors are pretty good.
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Lol iNcontrol you troll, you're probably one of my favorite SC2 players as far as personality goes. State of the game would be a lot less entertaining without you.
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On May 04 2011 15:30 Tabbris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting Protoss gets its free Scouting at the 7 min mark. Thats insanely good. If a zerg even has ovi speed by that time he is still just behind if the protoss just did a regular 3 gate expo Because the zerg sacrificed alot of econ to tech that fast
it blows my mind you think its free
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On May 04 2011 15:26 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:20 PeggyHill wrote:
Definatly still on day9's side re the balance debate. It's a very futile argument idra makes, ok so zerg have a hard time scouting early game, deal with it. Also very wrong to put day9 on the spot asking about a specific problem idra is having, no way could he come up with a solution on the spot. What's so wrong about that? While I do imagine IdrA knew Day9 had no response to that question, it still shows Day9's lack of direct involvement in the metagame of SC2.
You are saying Day9 isn't involved in SC2 metagame? The man dedicates hours upon hours to the game, I'm sure he has some idea what is going on.
It's just unrealistic to expect him (or anyone, even Idra) to come up with an answer on the spot like that.
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On May 04 2011 15:32 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:
[quote]
But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation.
You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later.
Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? It blows my mind that people like you exist. In the PvT, observers can be in your opponents base at like the 6 minute mark. i didnt argue shit, stop being paranoid. all i said was hallucinate is just for scouting, while overlord speed can be useful in other ways
I apologize. I was moreso relating to the actual topic itself and not trying to attack you.
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On May 04 2011 15:29 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:26 Condor Hero wrote:On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed. 1. every zerg eventually needs to get lair 2. ovie speed has tons more uses than just scouting (drop play, save them from real phoenix, spread creep) 3. zergs have lots of overlords the state of hallucinate right now is just for scouting How can anyone argue the fact that Z has the same scouting oppurtunities as T or P? That blows my mind that people like you exist.
Because they do.
You have:
1. Speedlings - gives complete map control and proxy scouting if you choose to take it, whereas a Protoss or Terran has to scout around with an easily killable probe
2. Overlords - can be sacrificed to obtain a great deal of information on many maps, even if the opponent hides his tech (because you can tell a great deal about what a player is doing just by his SCV count, his gas count, his chronoboost energy, etc.)
3. Overseers - overlord with speed without overlord speed, and can drop down changelings
4. Creep tumors - scout virtually anywhere you have creep, complete information about enemy army movements until they are sniped
5. Overlords - did I mention overlords can be placed around the map to scout out incoming drops, attacks, etc.?
Protoss has observers, hallucinated phoenixes, and real phoenixes for scouting. They can also drop pylons. How is that superior scouting?
Terran has scans and sensor towers. And hellions if they can ever get in a base. That's it.
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On May 04 2011 15:24 walklightwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:22 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 walklightwhat wrote:On May 04 2011 15:17 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 15:12 Mailing wrote:On May 04 2011 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 04 2011 14:55 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 04 2011 14:00 blade55555 wrote:
he wants a way too be able too scout and be able too react in a decent time or a build that makes you safe vs all. In bw if terran did that marine/medic push and you had 2 sunkens down you could morph them as soon as they move out once you see it, and they will finish in time. If you see something coming you should be able too prepare in a decent time and not do it blindly. But the Z player would have had to prepare by putting colonies in the right spot to be able to morph them. If you just made spines build in 30s flat then IdrA can do absolutely nothing but drone, then throw up 3 spine crawlers as soon as the T moves out, with no other preparation. You couldn't see the T player start moving out, and only then start to put buildings in the right spot to get sunkens and expect it to happen in time. They are fundamentally different in the way that they work compared to spine crawlers. You also can't then reposition them all game long to make them useful later. Idra wants to have the tools to make perfect reads while still being able to macro as greedy as he pleases. In short, he wants map hack, except through a series of subtle signals as opposed to something as clear as day, so that "lesser players" can't take advantage of it. Day9 lost the argument because he fell into Idra's trap and tried to argue specifics with Idra. That's not the way you approach this argument. Stop. It. That is NOT what IdrA said AT ALL. He wants EQUAL scouting ability that T and P have, not "maphack". Wrong. Idra's argument in a nutshell is that Z has to be able to react to every possible kind of build that T and P can do, because Z is a reactive race and if you don't react correctly then you die. To do that you need to be able to scout exactly what build they're doing. Otherwise it's a coin flip. This is the heart of his argument. Not Z needs to be able to scout as well as T and P, because Z can already scout as well as T and P. Especially P, which has to either go hallucinated phoenixes or observers in order to make any meaningful scouting, and by the time you have those techs you have already made a significant commitment on tech path. What? Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires no tech-path commitment at all. What are you talking about? Le sigh. Getting a hallucinated phoenix requires you to research hallucination, which you either do before or after warp gate tech. If you do it before warp gate tech then you are delaying your warp gates => you are choosing not to go fast warp gate builds (ie 4 gate). Getting hallucination after warp gate tech means you've already committed to not doing a warp gate timing attack because you have to wait for hallucination to finish which is again a huge delay on your warp gate timing. By the time hallucination is researched in EITHER case you have already made significant tech commitments. Which requires less than it takes for Zerg to get Lair and Overlord Speed.
Actually, strictly speaking from a time perspective, lair + overlord speed takes as long as warpgate research alone to finish (unchronoboosted). The total time for Lair+ovie speed is 140 seconds, while warp gate+hallucinate is 220 seconds (soon to be 240 seconds). I'm fairly sure that's longer than lair + hallucinate, even if you only chrono'd the core.
The costs are different (250/200 vs. 150/150), I suppose, but you also don't need 100 energy form a sentry to use ovie speed and you don't need a 50/100 gas unit.
I guess I just would like to know what you mean by "less" here?
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On May 04 2011 15:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:21 Sephimos wrote:
I'm SO glad that IdrA called Day9 out on his asinine balance stance.
"Zerg have no way to scout".
"I don't know that I agree"
"So, how can they scout?"
"Uhhh...welll..."
I love Day9 but his trolling was really retarded and IdrA panned him tonight. Well that's the issue right there - Zerg has some difficulty getting perfect information, but what race doesn't early on - and IdrA translates every weakness into an incapability that breaks the race. He focuses way too much on X isn't fair, so Zerg is shit, and not on specifically looking at X - the most productive part of the discussion was where they brought up the comparison between spines and sunkens, with spines being too slow to offer a strong reactive option. I don't blame Day9 for going straight to trolling when the only response that would fulfill what IdrA asks the rest of the time is to solve the Zerg race on the spot. Don't think either side really brought up their points in the greatest way.
uhh terran can scan extremely early and toss has hallucination and/or obs pretty quick. But terran and toss dont have to have as early as a scout as zerg since zerg is the most vulnerable early game.
So how does it make sense that the race that relies the most on early game scouting has the worst scouting abilities till lair.
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Why is there not a Tasteless winking .gif yet then????
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On May 04 2011 15:32 garlicface wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:28 Sephimos wrote:On May 04 2011 15:23 Jiddra wrote:On May 04 2011 15:20 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:18 Jiddra wrote:On May 04 2011 15:13 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:09 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:05 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 15:03 Mioraka wrote:On May 04 2011 15:00 trias_e wrote:
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As someone who was on Tyler's side of that argument, this is a terrible, haterade fueled post. Look. Incontrol is part of EG, and he used his skills to make EG look good. I don't see how you can blame him for that. Agreed, that was a terrible post even tho i agree with Tyler. Using debate tactics is quite a natural instinct if you are/were a debater for a long time. Is he intentional? No. And he shuts down Idra? He should, because although Idra has some really good points, he probably repeated them so long on forum/podcast or IRL, that Incontrol got really bored of those lines. I'm not sure using debate tactics to a fellow progamer to belittle & demean him is justified because it's, lol, "natural instinct." Do you not get pissed off/ frustrated when you get into a heated argument? Do you not argue to win? Do you not use the tools you learnt in debate when you really want to win? It's like standing in a forest with a gun in your hand, and seeing a bear walking towards you. Sure, he might not want to kill you, but naturally you are probably gonna use that fucking gun. Are you really equating death or life situations to a friendly podcast debate? Incontrol is, supposedly, a professional. (Well not from what I've seen today) He was just being a douche bag today unnecessarily by being really demeaning and just trying to make a complete fool out of Tyler. But not before Tyler himself made some really strange views known. Perhaps Tyler didnät mean it the wau it sounded, but it was not good. When you're having a discussion with someone and the other person says something weird, you explain why you think it's weird. You don't act demeaning, call the person a motherfucker, and continuously go back to that weird view to make it seem like that person's argument as a whole is invalid. Tyler was given many chanses to explain, but only repeted his strange view. What can you do, at some time you kind of must go with what the person is saying. It's not kindergarten, tyler was even planning on going to law school so he should be able to live with the fact that ha made som major mistakes and was finally shown how the logic is not working. Exactly this. Incontrol was really calm and serious, Tyler was being completely unreasonable. Colbi was not acting maliciously, he was not acting deceptively. Tyler was being a bully, for an insane reason, and was getting called out on it. His position was absurd and he got busted on it, hard. I used to really, really like Tyler. Chalk me up for the anti-fan club now. This whole thing has been a ridiculous sideshow, and he's acted like a child throughout. Wow. I agree with your first three paragraphs. In fact, Tyler would even agree with your first - he couldn't properly articulate what he wanted to say (~20 pages ago?). But to join this hypothetical "anti-fan club"? I basically just read your post as 3 body paragraphs explaining how to act mature, followed by a conclusion with the perfect example of how to act immature.
hope you're not talking about me, I didn't mention no hate club or w/e
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On May 04 2011 15:31 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:29 Raiznhell wrote:
I hate how hypocritical Tyler is being lately, just a few SotG's ago he was talking about winning and losing scenarios and how Zerg should lose once Toss gets that insane Deathball comparing it to Terran Mech play in BW where when Terran is maxed and at 3:3 that should be their victory. Yet when it's TvP in SCII and Terran maxes out on upgraded Thors Hellions and sends some SCVs to repair that shouldn't be a winning scenario for Terran. Toss should be able to instantly break that down by spamming Feedback on an army it takes a whole game to assemble.
SotG has turned into an incredibly Protoss biased show now where any concerns Terran and Zerg have are washed aside and all things Protoss related are discussed in insane detail.
SlayerS_MMA, IMLosira and STBomber are doing amazingly lately and MMA's amazing "Legend Killer" status in the GSTL were never discussed in depth but yet any boring PvP ever played is like completely broken down and analyzed.
Yeah I get there's the one off time where like Thorzain, Jinro and Idra are discussed but what about Korean players. Also iNcontroL calling IMMvp stale when he's one of two Terrans that have ever done Mech in TvP on GSL EVER I mean the guy mixes things up a lot. I'm a Terran but I'm not sure comparing TvP and PvZ equally makes any sense, getting to a 200/200 army as a terran vs toss, and as a toss vs zerg is obviously entirely different, whether it be easier for the terran or the toss
No, it's actually not entirely different. It's the same basic situation. Deathball that takes entire game to make and upgrade vs more mobile weaker army.
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On May 04 2011 15:33 Securitate wrote:
Lol iNcontrol you troll, you're probably one of my favorite SC2 players as far as personality goes. State of the game would be a lot less entertaining without you.
Yeah, I wouldn't watch Sotg if iNcontrol wasn't on it. I really only watch it for the humor and he provides the most of it.
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On May 04 2011 15:28 StUfF wrote:I think alot of the issue comes down to how you interpreted Colbi's words. Even though he had the facts his statment of "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate." I felt had a negative connotation towards TL (especially since this is his JOB) and well withholding information is always I feel a bit shady. He only provided further facts when responding to Tyler's needling. His PR talk also tries to paint that all the EU teams agree when if you read closely they have not even been consulted. How were you affected by his response? Poll: "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate."Neutral Response (75) 60% Negative Response (49) 39% Positive Response (2) 2% 126 total votes Your vote: "Liquid was invited, but chose not to participate." (Vote): Negative Response
(Vote): Neutral Response
(Vote): Positive Response
Honestly.. is it THAT big of a deal... seriously guys. I know I've said it a few times... but come on... he simply worded things in a bland way and everyone is blowing it way out of proportion.
Many people have said things (like any regular poster) that can be quoted and used against them because it is straight out bad or wrong... but in this case it isn't even inherently "bad"... it was just bland. He chose not to speak on behalf of TL for their intentions, but he mentioned that they declined an invitation. Obviously if TL wanted to respond to that (which they did) then they could respond in the same thread (which they did) and everything wouldn't be a big deal... so why did this become a big deal?
Because some people let their emotions get into it, making the debate heated... and from then on bias and fanboyism took over.
Look... you can think whatever you like... but at the end of the day you can't seriously think that his wording on that sentence is THAT BIG OF A DEAL. You can think iNcontroL is a jackass (I don't think that by any means), you can think Tyler is a god amongst men, you can think EG is evil and greedy or whatever... but can you honestly tell me that a single sentence generic and true sentence is really that damaging? Really? Anyone?
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On May 04 2011 15:33 Securitate wrote:
Lol iNcontrol you troll, you're probably one of my favorite SC2 players as far as personality goes. State of the game would be a lot less entertaining without you.
really agree with this! <3 iNcontroL!!!! his rants are the best :D :D :D
Though i think SotG would be a lot less interesting with all the people, its not like theres one person holding up the cast, everyone is amazing! they have the biggest names in american SC2 all together talking about the game as friends, its friggin perfect
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On May 04 2011 15:25 Duoma wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:06 Flowjo wrote:On May 04 2011 15:00 Namu wrote:On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote:
I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power. Many of us have posted here. It was pretty disgusting to watch. I was on that train long ago. I really don't understand how people can't see through him....he's just a very self-centered person While it may be true that Incontrol is a moderately self-centered person, I think it's going a bit far to assume his motives are manipulative. It's also just kind of silly to infer what Geoff is like in real life because of his behavior on the internet. Relative anonymity changes things a great deal. I'm not trying to defend Incontrol being a condescending asshole at times, but really everyone on SoTG is guilty of that at one point or another. There is just no point in discussing this "self-centeredness"(we'll ignore the irony here for now) because it really feeds into itself. People comment on Geoff's comments in threads, and then he comes in and makes a snarky comment about his impact on thread-making, and really all it's doing is feeding into any narcissistic tendencies that he may have. TL:DR: Endlessly talking about how Incontrol is self-centered is just going to egg him on into acting that way. Frankly people should stop hyper-analyzing everything the guy says, but MOST OF ALL, he should stop worrying so much about what people are saying about him. Constantly talking about people talking about you is not a good argument against your own narcissism. /rant
I was in your shoes a few weeks ago, someday you will see it. I hope that I'm wrong. I really do, It would be great for the community if I am. But his lack of actual real responses is just ridiculous. He knows Idra is partially right, which is why he never gives a solution, only pulls the "oh thats Idra bming" card out. And he attempts to show dominance when tyler is struggling to make a point. If he isn't really shallow, then he does a hell of a job at making it seem like he is.
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EPT
