Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 345

On December 09 2010 01:33 GoldenH wrote:
Chronoboost is irrelevant late game for the simple reason of you have more production buildings than you can afford to use. What's the point of chronoboosting a zealot out when all it means is that that one Warp Gate will be out of synch with the other three? It's alright if you still have some upgrades out, but better to save up chronoboosts for when you're rebuilding your army to 200 than brainlessly use it every single time you can on anything.

Midgame you'll need the extra buildings for tech switch. Late game, you just use whatever ones to make the unit mix you want.

It's a really complex but really useful that will probably take protoss years to fully develop.

On December 09 2010 01:18 Dystisis wrote:

That's not how stuff works.

If you consistently CB your Gateways, you will need less gateways (probably around 1 less Gateway per 5 Gateways if you CB them with two Nexuses -- admittedly I am just pulling numbers out of my ass here but I'd say it's around there somewhere), to produce the same units in the same time for the same cost. However, you'll have money spared from not building the additional Gateway.

The more Nexuses you have and use the CB of, the less Gateways will you need to produce X amount of units for same cost because you can produce out of the existing Gateways faster.

So in the late game, with consistent CB, you will realistically have spared around enough money to build an additional Nexus, all the while having the same sized army as you would otherwise, etc.

A Nexus out of thin air, not bad.

On December 09 2010 01:18 Dystisis wrote:

That's not how stuff works.

If you consistently CB your Gateways, you will need less gateways (probably around 1 less Gateway per 5 Gateways if you CB them with two Nexuses -- admittedly I am just pulling numbers out of my ass here but I'd say it's around there somewhere), to produce the same units in the same time for the same cost. However, you'll have money spared from not building the additional Gateway.

The more Nexuses you have and use the CB of, the less Gateways will you need to produce X amount of units for same cost because you can produce out of the existing Gateways faster.

So in the late game, with consistent CB, you will realistically have spared around enough money to build an additional Nexus, all the while having the same sized army as you would otherwise, etc.

A Nexus out of thin air, not bad.

On December 09 2010 02:04 Defacer wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong here but maybe part of the problem is that:

a) chronoboost speeds up production/spends money faster.
b) mules increase income.
c) larvae increase potential production capacity.

Zerg and Toss are at a disadvantage, because they need a strong income to even take advantage of these abilities. And it's harder for a Toss to expand than a Zerg.

On December 09 2010 02:04 Defacer wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong here but maybe part of the problem is that:

a) chronoboost speeds up production/spends money faster.
b) mules increase income.
c) larvae increase potential production capacity.

Zerg and Toss are at a disadvantage, because they need a strong income to even take advantage of these abilities. And it's harder for a Toss to expand than a Zerg.

On December 09 2010 01:41 MrCon wrote:

But why ? Why not have very refined build that take chronoboost in consideration for how much structure you'll need ? (I know this is not very easy, but that implies that protosses build will evolve for a very long time before reaching perfection imo)

On December 09 2010 03:30 GoldenH wrote:


Chronoboost can only be of very limited help anyway.

- Chronoboost can't help with tech switch, as all Protoss techs switches are reliant on building speeds.

- If you just want a bigger army, it's better to chronoboost out more probes and get another production building. (Exception: Zealot or Phoenix or dual stalker rush, you can get a critical number of zealot/stalkers off 2 gateways or phoenix off 1 starport than by getting more production structures. )

- Chronoboost CAN help with getting some upgrades faster (the notable exception to the rule is hallucination, never CB that).

- Chronoboost CAN help if you need a specific unit out ASAP (Getting that first zealot, sentry or stalker out is a big one) or for a timing push (I have for instance a build where I get the fastest possible warp prism to harass Zerg. I have a build where I delay getting Colossus and then CB them out of 3-4 Robos at once. I used to CB VRs out but now they're lol.)

I mean if I've found these uses, I'm sure all the pros have too. There will be no kewl discovery of new things to do with CB unless blizzard changes the game to introduce new uses for CB.

Almost all this stuff happens in the first 5 minutes, and everyone agrees, it's only late game where Protoss' lets CB store up, and I'm saying, that's because the only use once you have enough probes (that always happens 12 minutes in) is to CB all your structures at once to rebuild your army ASAP after a fight.

On December 09 2010 03:46 Dr.Frost wrote:
I know this is going to get buried and no one will read it, I didn't want to make a whole new thread just to get this up. Maybe if someone from SOTG wants to pass this recommendation on to the TL admin's if they think it is a good idea.

Idea for the TL forums. A ranking system. Not based on the amount of posts, or even the quality of posts, but rather just based on the most recent post. At the bottom right of each post in a thread, add a + and - sign so if readers think someone is trolling or being rude and not actually helping in the discussion, then the posts will be minimized into just a small link that says something like this 'This post has been down ranked, click to read'. This way, everyone can still post, and if there is something everyone in the thread hates it won't be there on the front of the page. It will just get minimized and if people still want to see what they specific person had to say they just need to click the link. This used to be the system they used on Engadget, but they have changed their commenting system recently. I cannot really give a link to any examples of this so hopefully my description makes some sense.

On December 09 2010 02:09 Dystisis wrote:

This is still a slight misrepresentation, because increased production speed or capacity can still be economically beneficial. That was the point of my last post as well.

With CB for example, you can CB your Gateways and it will lead you to needing less Gateways. In effect, this saves you money. Used correctly, it does not lead to increased spending. That is not even mentioning the fact that it can be used to produce Probes, or can save you money for a Nexus (in the longer run). These two are also true of larvae injection.

That said, Mules have an obvious advantage when it comes to mineral income, but that is also entirely limited to it (this is not considering Supply Drop/Scan, which are both useful but comparatively straight forward advantages).

I would say that both Protoss and Zerg have very complex special mechanics, but Protoss less obviously so.

On December 09 2010 03:59 Dystisis wrote:

You are just seeing one side of the effect of Chronoboost, as I have been saying, consistently Chronoboosting just any Gateway building (or any fighting-unit production building) necessitates less of that building type. This is not a "discovery", but a subtle effect that will result in needing less Gateways (or other production building) for the same army size, potentially saving you hundreds of minerals in any given game to be spent in expanding your economy or army further.

Another way to say it: It will make your production buildings (Gateways, Robos, Stargates) more effective, so if you need X amount of units over 5 minutes, it will take less production buildings to produce that. This frees up money to be spent on economy and even bigger army production down the line.

On December 09 2010 04:01 yamato77 wrote:

I think the admins have enough control over the site, it doesn't need to devolve into youtube with users ranking each other's posts. They do a fine job moderating and weeding out horrible posters. This kind of thing seems incredibly irritating on a forum where heated debates occur and one side is staunchly against the other. Having one side downvote your post so no one else sees your points would feel bad if you spent 20-30 minutes writing up a good argument, only to have biased users ruin it.