EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 347
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
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Crichton
Japan196 Posts
On December 09 2010 09:13 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any more boring... there was a CB discussion -________- Hey, if I have to listen to 30 minutes of discussion on a Fungal nerf that isn't even happening, I think you can put up with having to scan past a few paragraphs of theorycrafting on the actual game. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 09 2010 08:56 Crichton wrote: I can't say I agree with this. It's not like rushing to stim long before you're actually going to attack. Most Protosses are only going to have 1 Forge early game, and getting +1 Attack faster means you can get +1 Armor or +2 Attack faster. Until that first, necessary upgrade finishes, you can't move onto the next one. And Colossi are pretty much useless until Thermal Lance is done (see: Choya versus Jinro). If your opponent is rushing to Mutas, then you're going to need Blink faster, and you won't know about it until it's too late. HTs are rather useless until both the upgrades are done…I can't think of a single upgrade for Toss that wouldn't benefit from coming faster. I agree with the Forge part. If you are actively going for multiple upgrades and you have an important upgrade timing then there will be a major benefit from Chronoboosts. However, you don't always want to do that, and other times it may not be safe enough to spend CBs on Forge. Thermal Lance is similar. Even without Chronoboosting, you'll almost always get Thermal Lance on time and probably before you get a critical number of Colossi ready to move out (Of course, forgetting to actually start it is bad fo'u =P) I guess what I'm trying to say is that there should be a clear reason and a clear advantage to be gained for each spent CB. If there isn't, then it should be saved as it allows you to react and adapt faster as the game progresses. On December 09 2010 08:56 Crichton wrote:So would you agree that there's a balance to be found between 200/200 and 0/200? I'm not saying 25/200 is ideal, just suggesting that it be used for practice and experimentation until a the best balance is found. It is actually 100/100, my bad (I never realized this until now, I only memorized it's got enough for 4 CBs =D). Anyway, I personally tend to "chop off" the last 25 energy of each Nexus in regular macro, but from mid game on I only use the remaining energy for a very specific planned purpose. On 2+ bases, spending 25 off each Nexus is usually enough for research purposes, and having 3/4 energy on two Nexuses (Nexii? =P) actually makes me feel quite a bit safer during the game. | ||
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Teivospylol
Djibouti47 Posts
On December 09 2010 08:44 Crichton wrote: Tyler, have you tried getting one fewer warp gate, an earlier Forge, and then staying on top of CBing? I understand the concept of 'saving up' chronos, but if you have two Nexuses sitting at 100/100, then every moment you're not chronoing *something* is energy you're never going to get back. It's all about having builds that continue to be brutally efficient even into the mid-game. Everyone is great at chronoing in the early game because they have their builds worked out really nicely. If you're maxing out on energy, then your build *could be better*. Someone else doing exactly what you're doing, but not maxing, will do better. Here are some analogous situations: 1. Maxing on energy is similar to a Terran who doesn't get Mules, sitting on 200/200 until after he's already fought a battle. He thinks he was keeping his money low, but he didn't realize how much money he'd never have because he was maxing on energy. 2. Building more production structures than you need is similar to a Zerg who builds extra Hatcheries instead of using Spawn Larva will similarly think he's keeping his money low by building extra production structures, but he's actually missing out on extra production he could be doing because he spent too much money up front. Look at Jinro in the GSL, forcing his SCVs to go to certain mineral patches. Certainly that can't make more than a couple minerals here or there, but it's that sort of edge that he needs to stay ahead. Obviously you're a great player and everything, and I'm horrible. But if I can see a big difference between when I let myself max out on energy (even when I'm planning to chrono later on) and when I'm constantly staying on top of chronoing, I think you could see the same leap. Maybe it would be worth a practice session where you keep 25 energy saved on each Nexus for when you are planning to need quick higher-tier units, but otherwise you chrono everything you can. What's the harm in having a bigger army faster? What's the harm in having more probes faster? Or +1 faster? In having to build fewer production buildings? That's not a bad idea, even if it sounds like it would make everything insane as far as staying on top of probe production. It would help with my suggestion to keep energy low but not *too* low, in case you have a major use for Chrono like Tyler referred to. he said he saves up chronoboosts if it isn't required in his build incase something happens (ie gets harassed or lets his money get high) and he needs to catch up. Using chronoboost to get time you lost back instead of using it to try to get ahead when you don't need to be ahead (ie faster +1 but who cares if you aren't going to be using it because of the build you're doing, or more probes in late game but who cares if your bases are saturated) is a pretty good way to go about things, especially at nony's level where harass / pressure is common | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 09 2010 09:21 Crichton wrote: Hey, if I have to listen to 30 minutes of discussion on a Fungal nerf that isn't even happening, I think you can put up with having to scan past a few paragraphs of theorycrafting on the actual game. You don't HAVE to listen to my podcast. But I absolutely can comment on a boring ass segment of this thread. | ||
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Crichton
Japan196 Posts
Talin said: Thermal Lance is similar. Even without Chronoboosting, you'll almost always get Thermal Lance on time and probably before you get a critical number of Colossi ready to move out. Yes, before *you* are ready to move out. But what if your opponent moves on you? I hear so many Protosses complaining about Terrans being OP in early game. Could it be because their armies are weaker than they should be, or not as upgraded as they should be, when a Terran does a big timing push? I know you feel safe if you feel you can be reactionary, but think of how much energy you have if you have 75 energy on 2 or 3 bases. How much can you really do with that when you see something to react to? If there are Mutas in your base, chronoing Blink at this point isn't going to keep your probes from dying. If you realize the Terran went double E-Bay, it's now a little too late to start chronoing out those upgrades. Talin said: Anyway, I personally tend to "chop off" the last 25 energy of each Nexus in regular macro, but from mid game on I only use the remaining energy for a very specific planned purpose. Having 3/4 energy on two Nexuses (Nexii? =P) actually makes me feel quite a bit safer during the game. Here's my thing: your macro is *going* to slip. You're going to forget Chronoboosts during battles and while scouting and while pressuring. You're going to. So you're *always* going to have energy sitting and waiting for in case you need to react to something. So why, if you're always going to have a bit of 'safety net' energy saved up anyway, do you need to sacrifice faster upgrades, production, and income when you're not in a panicked, reactionary state? Incontrol said: You don't HAVE to listen to my podcast. But I absolutely can comment on a boring ass segment of this thread. I'd rather talk about chronoboosting—recall that we're talking about it because you brought it up—than slog through ten pages about what a racist someone on the podcast is. You say 'boring,' I say 'a breather from the normal stupidity on display in the SOTG thread.' | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 09 2010 09:33 Crichton wrote: Yes, before *you* are ready to move out. But what if your opponent moves on you? I hear so many Protosses complaining about Terrans being OP in early game. Could it be because their armies are weaker than they should be, or not as upgraded as they should be, when a Terran does a big timing push? But that's exactly the sort of situation that we save our Chronoboosts for in the first place. If the idea was to just [mc]spend spend spend[/mc], you might have just wasted CBs on Probes or +1 Attack that won't be finished or Gateways but you built Stalkers instead of Sentries, etc. I'm not advocating saving up for the sake of saving up, I'm talking about spending it when you know you need it and when you know what you need it for. For example to repel an early timing push that you (should) know is coming. On December 09 2010 09:33 Crichton wrote: If there are Mutas in your base, chronoing Blink at this point isn't going to keep your probes from dying. If you realize the Terran went double E-Bay, it's now a little too late to start chronoing out those upgrades. Well if you realize/scout these things too late, having Chronoboosted wrong things ahead of time will not be too helpful. Having saved up CBs actually does help more in those circumstances, but again not too much. Nothing can substitute lack of information on your opponent and CBs have nothing to do with that. You're only safe if you Chronoboosted the right things ahead of time, ie. if you just winged it and guessed it. But one of the key points of Starcraft is to not blindly prepare ahead for things that may or may not be coming. On December 09 2010 09:33 Crichton wrote: Here's my thing: your macro is *going* to slip. You're going to forget Chronoboosts during battles and while scouting and while pressuring. You're going to. So you're *always* going to have energy sitting and waiting for in case you need to react to something. So why, if you're always going to have a bit of 'safety net' energy saved up anyway, do you need to sacrifice faster upgrades, production, and income when you're not in a panicked, reactionary state? Well that's a problem one would fix by improving one's mechanics. =p Those extra upgrades and production and Probes cost money and might not be the right choice at the time or cripple you at a critical moment when you need two quick production cycles. | ||
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Basic
Canada288 Posts
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echO [W]
United States1495 Posts
On December 09 2010 10:05 CanadianStarcraft wrote: Can this be listened to live? Yes, usually the show is done every Tuesday 8:30 PST at http://www.ustream.tv/channel/state-of-the-game | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On December 09 2010 09:26 {88}iNcontroL wrote: You don't HAVE to listen to my podcast. But I absolutely can comment on a boring ass segment of this thread. Dude, I actually think it's kind of exciting. If Protoss hasn't perfected or figured out a way to better incorporate chronoboost better in the mid-to-late game, that means there's there a lot more room for improvement for Protoss in general. I was wondering if the same could be said for the other races ... is a guy like IdrA close to the macro ceiling, or is there still any room for him to improve his macro? When I watch guys like Idra or Jinro, they seem so on top of their mules and queens and creep its hard to imagine they can improve in that aspect in the game ... but then again I stink at the game overall, so I'm a poor judge. | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On December 09 2010 09:26 {88}iNcontroL wrote: You don't HAVE to listen to my podcast. But I absolutely can comment on a boring ass segment of this thread. I wonder what would happen if I paid you to teach me how to chronoboost  . Things would certainly change.Well nvm it would still be boring. | ||
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ScarletKnight
United States691 Posts
I know we're discussing stuff that was talked about on the show, but seriously, this thread is turning into a strategy forum and there's a reason why no one likes that place. So much win has been produced in this thread (where is artosis video, photoshops, jokes) and now it's just a place where people fight about theory and bitch about accents. I hate being harsh like this and I'm not pointing any fingers but I think this thread needs to stop with the theory. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
First people complained about the show and the hosts, than people complained about people complaining, and now people are complaining about people discussing actual topics or ideas raised on the show. JEEBUS FUCKING CHRIST. The only thing left for us to do is start a fan club and circle jerk each other into oblivion. | ||
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Liquid_Ecstasy
United States35 Posts
JEEBUS FUCKING CHRIST. The only thing left for us to do is start a fan club and circle jerk each other into oblivion. I think he has a point here, exciting AND it gives Artosis a reason to jerk off Idra. And for the record, CB is boring. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
You don't HAVE to listen to my podcast Now it's his podcast.  | ||
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Tears.Of.The.Moon
Slovenia715 Posts
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
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Contagious
United States1319 Posts
Well, technically it is.. along with JP, Day, and Tyler. | ||
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