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So I am going to make a bold statement that completely oversimplifies the subject, so people have something to flame.
Protoss has the potential to comfortably become the best race.
What I mean by that is that every aspect of the game that lets better players surpass weaker ones increases the imaginary "best race" score. Mules vs Scan vs Supply and Larva vs Tumors have their own set of demands. If you miss one, you make up for it as you can. Chrono boosting, however, is different in that it applies to the whole of the game. Now often we will want to CB our Nexus because Probes are imba, as Day9 recently said, but the fact that one can use it as a great economic boost early and an incredible "I am better strategically" tool later means that, as protoss players get used to the incredible demands of their race, we will see more precise CB usage to greater effect and the results are going to be HUGE.
For example, let's say you want a quick +2 off 2 base as Protoss for some sweet Stalker heavy timing push (Okay that is awful, but let's pretend Stalkers finally scale properly). Your build could either invest in a forge earlier to make sure you get both in time, but maybe you find that the 150 minerals early makes you miss some production or that it is too quick of a giveaway. Now, instead, you can design a build that let's you play a normal 2 base game, while banking CB on the sly, and then throw down your Forge a minute later, constantly CB out +1 and +2 as your Blink upgrade finishes, to get to the same point more efficiently. Now you squeezed out 2-3 extra units, because that Forge got to become 2-3 more probes much earlier since you didn't need to the 150 until a time when you had gotten both bases under optimal production. My point is that you can shape entire builds around CB, but we haven't really seen that.
On another important note, seeing as all middlegames tend to converge into 1 of 2 or 3 builds for each race, let's consider opening sequences. Terran has 1-3 Rax, then Factory, then Starport, with an expansion as appropriate as the entire gamut of their openings Now this could be Marines, Marauders, Hellions, Banshees, MMM, Tanks, etc, but the decision is what units to make and (to a lesser extent) the order to get the buildings, but the structures tend to all be the same composition, so it is a decision what units to go given a structure set, but the amount of units and resources invested doesn't vary hugely given completely different compositions built from the same structures.. So in terms of ways just to get the structures and not what you do with them, Terran has 2-3 different build sequences. Zerg has Pool or Hatch into the other before adding Lair or Roach Den first and then the other. I am not here to say that 16 Hatch Pool isn't different dramatically than 15 Pool into 20ish Hatch, but still the numbers are around 3-4 solid standards openings from Zerg in terms of sequence of structures and their effects.
For anyone who has player Protoss, you can definitely say, that while 3 Gate Robo is pretty standard to get up your 2nd base, Gate-Robo-Gate-Gate is markedly different than 2 gate-robo-gate, which is markedly different from 3 gates before Robo. These openings converge much later than the other races due in large part to production cycles, CB, and Warp Gate tech. This isn't just decision making, but having which structures when ends up shaping the Protoss early midgame and late-earlygame much more than the other races due to their game mechanics. This allows them to use superior strategic understanding to get just enough Gateways at the right times to hold off enemy pushes while maximizing tech or economy in a way that is not seen to as great of extent in the other races. I expect we are going to start seeing a 10 gate expand or something similar where CB is used predominantly on units early to skimp on Gateway production to cheat out earlier and earlier expos without the razor thin margin of error we currently see in common FE builds.
I expect another 2-3 months before people will cry out that Protoss is completely abusive and indestructible whether or not any buffs actually happen. It just takes time to work out how to optimize a race that is so flexible and adaptive.
For the record, I play T and P at a 2:1 ratio, and played Zerg for most of the Beta. I have always been mid-level diamond without significant variation. So maybe I am missing something a better player can inform me of.
EDIT: This is in response to Tyler's comments about why CB isn't being used effectively and the whole discussion of what CB means to the Protoss race.
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On December 09 2010 04:14 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 04:01 yamato77 wrote:On December 09 2010 03:46 Dr.Frost wrote:
I know this is going to get buried and no one will read it, I didn't want to make a whole new thread just to get this up. Maybe if someone from SOTG wants to pass this recommendation on to the TL admin's if they think it is a good idea.
Idea for the TL forums. A ranking system. Not based on the amount of posts, or even the quality of posts, but rather just based on the most recent post. At the bottom right of each post in a thread, add a + and - sign so if readers think someone is trolling or being rude and not actually helping in the discussion, then the posts will be minimized into just a small link that says something like this 'This post has been down ranked, click to read'. This way, everyone can still post, and if there is something everyone in the thread hates it won't be there on the front of the page. It will just get minimized and if people still want to see what they specific person had to say they just need to click the link. This used to be the system they used on Engadget, but they have changed their commenting system recently. I cannot really give a link to any examples of this so hopefully my description makes some sense. I think the admins have enough control over the site, it doesn't need to devolve into youtube with users ranking each other's posts. They do a fine job moderating and weeding out horrible posters. This kind of thing seems incredibly irritating on a forum where heated debates occur and one side is staunchly against the other. Having one side downvote your post so no one else sees your points would feel bad if you spent 20-30 minutes writing up a good argument, only to have biased users ruin it. How about if downvoting doesn't minimize a post, but calls a moderators attention to it?
Before all that fancy stuff, we should have least have a non prehistoric forum, with a link to the last message you have read in a topic, so you don't have to browse 10 pages to remember what you have read and what you didn't ><
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So on a happier side note- Artosis's Power Level has reached over 9000! Surely when he becomes Majitastosis the world will emplode.
So many good laughs from that last episode. Really.
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I was really glad to hear Geoff call out Protosses on not using Chronoboost. It really is a misunderstood skill, and part of the reason why Protoss is looking so weak right now. Every upgrade could be faster, you can have a higher probe count, and you can build fewer production buildings. But you have to stay on top of your CBing, which is quite difficult, especially because there's no way to know how much energy you have saved up if you have more than one Nexus on a hotkey.
I think once Protosses start figuring CB out, we'll see them start to look OP. The game may even have to be rebalanced to make up for it.
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Been watching Tyler(nony)'s stream, in the last 3 games at around 10-15 minutes, both his Nexus are sitting there are 200/200 
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On December 09 2010 07:56 Fa1nT wrote:Been watching Tyler(nony)'s stream, in the last 3 games at around 10-15 minutes, both his Nexus are sitting there are 200/200
true, he owned people but hes got room for improvement. 
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On December 09 2010 07:44 Crichton wrote:
I was really glad to hear Geoff call out Protosses on not using Chronoboost. It really is a misunderstood skill, and part of the reason why Protoss is looking so weak right now. Every upgrade could be faster, you can have a higher probe count, and you can build fewer production buildings. But you have to stay on top of your CBing, which is quite difficult, especially because there's no way to know how much energy you have saved up if you have more than one Nexus on a hotkey.
I think once Protosses start figuring CB out, we'll see them start to look OP. The game may even have to be rebalanced to make up for it.
Putting a cease and desist order on myself immediately. That may be the best answer we have.
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On December 09 2010 08:00 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 07:44 Crichton wrote:
I was really glad to hear Geoff call out Protosses on not using Chronoboost. It really is a misunderstood skill, and part of the reason why Protoss is looking so weak right now. Every upgrade could be faster, you can have a higher probe count, and you can build fewer production buildings. But you have to stay on top of your CBing, which is quite difficult, especially because there's no way to know how much energy you have saved up if you have more than one Nexus on a hotkey.
I think once Protosses start figuring CB out, we'll see them start to look OP. The game may even have to be rebalanced to make up for it. Putting a cease and desist order on myself immediately. That may be the best answer we have.
What now?
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Canada1637 Posts
On December 09 2010 07:44 Crichton wrote:
I was really glad to hear Geoff call out Protosses on not using Chronoboost. It really is a misunderstood skill, and part of the reason why Protoss is looking so weak right now. Every upgrade could be faster, you can have a higher probe count, and you can build fewer production buildings. But you have to stay on top of your CBing, which is quite difficult, especially because there's no way to know how much energy you have saved up if you have more than one Nexus on a hotkey.
I think once Protosses start figuring CB out, we'll see them start to look OP. The game may even have to be rebalanced to make up for it.
Ye I totally agree, no Terran would get caught with more than 100 energy on their OCs unless they're mined out or dealing with DTs/Banshees etc, and the best zerg are always active with their Queens, but basically every protoss seems to drop off on choroboosts 10mins into the game unless its something essential like thermal lance or templar upgrades....
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8748 Posts
On December 09 2010 07:56 Fa1nT wrote:Been watching Tyler(nony)'s stream, in the last 3 games at around 10-15 minutes, both his Nexus are sitting there are 200/200
it's pretty simple. when you've made more production facilities than you can simultaneously use because of tech switches (like i have a stargate, 4 warpgates, and a robotics facility, and at some points i was only using some of them, but in mid game im using all of them at once) then there's nothing to chronoboost. i spend my money without it. my probe saturation was good -- i was making probes only to saturate a 3rd base that wasnt up yet, so no reason to chrono boost that. and my money was staying low. i can CB forge and that's about it. but if im not hitting a specific timing with it, there's no point. if i can go all the way to +3, i'll put more effort into boosting forge. but when im stuck at +1 only, and i plan to be stuck there for a bit, then i dont really bother.
so i think there are very minor uses of CB in that situation, but instead of going with those minor uses, i'd rather max out energy and wait for a major use of CB. like if my macro slips and i have too much money, then yeah i can boost every building and get an extra round out to cover that mistake. or if i lose a bunch of probes to harass or something, then i have CB to use on nexuses. if i suddenly need more of one kind of unit, like if i want to make a ton of phoenix or void ray, then i make a 2nd stargate and use chrono boost only on stargates. if i lose a fight and he has a ton of roaches left over, i can give robotics 3-4 chrono boosts of immortals.
once i get my 3rd base up, chrono boost is a good way to transition from having too few production buildings to having the proper number. extra income comes from 3rd base, i make more buildings. before they finish, i have extra income again. i have ~9 chrono boosts to use, which is about 1.5-2 boosts per building, so i go ahead and burn those. when im out of chrono boost, my new buildings are up, and now i have a proper number of buildings matching my income. then i save chrono boost for whatever situation it's useful for next
there are builds and situations where i constantly use chrono boost. actually in pvt it's far more common but i think the pvt games i played were kinda weird. but pvt i usually go from normal chrono boosting, to CB'ing probes, to CB'ing colossi, to CB'ing charge research and +1 weapons, then saving up as stargates build and CB'ing them. i have my energy use planned out through ~17 minutes of game time. my nexuses get high on energy, or may briefly hit 100, and then you see what i was saving for and they get used intelligently and efficiently. but i cant play like that every game
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Just means I'm gonna try and stop doing that Crichton. I'm going put my Nexi on multiple hotkeys like suggested, so I can check energy without looking at my main.
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it's pretty simple. when you've made more production facilities than you can simultaneously use because of tech switches (like i have a stargate, 4 warpgates, and a robotics facility, and at some points i was only using some of them, but in mid game im using all of them at once) then there's nothing to chronoboost
Tyler, have you tried getting one fewer warp gate, an earlier Forge, and then staying on top of CBing?
I understand the concept of 'saving up' chronos, but if you have two Nexuses sitting at 100/100, then every moment you're not chronoing *something* is energy you're never going to get back.
It's all about having builds that continue to be brutally efficient even into the mid-game. Everyone is great at chronoing in the early game because they have their builds worked out really nicely. If you're maxing out on energy, then your build *could be better*. Someone else doing exactly what you're doing, but not maxing, will do better.
Here are some analogous situations:
1. Maxing on energy is similar to a Terran who doesn't get Mules, sitting on 200/200 until after he's already fought a battle. He thinks he was keeping his money low, but he didn't realize how much money he'd never have because he was maxing on energy.
2. Building more production structures than you need is similar to a Zerg who builds extra Hatcheries instead of using Spawn Larva will similarly think he's keeping his money low by building extra production structures, but he's actually missing out on extra production he could be doing because he spent too much money up front.
Look at Jinro in the GSL, forcing his SCVs to go to certain mineral patches. Certainly that can't make more than a couple minerals here or there, but it's that sort of edge that he needs to stay ahead.
Obviously you're a great player and everything, and I'm horrible. But if I can see a big difference between when I let myself max out on energy (even when I'm planning to chrono later on) and when I'm constantly staying on top of chronoing, I think you could see the same leap.
Maybe it would be worth a practice session where you keep 25 energy saved on each Nexus for when you are planning to need quick higher-tier units, but otherwise you chrono everything you can. What's the harm in having a bigger army faster? What's the harm in having more probes faster? Or +1 faster? In having to build fewer production buildings?
Just means I'm gonna try and stop doing that Crichton. I'm going put my Nexi on multiple hotkeys like suggested, so I can check energy without looking at my main.
That's not a bad idea, even if it sounds like it would make everything insane as far as staying on top of probe production. It would help with my suggestion to keep energy low but not *too* low, in case you have a major use for Chrono like Tyler referred to.
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You can't compare CB to Mules in that regard (and especially not to Larva Inject). For a Terran, there are very few cases where he would not want to Mule (and most of those cases involve saving up for a scan).
It's a completely different mechanic for Protoss. Saving up CBs allows you to get a big army ball fast at the exact moment when you need it (either as an emergency measure or for a timing push), with the exact composition that you need, and in case of Gateway units exactly where you need them to be. This is often times more effective than macroing regularly with CB as it packs a stronger punch and gives you extra flexibility that Protoss often desperately need.
On the other hand, not all researches have to be CBd - often you don't get much benefit out of having them a little earlier (unless your whole strategy is designed around that timing). Spending it on Probes excessively leads to oversaturation and take up excessive supply.
Ideally you don't want to waste Nexus energy by staying on 200/200 for long, but keeping it to like < 25 on each Nexus isn't something I particularly like either.
Edit: Meh, this thread moves too fast. =/
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On December 09 2010 08:52 Talin wrote:On the other hand, not all researches have to be CBd - often you don't get much benefit out of having them a little earlier (unless your whole strategy is designed around that timing).
I can't say I agree with this. It's not like rushing to stim long before you're actually going to attack. Most Protosses are only going to have 1 Forge early game, and getting +1 Attack faster means you can get +1 Armor or +2 Attack faster. Until that first, necessary upgrade finishes, you can't move onto the next one. And Colossi are pretty much useless until Thermal Lance is done (see: Choya versus Jinro). If your opponent is rushing to Mutas, then you're going to need Blink faster, and you won't know about it until it's too late. HTs are rather useless until both the upgrades are done…I can't think of a single upgrade for Toss that wouldn't benefit from coming faster.
Ideally you don't want to waste Nexus energy by staying on 200/200 for long, but keeping it to like < 25 on each Nexus isn't something I particularly like either.
So would you agree that there's a balance to be found between 100/100 and 0/100? I'm not saying 25/100 is ideal, just suggesting that it be used for practice and experimentation until a the best balance is found.
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It isn't as cut and dry as 1 chrono boost = 1 gateway. It just doesn't even remotely work like that. I feel like I could rant about mineral usage and compare the two and time but I am not going to because it would be a waste of time. I would rather have excess production then not and since you can't build two and a half gateways with your robo I think I will stick to three rather than lose because chronoboost makes my macro more imperfect.
In the long run 1 extra production building for emergency chronoboosts or for saving them for when they are needed is more than worth it.
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Crichton, why are you so big on using up your chronoboosting? Don't think of it like Spawn Larvae or Mules, things you should use right away for maximum benefit. It's more like Scan and Transfuse, strategically storing up energy to use it all at a critical time. Think of it as a kind of cosmetic makeup for improving the efficency of your builds. With Terran or Zerg you occasionally have to cut economy or production in order to keep all your energy and money low - Protoss doesn't need to do that, they can run at 100% all the time, never having a weak point to attack because chrono boost fills in the little dips that you normally see in a build.
There is no leap in power from keeping your chronoboost low late game. If you see an army on your doorstep, you want to chronoboost the latest wave of units out, great - but it does no good if you did it on the last wave of units and then waited a while to start this wave cuz you didn't have the money. There are so many reasons to save up energy and so little reason to use it besides some artifical standard of "good".
Getting +1 faster isn't going to get you +2 faster, unless you budget to do that. If it's not in your budget to get +2, all the chrono boosts in the world aren't going to help you unless it's part of a very specific timing window, and even then, it's not a better timing, just a different one.
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Would like to point out that in the games you were watching Tyler play on stream he spent half the time trying to figure out wtf his opponents were doing, because they were doing some wierd stuff indeed. Most people in this lack of a metagame will try to play as reactionary as possible which means they dont want to blow their chronos when they might need them later. Its just playing safe.
Edit: I said most people, HAHA, who am I kidding. Im refering to those who dont do blind timing attacks every game.
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The problem about cutting production facilities to save money and attempting to have CB take up the slack is that CB is so versatile and its applications so disparate across stages of the game, that when you encounter situations where you need to CB anything other than your production facilities, your production capacity will be severely limited. Say you're mining from 3 bases, pumping out of 6-7 constantly CB'd gateways, and suddenly you need to CB out some Void Rays, Air Weapons, Forge Ups, and Psionic Storm. Assuming high saturation, your money will bank up surprisingly quickly.
Basically CB's flexibility makes it difficult to plan and account for organically while playing, especially if you're playing a long and/or responsive game. Comparatively, OC and Queen energy have extremely strict, concrete applications with certain consequences in terms of information, assets, territory, etc.
That isn't to say that there isn't room for improvement in Protoss play in terms of CB use. There's no arguing the fact that letting a Nexus idle with 100 energy for several seconds is absolutely inefficient. I just want to say that reaching peak energy efficiency with Protoss requires complex considerations that may be ignored by rules of thumb like "build fewer warp gates and CB them religiously."
Unrelated:
I love how the SotG thread covers a wild hodgepodge of different topics, though some topics are less enjoyable (some far, far less so) than others.
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Crichton, why are you so big on using up your chronoboosting?
I play 2v2s with a friend of mine who also plays Protoss. He's in middish Diamond 1v1, whereas I'm in Gold because I lose to a lot of early pushes. My point is, we're pretty near to being the same skill level, or, at least, I'm not at a higher skill level.
When we play 2v2s together, I focus on always trying to keep my energy as low as possible. I can't keep it at 0, of course, it's simply impossible, so I usually end up with about 25-50 on each Nexus when I decide to do a round of CBing. Meanwhile, my friend frequently lets his Nexuses max out at 100—we need to be clear on this, Nexuses only hold 100 energy, not 200—after doing the typical chronoing out probes at the start of the game.
We run very similar builds. Usually something like a 3-gate robo into a lot of Collossi. My point is, at the mid and late game, I *hugely* outstrip him in production. My income is better, my army is bigger, and my upgrades are done faster. He often rushes to Blink as a build he does, but other than that, his abilities are researched slower.
When I ask him why he doesn't Chrono more, he gives me the same sort of reasons that people in this thread do: that he doesn't need to.
But if he doesn't need to, then why do I always seem to do better than him? I chalk it up to my Chronoing.
Is it *really* something that you've tried and have proved that it doesn't help?
Nexuses max out at energy very fast. It's not like Terran where you have 200 energy to play around with, so you barely ever max. A Toss who keeps his energy at 75 is going to do better than one who keeps his energy at 100. A Toss who keeps his energy at 50 is going to do better than one who keeps it at 75. Where do you start having diminishing returns? I'm not sure. Certainly any lower than 25 and you're not going to have energy when you really need it.
But especially mid and late game, where you have 3 or 4 bases: *try* using your chronos more. At least more than letting yourself max. I will be absolutely shocked if you don't find that you have a bigger, more upgraded army.
Assuming high saturation, your money will bank up surprisingly quickly.
I'm not saying you never get more production facilities. Currently, Tosses are using all their money without Chronoing, so they say it isn't needed. What they need to do is Chrono, and see what opportunities that opens for them. If you find that your money is banking too quickly, then build more production facilities. But, still Chrono. Chronoing doesn't cost you money, it saves you money (you need fewer production facilities, and your upgrades mean fewer of your army dudes die so they don't have to be rebuilt).
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any more boring... there was a CB discussion -________-
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EPT
