|
the difference between tl debates and us making predictions and complaints based on future patches is that most of us play this game a ton and have a really good understanding of it. obviously everything was said with the catch that all changes being discussed would be implemented, and that in mind our discussion was perfectly reasonable. theres a difference between a tl newbie saying oh my GOD fungal doesnt hit air battlecruisers are going to be overpowered now and saying that the mobility of phoenixs is going to cause zerg a lot of problems now.
as for complaints of the 'we play on korea' argument, we started by pointing out gameplay situations where having a phoenix or 2 faster would be really powerful, how it would nullify muta builds, how hydras arent adequate anti air without a freeze/slow spell, etc. we only started referencing the korean pvz style, including its use in gsl games, when the discussion turned to theorycrafting vs reality.
and anyone who thinks inc is now mortal enemies with me and artosis is fucking retarded. we're all really good friends who are really passionate about the game and enjoy arguing. believe it or not friends can call each other idiots without it being the end of the world.
|
the change has been lifted on the infestor but i still don't get why zergs like artosis and idra think that hydras arent adequate anti-air without a freeze/slowing spell.
Thats very similar to TvZ mutas where terran has no way of trapping them and all zergs have to do is fly around with the mutas never letting them die until you weaken the T enough or prevent him from expanding enough in order to 1a baneling it's what Nestea has been doing for the past 2 GSLs...
That's why terrans always have to all-in at the beginning to win against potential muta/ling/baneling by a monster macro zerg.
it just feels like zerg just woulda been put in a similar situation as Terran in the TvZ matchup
|
I thought Idra/Artosis had a good point about Zergs' antiair capabilities. It is kinda stupid that hydras and queens, zergs only two gta units, are incredibly slow...coupled with the fact that phoenixes, the fastest unit in the game, receives a buff. (irregardless of how much it will improve stargate play) Unfortunately, that argument was buried by authoritative arguments such as "we have more experience playing against phoenixes so we're right" and incontrol's continuous assault against their authority. But oh well, there's good points in there if you dig for them 
When you guys were talking about the exclusive forum idea on TL, it gave me idea: What if SOTG created their own forum? Everyone could read, but the only people that can post are people who've been on as guests on sotg. Would that get used, or would nobody use it?
|
On December 08 2010 09:26 IdrA wrote:
the difference between tl debates and us making predictions and complaints based on future patches is that most of us play this game a ton and have a really good understanding of it. obviously everything was said with the catch that all changes being discussed would be implemented, and that in mind our discussion was perfectly reasonable. theres a difference between a tl newbie saying oh my GOD fungal doesnt hit air battlecruisers are going to be overpowered now and saying that the mobility of phoenixs is going to cause zerg a lot of problems now.
as for complaints of the 'we play on korea' argument, we started by pointing out gameplay situations where having a phoenix or 2 faster would be really powerful, how it would nullify muta builds, how hydras arent adequate anti air without a freeze/slow spell, etc. we only started referencing the korean pvz style, including its use in gsl games, when the discussion turned to theorycrafting vs reality.
and anyone who thinks inc is now mortal enemies with me and artosis is fucking retarded. we're all really good friends who are really passionate about the game and enjoy arguing. believe it or not friends can call each other idiots without it being the end of the world.
How do you feel about the patch now that Blizzard is taking back some of the changes?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174896
|
On December 08 2010 09:52 Raiznhell wrote:
the change has been lifted on the infestor but i still don't get why zergs like artosis and idra think that hydras arent adequate anti-air without a freeze/slowing spell.
Thats very similar to TvZ mutas where terran has no way of trapping them and all zergs have to do is fly around with the mutas never letting them die until you weaken the T enough or prevent him from expanding enough in order to 1a baneling it's what Nestea has been doing for the past 2 GSLs...
The speed of Phoenixes (remember they're faster than Mutalisks) isn't comparable.
Hydralisks can defend against Phoenixes but they have to be in the area that the Phoenixes are attacking. Once they're off creep, they're extremely slow. So Zerg is essentially trapped in their base.
A unit that would do well against the Phoenix are Queens due to its range, but in this case, the Phoenixes will obviously just lift the Queen then kill it, and doesn't answer the "moving out" problem.
Terrans can handle Mutas because Marines have Stim. Mutalisks are still faster but some will still be caught with Stimmed Marines. Thors, while immobile, have great range and does AoE, so even if it just gets one volley on Mutalisks, can inflict significant damage.
|
On December 08 2010 10:17 charlesatan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 09:52 Raiznhell wrote:
the change has been lifted on the infestor but i still don't get why zergs like artosis and idra think that hydras arent adequate anti-air without a freeze/slowing spell.
Thats very similar to TvZ mutas where terran has no way of trapping them and all zergs have to do is fly around with the mutas never letting them die until you weaken the T enough or prevent him from expanding enough in order to 1a baneling it's what Nestea has been doing for the past 2 GSLs...
The speed of Phoenixes (remember they're faster than Mutalisks) isn't comparable. Hydralisks can defend against Phoenixes but they have to be in the area that the Phoenixes are attacking. Once they're off creep, they're extremely slow. So Zerg is essentially trapped in their base. A unit that would do well against the Phoenix are Queens due to its range, but in this case, the Phoenixes will obviously just lift the Queen then kill it, and doesn't answer the "moving out" problem. Terrans can handle Mutas because Marines have Stim. Mutalisks are still faster but some will still be caught with Stimmed Marines. Thors, while immobile, have great range and does AoE, so even if it just gets one volley on Mutalisks, can inflict significant damage.
Just a point on the marines. Marines are still able to be used outside of Anti-air. Hydras are countered by the Terran race and P past gateway units. So they basically slow ass anti air that can't be used outside of that function the majority of the time.
|
my biggest concern with the show lately has been its length. there will probably be a lot that disagree with me on this forum, but i think there many others out there that would appreciate shorter episodes. I think your viewers will rise with episodes 2 hours or less. Less is more sometimes, just like how your favorite tv shows never fulfill your fix, but you still never miss an episode.
other then that, i agree with the others on adding a terran. someone that is not too nice and will argue with incontrol and artosis/idra would be good. additionally if he was from a different clan (other than EG or liquid) that would be great.
|
On December 08 2010 10:30 Strut wrote:
my biggest concern with the show lately has been its length. there will probably be a lot that disagree with me on this forum, but i think there many others out there that would appreciate shorter episodes. I think your viewers will rise with episodes 2 hours or less. Less is more sometimes, just like how your favorite tv shows never fulfill your fix, but you still never miss an episode.
other then that, i agree with the others on adding a terran. someone that is not too nice and will argue with incontrol and artosis/idra would be good. additionally if he was from a different clan (other than EG or liquid) that would be great.
i suggest ROOTqxc. or ROOTdrewbie. I know both contribute a lot to community. my vote goes to qxc.
EDIT:
After reading a few more pages. I noticed mention of PainUser. TOTALLY forgot about him. DEF. think he should be brought on again.
|
Its passionate people discussing a topic they are all passionate about. This happens. We need to stop putting these top players on these God-like pedestal and realize they are human......humans who just so happen to be AMAZING players.
|
I really dont have an issue with the episode length, I just download it on itunes and listen to it during class (1h 45m). The episode length is perfect 
|
On December 08 2010 10:16 Mintastic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 09:26 IdrA wrote:
the difference between tl debates and us making predictions and complaints based on future patches is that most of us play this game a ton and have a really good understanding of it. obviously everything was said with the catch that all changes being discussed would be implemented, and that in mind our discussion was perfectly reasonable. theres a difference between a tl newbie saying oh my GOD fungal doesnt hit air battlecruisers are going to be overpowered now and saying that the mobility of phoenixs is going to cause zerg a lot of problems now.
as for complaints of the 'we play on korea' argument, we started by pointing out gameplay situations where having a phoenix or 2 faster would be really powerful, how it would nullify muta builds, how hydras arent adequate anti air without a freeze/slow spell, etc. we only started referencing the korean pvz style, including its use in gsl games, when the discussion turned to theorycrafting vs reality.
and anyone who thinks inc is now mortal enemies with me and artosis is fucking retarded. we're all really good friends who are really passionate about the game and enjoy arguing. believe it or not friends can call each other idiots without it being the end of the world. How do you feel about the patch now that Blizzard is taking back some of the changes? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174896
They pretty much said on the podcast that any of the changes by themselves could be dealt with sans Fungal, but it was Fungal + Phoenix that would be insane.
|
On December 08 2010 10:38 SiCkO_ wrote:I really dont have an issue with the episode length, I just download it on itunes and listen to it during class (1h 45m). The episode length is perfect
Exactly! I can't believe there are people who actually want less SotG. WTF?
|
It could be longer, something like 4 hours... It would cover half a day of boring work! I laughed my ass off with the last episode, keep it up guys <3
|
I agree with everything that IdrA said ...
With the caveat that just because someone has more or less experience doesn't automatically validate or invalidate their argument.
It's not relevant in this specific instance if you ever end up having to hire a contractor or consultant, trust me, it's true.
|
I love the insane length of the show.
JP, have you ever approached anyone to sponsor the show? Has the length ever been an issue from a business perspective?
|
On December 08 2010 10:47 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 10:38 SiCkO_ wrote:I really dont have an issue with the episode length, I just download it on itunes and listen to it during class (1h 45m). The episode length is perfect Exactly! I can't believe there are people who actually want less SotG. WTF?
this is something the more fanatic fans have an issue to understand. when the show is too long then some of your audience starts to get less interested, bored. to keep everyone excited, you shorten the episode. the diehard fans will continue to listen even with their mutterings, but meanwhile the show would attract more people. I guess it really depends what JP and the other hosts want. if they want to increase viewership and have this podcast grow.. then it would be a wise choice imo.
|
I also love the length of the show. You could maybe make a shorter version by cutting out certain parts, but I really hope they keep the length where it's at because it feels natural at this length, you guys are never in a hurry and no time-constraint ever really gets in the way of a discussion.
|
On December 08 2010 10:59 Strut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 10:47 KevinIX wrote:On December 08 2010 10:38 SiCkO_ wrote:I really dont have an issue with the episode length, I just download it on itunes and listen to it during class (1h 45m). The episode length is perfect Exactly! I can't believe there are people who actually want less SotG. WTF? this is something the more fanatic fans have an issue to understand. when the show is too long then some of your audience starts to get less interested, bored. to keep everyone excited, you shorten the episode. the diehard fans will continue to listen even with their mutterings, but meanwhile the show would attract more people. I guess it really depends what JP and the other hosts want. if they want to increase viewership and have this podcast grow.. then it would be a wise choice imo.
I don't know, it's debatable. I think the lack of constraints, in terms of length and content and the ability to broadcast whenever you want, is what makes podcasts unique as medium and more flexible than, say, a video stream.
Podcasts inherently aren't meant for mainstream appeal. It would cool if JP branched out into a vodcast for wider viewership, but I'd still listen to this podcast.
I imagine part of the appeal for the guests is that they can be casual, don't have to prepare too much, and have the opportunity to answer challenging questions thoroughly, instead of giving stock answers to everything.
Yeah though, I would love to hear from the hosts/guests if they have a problem with the length.
|
On December 08 2010 10:59 Strut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 10:47 KevinIX wrote:On December 08 2010 10:38 SiCkO_ wrote:I really dont have an issue with the episode length, I just download it on itunes and listen to it during class (1h 45m). The episode length is perfect Exactly! I can't believe there are people who actually want less SotG. WTF? this is something the more fanatic fans have an issue to understand. when the show is too long then some of your audience starts to get less interested, bored. to keep everyone excited, you shorten the episode. the diehard fans will continue to listen even with their mutterings, but meanwhile the show would attract more people. I guess it really depends what JP and the other hosts want. if they want to increase viewership and have this podcast grow.. then it would be a wise choice imo.
I don't think I'm a "fanatic" fan and I like the long shows. 3 hours a week really isn't too much. Sometimes I'll listen to the podcast over a couple of days instead of all at once.
Even if the show is shortened, I think the content of the show will still be for the more serious fans and casual fans probably wouldn't be that interested anyway.
Maybe we could have 2 an hour and a half shows a week  j/k
|
I'm also sick of the "we play on korea so we know better" argument. Geoff has coached so many people in all three of the matchups, as well as having played on both servers. I hate it when IdrA and Artosis try to speak down to him using the fact they live in korea as proof that their argument is correct.
FYI
Just because a strategy is new and successful doesn't mean it's strong. The amount of times I've heard IdrA and Artosis say "this is a really new build on the korean servers" to never hear of this build again is laughable. Maybe only use established builds to support your argument
GEOFF HWAITIIIIIING
*Edit* JP, Tyler, Day[9] and Geoff are just awesome! Just wanted to say that...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
